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Old 2011-01-13, 13:24   Link #7601
Bastion_Arcion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I know, and it's the same for anyone who works a night-shift. However, Nagi does her things (or is supposed to, and usually does) during the day.
Triple Shifter. One of the examples of the trope is Kekkaishi's Yoshimori, who often falls asleep during classes and is often seen in the morning drinking coffee-flavored milk.

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Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
Well, superhuman abilities apart, Hayate could very well go lone navigator style (you know, those guys (or gals) who go across the Atlantic or around the Globe, alone in a sailboat, and who for weeks only sleep in 15 min naps), with his established 1 hour of sleep, 6 or so 15 min naps are manageable I think.
Um, I think the body works sleep in 1.5 hour segments, so anything shorter than that doesn't cut it in anything but the short-term. The people who 'lone navigate' long distances probably prepare by sleeping a lot and then 'cool down' by sleeping a lot, so that their body returns to normal sleep functioning.

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Originally Posted by leoblack9 View Post
And look at her grown form now, really. If she's sleeping like that since 10 years ago then I suggest that Hina would sleep more often.
>.< Have you completely missed the fact that the growth factor is hereditary, probably for both of them, though there's no comparison for Athena (yet).
I don't think there's ever been anything proven that sleep even does anything to growth, except lets you live long enough to grow fully.
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Old 2011-01-13, 14:38   Link #7602
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Um, I think the body works sleep in 1.5 hour segments, so anything shorter than that doesn't cut it in anything but the short-term. The people who 'lone navigate' long distances probably prepare by sleeping a lot and then 'cool down' by sleeping a lot, so that their body returns to normal sleep functioning.
The body follows the circadian rhythm, and I don't think there is any "1.5 segment" in sleeping that allows the body to regulate properly. The only kind of sleeping "segments" I heard of before is the five stages of sleep, of which shifting back and forth while a person is sleeping. As I mentioned before, since our body follow the 24-hours rhythm, it will unconsciously try to get those missing hours back if we are lack of sleep which is a similar to the "cool down" period you mentioned. However, the preparation of "a lot" (more than 1 day) of sleep would not work and would not help people to stay awake since the body follows the circadian rhythm.

If people are really lack of sleep, it is a natural occurrence that their bodies would unconsciously go to sleep (without them realizing it) for about 5-10 seconds to help maintaining its function.

Studies have been done on the maximum hours a person can stay awake. I don't remember the exact number, but I believe that they stay awake for more than 10 days straight, and it took them about 1 day (or less) of sleep for their body to function normally again.

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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
I don't think there's ever been anything proven that sleep even does anything to growth, except lets you live long enough to grow fully.
Well, the growth hormones only secrete during the sleeping period.

Last edited by zodanhko; 2011-01-13 at 14:52.
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Old 2011-01-13, 15:04   Link #7603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
The body follows the circadian rhythm, and I don't think there is any "1.5 segment" in sleeping that allows the body to regulate properly. The only kind of sleeping "segments" I heard of before is the five stages of sleep, of which shifting back and forth while a person is sleeping. As I mentioned before, since our body follow the 24-hours rhythm, it will unconsciously try to get those missing hours back if we are lack of sleep which is a similar to the "cool down" period you mentioned. However, the preparation of "a lot" (more than 1 day) of sleep would not work and would not help people to stay awake since the body follows the circadian rhythm.

If people are really lack of sleep, it is a natural occurrence that their bodies would unconsciously go to sleep (without them realizing it) for about 5-10 seconds to help maintaining its function.

Studies have been done on the maximum hours a person can stay awake. I don't remember the exact number, but I believe that they stay awake for more than 10 days straight, and it took them about 1 day of sleep for their body to function normally again.
I believe I heard it from a teacher (theater department), so it doesn't hold a lot of water anyway.
And the preparation sleep does help, many within theater crews know that they're going to be working late and thus miss out on sleep time, so sleeping beforehand helps out functioning. It has to be combined with decent sleep afterwords to be effective though.
Also, it's a few extra hours of sleep for the days in advance, not a single block of time dedicated to rest (which the body does need in addition)

A few seconds isn't even long enough for the body to start anything, so falling asleep for short periods of time would do nothing except tell the person that they need to take a real sleep time, I do so constantly, and actually, it makes me feel worse, not better.

Also, Hinagiku sleeps for plenty long to allow the growth process to happen, sleeping more would not affect it.
Especially where she believes she needs the growth.
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Old 2011-01-13, 15:41   Link #7604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
I believe I heard it from a teacher (theater department), so it doesn't hold a lot of water anyway.
And the preparation sleep does help, many within theater crews know that they're going to be working late and thus miss out on sleep time, so sleeping beforehand helps out functioning. It has to be combined with decent sleep afterwords to be effective though.
Also, it's a few extra hours of sleep for the days in advance, not a single block of time dedicated to rest (which the body does need in addition)
The preparation for sleep only works for one day (the next day), not for the next two days or for a period of time like for the journey.

Edit: When I said, " it would not work and would not help you stay awake" from the paragraph above, I was referring to the journey.
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
A few seconds isn't even long enough for the body to start anything, so falling asleep for short periods of time would do nothing except tell the person that they need to take a real sleep time, I do so constantly, and actually, it makes me feel worse, not better.
Those 10 seconds of unconsciously sleep (the body voluntarily generates despise the person's will) will help the body to a degree, but not much. Of course, due to the great amount of sleep deprivation, those people (in the experiment) still had hallucinations and such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Also, Hinagiku sleeps for plenty long to allow the growth process to happen, sleeping more would not affect it.
Especially where she believes she needs the growth.
I certainly agreed with you growth that is hereditary. I was just stating a relationship between growth and sleep.

Last edited by zodanhko; 2011-01-13 at 16:13.
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Old 2011-01-13, 16:10   Link #7605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
The preparation for sleep only works for one day (the next day), not for the next two days or for a period of time like for the journey.
Try it.
I use it constantly, and several days do make a difference, though it may not be noticeable the first time it's done, the extra sleep does improve functioning over a period of time.

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Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Those 10 seconds of unconsciously sleep (the body voluntarily generates despise the person's will) will help the body to a degree, but not much. Of course, due to the great amount of sleep deprivation, those people (in the experiment) still had hallucinations and such.
Same as above, the body needs the sustained rest to function. The few seconds the body may involuntary enter isn't even long enough to enter the second level of sleep, which is where the benefit happens. Which is why snoring is bad for you, it doesn't allow anything more than the first level of sleep, as the body has to wake up partially, preventing any actual sleep from happening.

As an aside, are we even considering what started this path anymore? Whether Nagi's sleep pattern is healthy?
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Old 2011-01-13, 16:30   Link #7606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Try it.
I use it constantly, and several days do make a difference, though it may not be noticeable the first time it's done, the extra sleep does improve functioning over a period of time.
Like Used mentioned before, sleeping extra hours over a period of time will deteriorate your health (it's a known fact), and it won't be effective for staying awake the next couple of days. And, it is very unlikely (or impossible) for someone to be able to sleep for "several days" straight unless he/she is unconscious. Our body will wake up sometimes during the day because it follows the circadian rhythm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Same as above, the body needs the sustained rest to function. The few seconds the body may involuntary enter isn't even long enough to enter the second level of sleep, which is where the benefit happens. Which is why snoring is bad for you, it doesn't allow anything more than the first level of sleep, as the body has to wake up partially, preventing any actual sleep from happening.
The 10 seconds (about) involuntary resting by the body/mind (when a person's really lacking sleep) is a fact I'm taking from my psychology class.

Last edited by zodanhko; 2011-01-13 at 16:45.
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Old 2011-01-13, 16:46   Link #7607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
The 10 seconds (about) voluntary resting by the body/mind (when a person's really lacking sleep) is a fact I'm taking from my psychology class.
And my statement is taken from actual talking (second-hand) with scientists who deal with this stuff, and also personal experience. Several seconds of sleep may allow the person to 'wake up' and continue to function for the short-term, but provides no lasting benefit until proper sleep is obtained.
There is multiple instances where what is taught is incorrect, in many facets of education. This is possibly a reason for most textbooks to have to put out a new addition, to correct misconceptions.
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Old 2011-01-13, 16:49   Link #7608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
And my statement is taken from actual talking (second-hand) with scientists who deal with this stuff, and also personal experience. Several seconds of sleep may allow the person to 'wake up' and continue to function for the short-term, but provides no lasting benefit until proper sleep is obtained.
There is multiple instances where what is taught is incorrect, in many facets of education. This is possibly a reason for most textbooks to have to put out a new addition, to correct misconceptions.
That's what I was trying to get cross over to you.

The mind will be forced into the state of unconscious for some seconds (without you realizing it) if you are lack of sleep.
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Old 2011-01-13, 21:47   Link #7609
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I'm waiting for the part where you two going back and forth about circadian rhythms or whatever has any actual applicability to a fictional manga series.

....

Nope, still waiting.

Anyway, let's get back to discussing the actual chapter. I wonder when they're gonna get back to the doujin plot....
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Old 2011-01-13, 21:48   Link #7610
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Anyway, let's get back to discussing the actual chapter. I wonder when they're gonna get back to the doujin plot....
Hopefully not for a while. Those were a horridly boring few months.
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Old 2011-01-14, 00:51   Link #7611
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I'm waiting for the part where you two going back and forth about circadian rhythms or whatever has any actual applicability to a fictional manga series.
You do realize that this conversation started because of something that was related to the manga, and I even lampshaded that we'd gone off the path.
Quote:
As an aside, are we even considering what started this path anymore? Whether Nagi's sleep pattern is healthy?
Plus the statement I'd made about the characters being role models was probably the last we'd mentioned about it.

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Originally Posted by GlassesLady View Post
Anyway, let's get back to discussing the actual chapter. I wonder when they're gonna get back to the doujin plot....
Hopefully soon, I'm surprised this plotline has been allowed to go so long. I would have thought we'd have gotten back to the doujin plot when the year (real time) started.
Although this set-up does allow the romance side of the story to take center stage, it still feels surreal.
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Old 2011-01-14, 01:10   Link #7612
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I too hope the doujin thread is picked up soon, or (assuming they're related) at least tied in with with Ms. Tennos's latest package of earth-shattering woe and misfortune. Hata has a story to tell, but even considering his usual glacial pace, developing a new thread and then interrupting it with another thread without tying them together before long -- well, it doesn't strike me as the best way to tell a story. Then again, this isn't Shakespeare (as my allusion to the world of poetry reminded me) . . .

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Old 2011-01-14, 01:24   Link #7613
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To be honest, the only thing I can care about the dōjinshi story is Luca. In my opinion, the rest was rather boring.

As for why the apparent change in storyline. Well, in addition to the fact that Athena scored a #2 in the popularity contest, and Hina, once again, #1 belongs to her, I can see how Athena fit into this. After all, Yozora was already using magic, we had thing whole thing about the 28th, and I doubt Luca was added there just to be Nagi's rival. All of this smells like plot, and it seems that, whenever there's plot, there's Athena.
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Old 2011-01-14, 01:37   Link #7614
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Well, in addition to the fact that Athena scored a #2 in the popularity contest, and Hina, once again, #1 . . .
A small part of me hopes that the storytelling wasn't dictated by such things -- but then again, who am I kidding? Whatever, if the threads are indeed related, Hata really should tie them together before too long.
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Old 2011-01-14, 02:51   Link #7615
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Originally Posted by GlassesLady View Post
has any actual applicability to a fictional manga series..
I was only trying to lay some information regarding sleeping that I thought was inaccurate and nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
To be honest, the only thing I can care about the dōjinshi story is Luca. In my opinion, the rest was rather boring.
Same here. I don't use the word cute too often to describe a character, but I must say Luca deserves it with her behavior/personality.
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Old 2011-01-14, 04:31   Link #7616
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I remember that someone (forgot who) wrote in his blog that c303 didn't offer much for Hina shippers. I don't think that I agree here, the Hina shipper in me was actually delighted about this chapter.

Why?

Because in this chapter, we finally see Hina and Hayate deal with each other nicely. No pressure, no crisis, no drama, and lookie there - things work out perfectly. Hayate is very attentive (in his professional work), Hina is surprised and appreciative. No blushing, yelling, and hitting Hayate for a change. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have these harmless fuzzies than the annoying pseudo-drama based on stupidity.

One more side-remark: If Hata truly intended to give Nagi some growth and maturity, then this chapter was a clear relapse ^_^; ... yes, it's good for some chuckles, but at THAT rate, she's never really going to grow up.
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Old 2011-01-14, 04:56   Link #7617
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That's indeed true. And, seriously, this current arc has made me realise Nagi would work much better as a side character. I mean, she doesn't work as a lead in terms of comedy (I mean, her scenes can be funny, but not to lead a comedy manga, in my opinion), she doesn't work as a lead in terms of romance either - other characters have been developed far more than her. In fact, as I've mentioned it several times in the past, it's even debatable whether she's received any romantic development at all, and I believe she's received none. And as far as plot is concerned, she doesn't work as a lead in that. So far, that seems to be Athena's area.

Of course, there's still the butler and his master theme; that has indeed got developed throughout the series, and Nagi has actually matured. But, has she got to have female lead status for that? I mean, she could definitely count as a main character considering the manga's main theme, but I don't think she works as the lead.

Naturally, this is just my opinion.
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Old 2011-01-14, 09:11   Link #7618
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Sigh...

Quote:
Anyway, let's get back to discussing the actual chapter. I wonder when they're gonna get back to the doujin plot....
Relatively soon, I imagine. This chapter felt like an easy way for Hata to quickly show-case the new residents so that he can get back to the plot with minimal interruption. (And also a nice breather from the longer story arcs.)

Also, with Alice not having Athena's memories and confirmed long term status (3 months) she's much less of a plot driver right now then everyone was expecting at first. She'll tie into the overall plot, undoubtedly, but she's not so critical that I see a lot of stories surrounding her right now. (She did get kind of left out of 303 though, so maybe the next chapter will be about her.)

On the other hand, we've got a good number of days to get through before catching up with the flash forward, so I'd expect plenty of diversions between bursts of Nagi-centric plot/character development.

Hmmm...There should still be at least one room available, so it's not impossible that Luca moves in at some point. Her and Nagi have to start interacting eventually, after all.

Last edited by madmac; 2011-01-14 at 09:23.
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Old 2011-01-14, 12:18   Link #7619
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Hmmm...There should still be at least one room available, so it's not impossible that Luca moves in at some point. Her and Nagi have to start interacting eventually, after all.
If I remember correctly, it looked at one point like Chiharu was planning to get Luca a room in the apartment. Something about helping her pay for it, I think....
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Old 2011-01-14, 12:27   Link #7620
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Athena's memory lost case is ambiguously presented. She seems to be well aware of who Hayate and Aiki are (which could be the memories at least to EotW arc time period), but she also seems to realize that her plight with Hayate has been solved which is a recent memory of Athena Tennousu. It seems to me that a particular part of her memories was intentionally wipe out.

I mean, what was she referring to when she said something like to "regain the memories of Athena Tennous?" What "memories" was she speaking of? How was losing her memories affect her power, vice versa? It would be nice her if the memories she was referring to are of her origin which could be relating to her lost of power. I'm dying to know more about Athena's background.

And, I'm curious of who "that person" is that told Athena about the power spot location.

I guess I would have to wait for the answers until the arc with Luca is finished, although I don't mind seeing more Luca.
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