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Old 2006-12-15, 18:40   Link #361
Sazelyt
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Quite frankly I don't see how this cost you a good argument ...
If that exploding bunshin is indeed a water-bunshin based jutsu, Kakashi knowing that jutsu in advance would also mean he should be familiar with that jutsu. That usually means, in Kakashi's case, he would be able to do it as long as he is capable of doing it. That is a likely scenario. And, if a person knows water-bunshin in that way, I think it is safe to assume that he would be aware of the normal water-bunshin before he has met Zabuza.

Quote:
so I will explain my point further : The difficulty, the commonly use, even the number of opponents Kakashi might have faced using this jutsu are completely irrelevant.
When I said your point isn't about logic I didn't mean you were illogical. I meant it's just not about that. Your point is about likeliness.
You find likely that Kakashi had to fight someone using this jutsu, that it's likely he was in a situation where he could copy it and thus that Zabuza was wrong. Which funny enough means the presentation of the Sharingan as the copy jutsu eyes was a fight without jutsu copied.
If you remember the chapter, the specific illustration about Sharingan copying (although that may not be the case, even if it is unlikely but still possible) was used for the second water jutsu, the water dragon, I guess. The water-bunshin is excluded from that, and we only have the assumption of Zabuza that doesn't seem to rely on an observation unlike the water dragon part. Even if you can argue about the copying of the second water jutsu, I think the first one does not have a support at the second one's level.

Quote:
My point is very simple : likeliness doesn't hold water in front of explaination.
You know what? The jutsu Naruto learned in a night isn't the Kage Bunshin, it's the Tayuu Kage Bunshin. It's an A-rank jutsu, ie above Jounin level. That's right the very first jutsu Naruto ever learned correctly whereas the guy can't even pronounce "shape manipulation" correctly and at the time didn't even know what was chakra was a forbidden A rank jutsu. Oh he also beat easily a rogue Chuunin.
This is not likely to happen. If realism was even remotely part of the story Naruto would have died during chapter 1.
I haven't read the scrolls so I don't know about the details of Tajuu Kage Bunshin. But, I guess, logically, we should assume that the basics related to kage bunshin would also be explained in that scroll. And, I think what Naruto accomplished in his training with the scroll when he was alone, was a regular Kage Bunshin, rather than Tajuu Kage Bunshin. But, these are just assumptions, but for me likely assumptions. And, I gave Kage Bunshin example mainly because I don't think its training would require a lot of effort in achieving success, unlike the training with Rasengan. By effort I mainly refer to the effort not requiring the direct/indirect help of Kyuubi (as healing or additional chakra).

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This isn't reality, this is a manga.
You don't find likely that Kakashi's copying ability is presented with a jutsu that you think is commonly used and thus should have been copied during the last dozen years by Kakashi.
Well that's tough, put that on the pile of unrealistic events that happen all the time.

Still for the sake of arguing my subsidiary point is also about the degree of likeliness of this event.
And the fact is that you have no idea how much Ninja able to use this jutsu (which was stated by Kisame as a jutsu specifically from the Mist village if I remember well) Kakashi have faced. You don't know how much of those have used it. And you don't know if Kakashi was looking at them if they did use it.
These 3 points are just assumptions.
You arg that if Kakashi could copy a A-ranked jutsu like the water dragon thingy in the past it's unlikely he couldn't copy a C-rank jutsu.
Well no. That just depends of who he fought, period. Zabuza used it alot since he specialized in this jutsu but not everyone does.
It is not only Zabuza who used it, Kisame also used it. Considering its rank, the less amount of chakra it requires in using it, make it a more fitting choice for many ninja. Still, that is a generalization, but I think it is logical for people who can use water elemental. The examples that we have seen so far would tell that the water jutsu Kakashi used from his memory would mean he had fought against at least one good opponent, and all the good opponents that use water from mist used that water clone technique. I think those can be counted as good supportive arguments. I am not claiming what I said is true. I am only claiming that there is a possibility of becoming true without contradicting the story.
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Old 2006-12-17, 04:32   Link #362
Bijuu Killer
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^ I agree with Sazelyt on this debate.

The Mizu Bunshin is a basic jutsu from Kirigakure and it's unlikely Kakashi didn't know it before he fought Zabuza.


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Originally Posted by miss rave View Post
It'd be hard to say, Since we don't know if Hidan was brought into Akatsuki by Kakuzu but Kakuzu has seemed to be there before Hidan's time. Maybe they're connected in some way like that or maybe Hidan is just linked to the Jashin and spirits so he kinda feels sorry for when a spirit dies. Like a person would feel sad watching a child die.
I don't think they are related. They have just really good team work. Hidan can fight on his own, though.

Last edited by Bijuu Killer; 2006-12-17 at 04:59.
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Old 2006-12-17, 10:37   Link #363
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
I am only claiming that there is a possibility of becoming true without contradicting the story.
I think this is the most important sentence of your post : of course it can become true, I didn't say that Kakashi knowing the Mizu Bunshin beforehand was illogical.
But it has to become true. As long as there is no indication (flashback or whatever) that Zabuza was mistaken, his words are what hold the most weight.
That's basically the crux of my argument.

Quote:
If you remember the chapter, the specific illustration about Sharingan copying (although that may not be the case, even if it is unlikely but still possible) was used for the second water jutsu, the water dragon, I guess. The water-bunshin is excluded from that, and we only have the assumption of Zabuza that doesn't seem to rely on an observation unlike the water dragon part. Even if you can argue about the copying of the second water jutsu, I think the first one does not have a support at the second one's level.
Actually no, the Mizu Bunshin is the very first jutsu used as a presentation of the Sharingan's ability back in the chapters 12 & 13. It's even what leaded to Zabuza's strategy for their second fight where he decided thus to create a Mist so thick that nobody, not even him, could see anything hence avoiding what happened with the Mizu Bunshin.

And yeah I know Kisame used it, I said that since it was one of Zabuza's speciality he used it alot.
Kisame used this jutsu ponctually to deal with multiple attack whereas this jutsu was Zabuza's bread and butter.
My point is that contrary to Zabuza who spammed this jutsu, other Mist ninja may not use it when they're not facing several opponents just like Kisame didn't use this jutsu when he had to deal with Gai alone.

Quote:
If that exploding bunshin is indeed a water-bunshin based jutsu, Kakashi knowing that jutsu in advance would also mean he should be familiar with that jutsu. That usually means, in Kakashi's case, he would be able to do it as long as he is capable of doing it. That is a likely scenario. And, if a person knows water-bunshin in that way, I think it is safe to assume that he would be aware of the normal water-bunshin before he has met Zabuza.
Kakashi's Sharingan just made him understood that the Bunshin was gonna blowing up, like thanks to the Byakugan Neji was able to tell that Deidara's clay clone was on the verge of exploding.
But even with your reasoning it would only imply that Kakashi knew the mechanism of the Mizu Bunshin, not how long he knew about them.
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Old 2006-12-17, 14:34   Link #364
Dauthi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post

My point is very simple : likeliness doesn't hold water in front of explaination.
You know what? The jutsu Naruto learned in a night isn't the Kage Bunshin, it's the Tayuu Kage Bunshin. It's an A-rank jutsu, ie above Jounin level. That's right the very first jutsu Naruto ever learned correctly whereas the guy can't even pronounce "shape manipulation" correctly and at the time didn't even know what was chakra was a forbidden A rank jutsu. Oh he also beat easily a rogue Chuunin.
This is not likely to happen. If realism was even remotely part of the story Naruto would have died during chapter 1.
A village can lose half of its force in war and return as a great power in less than 3 years which mean Konoha's women give birth every few weeks and their kids become trained adult in a couple of months.
It was always my thought that Naruto never really tried to study that stuff, thus was pretty dumb. That day he decided to go all out and learn that technique. That day he proved he wasn't as dumb as he acted, and could be quite smart if he applied himself. I think one of the main reasons it is such a high rank is simply because of the massive chakra restriction on it. If a simple genin or chuunin used it and they have little chakra, it could possibly be fatal. Of course we all know Naruto has that chakra to spare though.
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Old 2006-12-17, 22:38   Link #365
PervySama
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Join Date: Nov 2006
I think Ino is going to use her jutsu on Hidan because if Kaka's sharingan sees how Hidan does his blood jutsu he can tell Ino. Ino can capture Hidan then make him use his curse on Kazuzu, which will give them a chance to hit him in all of his hearts. After that it's a matter of them taking on Hidan and how weakened they are.
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Old 2006-12-18, 10:24   Link #366
Uh_huh
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Toronto, ON
Well, I would like to see Ino be useful for once, even Sakura has improved immensely after the time skip. If the only new thing that Ino has learned is medical jutsu, the I will be quite disappointed.

Why is it that Shounen (almost) always makes the female sex so helpless and weak?
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Old 2006-12-18, 13:30   Link #367
Sinaura
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Originally Posted by Uh_huh View Post
Why is it that Shounen (almost) always makes the female sex so helpless and weak?
It's not just Shounen my friend, it's the world.
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Old 2006-12-19, 03:01   Link #368
ikimasu
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Wink

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Originally Posted by Sinaura View Post
It's not just Shounen my friend, it's the world.
No offend, but i think they just make story as the world it is, look more realistic. Btw, we do have a lady's hokage aite?
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