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Old 2011-02-05, 15:41   Link #7761
leoblack9
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You are thinking way to much nigga. I'd say Hayate wins in a getting hit by a car contest that and only that. His skills are innate too i think.
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Old 2011-02-05, 16:59   Link #7762
ridgezipline
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Many genius' we hear about on TV are called 'young genius', which in their very wording implies that it can be learned.
sorry bro. it's not. genius is something inherent. although factors like environment could improve one's IQ or skill, it is not very far from the person's actual intelligence.
such exceptionality is only verified through a series of tests related to his/her expertise... on tv, the word is overused. being a genius is more than memorizing all countries and their capitals. it requires a lot more than that to be labeled as a 'genius'.

as for 'geniuses' in the manga, i think athena and maria fits the criteria. athena especially -- the way she speaks as a kid, social life mainly around adults, except hayate and hina, decision-making skills, her priorities as a child are all indicators of it.

as for maria, i can't say much because she has really few screen time . nagi and hina might be around superior.

being a genius does not equate achievement. that is why even if hina might not be on the same caliber as athena or maria in terms of mental ability. she excels in a lot of areas, including the acads.
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Old 2011-02-05, 17:48   Link #7763
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Originally Posted by ridgezipline View Post
sorry bro. it's not. genius is something inherent. although factors like environment could improve one's IQ or skill, it is not very far from the person's actual intelligence.
such exceptionality is only verified through a series of tests related to his/her expertise... on tv, the word is overused. being a genius is more than memorizing all countries and their capitals. it requires a lot more than that to be labeled as a 'genius'.

as for 'geniuses' in the manga, i think athena and maria fits the criteria. athena especially -- the way she speaks as a kid, social life mainly around adults, except hayate and hina, decision-making skills, her priorities as a child are all indicators of it.
You do realize that your two 'genius-level' examples are exactly the ones who seem to be holding knowledge that proves they could be older than they look, and thus ineligible for your own definition of being born genius - rather than learned genius who took a body trip back in time to appear as children.

Ever seen the show 'Eureka'? The main character is considered the only one of the town not a genius, and yet has continually shown to be able to surpass the rest of the town's level of intelligence to make his conclusions, all while having a completely average mental ability.
He learns faster than the supposed 'genius' around him.
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Old 2011-02-05, 20:35   Link #7764
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Many genius' we hear about on TV are called 'young genius', which in their very wording implies that it can be learned.
"Young Genius"=Just to tell that these youngster here are geniuses...

Just tell a neurologist (or any intellectual being): My brain will rewire to have an IQ level of a genius if I study harder. Or, I'm sure l'll have a genius IQ level if I study more. You'll become a celebrity.


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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
In this very manga it's implied that genius is not an inborn trait. Nagi, Sakuya, Isumi and Wataru are excellent examples. All are grade-skippers, but Wataru's only seems to be outside of school learning.

On the other hand, Hinagiku has only recently (by the story standards) been given the honor of being called a genius, and has learned to be such.
Those four were never referred to as a geniuses in this manga.

Skip grades do not equivalent to being a genius. It can be done by a smart and hard-working person like Wataru. He said he studied his ass-off in order to skip grades (yes, hard-work pays off in school). However, Nagi easily skipped grades even though she was absent frequently.

Nagi, Maria, and Athena are the only three that was called 'genius' in the manga by other people I believe.

---Nagi was called a 'genius' by Maria because she was an extremely fast learner. At the age of 7, Nagi beat all of her tutors in every game such as in chess,and claimed that none of them was smart enough to teach her, with the only exception being Maria. Yes, that's a genius level that none of the other four you spoke of had shown.

---Maria was called a 'true genius' by the robot-creator-teacher with the same exceptionally intellectual capability as Nagi, but Maria is ever better thant Nagi with her entered high school at 10 and graduated at 13. Never lost in a game.

---Athena was called the 'greatest genius' by Miki because well..I would also like to know what Athena did for Miki to put her above Maria.


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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Additionally, Hayate isn't hailed as a genius and could probably outperform all three on tasks learned from scratch within a given time frame. He learned nearly all of his swordsmanship skills from Athena in what appears to be a few months, and is able to fight at a level that took others years to accomplish.
He also missed the school cut off line by one point, despite us being shown continually that he has a lot of knowledge available to him.
The false test Yukiji put him through would have had no effect on his grade if he were a genius.
Hayate is definitely no genius in Logical-mathematical intelligent, meaning he's no good in academic. He learned many things as a butler from Athena through hard-work and determination with his body. He trained his body so his reflexes and physical capability enhanced greatly, so, of course, he could done anything fast than the especially slow body reflex genius. And, Hayate is definitely has bodily-kinesthetic intelligence.

There are different type of intelligences and different kind of genius. One could be a genius in sport, music, learning languages, etc.

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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Ever seen the show 'Eureka'? The main character is considered the only one of the town not a genius, and yet has continually shown to be able to surpass the rest of the town's level of intelligence to make his conclusions, all while having a completely average mental ability.
He learns faster than the supposed 'genius' around him.
The main character solved problems precisely because he can only think simplistic, while the geniuses think of complicated methods that doesn't work which was the movie's premise. To be honest, it's quite farfect for most occasions.

Last edited by zodanhko; 2011-02-05 at 21:39.
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Old 2011-02-05, 21:08   Link #7765
ridgezipline
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
You do realize that your two 'genius-level' examples are exactly the ones who seem to be holding knowledge that proves they could be older than they look, and thus ineligible for your own definition of being born genius - rather than learned genius who took a body trip back in time to appear as children.

Ever seen the show 'Eureka'? The main character is considered the only one of the town not a genius, and yet has continually shown to be able to surpass the rest of the town's level of intelligence to make his conclusions, all while having a completely average mental ability.
He learns faster than the supposed 'genius' around him.
no lol it's not my personal definition. check 'giftedness' -- jargon used for 'genius'. anyway there are a lot of definitions

the rationale behind the 'older than they look' as you mentioned is simply because gifted(genius) have cognitive abilities beyond their age -- i.e. 6-year old genius may think like an adult(?)... which is also the reason why they prefer talking to adults because children their age couldn't comprehend what they are saying.

for example, the little a-tan in RG knows that it takes financial security, abilities to take care of the your important person, etc. to be in an actual relationship (although exaggeratedly so) which is something hayate didn't understand much back then.

im sorry i havent seen any anime in years as i mentioned giftedness DOES NOT equate achievement. geniuses can be underachievers too. like what you shared about eureka, it happened to einstein as well. his speech was delayed. he cannot read until 7 but we have the benefit of knowing he is one of the greatest minds of our era. thomas edison was called dumb by his teacher yet he invented quite a number of things.

being a genius is not determined by ordinary people. although we can suspect who is and who's not gifted, we still need pros to diagnose them for us.

Last edited by ridgezipline; 2011-02-05 at 21:18. Reason: mixed up :))
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Old 2011-02-05, 22:14   Link #7766
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Originally Posted by ridgezipline View Post
for example, the little a-tan in RG knows that it takes financial security, abilities to take care of the your important person, etc. to be in an actual relationship (although exaggeratedly so) which is something hayate didn't understand much back then.
It does not take the guy to be financially secure to support the family that is a possibility if the woman is secure enough to be able to support her own family while sitting on her hands.

That was a belief common in past ages, and is currently dismissed off-hand, Athena would have known that, even if she had learned it by being a genius.

The event is shown that he was taught the lesson with that being Athena's own words (from Hayate's memories), and thus what was pounded into him, not his own translation of what he was taught. Athena is a living, breathing counter to her own argument, and that she does nothing to dissuade his statement when he presents this to her later proves that that is exactly what she was talking about. The lesson taught also says nothing about the physical toll of the issue, only the financial. Most (of many ages) would say that the

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Originally Posted by ridgezipline View Post
im sorry i havent seen any anime in years as i mentioned giftedness DOES NOT equate achievement. geniuses can be underachievers too. like what you shared about eureka, it happened to einstein as well. his speech was delayed. he cannot read until 7 but we have the benefit of knowing he is one of the greatest minds of our era. thomas edison was called dumb by his teacher yet he invented quite a number of things.
Carter (the main character of Eureka) isn't the one calling everyone genius', it's the entire premise of the show and everyone else, which means the genius' themselves, are saying he's the only normal intelligence in the entire town, and stated in-show that he scored 112 on an IQ test (which doesn't mean much).
His daughter is actually proof of the 'genius can be learned' statement, it wasn't immediately apparent, but she actually belongs in the town as one of the genius', but that's only because she learned to be so, and her father still amazes her.

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being a genius is not determined by ordinary people. although we can suspect who is and who's not gifted, we still need pros to diagnose them for us.
So you're going to wait for someone else to tell you someone's a genius? Is it just me, or does that just plain not sound an intelligent course of action?
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Old 2011-02-05, 23:38   Link #7767
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What... what is this...
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Old 2011-02-05, 23:46   Link #7768
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What... what is this...
My favorite character is objectively better then your favorite character and I can prove it with Science!*


*By Science, I mean references to other completely unrelated (and fictional)cartoons, Television shows, and the odd insert clip from Bill Nye the Science Guy.
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Old 2011-02-06, 00:35   Link #7769
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Originally Posted by madmac View Post
My favorite character is objectively better then your favorite character and I can prove it with Science!*
The subject were- whether (average) people can gain genius level intelligent by massive studying, or is genius an inborn characteristic? I believe the latter, and Bastion believe the former..


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*By Science, I mean references to other completely unrelated (and fictional)cartoons, Television shows, and the odd insert clip from Bill Nye the Science Guy.
Apparently, events in a sci-fictions series can be used as a fact for some.
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Old 2011-02-06, 01:54   Link #7770
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Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
The subject were- whether (average) people can gain genius level intelligent by massive studying, or is genius an inborn characteristic? I believe the latter, and Bastion believe the former..

Apparently, events in a sci-fictions series can be used as a fact for some.
A: This fact is implied well within this series, the characters you and ridgezipline keep bringing up being well within the limits of my side of the argument, as I spoke about when I referred to DC (and Hata makes many references to as well) earlier are main instruments of such.

B: If you actually cared, you'd know that many sci-fi shows often take a lot of pains to use actual scientific fact within their content, generally having experts within the fields be on-set during events to make sure of it, Eureka often does so, and makes it clear within the show even.
Even though Rule of Cool is the order, especially where Athena is concerned, Hata sometimes does delve into real issues.
Also, I continually attempt to bring it back to it's base and it's often you two who tend to take it off course. This discussion had actually started as something else entirely.
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Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

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Old 2011-02-06, 03:25   Link #7771
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A: This fact is implied well within this series
You called your implications facts.

Would you please find a chapter in the manga where Wataru, Isumi, Sayuka, or Hinagiku was being called a genius (like you claimed they are geniuses according to the manga "standard," the "standard" to be a genius you personally made up for the manga without knowing anyone's IQ level)? Don't give me the 'manga implied this and implied that' over and over and over again without any proof.

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B: If you actually cared, you'd know that many sci-fi shows often take a lot of pains to use actual scientific fact within their content
Yes, they many time tried to use scientific ideas to create a fiction story, meaning the story is not true. The events (the word I used) in those fiction series are make-believes, like the case that you used as a fact (as a true story) where an 'average person was capable to save his town because he had an average intelligent with simplistic thinking, while all the geniuses were useless because they were too smart.'Taking that situation seriously is ludicrous to the norm (it's a fiction story, please look at the genre!!!).

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Old 2011-02-06, 10:48   Link #7772
ridgezipline
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
It does not take the guy to be financially secure to support the family that is a possibility if the woman is secure enough to be able to support her own family while sitting on her hands.
it could be either or could be both. i leave it to people to choose which relationship is good for them.

Quote:
So you're going to wait for someone else to tell you someone's a genius? Is it just me, or does that just plain not sound an intelligent course of action?
i will wait because i am in no position to diagnose someone's abilities. things like these require years of training, certification, licenses, etc. the most i can do is to suspect and refer them to good pros [by pros i do not mean the quacks on tv].

isnt it more intelligent to simply say what you know and listen to others who know far better than claim you're an expert in this and that but in reality you're not?

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Originally Posted by madmac View Post
My favorite character is objectively better then your favorite character and I can prove it with Science!*

*By Science, I mean references to other completely unrelated (and fictional)cartoons, Television shows, and the odd insert clip from Bill Nye the Science Guy.

Last edited by ridgezipline; 2011-02-06 at 11:17.
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Old 2011-02-06, 15:01   Link #7773
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Quote:
Quote:
What... what is this...
My favorite character is objectively better then your favorite character and I can prove it with Science!*


*By Science, I mean references to other completely unrelated (and fictional)cartoons, Television shows, and the odd insert clip from Bill Nye the Science Guy.
May I join both of you, please?

I will say one thing about this whole genius business: assuming one has intimate knowledge of the field(s) in question, one can truly know what a genius is only by knowing one firsthand (fictional characters don't bloody count) or actually being one. I seriously doubt either applies to anyone here.

That, and standards for being a genius must have dropped quite a bit, considering how often the term is thrown around nowadays.

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Old 2011-02-07, 19:07   Link #7774
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It's funny because they go right back from replying to our snarking at their argument to arguing again.

So what're we talking about again?
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Old 2011-02-07, 20:07   Link #7775
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Yes, they many time tried to use scientific ideas to create a fiction story, meaning the story is not true. The events (the word I used) in those fiction series are make-believes, like the case that you used as a fact (as a true story) where an 'average person was capable to save his town because he had an average intelligent with simplistic thinking, while all the geniuses were useless because they were too smart.'Taking that situation seriously is ludicrous to the norm (it's a fiction story, please look at the genre!!!).
I think you're turned around. Sci Fi is a fictional setting with scientific principles applied to it.
The story often is largely true, but put into another setting to keep from being to blatant about it and getting taken off of the air for insulting the government or someone.

The genius' in Eureka are not useless because they're too smart, they're useful (except for the main character, the genius' play a significant role), and they do give him the facts he needs, they just can't put them together in the 'save the episode' way that he can. Essentially Humans are Special put in a setting we ourselves haven't gotten to yet.

Take another Sci Fi example and largely you'll find the same pattern. Even things like comics could be thrown under the umbrella of Sci Fi, but clearly use methods of actual science to explain things. Even HnG uses his method on occasion.

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it could be either or could be both. i leave it to people to choose which relationship is good for them.
I would agree with that, but add the point that Athena isn't teaching that. She's beating into Hayate that this is the only way to have a relationship, which is an antiquated way of thinking and is no longer valid.

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Originally Posted by ridgezipline View Post
i will wait because i am in no position to diagnose someone's abilities. things like these require years of training, certification, licenses, etc. the most i can do is to suspect and refer them to good pros [by pros i do not mean the quacks on tv].
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Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
---Nagi was called a 'genius' by Maria because she was an extremely fast learner. At the age of 7, Nagi beat all of her tutors in every game such as in chess,and claimed that none of them was smart enough to teach her, with the only exception being Maria. Yes, that's a genius level that none of the other four you spoke of had shown.

---Maria was called a 'true genius' by the robot-creator-teacher with the same exceptionally intellectual capability as Nagi, but Maria is ever better thant Nagi with her entered high school at 10 and graduated at 13. Never lost in a game.

---Athena was called the 'greatest genius' by Miki because well..I would also like to know what Athena did for Miki to put her above Maria.
Is it just me, or do those two statements contradict each other? Maria almost qualifies for naming Nagi a genius, except that the one who names her a genius is not qualified to do so, thus invalidating the entire matter.

So using your own statement, that normal people can't make a judgment about a person being a genius, we can't call anyone a genius, and neither can anyone within the manga because we've been given no hints that any of them are qualified for it, and thus this entire argument is invalidated.

Don't you just love when statements are put together like that Mc Glasses?
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Arcion's is open for business. How would you like your hare-brained scheme?

Would people quit throwing my faith in humanity being intelligent a shovel?
... Apparently there are now people in existence who are unable to use a shovel.

Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.

Last edited by Bastion_Arcion; 2011-02-07 at 22:02.
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Old 2011-02-08, 01:12   Link #7776
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
I think you're turned around. Sci Fi is a fictional setting with scientific principles applied to it.
The story often is largely true, but put into another setting to keep from being to blatant about it and getting taken off of the air for insulting the government or someone.
How can a story be "largely true" if the events in the story had never happened before? That's quite impossible.

The word fiction was there because , like fantasy genre, the story was created from the author's imagination, not from reality, but with the integration of the current laws of nature and scientific ideas, or could possibly contradict them and established new laws that haven't exist, which many fantasy stories generally lack. Phenomenons like aliens, time-travels, superpower, physic, faster than the speed of light, parallel world had never occurred nor discovered and were never true. Stories can be considered true only after they had occurred in reality, which are those stories we called non-fictions.

The scientific principles that applied to those stories may be valid and some could possibly be achieved in the future, but not one of those science-fictions stories have been a true story.


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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
So using your own statement, that normal people can't make a judgment about a person being a genius, we can't call anyone a genius, and neither can anyone within the manga because we've been given no hints that any of them are qualified for it, and thus this entire argument is invalidated.
Sorry, but that's not my statement. That's ridgezipline's.

You quoted the facts, not merely hints...

Last edited by zodanhko; 2011-02-08 at 01:25.
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Old 2011-02-08, 10:28   Link #7777
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Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
How can a story be "largely true" if the events in the story had never happened before? That's quite impossible.

The word fiction was there because , like fantasy genre, the story was created from the author's imagination, not from reality, but with the integration of the current laws of nature and scientific ideas, or could possibly contradict them and established new laws that haven't exist, which many fantasy stories generally lack. Phenomenons like aliens, time-travels, superpower, physic, faster than the speed of light, parallel world had never occurred nor discovered and were never true. Stories can be considered true only after they had occurred in reality, which are those stories we called non-fictions.

The scientific principles that applied to those stories may be valid and some could possibly be achieved in the future, but not one of those science-fictions stories have been a true story.
You win. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Sorry, but that's not my statement. That's ridgezipline's.

You quoted the facts, not merely hints...
Twice.
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Would people quit throwing my faith in humanity being intelligent a shovel?
... Apparently there are now people in existence who are unable to use a shovel.

Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

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Old 2011-02-08, 12:33   Link #7778
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As expected, the story finally gave some focus to Wataru, Saki and Sakuya. Basically, Saki tried to find a job to help Wataru, but at the end he told her not to worry, since he'd make things work in the end.

I wonder if we'll get an Isumi chapter next. I think she's the only one who hasn't shown up at all during this arc. I suppose Ayumu will be re-appearing soon, since, even though she has shown up during this arc, she hasn't shown up in quite some time.

Anyway, I hope Hata goes back to Luca soon.
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Old 2011-02-08, 14:09   Link #7779
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I would be quite happy to get either an Isumi or Ayumu chapter next.

It seems I predicted right that Hata would be continuing the neglected character side story tour for awhile before resuming the Nagi/Luca arc.

I'm guessing another 5 chapters or so of self-contained stories. Hata reaaally seems to hate doing timeskips of more then a day or two, but we've had enough chapters already to fill about a week since the con ended. Another week worth of fluff chapters would put us within about a week of the flashforward, which seems an intuitive time to pick things up again.
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Old 2011-02-08, 16:12   Link #7780
Mentar
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I think what we're seeing here is the classic example of a story which has been running for too long without shedding characters. In the end, you lose months just trying to give the secondary lineup a small GLIMPSE which is little more than a brief nod in their direction, but certainly no satisfying storyline progression for anybody.

Seriously, Hata. Start to come to an end.
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