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Old 2011-01-25, 23:35   Link #7681
mitsuganae
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I seriously doubt Katsura the younger would've came if she weren't prodded by Ayumu and Yukiji. Whatever. It's clear you're not going to change your thinking, so I'll just leave you to enjoy the company of a mopey girl who makes Hamlet look like a man of action.
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Old 2011-01-26, 00:05   Link #7682
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsuganae View Post
I seriously doubt Katsura the younger would've came if she weren't prodded by Ayumu and Yukiji. Whatever. It's clear you're not going to change your thinking, so I'll just leave you to enjoy the company of a mopey girl who makes Hamlet look like a man of action.
Well, given that it was Isumi's grandmother and the sword that actually caused her to act as she did to go help fight Midas, Yukiji and Ayumu only inspired her to react to the threat of the monsters which were terrorizing the party.

Hinagiku's mope is because of Hayate's expression of love, nothing which was said by anyone else until Hayate told her that Athena had rejected him changed anything about her emotions.
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Old 2011-01-26, 01:05   Link #7683
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
The only place Hina cannot sort out her feelings is those that resolve around Hayate and her love for him. She's pushed away any feelings of love of any sort before, because of her issues with her parents abandoning her. It's part of her growth as a character that she's now exploring them. It's that exploring and growth that makes her exactly the emotionally mature character she is.
Indeed, this is precisely why I'm saying is emotionally immature. She has spent a good amount of time trying to figure out her own feelings for Hayate, and much of it was self-denial. Then, once she accepted her own feelings, she hasn't found a way to convey them. Of course, at the beginning it was partially due to Ayumu telling her about her feelings for Hayate. So, Hina telling Ayumu about her feelings for Hayate as well, is a sign of her development and so was the time she told Hayate she liked him - but was muted by the passing train. But. aside from that, she's been stuck on whether she should confess or not, and once she decided she should, which came after much deliberation, she got the A-bomb. And then, even after Hayate told her he and Athena had nothing going between them any more, she hasn't taken her chances again.

Don't misunderstand me, Hina has definitely grown up. However, she remains immature when it comes down to her feelings. She has a hard time on deciding to confess, and she keeps delaying the subject. Naturally, we could say this is due to fear of being rejected and this is exacerbated by her parents leaving her. But, despite the reason, that's an issue she's got to deal with.

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Nagi never did that, she's still dealing with traits of her self-imposed hikkomori personality though, even falling back into them, while Hinagiku is not.
Of course, Nagi is still very immature. I was uniquely speaking about her being able to convey her feelings with relative ease. Of course, we could say it's much easier for Nagi, since she's under the impression that Hayate has proposed to her and that their feelings are mutual. But, either way, Nagi did start with a difficulty of expressing her feelings with Hayate, which she has managed to overcome over time, to the point in which she can express herself rather normally.
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Old 2011-01-26, 01:23   Link #7684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Don't misunderstand me, Hina has definitely grown up. However, she remains immature when it comes down to her feelings. She has a hard time on deciding to confess, and she keeps delaying the subject. Naturally, we could say this is due to fear of being rejected and this is exacerbated by her parents leaving her. But, despite the reason, that's an issue she's got to deal with.
The feelings of love, where she hasn't had time to mature, because of her fears, is the only emotional maturity issue Hinagiku has to deal with, all other emotions, reactions and such, she has shown to be very mature about. That was Yukiji's goal, but now Yukiji is realizing how fragile it has made her sister.

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Of course, Nagi is still very immature. I was uniquely speaking about her being able to convey her feelings with relative ease. Of course, we could say it's much easier for Nagi, since she's under the impression that Hayate has proposed to her and that their feelings are mutual. But, either way, Nagi did start with a difficulty of expressing her feelings with Hayate, which she has managed to overcome over time, to the point in which she can express herself rather normally.
Nagi cannot express her feelings normally, when she was embarrassed about Hayate seeing her in the bath, she tosses him out for three days, and then wishes he'd return quicker. When he 'rescues' her from the effects of the hot springs, she reacts in typical tsundere fashion. It's her first time encountering love to this scale as well, and thus just as emotionally immature as Hinagiku.

You must remember that the cast is made of teenagers, thus experiencing these things for the first time, and unsure of how to express these feelings. Hinagiku is getting the worst of it because she actually suppressed feeling love out of fear of being hurt, the others are only dealing with love better than she because they let themselves be open to them before, thus the differing reactions.
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Old 2011-01-26, 02:19   Link #7685
zodanhko
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I don't think one's past experience could be used to overlook one's immaturity. If someone is immature because of lack of experience, then he/she is still immature; likewise, if someone is mature due to having more experience, then he/she is deemed mature. Their past experience reflects upon their future behaviors and mental processes.

Hinagiku is definitely responsible and well-behave, but I don't think she befits the mentally mature status. She can maturely help others with their problems since she is competent, but she has yet prevailed in showing indications in dealing with her issues with the chances that she had. She has evaded her problem quite many time by running away which isn't a really great sign in showing mentally mature. I think it's very fortunate for Hinagiku and for me, as a reader, that she has Ayumu as her love rival because I definitely don't want to experience Hinagiku's pace in trying to start a relationship with Hayate without Ayumu's presence.
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Old 2011-01-26, 08:14   Link #7686
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Quote:
Nagi cannot express her feelings normally, when she was embarrassed about Hayate seeing her in the bath, she tosses him out for three days, and then wishes he'd return quicker. When he 'rescues' her from the effects of the hot springs, she reacts in typical tsundere fashion. It's her first time encountering love to this scale as well, and thus just as emotionally immature as Hinagiku.
You're pulling examples from the beginning of the series though, which is exactly the point people are making. At this point in the manga Nagi doesn't have any real issues with expressing her feelings for Hayate while Hina has made very little progress by comparison. (Not that arguing that the 16 year old Student Council President isn't much less immature then the still kinda bratty 13 year old is a compelling argument for maturity.)

It's no knock on Hina to point out her emotional immaturity. She has reasons for it, as you've already noted, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a big part of her character and will continue to be until she finds a way to deal with it.
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Old 2011-01-26, 08:20   Link #7687
mitsuganae
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Thus conscience does make a coward of me;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.

-- the text on Hina's favorite shirt
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Old 2011-01-26, 10:21   Link #7688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madmac View Post
You're pulling examples from the beginning of the series though, which is exactly the point people are making. At this point in the manga Nagi doesn't have any real issues with expressing her feelings for Hayate while Hina has made very little progress by comparison. (Not that arguing that the 16 year old Student Council President isn't much less immature then the still kinda bratty 13 year old is a compelling argument for maturity.)
I think you've chosen a very bad term here. Hina is not "emotionally immature". In fact, she's the opposite - she's very capable and mature in pretty much every aspect (you don't get Student Council President for nothing). The one and only exception is her extreme difficulties dealing with her crush on Hayate. That alone is only an extremely small and minor part of her personality.

Quote:
It's no knock on Hina to point out her emotional immaturity. She has reasons for it, as you've already noted, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a big part of her character and will continue to be until she finds a way to deal with it.
Strike "emotional immaturity", set "problems in dealing with her feelings for Hayate" and we're agreed. And even there, "immaturity" is questionable. It's no matter of "experience". Hina is very much able to reflect on her own actions and feelings, and she shows alot of insight and self-reflection which Nagi totally lacks. It's rather that whenever Hina is directly confronted with romantic issues regarding Hayate, the instincts of the "must-not-lose" fighter in her together with her extreme shyness put a kind of pressure on her which she still can't deal with. Especially since Hayate is a total emotional retard in this kind of things too, so his insensitivity makes it even harder for her to get a grip on things ^_^

Still, "emotional immaturity" simply doesn't fit.
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Old 2011-01-26, 10:49   Link #7689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsuganae View Post
Thus conscience does make a coward of me;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.

-- the text on Hina's favorite shirt
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Old 2011-01-26, 11:16   Link #7690
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Originally Posted by madmac View Post
It's no knock on Hina to point out her emotional immaturity. She has reasons for it, as you've already noted, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a big part of her character and will continue to be until she finds a way to deal with it.
I'm not fighting the knock on Hinagiku to be pointing that out, I'm simply trying to point out that it's being focused on to call her emotionally immature because of her failings in the one case, while most of the other characters are far less emotionally immature in total while being able to best her in the singular case.

Hinagiku is probably the most emotionally mature of the cast, but has been stunted in her growth over love and her fear of heights over the level of the other characters.

Nagi's response to Ayumu requesting to be able to be on a date with Hayate was during the Athens arc, I'd hardly call that the beginning of the manga. That was during one of the most growing arcs of the story for everyone. And comparing that to the responses earlier was just to show that she is slowly growing, as opposed to Hinagiku's rather quick growth in such fields.
To grow so steadily and quickly is a sign of maturity.
Athena on the other hand, doesn't seem to have grown much at all emotionally, and didn't start off very high, causing pain on the other party for supposed infidelity doesn't put you on much of a platform.

Also, Hayate seems to notice this growth, at least subconsciously, and is attracted to it.

A trope that seems to be apt to this discussion, though doesn't entirely fit perfectly, Epiphany Therapy. It talks about how emotions and traumas are dealt with in a single episode in TV land, but for this story, it's averted, with the characters slowly growing instead.
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Old 2011-01-26, 11:33   Link #7691
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Old 2011-01-26, 18:27   Link #7692
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Originally Posted by madmac View Post
It's no knock on Hina to point out her emotional immaturity.
If "emotional immaturity" is referring to her shortcoming in emotional control, then I wholeheartedly agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Hinagiku is probably the most emotionally mature of the cast.
If she's at least 1/4 as "emotionally mature" as Athena or Ayumu, then I don't think I would find her character becoming so dull around Hayate.

If Hinagiku miraculously confronts Hayate like Hitagi toward Koyomi from Bakemonogatari, instead of using her agility to escape from embarrassment or emotional issues, then I would have no problem re-evaluate her character.
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Old 2011-01-26, 20:14   Link #7693
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Actually, there is a part of Hinagiku's 'emotional immaturity' that I would agree with, her being a pettanko. It makes absolutely no sense even on an immature level. She's the idol of the school, both the guys and the girls, Kotarou and Miki respectively serving as the 'heads' of those two dynamics, she has it in the blood, as shown with her older sister, and she has the smarts to put the pieces together, and yet she still thinks she needs to improve her chest.. for what reason again?

Hayate's even made it clear that he doesn't prefer the girls he likes to be significant, the Athena figure he fell in love with is (supposedly) younger than ten, at least before she would even begin developing in that manner.
I really wish they'd just drop that from her character, you know it's eggregrarious when you can make a model with a larger chest and it's still easy to pick out who the model is supposed to be.
There's a better candidate for the token pettanko in the story, with significantly better reason to even think of it as an issue, and is immature enough to support it as well.
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Old 2011-01-26, 21:18   Link #7694
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I don't think being smart, as in Logical-mathematical intelligence, and a school idol have much to do with one's level of maturity. Hinagiku was worry about her feature simply because 'love' is a whole new field to her, and she's no expert in boys. I don't find anything strange about her feeling insecure.

Hayate doesn't preferred girls that are "significant" in that part of female's anatomy is totally new to me, and I don't think it's true at all. It is already awfully peculiar that Hayate loved Athena because of her being flat-chested as a child; and, it's even harder to believe that Hayate was composed of that strange thought because he was only 6 years old back then. Aside from the flat-chested, I also don't think Hayate had feelings for Athena because of her red-eyes, blonde hair, antenna, golden clothes which were some of Athena's physical attributes that can be selected from using your interpretation.

Of course, I believe that it was the circumstance in which they were in and how they helped one another that sparked their mutual feeling.

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Old 2011-01-27, 06:34   Link #7695
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If "emotional immaturity" is referring to her shortcoming in emotional control, then I wholeheartedly agree with you.
This is pretty funny ... If anything, over 99% of the story, Athena was even worse than Hinagiku about dealing with her romantic issues, and other scenes requiring "emotional control". Her default mode (she ordering Hayate around) worked, but so did Hina's dealing with him where she felt she had to do it (usually, when Hayate was in trouble, and she was helping him out).

Whenever Hayate did not do what Athena wanted, she became even more enraged than Hina, up to the violent duel and casting him out. Then came her "watching him but not saying anything" phase. Her cold shrugging him off time and time again, followed by wallowing in self-pity because she was feeling the opposite. More ordering/fighting/blackmail of Hayate, more denials, more rejection, until at the very end - due to the efforts and help of others - the big prize was thrown into her lap for free.

In a nutshell, Athena behaved even worse than Hina when it came to Hayate, but her generally selfish disposition and the favor of the storywriter made her succeed where others struggle. But "emotional maturity" is something entirely different.

For Ayumu, the attribute would be warranted. She has a fairly clear view on things, and she made peace with herself. It's clear that she accepted that she won't be with him, and she's come to terms with it, with a warm and grown-up way to deal with it.
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Old 2011-01-27, 17:21   Link #7696
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This is pretty funny ... If anything, over 99% of the story, Athena was even worse than Hinagiku about dealing with her romantic issues, and other scenes requiring "emotional control". Her default mode (she ordering Hayate around) worked, but so did Hina's dealing with him where she felt she had to do it (usually, when Hayate was in trouble, and she was helping him out).

Whenever Hayate did not do what Athena wanted, she became even more enraged than Hina, up to the violent duel and casting him out. Then came her "watching him but not saying anything" phase. Her cold shrugging him off time and time again, followed by wallowing in self-pity because she was feeling the opposite. More ordering/fighting/blackmail of Hayate, more denials, more rejection, until at the very end - due to the efforts and help of others - the big prize was thrown into her lap for free.

In a nutshell, Athena behaved even worse than Hina when it came to Hayate, but her generally selfish disposition and the favor of the storywriter made her succeed where others struggle. But "emotional maturity" is something entirely different.
I think it's "funny" to even compare Athena to Hinagiku in dealing with romantic issues because Hinagiku, after 300s chapters, has yet capable of "dealing" with her issues at all. Her default mode is still 'physically running' away from embarrassment and emotional issues regarding relationship and avoid "dealing" with it. By 'physically running' away, from my interpretation, she's also greatly lacked in emotional control because she was unable to speak with her outburst of feeling, thus she ran. Also, the time when Hinagiku was wearing a swimsuit, she struggled trying to stop her happy demeanor from surfacing after Hayate said she's cute.

I don't really think it was wrong for Athena to order Hayate around since she was technically his mistress and teacher. While it's true that the 6 year old Athena got angry and violent quite frequency, but the same could easily be said for the 15 years old Hinagiku pulling out her sword due to embarrassments and jokes. I think the only event where the 6yo Athena is "more enrage" was near the end of the EotW ac. But that was the Athena 10 years ago under an extreme circumstance (although I don't dislike it).
Now, if it's about the 16yo Athena, she only 'pinched' Hayate so far, without being influenced by Midas, in her own state of mind (I don't think it's accurate to use the behavior of someone under the influence of something like alcohol as a description for his/her 'normal' behavior ). And, when she decided to distance herself from Hayate, she committed to that decision until Hayate keep coming after her. Although it did hurt her, but she was still hold herself together, didn't forfeit herself to Midas, and protecting Machina from Midas. She didn't let her emotion surfaced, and was easily controlling them, which was clearly given during her reunion with Hayate. Athena also has no problem expressing her feelings and has done quite well once she decided on what to do regarding relationship issue.

The current Athena did behave worst as an antagonistic character while being possessed, but she's much more capable in controlling and dealing with her emotions compare to Hinagiku.
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Old 2011-01-27, 17:32   Link #7697
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Nice way to work Yukiji back into the picture. Hopefully this means the doujin thread is coming back into focus.

Part of me wants to see more of Saku and Wataru * (and wonders if the Vegas escapade has any further ramifications). I for one wouldn't mind seeing a bit of Saku the comedian or Saku the surrogate big sister.

* And no, I don't ship them as a couple. Besides, Saku is too sensible to fall into a matchmaker crush, IMHO.

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Old 2011-01-27, 17:50   Link #7698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
The current Athena did behave worst as an antagonistic character while being possessed, but she's much more capable in controlling and dealing with her emotions compare to Hinagiku.
Athena/Alice resorted to blackmail to get what she wanted, without being possessed (we think).
I believe it's pretty universal that using blackmail is a sign of emotional immaturity.
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... Apparently there are now people in existence who are unable to use a shovel.

Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

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Old 2011-01-27, 19:21   Link #7699
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Athena/Alice resorted to blackmail to get what she wanted, without being possessed (we think).
I believe it's pretty universal that using blackmail is a sign of emotional immaturity.
I believe that it's highly dependent on the reasons and thoughts for doing the blackmailing/manipulating.

If Alice's reason was over toys and such for her personal gain while disregard the damage inflicting on the others, I would call that immature. However, if she blackmailed Hinagiku with the intention of restoring her power and memories while not thinking of doing any harm to Hinagiku, I don't think that's emotionally immature. Her reason and thought is that of an adult with a necessary goal.

For example, Lelouch from Code Geass had done quite a number of manipulations/blackmailings using his geass in order to conquer Britannia. He had a goal and wanted to achieve it, but he needed more power and geass allowed him to achieve those means. His thoughts and reasons for his actions were nothing like those that are emotionally immature.
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Old 2011-01-27, 19:25   Link #7700
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Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
If Alice's reason was over toys and such for her personal gain while disregard the damage inflicting on the others, I would call that immature. However, if she blackmailed Hinagiku with the intention of restoring her power and memories while not thinking of doing any harm to Hinagiku, I don't think that's emotionally immature. Her reason and thought is that of an adult with a necessary goal.
You realize the only difference between those two, by your own words, is whether she was thinking of doing harm to Hina, right? And it's quite obvious she was intending to do at least emotional/mental harm if she didn't comply. That's what made it a threat. She didn't threaten to hurt herself, she threatened to hurt Hina.
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