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Old 2011-02-08, 16:22   Link #7781
Used Can
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Well, this is one of the problems when you add far too many characters in a story. Either you neglect them, or you have to dedicate time to them which could very well be used on more important issues. But well, this is an issue you find in a good number of anime and manga.

I also think that, perhaps, Hata uses these sort of chapters to give himself some time to write how some future events should play out in advance.
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Old 2011-02-08, 16:58   Link #7782
ridgezipline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Is it just me, or do those two statements contradict each other? Maria almost qualifies for naming Nagi a genius, except that the one who names her a genius is not qualified to do so, thus invalidating the entire matter.

So using your own statement, that normal people can't make a judgment about a person being a genius, we can't call anyone a genius, and neither can anyone within the manga because we've been given no hints that any of them are qualified for it, and thus this entire argument is invalidated.
regarding the assessment and identification of the gifted, i was talking about real-life ones.
for fiction, it can be anyone the author deemed worthy. heck it can even be a trash collector for all i care.

i put my two cents on the whole genius business already -- based on what i learned and what i practice at work. if you don't think it's correct, it's no prob. this will be my last reply on that one

Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Well, this is one of the problems when you add far too many characters in a story. Either you neglect them, or you have to dedicate time to them which could very well be used on more important issues. But well, this is an issue you find in a good number of anime and manga.

I also think that, perhaps, Hata uses these sort of chapters to give himself some time to write how some future events should play out in advance.
not to mention... more chapters = more money
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Old 2011-02-08, 19:22   Link #7783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ridgezipline View Post
regarding the assessment and identification of the gifted, i was talking about real-life ones.
for fiction, it can be anyone the author deemed worthy. heck it can even be a trash collector for all i care.
So 'word of God' is literal to you.. so that's three.

Rereading volume 8, Miki also calls Maria a genius, equates Hinagiku's intelligence as her equal, and makes no mention of Athena at all. Also, apparently Athena wasn't able to become school president her first year, while the other two did.
Apparently Athena's rating of 'one of the schools' greatest genius'' ranks Athena, at best, at third place in Miki's book.
Of course, with Miki being just above failing her own classes makes her rating system a little questionable.
This is done in the arc right before Athena's first appearance in Hayate's flashback, so there's very little probability of it being a retcon that she's a genius.
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Old 2011-02-08, 19:33   Link #7784
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The longer this series runs, the more annoyed I get when I read chapters that don't focus on the "main story". I put "main story" in brackets because there isn't exactly one, but by that I mean the "Nagi lost her fortune and has to rebuild from scratch" plot and "A-tan lost her memories and has to get them back" plot. Those are far more interesting to me than fluff about Saki, Wataru, Sakuya and the other periphery characters.
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Old 2011-02-08, 21:38   Link #7785
zodanhko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Apparently Athena's rating of 'one of the schools' greatest genius'' ranks Athena, at best, at third place in Miki's book.
It's...astounding. Your level of misinterpreting is...astounding. Since this will be my last reply to you, I'll point out the meaning of Miki's statement: http://www.mangareader.net/203-25512...apter-234.html.

The phrase Miki used was: "She's most likely the greatest genius out of all the students who have ever gone to Hakuou" meant that the possibility of her being the greatest genius in Hakuou is higher than all of the students who have ever gone there.

How you interpreted was: "She's one of the school's greatest geniuses" meant that there are other great geniuses like her in the school and she's one of them.

I thought it can easily be understood when I quoted the statement for you before, but god was I wrong...Well, whatever...I have learned my lesson.
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Old 2011-02-08, 21:45   Link #7786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
It's...astounding. Your level of misinterpreting is...astounding. Since this will be my last reply to you, I'll point out the meaning of Miki's statement: http://www.mangareader.net/203-25512...apter-234.html.

The phrase Miki used was: "She's most likely the greatest genius out of all the students who have ever gone to Hakuou" meant that the possibility of her being the greatest genius in Hakuou is higher than all of the students who have ever gone there.

How you interpreted was: "She's one of the school's greatest geniuses" meant that there are other great geniuses like her in the school and she's one of them.

I thought it can easily be understood when I quoted the statement for you before, but god was I wrong...Well, whatever...
I'm not misunderstanding that statement, just taking it with Miki's earlier statement: "That's right, just Hina and that girl genius (Maria). So only those who are truly gifted can serve as Hakuou Student Body President."
She clearly stated that only Hinagiku and Maria are gifted enough to be president of the school, which means that Athena was not.
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Old 2011-02-08, 22:18   Link #7787
zodanhko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
I'm not misunderstanding that statement, just taking it with Miki's earlier statement: "That's right, just Hina and that girl genius (Maria). So only those who are truly gifted can serve as Hakuou Student Body President."

She clearly stated that only Hinagiku and Maria are gifted enough to be president of the school, which means that Athena was not.
You definitely misunderstood Miki's statement about Athena.Please, take into Account Miki's future statement about Athena since Athena didn't even appeared that early into the story. And I don't think "truly gifted" is equivalent to "truly amazing (which the manga used)."

Miki realized that Hinagiku and Maria, the prodigy, were extremely capable people since they both became the SCP. Yet, even though Miki realized how capable Maria and Hinagiku were, she was still refer Athena as "She's (Athena) most likely the greatest genius out of all the students who have ever gone to Hakuou" which put Athena above both Maria and Hinagiku. Miki deemed Athena so extraordinary that she'd be hesitant just to approach Athena, and referred to herself as "a normal student" who never had the honor to talk to Athena. That's how great she thinks Athena is compare to Maria and Hina.

Like I said before, Athena never became the SCP could be because she was already the Board Chairman, and Miki knew that Athena was the Board Chairman which had no need for her to become the SCP. (Ok...start ignoring...)

Last edited by zodanhko; 2011-02-08 at 23:52.
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Old 2011-02-09, 02:01   Link #7788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
You definitely misunderstood Miki's statement about Athena.Please, take into Account Miki's future statement about Athena since Athena didn't even appeared that early into the story. And I don't think "truly gifted" is equivalent to "truly amazing (which the manga used)."
And there you find the difference between the fan translated (which you used) and the official translation (which is what I'd read and copied from, before I'd even looked for the online version).
The chapter in question was a precursor to Athena's first appearance. Hata already had the character basics in mind when that statement was written. And that's even if you don't subscribe to the belief that Hata already had Athena planned from the beginning (which the RG already was).

Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Miki realized that Hinagiku and Maria, the prodigy, were extremely capable people since they both became the SCP. Yet, even though Miki realized how capable Maria and Hinagiku were, she was still refer Athena as "She's (Athena) most likely the greatest genius out of all the students who have ever gone to Hakuou" which put Athena above both Maria and Hinagiku. Miki deemed Athena so extraordinary that she'd be hesitant just to approach Athena, and referred to herself as "a normal student" who never had the honor to talk to Athena. That's how great she thinks Athena is compare to Maria and Hina.
The statement is that only Maria and Hinagiku were able to hold the position of president like they had. Clearly saying that Athena could not have held the post from her first year. Not that Athena didn't have need to, would not have been able to.

I say again, I can state that Hinagiku is one of my favorite characters in this manga and it be a true statement. It doesn't change the fact that Hinagiku in my personal favorites is generally 5th place, and 4th is the highest she's gotten.
To apply that to Miki's statement, Miki clearly places Athena's show of intelligence above most of the students, but doesn't necessarily automatically place her as #1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Ok...start ignoring...
I've tried ignoring several times during this conversation. Hasn't worked yet, I don't want to leave your points unanswered because then other readers wouldn't realize that the statements don't make sense.
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Would people quit throwing my faith in humanity being intelligent a shovel?
... Apparently there are now people in existence who are unable to use a shovel.

Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.
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Old 2011-02-09, 03:13   Link #7789
zodanhko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
The statement is that only Maria and Hinagiku were able to hold the position of president like they had. Clearly saying that Athena could not have held the post from her first year. Not that Athena didn't have need to, would not have been able to.

To apply that to Miki's statement, Miki clearly places Athena's show of intelligence above most of the students, but doesn't necessarily automatically place her as #1.
.
Ignoring doesn't work...Dam my personality!!!

According to Miki, it was very clear that she placed Athena above every student including Maria and Hinagiku, and it will still be valid regardless of what the SCP ordeal was because Miki placed Athena above them both EVEN AFTER she realized that Maria and Hinagiku were the only freshmen with the SCP title. That means that, in Miki's eye, the SCP title was meaningless when comparing to Athena.

According to Miki (a student council member), the TRIO, "normal students" as they admitted when comparing themselves to Athena, didn't even have the honor to talk to Athena while they can easily meet and speak with the student council members. That indicated that Athena's position could be even more 'special' than the SCP itself, which only Athena had gotten (meaning she was capable to achieve something greater than the SCP while the other two had achieved the SCP title). It could easily be true giving how high the TRIO think of Athena.

Last edited by zodanhko; 2011-02-09 at 03:24.
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Old 2011-02-09, 09:02   Link #7790
AnimeFangirl
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I'm a newcomer to this thread, so bear with me, but...what's the point of arguing about whether Athena is a genius or not? And what difference does it make whether she's smarter than Maria and Hinagiku or not?
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Old 2011-02-09, 10:01   Link #7791
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Originally Posted by GlassesLady View Post
It's funny because they go right back from replying to our snarking at their argument to arguing again.
It's a particularly savory morsel of irony that one of them linked to this page.

Last edited by mitsuganae; 2011-02-09 at 10:38.
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Old 2011-02-09, 11:07   Link #7792
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorfl View Post
I'm a newcomer to this thread, so bear with me, but...what's the point of arguing about whether Athena is a genius or not? And what difference does it make whether she's smarter than Maria and Hinagiku or not?
Draco in Leather Pants + Athena. It's happened in every forum that discusses HnG.

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Originally Posted by mitsuganae View Post
It's a particularly savory morsel of irony that one of them linked to this page.
Not irony, Genre Savvy. I know what I'm doing.
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Would people quit throwing my faith in humanity being intelligent a shovel?
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Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.

Last edited by Bastion_Arcion; 2011-02-09 at 11:22.
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Old 2011-02-09, 11:17   Link #7793
mitsuganae
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I know what I'm doing.
And the irony deepens.

Last edited by mitsuganae; 2011-02-09 at 12:50.
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Old 2011-02-09, 14:58   Link #7794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorfl View Post
I'm a newcomer to this thread, so bear with me, but...what's the point of arguing about whether Athena is a genius or not? And what difference does it make whether she's smarter than Maria and Hinagiku or not?
well i'd rather have pages of tl;dr posts by bastion and zodanhko (even though I dont always agree with them) and keep the thread active than having this thread die and only get 1 post every 2 days like it was back when Athena had disappeared from the manga.

Its like I've said before...like her or not, both her fans and her "haters" are very vocal so shitstorms always follows her name so might as well get used to it.
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Old 2011-02-09, 15:15   Link #7795
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You know, with Wataru starting up a new business soon...maybe he'll become Nagi's editor/publisher? He was really talking up the growth potential of the doujinshi market at the first con.

Heck, maybe he'll start up his own circle or magazine and starts publishing Nagi, Luca, and Yukiji (Hey, someone has got to fill pages. Throw in Kaoru and Kotetsu if you want.) all at once.
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Old 2011-02-09, 16:05   Link #7796
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You know, with Wataru starting up a new business soon...maybe he'll become Nagi's editor/publisher? He was really talking up the growth potential of the doujinshi market at the first con.

Heck, maybe he'll start up his own circle or magazine and starts publishing Nagi, Luca, and Yukiji (Hey, someone has got to fill pages. Throw in Kaoru and Kotetsu if you want.) all at once.
I rather like that, even though you may have meant it half-jokingly. One of the possibilities that came to my mind when I was new to the Hayateverse was (the rather obvious one) that Nagi's fortunes (monetary and/or otherwise) would shrink while Wataru's would grow.
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Old 2011-02-09, 16:31   Link #7797
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And then Wataru mans-up that the girls in Hayate's harem migrate to Wataru's.

FUCK YEAH
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Old 2011-02-09, 20:03   Link #7798
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Originally Posted by Game8910 View Post
Its like I've said before...like her or not, both her fans and her "haters" are very vocal so shitstorms always follows her name so might as well get used to it.
Given that you (used to be?) one of her most fervent followers, and I'm no where near either side of that scale, that's actually a rather amusing statement coming from you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
And then Wataru mans-up that the girls in Hayate's harem migrate to Wataru's.

FUCK YEAH
Except Saki seems to have fallen into Hayate's harem, at least she seems to be growing fonder of him than she was in the beginning.
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Would people quit throwing my faith in humanity being intelligent a shovel?
... Apparently there are now people in existence who are unable to use a shovel.

Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.
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Old 2011-02-09, 21:20   Link #7799
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Given that you (used to be?) one of her most fervent followers, and I'm no where near either side of that scale, that's actually a rather amusing statement coming from you
make no mistake, she is still my fav character in this series and I have not stopped liking her any less than before...but I think I will sit this one out and remain a spectator.

I would comment on the new chapter but this manga has been a little boring recently (still funny but not much to talk about) when compared with other series im following like Negima or TWGOK.
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Old 2011-02-10, 10:04   Link #7800
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New chapter's out.
Saki looks kinda good in that suit... Hmm.
And the ending was sweet. Wataru's a cool guy.
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