AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Hayate no Gotoku

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-01-24, 21:23   Link #7661
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
I don't think Maria is tsundere in the very least. In my opinion, she was just angry at Hayate being so bloody dense.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-24, 21:34   Link #7662
Bastion_Arcion
*boot to the head*
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: existence
Send a message via AIM to Bastion_Arcion Send a message via MSN to Bastion_Arcion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I don't think Maria is tsundere in the very least. In my opinion, she was just angry at Hayate being so bloody dense.
Maria has shown tsundere traits before, she just lampshades them in this chapter, and did the same in the Valentine's Day/White Day(?) extra (which I think was done long after White Day, but that's what it was about).
I think Horo of Spice and Wolf does the 'not tsundere, but tease her love interest' better anyways.
__________________
Arcion's is open for business. How would you like your hare-brained scheme?

Would people quit throwing my faith in humanity being intelligent a shovel?
... Apparently there are now people in existence who are unable to use a shovel.

Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.
Bastion_Arcion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-24, 21:42   Link #7663
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Well, Horo is hundreds of years old and she has had experiences on relationships. So, I think it's obvious she won't show any tsundere traits, when being tsundere is basically a sign of (emotional) immaturity.

Anyhow, what Maria did in the Valentine's chapter, while it was definitely shyness, I don't think it could be called tsun, since she wasn't been particularly cold to Hayate. But well, the definitions of tsundere nowadays are so weird, that mere shyness may count as a form of being tsundere. I, honestly, wouldn't know.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-24, 21:59   Link #7664
Bastion_Arcion
*boot to the head*
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: existence
Send a message via AIM to Bastion_Arcion Send a message via MSN to Bastion_Arcion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Well, Horo is hundreds of years old and she has had experiences on relationships. So, I think it's obvious she won't show any tsundere traits, when being tsundere is basically a sign of (emotional) immaturity.

Anyhow, what Maria did in the Valentine's chapter, while it was definitely shyness, I don't think it could be called tsun, since she wasn't been particularly cold to Hayate. But well, the definitions of tsundere nowadays are so weird, that mere shyness may count as a form of being tsundere. I, honestly, wouldn't know.
In the extra, Maria was clearly tsundere, she even made fun of it. It wasn't the chapter on it, which seems to be what you're thinking of. When she was thinking of giving either cookies or chocolate to Hayate is the piece I'm talking about. She was acting out the 'tsun' part of it as well, while you seem to be thinking of an event of the 'dere'.

I will argue with you on Tsundere's being emotionally immature. There are plenty of examples of emotionally mature tsunderes even in anime alone. It's a personality trait, not tied to maturity. Even continuing when the related relationship is complete at times.
I doubt Hinagiku will ever outgrow her tsundereness, since it's tied to her shorttank(t), rather than a relationship. She's probably one of the most emotionally mature characters in the whole story.
__________________
Arcion's is open for business. How would you like your hare-brained scheme?

Would people quit throwing my faith in humanity being intelligent a shovel?
... Apparently there are now people in existence who are unable to use a shovel.

Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.
Bastion_Arcion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-24, 22:16   Link #7665
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
In the extra, Maria was clearly tsundere, she even made fun of it. It wasn't the chapter on it, which seems to be what you're thinking of. When she was thinking of giving either cookies or chocolate to Hayate is the piece I'm talking about. She was acting out the 'tsun' part of it as well, while you seem to be thinking of an event of the 'dere'.
I'm sorry, but I do not seem able to find this chapter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
I will argue with you on Tsundere's being emotionally immature. There are plenty of examples of emotionally mature tsunderes even in anime alone. It's a personality trait, not tied to maturity. Even continuing when the related relationship is complete at times.
I'm speaking about my own experience watching anime. I'm yet to see a single tsundere who isn't a teenager/young adult without experience in relationships.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-24, 22:21   Link #7666
Bastion_Arcion
*boot to the head*
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: existence
Send a message via AIM to Bastion_Arcion Send a message via MSN to Bastion_Arcion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I'm sorry, but I do not seem able to find this chapter.
I'm not sure where it is, but it did occur much later than the actual event. If anyone else knows where it is, help in locating it is appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I'm speaking about my own experience watching anime. I'm yet to see a single tsundere who isn't a teenager/young adult without experience in relationships.
Check out the trope page, there are several emotionally mature tsundere's listed there, I'm sure of it.
__________________
Arcion's is open for business. How would you like your hare-brained scheme?

Would people quit throwing my faith in humanity being intelligent a shovel?
... Apparently there are now people in existence who are unable to use a shovel.

Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.
Bastion_Arcion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-24, 22:45   Link #7667
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
There were a few, and that's why I said I wouldn't find it odd considering the vast definitions tsundere has nowadays. But, well, I guess it's my bad for trying to define such a broad term.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-25, 01:12   Link #7668
Bastion_Arcion
*boot to the head*
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: existence
Send a message via AIM to Bastion_Arcion Send a message via MSN to Bastion_Arcion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
There were a few, and that's why I said I wouldn't find it odd considering the vast definitions tsundere has nowadays. But, well, I guess it's my bad for trying to define such a broad term.
Considering before reading the definition, I didn't even think Hinagiku fit the bill of tsundere, since it isn't Hayate who triggers the switch, though he's often given the button and forced to push it, I think you might just have to accept that it has a broader definition.

As opposed to some of the other tropes, this is given a broader view than is sometimes thought of.
__________________
Arcion's is open for business. How would you like your hare-brained scheme?

Would people quit throwing my faith in humanity being intelligent a shovel?
... Apparently there are now people in existence who are unable to use a shovel.

Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.
Bastion_Arcion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-25, 05:02   Link #7669
mitsuganae
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
I doubt Hinagiku will ever outgrow her tsundereness, since it's tied to her shorttank(t), rather than a relationship. She's probably one of the most emotionally mature characters in the whole story.
I might agree with you if it weren't for the frequency of her internal whining over her "love" interest. At least someone like, say, Ayumu -- who at first glance might be considered a less mature character -- doesn't (w)angst about it as much. Taking such things in stride -- and even with a certain amount of grace -- is a sign of maturity, IMHO, and is one of the reasons why, as a character, I prefer Ayumu over Katsura the younger.

Lest anyone get the wrong idea, I do not ship Ayumu, or anyone. Shipping isn't even one of the reasons why I read this manga.

Last edited by mitsuganae; 2011-01-25 at 09:57.
mitsuganae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-25, 07:02   Link #7670
madmac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
For what it's worth, I don't consider Maria remotely tsundere either. She was pretty obviously teasing Hayate last chapter as well. The White Day story you're talking about is in Volume 14 and doesn't "lampshade" anything. The entire punchline is Hayate walks in at a bad time and decides Maria must be tsundere when she clearly isn't.

Calling Maria "tsundere" makes even less sense considering she isn't even in love with Hayate or anyone else. Maria expects to be treated as a (desirable) woman, and is quite sensitive to being ignored and slightly paranoid about coming off as "easy" but she doesn't particularly have feelings for Hayate. It's one of the things I like most about Maria, along with her casually poking fun at Hayate whenever he tries to flatter her too much.

As for Hina, "emotionally mature" is not how I'd describe her at all. Hina's childish tastes and inclinations are called out constantly by other characters in the manga, to the point that I consider the basis of her personality as being the contrast between her "cool" persona and her inner girlishness. Heck, just look at Hina's dreams, which are always inherently silly and massively unrealistic and festooned with flowers and candy and hilariously bad shojo writing. It's a huge difference from Ayumu's dreams which are realistic to the point where she doesn't even get any action when she's sleeping.

Quote:
Lest anyone get the wrong idea, I do not ship Ayumu, or anyone. Shipping isn't even one of the reasons why I read this manga.
Heh. No reason to get so defensive. No one ships Ayumu anyways, it's kind of sad...

Last edited by madmac; 2011-01-25 at 07:55.
madmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-25, 07:42   Link #7671
mitsuganae
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by madmac View Post
Heh. No reason to get so defensive. No one ships Ayumu anyways, it's kind of sad...
Consider it a pre-emptive strike against all the (IMHO silly) shipping stuff that goes on around here. That being said, surely there must be a few Ayumu shippers in this subforum? I urge them to raise their hands and post more often. At the very least, it would make a refreshing change from all the Hinagiku and Athena worshipping (pun intended).

Last edited by mitsuganae; 2011-01-25 at 08:03.
mitsuganae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-25, 08:06   Link #7672
madmac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Quote:
That being said, surely there must be a few Ayumu shippers in this subforum? I urge them to raise their hands and post more often. At the very least, it would make a refrehing change from all the Hinagiku and Athena worshipping (pun intended).
I've honestly never met one. I'll be pleasantly surprised if anyone posts an affirmative, though.


Getting back to Maria for a bit...

Really, for all that it's been obscured and watered down over time, the original set-up of this series is a love triangle. Nagi likes Hayate, Hayate likes Maria, Maria doesn't exactly dislike Hayate but loves Nagi more and tries to push him towards her. The original oneshot is a lot less subtle about the whole thing, partly because it never created a "misunderstanding" between Hayate and Nagi.

Of course, the series has drifted considerably since then, and Maria's been so heavily underused lately that it's always something of a shock when she gets a little push like last chapter, or her placement in Chapter 239. In the end though, I expect she'll be important to the plot in more the one respect, no matter how out of place it might seem for her now.
madmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-25, 08:18   Link #7673
mitsuganae
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by madmac View Post
In the end though, I expect she'll be important to the plot in more the one respect, no matter how out of place it might seem for her now.
I do hope you're right. I suspect she has a part to play when the central mystery unravels (i.e. the business with the stones, Mikado, etc.).
mitsuganae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-25, 13:28   Link #7674
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by madmac View Post
No one ships Ayumu anyways, it's kind of sad...
I don't know what you mean by shipper, but I'd be happy with an Ayumu end.
Personally, usually, whenever I expect a particular end-girl, I do so because of my expectations on how the plot would develop if one girl receives focus. Back in the day I used to "ship" Hina, because I thought the story would have an interesting development if she received a more central focus. However, she received quite some decent amount of focus, and yet her development failed to impress me, and thus I lost interest. I always used to think Maria would be an interesting option, be she always go side-lined and is mostly a gag-character now. After that I thought Sakuya may be interesting, and I got to read that side story which I liked a lot. Finally, Athena showed up and I found her terribly interesting, and I thought that if she became more central the plot would develop in a fashion I'd like even more - especially considering I had lost a lot of interest in this manga before the EotW arc. So far, Athena's involvement in this manga hasn't failed to impress me and, in fact, has fuelled my interest in this manga.

As for Ayumu, I've personally loved her entire development. It's rather funny considering I tend to dislike the "normal" girls in any of these type of stories. In fact, I'd even say I tend to have a bias against them, yet I love Ayumu so much. I think she's a good example of what character development should be, and I think her involvement in the plot has been good enough and I've enjoyed the story every single time she's received focus. So, yeah, even if Athena is my favourite character and my main choice of a romantic ending, I'd be more than happy with an Ayumu end. In fact, in some aspects, I'd probably like it better than an Athena end.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-25, 13:29   Link #7675
Bastion_Arcion
*boot to the head*
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: existence
Send a message via AIM to Bastion_Arcion Send a message via MSN to Bastion_Arcion
Quote:
Originally Posted by madmac View Post
I've honestly never met one. I'll be pleasantly surprised if anyone posts an affirmative, though.
Then I'll surprise you, given that a relationship with Ayumu is even given credence by Hayate in the story. Ayumu is actually my third choice of the final relationship, and actually, if I was going to make my primary wish Hayate's second relationship in my fanfiction, Ayumu would be the first.
Hinagiku and Nagi finish out the top three by the way.

And just to make it fully clear, I don't 'worship' Hinagiku or Athena either. They're probably my sixth and seventh favorite characters in the story. If I chose to 'worship' any of the characters of the story, it would be Nishizawa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madmac View Post
Getting back to Maria for a bit...

Really, for all that it's been obscured and watered down over time, the original set-up of this series is a love triangle. Nagi likes Hayate, Hayate likes Maria, Maria doesn't exactly dislike Hayate but loves Nagi more and tries to push him towards her. The original oneshot is a lot less subtle about the whole thing, partly because it never created a "misunderstanding" between Hayate and Nagi.

Of course, the series has drifted considerably since then, and Maria's been so heavily underused lately that it's always something of a shock when she gets a little push like last chapter, or her placement in Chapter 239. In the end though, I expect she'll be important to the plot in more the one respect, no matter how out of place it might seem for her now.
Maria is a member of the harem, just like most of the other girls in the story, she's just downplaying her relationship because of her devotion to Nagi, and thus pushing Nagi more than herself. She has a clear fondness for Hayate, and the original dynamic seemed to be Maria acting as mother and Hayate acting as father to Nagi.
The only one who's actually said to have liked Hayate and has truly given up is Isumi, and even that's questionable, since it's been a while since she had a chance to interact with him while the world's not at stake.
That's really where most of the girls stand with their relationship.

I agree with Ayumu acting more mature than most of the other girls, but rather than call that 'emotional maturity', she did stay at home when Hayate served as her (family's) butler under the pretense of being sick and states that she wished she could go on a date with Hayate, I would call it genre-savvy(t) because of the fact that she full-heartedly embraces the tropes she's part of and plays them out in an effort to push Hinagiku toward confessing.

Hinagiku on the other hand, is able to separate herself and devote herself to her work as Student Council President, a clearly adult-level mentality ability.
Also, Hayate likes the 'emotionally mature' females and while he only seems to realize his physical attraction to Maria and undefined attraction to Athena, it's pretty clear that the emotionally mature Hinagiku is at the top of his list, with Nagi and Nishizawa also showing signs of it, and Hayate openly being attracted to them as well.
__________________
Arcion's is open for business. How would you like your hare-brained scheme?

Would people quit throwing my faith in humanity being intelligent a shovel?
... Apparently there are now people in existence who are unable to use a shovel.

Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.

Last edited by Bastion_Arcion; 2011-01-25 at 16:16.
Bastion_Arcion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-25, 21:36   Link #7676
GlassesLady
dat apple
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: I'm aliens
So in conclusion, Hayate's birthday party will be forgotten in favour of Yukiji's. And Hayate will cry.

[[/late]]
__________________
Let me show you my Pokemans.

My Pokemans; let me show you them.
GlassesLady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-25, 22:34   Link #7677
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
I don't think you can call Hina as being emotionally mature. In terms of emotions, she's probably the least mature of the characters, since even Nagi can sort out her own feelings and convey them normally.

Hina is definitely mature in terms of being responsible and general behaviour. But when it comes down to her own feelings and how to act on them, she's probably the least mature of the entire cast, and the one who has taken the most time to develop.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-25, 22:45   Link #7678
Bastion_Arcion
*boot to the head*
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: existence
Send a message via AIM to Bastion_Arcion Send a message via MSN to Bastion_Arcion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I don't think you can call Hina as being emotionally mature. In terms of emotions, she's probably the least mature of the characters, since even Nagi can sort out her own feelings and convey them normally.

Hina is definitely mature in terms of being responsible and general behaviour. But when it comes down to her own feelings and how to act on them, she's probably the least mature of the entire cast, and the one who has taken the most time to develop.
The only place Hina cannot sort out her feelings is those that resolve around Hayate and her love for him. She's pushed away any feelings of love of any sort before, because of her issues with her parents abandoning her. It's part of her growth as a character that she's now exploring them. It's that exploring and growth that makes her exactly the emotionally mature character she is.
Nagi never did that, she's still dealing with traits of her self-imposed hikkomori personality though, even falling back into them, while Hinagiku is not.
All of the characters have their own issues they're dealing with.
__________________
Arcion's is open for business. How would you like your hare-brained scheme?

Would people quit throwing my faith in humanity being intelligent a shovel?
... Apparently there are now people in existence who are unable to use a shovel.

Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.
Bastion_Arcion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-25, 23:02   Link #7679
mitsuganae
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I don't think you can call Hina as being emotionally mature. In terms of emotions, she's probably the least mature of the characters, since even Nagi can sort out her own feelings and convey them normally.

Hina is definitely mature in terms of being responsible and general behaviour. But when it comes down to her own feelings and how to act on them, she's probably the least mature of the entire cast, and the one who has taken the most time to develop.
Don't forget that Hinagiku needed to be snapped out of one of her countless mopey episodes and prodded into helping Hayate with his battle with the demon by Ayumu and -- of all people -- her sister. Definitely a great moment for Yukiji -- but if one needs a bottle fairy to escape the clutches of such silly things, well . . .
mitsuganae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-25, 23:12   Link #7680
Bastion_Arcion
*boot to the head*
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: existence
Send a message via AIM to Bastion_Arcion Send a message via MSN to Bastion_Arcion
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsuganae View Post
Don't forget that Hinagiku needed to be snapped out of one of her countless mopey episodes and prodded into helping Hayate with his battle with the demon by Ayumu and -- of all people -- her sister. Definitely a great moment for Yukiji -- but if one needs a bottle fairy to escape the clutches of such silly things, well . . .
Her sister didn't help at all with the mopey moment, Yukiji was talking about the real issue, the troubles with love, which she had dealt with, and had given up her childhood, and become the bottle fairy character she is, to make sure Hinagiku had. Ayumu didn't help either, Hina was still troubled when she left Hayate alone with Athena, which she chose to do all on her own.
__________________
Arcion's is open for business. How would you like your hare-brained scheme?

Would people quit throwing my faith in humanity being intelligent a shovel?
... Apparently there are now people in existence who are unable to use a shovel.

Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.
Bastion_Arcion is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
comedy, shounen

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:52.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.