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Old 2006-12-28, 20:00   Link #21
MC Zandogg
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im gonna end this right now

Ichigo JUST got his bankai..........he LITERALLY just got it like that instant, of course they dont say that but u see that ichigo is still trainign the day of the exacution(messsed that spelling up reallll good) while byakuya had his bankai for many years,on top of that ichigos bankai has a negative effect on him because he cant control his reatsu, ALSO byakuya completey mastered his bankai (hence why it has "true form".........im not saying byakuya coulnt kill ichigo instantly if he wanted,but im saying that byakuya didnt rly "win".......ichi was at a severe disadvantage..........but also if ichi wanted to kill bya he couldnt done it.........at the very beginning of the fight ichi coulda lobbed his head off........so in my eyes ichi won ICHIGO FTW!!!!!!
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Old 2006-12-29, 00:15   Link #22
hdx514
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Originally Posted by MC Zandogg View Post
im gonna end this right now

Ichigo JUST got his bankai..........he LITERALLY just got it like that instant, of course they dont say that but u see that ichigo is still trainign the day of the exacution(messsed that spelling up reallll good) while byakuya had his bankai for many years,on top of that ichigos bankai has a negative effect on him because he cant control his reatsu, ALSO byakuya completey mastered his bankai (hence why it has "true form".........im not saying byakuya coulnt kill ichigo instantly if he wanted,but im saying that byakuya didnt rly "win".......ichi was at a severe disadvantage..........but also if ichi wanted to kill bya he couldnt done it.........at the very beginning of the fight ichi coulda lobbed his head off........so in my eyes ichi won ICHIGO FTW!!!!!!
the problem is selective perception of some uber fanboys of byakuya/kenpachi/renji/ikkaku, unfortunately you aren't ever going to convince them. it's blatantly obvious that ichigo was the one disadvantaged in any S.S. fights by a wide margin, yet these fanboys only talk about how byakuya went easy on him/was just careless, how ichigo cheated by relying on his hollow self (how do you call relying on your own strength cheating?), how kenpachi didn't know the name of his zanpakutou (after centuries)

that ichigo is practically an infant fighting seasoned professionals? they don't care, so they can't see. that ichigo had his sword on byakuya's throat?photoshoped, didn't happen. that ichigo fought many fights before finally getting to byakuya? they don't remember. that ichigo had much better control of his newly acquired bankai than renji in the byakuya fight? that's because his got a fluke bankai which is EASY, not only that, but ichigo only progressed so fast because the things he chose to learn all happened to be uber easy, in reality he is just a mediocre learner. that ichigo triumphed in the byakuya/kenpachi fight, is the main character of bleach with the greatest potential/growth who kubo clearly favors the most? to them that's "unrealistic expectation" and whoever thinks that must be on drugs, which inevitably include you, me, kubo, kenpachi, byakuya, aizen, urahara, among others. at the same time these fanboys are very realistically speculating bankai kenpachi, bankai renji kicking ichigo's arse and bankai orihime killing herself with bankai...
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Old 2006-12-29, 09:59   Link #23
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by hdx514 View Post
the problem is selective perception of some uber fanboys of byakuya/kenpachi/renji/ikkaku, unfortunately you aren't ever going to convince them. it's blatantly obvious that ichigo was the one disadvantaged in any S.S. fights by a wide margin, yet these fanboys only talk about how byakuya went easy on him/was just careless, how ichigo cheated by relying on his hollow self (how do you call relying on your own strength cheating?), how kenpachi didn't know the name of his zanpakutou (after centuries)

that ichigo is practically an infant fighting seasoned professionals? they don't care, so they can't see. that ichigo had his sword on byakuya's throat?photoshoped, didn't happen. that ichigo fought many fights before finally getting to byakuya? they don't remember. that ichigo had much better control of his newly acquired bankai than renji in the byakuya fight? that's because his got a fluke bankai which is EASY, not only that, but ichigo only progressed so fast because the things he chose to learn all happened to be uber easy, in reality he is just a mediocre learner. that ichigo triumphed in the byakuya/kenpachi fight, is the main character of bleach with the greatest potential/growth who kubo clearly favors the most? to them that's "unrealistic expectation" and whoever thinks that must be on drugs, which inevitably include you, me, kubo, kenpachi, byakuya, aizen, urahara, among others. at the same time these fanboys are very realistically speculating bankai kenpachi, bankai renji kicking ichigo's arse and bankai orihime killing herself with bankai...
One thing I hate is how the term "fanboy" is flinged around this forum by people when someone supports the skills of a character and they don't agree with it. Don't talk about others being Byakuya fanboys then proceed to talk about Ichigo like he's the alpha and omega lest you be called an Ichigo fanboy (and just because he's the main character doesn't mean his supporters are immune from fanboyism).

Byakuya was being careless as he stated that he thought Ichigo's bankai looked weak and more like a mockery of bankai than the real thing. Ichigo saw this and gave a display of his power to show he was the real deal and make Byakuya fight more seriously, hence the sword on the throat. Did this indicate carelessness on Byakuya's part? Yes. Does this indicate Ichigo's superiority over Byakuya? No. Does this indicate Ichigo was weaker than Byakuya? No. All this proves is that Byakuya wasn't fighting at his maximum potential at the beginning of the fight.

Also, Ichigo's bankai is relatively simple. His zanpakuto changes shape, but its nature doesn't change. It doesn't become a completely different weapon like Mayuri or Renji's, or become kidou based like Bya's. He was basically able to use the same swordsmanship he had used since day one slaying menos, albeit with high amounts of shunpo. And yes, it is a fluke (or rather a plot device) that he got such a simple banaki which he could immediately use effectively. But he's still far from mastering it, which is why he couldn't maintain his power against Byakuya. Even Ichigo's hollow side stated that Ichigo didn't know how to use his bankai properly.

Ichigo could've and would've lost badly to Byakuya, as he was getting weaker and slower throughout the fight. Finally, it got to the point where he couldn't move because he had been impaled through the foot and a hole had burned through his shoulder (and it would've been over then if Bya had aimed for the heart). At this point both characters were fighting at full potential and aware of each other's abilites so Ichigo lost squarely here. However, Ichigo was saved because his hollow. Now I don't consider this "cheating" b/c the hollow is part Ichigo's innate strength just like a zanpakuto is part of a shinigami's innate strength. Still, the fact remains that the hollow is a separate entity which took over Ichigo's body and was the one fighting instead of Ichigo giving him a major advantage. This is unlike his current vizard form where he merely uses the hollow's power.

But anyways, a victory is a victory and since Byakuya acknowledged defeat, Ichigo indeed won the fight...and with his own strength. However, this doesn't indicate that Ichigo was superior or even equal to Byakuya is terms of skill and fighting ability at the time.
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Old 2006-12-29, 15:55   Link #24
hdx514
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
One thing I hate is how the term "fanboy" is flinged around this forum by people when someone supports the skills of a character and they don't agree with it. Don't talk about others being Byakuya fanboys then proceed to talk about Ichigo like he's the alpha and omega lest you be called an Ichigo fanboy (and just because he's the main character doesn't mean his supporters are immune from fanboyism).
fanboyism = people saying “byakuya/kenpachi/renji/ are all more awesome than ichigo” and desperately tries to find excuses for them, because it clearly contradicts the original creator’s intentions. suppose if bruce lee at peak physical condition lost to a 3 month old infant. the logical thing to do is acknowledge the awesomeness of the baby. those who seek lame excuses like “oh bruce was just careless”, and crying fluke! are the fanboys.

considering ichigo the most awesome with the greatest potential and growth rate is not fanboyism, because that’s what the original creator has shown us over and over again in these 250 chapters. and just how can ichigo be the main character of a shounen fighting manga and NOT alpha/omega? of course he is. whom do you think kubo has made into the center character of bleach? who do you think will be the one to end it all?

if you think you know better than the author and kubo is nothing but a huge ichigo/aizen fanboy, than maybe you should dump shounen and embrace seinen, cause shounens are most inevitably filled with main character fanboyism from the mangaka. otherwise please distinguish between acknowledging manga facts and fanboyism. considering urahara the no.1 tech genius and aizen currently the most powerful one in bleach: not fanboyism. we didn’t make up all those broken things about aizen, kubo did. dreaming about hitsugaya kicking aizen’s butt instead of ichigo: fanboyism, so is considering renji’s bankai more powerful than ichigo’s.

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He was basically able to use the same swordsmanship he had used since day one slaying menos,
and how many days has it been since day one? how is his bankai easy for him? have you totally forgotten that ichigo has next to zero swordsmanship training even for shikai?

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And yes, it is a fluke (or rather a plot device) that he got such a simple banaki which he could immediately use effectively. But he's still far from mastering it, which is why he couldn't maintain his power against Byakuya.
-and you know ichigo’s bankai, the speed of which should be crushing his bones from the start isn’t equally or even more difficult to manage than renji’s bankai? you know ichigo didn’t last way longer than renji because he is simply more awesome, which is a fact?

-renji’s bankai wasn’t worth crap against byakuya because he lacked bankai training, despite the fact that he’s used his swordmanship for decades and has even trained to get bankai for quite a while. so how come ichigo who has had next to zero swordmanship/bankai acquisition training compared to renji were able to be way more effective in battle?

-haven’t you considered renji’s bankai, which like most others, is huge, powerful and comes with an array of new moves could give a far greater power boost than ichigo’s tiny condensed bankai? haven’t you at least considered that ichigo and renji’s newly acquired bankais both have their pros and cons and in the end ichigo did way better in battle simply because he IS BETTER? what do you mean fluke? need i remind you that ichigo kicked both renji and ikkaku’s butts and flash k.o.ed 3 other VCs with his bare hands? what’s so fluky about those? if kubo gave ichigo a huge bankai instead, he’ll still do way better than renji against byakuya.

Quote:
However, Ichigo was saved because his hollow. Now I don't consider this "cheating" b/c the hollow is part Ichigo's innate strength just like a zanpakuto is part of a shinigami's innate strength. Still, the fact remains that the hollow is a separate entity which took over Ichigo's body and was the one fighting instead of Ichigo giving him a major advantage. This is unlike his current vizard form where he merely uses the hollow's power.
have you ever considered that it was actually byakuya who was saved from death by ichigo overcoming his hollow self?

and what major advantage are you talking about? it’s just an alter ego fighting with the same body. are you implying that all hollows fight shinigamis at an advantage? one’s hollow side is not supposed to be any stronger than one’s shinigami side. remember what aizen said about breaking one’s limit: NOT by succumbing to one’s hollow self, but utilizing BOTH shinigami and hollow powers.

the reason ichigo’s inner hollow was pwning byakuya was because it had better mastery of ichigo’s bankai moves, so logically an ichigo with better bankai control would totally pwn bakuya, which would be like, in 3 weeks. and i’m not finding excuses for ichigo, because we’re already at a point in the manga where
Spoiler:
again, this is manga stuff, not fanboyism. for those watching anime, it's understandable to be finding excuses for byakuya, because ichigo's been pretty much stagnant in the bounto arc. but you and those who i call fanboys clearly are up-to-date with the manga. so i ask you: what’s the point of finding excuses for an ancient fight with renji/byakuya when ichigo’s clearly beyond them now?
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Old 2006-12-29, 17:30   Link #25
Zu Ra
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Zangetsu > Ichigo

Yes they are one and the same same as clone hollow . A zanapkuto is the direct manifestation of ones's soul power . Let me stress on Direct ... Ichigo doesnt use al his soul power in combat , Its not under his control he cant manipulate and use it to his fullest ... if he could how would you explain his power ups ... Refer Ishida's tap lecture in ep 14 . Still have doubt then kindly explain surge in Reatsu during Bankai

Secondly Ichi and Aizen maybe the main antagonist and protagonist but that does change the fact that ones a dork and other is a hard gei reatard . Aizen by far is the lamest Anime Villians in history Even I Grand Fischer had more attitude and cool than Aizen lets not even compare Gin and Aizen ...... Its a natural thing , Protagnist need not be the most wise in an anime Take HXH Gon's dumb or Naruto where Naruto is hyper and Sauckay is just another excuse for an emo whiney angsty manbeatch .
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Old 2006-12-29, 18:04   Link #26
kagato3
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Originally Posted by hdx514 View Post
fanboyism = people saying “byakuya/kenpachi/renji/ are all more awesome than ichigo” and desperately tries to find excuses for them, because it clearly contradicts the original creator’s intentions. suppose if bruce lee at peak physical condition lost to a 3 month old infant. the logical thing to do is acknowledge the awesomeness of the baby. those who seek lame excuses like “oh bruce was just careless”, and crying fluke! are the fanboys.
Thats a bit of an extreame example. Ichigo has at least the basic ground work laid for fighting through "training" with his father and over a month of on the job training against hollow plus other short term but highly focused training. A more realistic example would be Bruce Lee vs. Joe Avrage Blackbelt. Bruce would win in a fight most of the time but if his mind is not init or he does not take his aponent seriously he could easly be defeated.

Quote:
considering ichigo the most awesome with the greatest potential and growth rate is not fanboyism, because that’s what the original creator has shown us over and over again in these 250 chapters. and just how can ichigo be the main character of a shounen fighting manga and NOT alpha/omega? of course he is. whom do you think kubo has made into the center character of bleach? who do you think will be the one to end it all?
True but bleach isn't DBZ where Goku out classes everyone else by a factor of 10. Ichigo has also failed to show he can keep up his full power for any long period of time just about everytime he has gone full out he has ended up passing out shortly afterward.

Quote:
if you think you know better than the author and kubo is nothing but a huge ichigo/aizen fanboy, than maybe you should dump shounen and embrace seinen, cause shounens are most inevitably filled with main character fanboyism from the mangaka. otherwise please distinguish between acknowledging manga facts and fanboyism. considering urahara the no.1 tech genius and aizen currently the most powerful one in bleach: not fanboyism. we didn’t make up all those broken things about aizen, kubo did. dreaming about hitsugaya kicking aizen’s butt instead of ichigo: fanboyism, so is considering renji’s bankai more powerful than ichigo’s.


and how many days has it been since day one? how is his bankai easy for him? have you totally forgotten that ichigo has next to zero swordsmanship training even for shikai?
Not quite correct Ichigo did go through sword training with Urahara. He has also been under going a form of combat training by his father for an unknow period of time in the form of suprize atacks. He also has had an unknown amount of formal matail arts training in his childhood.



Quote:
-and you know ichigo’s bankai, the speed of which should be crushing his bones from the start isn’t equally or even more difficult to manage than renji’s bankai? you know ichigo didn’t last way longer than renji because he is simply more awesome, which is a fact?
The resualts of the fights had more to do with the advantages of each of the fighters then their power levels

Ichigo's strengths in his bankai are a lighter more controlable weapon, a huge increase in speed and reaction time. His disadvantage is that his bankai damages him, so the longer he uses it the slower and weaker he gets.

Renji's strengths are a greater damage capablity. His disatvantages are that he is now working with a weapon that is 10 time the size of his normal one and it is easly disrupted with kiduo spells.

Part of the reason Renji fair so poorly vs Byakuya is that all Byakuya's strengths are Renji's weaknesses. Byakuya disrubted Renji's atack timeing with kiduo then held him in place with a spell then beat the pulp out of him. Ichigo doesn't have the same weaknesses, he was too fast at the start of the fight for Byakuya to lock on to him with kiduo, he was also fast enuff to be able to parry all Byakuya's blades, this countered Byakuya's strengths. As the fight dragged on it began to move more into Byakuya's favor and had Ichigo's hollow not taken over its clear he would have lost. I'll also point out that by the end of the fight Byakuya had lost a good deal of his resovle on the battle do to his conflict on his 2 vows so instead of draging the fight out he go aslong with Ichigo's 1 final strike determans the winner method.


Quote:
-renji’s bankai wasn’t worth crap against byakuya because he lacked bankai training, despite the fact that he’s used his swordmanship for decades and has even trained to get bankai for quite a while. so how come ichigo who has had next to zero swordmanship/bankai acquisition training compared to renji were able to be way more effective in battle?
As stated above Renji's weaknesses are Byakuya's strengths and Ichigo atvantages counter most if not all of Byakuya's strengths in the short term untill his bankai damages him enuff to slow him to a managable level for Byakuya.
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Old 2006-12-29, 22:43   Link #27
hdx514
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Secondly Ichi and Aizen maybe the main antagonist and protagonist but that does change the fact that ones a dork and other is a hard gei reatard....
acknowledging one's power =/= love. often times people even loathe something because of its power (atomic bombs, and i assume the case with you calling aizen the worst villian ever). the iraqis can hate the U.S. and say she's the worse nation ever, but they cannot deny the power of the U.S. army

there're several characters i like in bleach but granted they're not ichigo/aizen. however, bleach is a shounen fighting manga, and i read shounen manga mainly for its displays of power (duh). if you don't like those, stick to drama/romance

gon is rubbish because he is by far not the one with the greatest potential/growth in HXH. killua is his age and is far more effective. several members of the phantom brigade are only a bit older yet far more powerful, not to mention high ranking chimera ants which has 10x growth rate compared to him and are born with nen abilities. this is why togashi stalled the manga, he made chimeras way too powerful and worse, faster growers with greater potential than the protagonists and now he doesn't know how to realisticly level up the protagonist to defeat the royal guards.

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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Thats a bit of an extreame example. ...
no, yours is bad because you're selectively ignoring the huge age difference between human and shinigami. ichigo is a true teenager but byakuya is hundreds of years old. he became captain half a century ago. he had bankai then. he thinks it takes at least decades to get bankai. that's a minimum of over a century of training. renji and rukia entered the shinigami academy also about half a century ago, ikkaku was renji's senpai. of course it is bruce lee fighting infant

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Ichigo has also failed to show he can keep up his full power for any long period of time just about everytime he has gone full out he has ended up passing out shortly afterward.
i don't believe ichigo's even shown his true full power yet. and you should thank kubo for not having ichigo maintain full power for extended periods, otherwise we wouldn't be talking about kenpachi/byakuya's honourable defeat, we'd be talking about total pawnage

Quote:
Not quite correct Ichigo did go through sword training with Urahara. He has also been under going a form of combat training by his father for an unknow period of time in the form of suprize atacks. He also has had an unknown amount of formal matail arts training in his childhood.
again, next to zero training COMPARED TO [insert name of captain/VC]
plus shinigami combat is on a completely different level compared to human combat and it's about ultilizing one's reiatsu, you can't say human martial arts training matters until we see a great japanese warrior appearing in S.S.'s upper echelon

Quote:
The resualts of the fights had more to do with the advantages of each of the fighters then their power levels
keep denying that ichigo's power level/potential is far beyond renji, a clear fact in the manga only further cements one as a renji fanboy. please explain how shikai renji and his senior ikkaku got owned by n00b ichigo who's no where close to realizing his full shikai potential. what's the specific advantage ichigo's shikai had over renji and ikkaku's shikai? please explain how
Spoiler:

i believe already wrote a post somewhere about renji/ichigo/byakuya fight, and you didn't answer those questions, so i'm not about to do that again. i can pretty much just replace "ichigo" with "renji" and "fast/speed" with "huge/powerful" in your argument above and end up concluding that ichigo’s bankai is a lot weaker than renji's and renji's advantage counters byakuya's strength, he did poorly because he sucks. always remember, if there's anything huge and impossible to control in bleach, it's not renji's bankai, but ichigo's reiatsu. you think ichigo’s bankai is easy huh. if renji fights with ichigo's massive condensed bankai reiatsu, controllability is the last thing he'll have to worry about as he'll most definitely be crushed before byakuya has the chance to draw his sword.
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Old 2006-12-30, 03:07   Link #28
kagato3
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no, yours is bad because you're selectively ignoring the huge age difference between human and shinigami. ichigo is a true teenager but byakuya is hundreds of years old. he became captain half a century ago. he had bankai then. he thinks it takes at least decades to get bankai. that's a minimum of over a century of training. renji and rukia entered the shinigami academy also about half a century ago, ikkaku was renji's senpai. of course it is bruce lee fighting infant
You seem to be missing the huge stagnation factor in SS. Most if not all the Shinigami are decades old at the least but none of them have shown even a hint of the wisdom, knowlage, or skill that should come with thier true age. It seems that it takes about 10 times longer for someone from SS to learn anything then a human does


Quote:
again, next to zero training COMPARED TO [insert name of captain/VC]
plus shinigami combat is on a completely different level compared to human combat and it's about ultilizing one's reiatsu, you can't say human martial arts training matters until we see a great japanese warrior appearing in S.S.'s upper echelon
Well other then kiduo, reiatsu seems to be all about will power and focus, which is a large componet in most martial arts training.
Spoiler:


Quote:
keep denying that ichigo's power level/potential is far beyond renji, a clear fact in the manga only further cements one as a renji fanboy. please explain how shikai renji and his senior ikkaku got owned by n00b ichigo who's no where close to realizing his full shikai potential. what's the specific advantage ichigo's shikai had over renji and ikkaku's shikai? please explain how
I have never denyed that Ichigo's potential is greater then Renji, what I do deny is your opionin that Ichigo is an ubergod and unless your Azien or Ichigo you're trash. Ichigo has yet to walk away from a major fight as a clear winner. The second Renji/Ichigo fight he took almost as much damage as Renji did and his life was saved by a well placed hollow mask. In the Kenpachi/Ichigo fight He did take as much damage as Kenpachi and fell first, again if not for a well placed hollow mask and a timely rescue after the fight he would have been dead. Ichigo had started loseing in the Byakuya fight to the point that his hollow self had to take over and Byakuya was holding back.

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Spoiler:
Spoiler:


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i believe already wrote a post somewhere about renji/ichigo/byakuya fight, and you didn't answer those questions, so i'm not about to do that again. i can pretty much just replace "ichigo" with "renji" and "fast/speed" with "huge/powerful" in your argument above and end up concluding that ichigo’s bankai is a lot weaker than renji's and renji's advantage counters byakuya's strength, he did poorly because he sucks. always remember, if there's anything huge and impossible to control in bleach, it's not renji's bankai, but ichigo's reiatsu. you think ichigo’s bankai is easy huh. if renji fights with ichigo's massive condensed bankai reiatsu, controllability is the last thing he'll have to worry about as he'll most definitely be crushed before byakuya has the chance to draw his sword.
I had answeared the questions you just ignored any info I brought forth as irelevent and failed to back up your postion as you were claiming that the Byakuya/Renji and Byakuya/Ichigo fights proved that Ichigo's Shikai was more powerfull then Renji's Bankai. You can't "just replace "ichigo" with "renji" and "fast/speed" with "huge/powerful" in your argument above and end up concluding that ichigo’s bankai is a lot weaker than renji's and renji's advantage counters byakuya's strength" because Renji's atvantages do not counter Byakuya's strengths. Byakuya's strengths are that he is a master of kiduo and he can atack with a million blades from any angle. Ichigo's speed makes him a nearly impossable target to hit with kiduo and he isn't pertuclerly weak to binding spells, Renji's "huge/powerful" bankai makes him a big target and one of his bankai's weaknesses is that it is easy to throw off the timeing of it with kiduo. Ichigo's speed allows him to parry all of Byakuya's blades and move in to atack before he recovers, Renji's "huge/powerful" bankai allows him to play turtle makeing him an immobile large target that is weak to kiduo.

Again you are missing the point the weaknesses inheirent in Renji's Bankai gave Byakuya a huge advantage against him. Where as Ichigo's speed allowed him to get the uper had against Byakuya untill his weakness damaged him enuff so that he slowed to the point that Byakuya wasable to start keeping up with him.
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Old 2007-01-01, 13:54   Link #29
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I dont believe this argument. Ichigo won every major fight in soul society becauase of plot devices. Its very simple. The design of his shikai and bankai are really convenient as well. His shikai is basically a normal zanpakto with more "Damage". It doesnt have anything special, getsuga tenshou is a generic ability that isnt tied to his shikai. His bankai is basically higher speed, which means that if the writer wants ichigo to lose a fight for plot purposes, all he has to do is come up with "The enemy's spiritual pressure is too strong for ichigo to hurt him!".

P.S. Everyone's bankai time is limited. Ichigo's just had a more dramatic "time out" effect, partly because he had been training with his bankai for like, less than 2 mins before the byakuya fight.
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Old 2007-01-01, 18:17   Link #30
Zu Ra
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Originally Posted by Question
Everyone's bankai time is limited. .
IMO no , Using Renji and Ichi to validate the above statement wont be correct . Both just acheived Bankai so it would be diffcult for them to maintain it . There is a certain limit but depends more on the Bankai Control of the user . Bya went Bankai twice on same day .

Also Ichi couldnt control his Bankai but his Bankai was their till the very end even when he got pawned by Aizen he was still in Bankai form . He had a fallback that was controlling Bankai reatsu which is immense as its Ichigo .
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Old 2007-01-01, 21:38   Link #31
hdx514
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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You seem to be missing the huge stagnation factor in SS. Most if not all the Shinigami are decades old at the least but none of them have shown even a hint of the wisdom, knowlage, or skill that should come with thier true age. It seems that it takes about 10 times longer for someone from SS to learn anything then a human does
someone who's 1/10 as slow with things as an average human, doesn't matter what age he/she lives to, would always appear to be very obviously and severely mentally retarded. care to point out the signs of this apparent severe mental retardation in rukia and byakuya?
you're missing the whole point that IS my point. i've been trying to tell you fanboys all along that unfortunately, kubo himself is (comparatively) an ichigo fanboy and him and any shounen mangaka out there all show vastly different amounts of love for different characters. not obvious enough for you that he made the shinigamis look stagnant so ichigo could shine? ichigo improves 10x faster than anyone from S.S. because he's the main kid and by default everyone else's stupid compared to him, that's the law of physics in shounen, it applies beyond S.S., beyond bleach. excuses? mate this is the way of shounen. nobody forced you to read all these far-fetched level-ups, plot devices, degradation of supporting cast etc. so leave it anytime you want. you can even try to sue kubo for unequal treatment
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Well other then kiduo, reiatsu seems to be all about will power and focus, which is a large componet in most martial arts training.
really? even though will power gets you a one way ticket into the stomach of a grizzly while reiatsu let you toss around a king kong (jidanbo)? it's also funny how you just ignored 3 of the 4 DIFFERENT shinigami combat areas: zanjutsu, hoho and hakuda, the first of which is what shinigami ichigo's all about. just how much zanjutsu training did ichigo have before turning shinigami?

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I have never denyed that Ichigo's potential is greater then Renji, what I do deny is your opionin that Ichigo is an ubergod
sorry i don't know what an "ubergod" is exactly, but let's see: no.1 popular, no.1 central, no.1 important, no.1 growth rate, no.1 potential, no.1 protagonist, no.1...and sooner or later, top tier, if not no.1 warrior. that sounds right about "ubergod" to me. oh, was that my idea? god, i didn't know kubo tite was my alter-ego!
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unless your Azien or Ichigo you're trash.
no, you said that. urahara could mess aizen up big time because kubo has built him into the no.1 genius in his own right. the characters that are useless are those that a. has been outclassed by ichigo b. isn't known for fast growth since forever c. isn't known for his special abilities/super intellect and d. isn't female (no romance). why? again, the way of shounen, look around for yourself. as the hero, ichigo's power serves as reference in the series the main bleach power level increases in accordance with his growth. in S.S., the ultimate thing was bankai. now, it's
Spoiler:

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Ichigo has yet to walk away from a major fight as a clear winner. The second Renji/Ichigo fight he took almost as much damage as Renji did and his life was saved by a well placed hollow mask. In the Kenpachi/Ichigo fight He did take as much damage as Kenpachi and fell first, again if not for a well placed hollow mask and a timely rescue after the fight he would have been dead. Ichigo had started loseing in the Byakuya fight to the point that his hollow self had to take over and Byakuya was holding back.
wrong. apparently your definition of a "major fight" = "ambiguous fight". missed the bit where ichigo trashed 3 VC without his sword? oh i'm sure you're gonna say "these just insignificant cannon fodders". realize that renji/ikkaku in their shikai also belong in the same class as these "insignificant cannon fodders"? the likes of rukia achieves easy victory because the enemy is insignificant. with ichigo, his GROWTH makes previously formiddable opponents look insignificant. ignoring that is like ignoring ichigo's growth.
in the latter half of the Kenpachi/Ichigo fight ichigo was giving more damage to kenpachi (re-read bleach before you try to argue this) and his zanpakutou didn't break, again if not for yachiru's timely rescue and 4th division treatment kenpachi would have been dead AND BLEACH WOULD HAVE MOVED ON (dare you say the same for ichigo). and ICHIGO was kicking byakuya's butt in his second bankai form. FYI, yoruichi taking ichigo away, that's rescue. byakuya surviving the ichigo fight that's saved, because hollow ichigo dissapearing had nothing to do with byakuya's strength. relying on one's zanpakutou/hollow/kidou/other forms of own strength? ARE NOT. we're 250 chapters into bleach so don't tell me you're still confusing zanpakutou with "random melee weapon", kidou with "guns n bombs" and one's hollow/shinigami self with "some other guy"

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Spoiler:
2 words: re-read bleach.
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I had answeared the questions you just ignored any info I brought forth as irelevent and failed to back up your postion as you were claiming that the Byakuya/Renji and Byakuya/Ichigo fights proved that Ichigo's Shikai was more powerfull then Renji's Bankai.
first, i believe it was you who said that renji's bankai could be stronger than ichgio's bankai, i don't even want to comment on that.
second, you were the one ignoring information all along. yes, i was talking ichigo SHIKAI vs. renji BANKAI, which means ichigo's BANKAI has absolutely nothing to do with this, and whatever advantages he possesses in BANKAI mode is utterly irrelevant. yet i remember someone kept bringing bankai ichigo up. so, regarding ichigo's shikai vs. renji's bankai, this was the question i asked, a question so far no one on your side has given any satisfactory answer:
why would byakuya, who clearly despises ichigo more than renji, who a minute ago said the brat was 1000 years too early to see bankai wasted no time to eat his own words and go bankai on ichigo after the kid injured him? wasn't it very logically because despite byakuya's arrogance, he knew he needs bankai to give shikai ichigo a proper pawnage? and since ichigo's shikai has none of those "advantages" claimed by you, can we not conclude that ichigo's shikai during his byakuya fight > renji bankai during his byakuya fight?
there are other evidences that strongly suggest that ichigo's shikai is many times more powerful than a VC's shikai
1. the fact that he easily stopped the hougyoku which are used to execute Captains with his shikai.
2. the fact that he very easily overpowered 3 VCs with bare hands. does this suggest that shikai ichigo is at least 5-10 times more powerful than shikai VCs? hell yes. how much power boost does bankai offer? 5-10 times, for experienced users
3. ichigo's shikai has obviously improved during the bankai training, as he got to know his zanpakutou much better. but he ended the fight with kenpachi before his bankai training. instead of arguing who's stronger, i'll just look at kenpachi's reaction after the fight: lying there shouting "i want to be stronger" and very eagerly trying to learn the name of his zanpakutou. while the likes of ikkaku and previous 11th captain with bankai only made kenpachi more overconfident of himself, a brat like ichigo without bankai for the first time in kenpachi's life made him realize his own weakness in battle. what does that tell you?

now, please provide evidence, or suggestion, or hints in the manga, that led you to believe that renji's bankai > ichigo shikai

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Renji's atvantages do not counter Byakuya's strengths. Byakuya's strengths are that he is a master of kiduo and he can atack with a million blades from any angle. Ichigo's speed makes him a nearly impossable target to hit with kiduo and he isn't pertuclerly weak to binding spells, Renji's "huge/powerful" bankai makes him a big target and one of his bankai's weaknesses is that it is easy to throw off the timeing of it with kiduo. Ichigo's speed allows him to parry all of Byakuya's blades and move in to atack before he recovers, Renji's "huge/powerful" bankai allows him to play turtle makeing him an immobile large target that is weak to kiduo.
renji's huge bankai can very effectively work both offensively and defensively. working as a huge and powerful shield it makes him a totally impossible target to hit by the petals; on the offense, renji's huge and powerful bankai is very suited to super long range power attacks, makeing him immune to anything but super long range kidou. ichigo's tiny but fast bankai on the other hand means that before he got to bankai getsuga he had to get very close to attack thus making him possible, albeit difficult target to hit. and probability wise, impossible < difficult. on the defense, due to his tiny bankai he'll literally have to deflect every those millions of blades one at a time and a slight timing error/overshoot would result in himself getting hit. not to mention that byakuya was using bankai on him while only shikai on renji and since renji's bankai has extra power moves he has much more options in battle, such as attacking simultaneously with many sections while ichigo has but 1 short range sword. and again since it's tiny compared to renji's huge and powerful bankai the damage inflicted is naturally much less so byakuya wouldn't have to worry as much.

again you are missing the point because both bankais have their pros and cons and your "ichigo's bankai has inherent advantage" is just a subjective view as my analysis. the only thing to conclude is ichigo is inherently way better than renji period, it's kubo's subjective prejuidice but since he's the god of bleach, it's objective. recall what happens to characters who deny the shounen hero's awesomeness in manga? they join the army of the loosers and become renji's buddies, no matter how far-fetched it might appear to you. so seriously, next time pick someone else. cause if you're arguing against the awesomeness of a shounen hero, chances are, you'll loose.
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Old 2007-01-02, 11:16   Link #32
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by hdx514 View Post
someone who's 1/10 as slow with things as an average human, doesn't matter what age he/she lives to, would always appear to be very obviously and severely mentally retarded. care to point out the signs of this apparent severe mental retardation in rukia and byakuya?
you're missing the whole point that IS my point. i've been trying to tell you fanboys all along that unfortunately, kubo himself is (comparatively) an ichigo fanboy and him and any shounen mangaka out there all show vastly different amounts of love for different characters. not obvious enough for you that he made the shinigamis look stagnant so ichigo could shine? ichigo improves 10x faster than anyone from S.S. because he's the main kid and by default everyone else's stupid compared to him, that's the law of physics in shounen, it applies beyond S.S., beyond bleach. excuses? mate this is the way of shounen. nobody forced you to read all these far-fetched level-ups, plot devices, degradation of supporting cast etc. so leave it anytime you want. you can even try to sue kubo for unequal treatment
Yeah, Bleach is shounen and we all know how it works. Ichigo will grow faster than the other characters and will also eventually become the strongest. However, that obviously doesn't mean at any given point and time Ichigo is the strongest character there is. In fact, in most shounen, the hero is actually weaker than the 'main' opponent of the current arc and only barely wins through special circumstances. Usually the hero doesn't fully surpass his opponent until the next arc, where it's necessary to have another power-up against an even stronger opponent. For the Soul Society arc, the 'main' opponent was Byakuya and for the current arc it appears to be Grimmjow. Of course, the final main opponent will be Aizen. Ichigo is probably just now reaching a level where you could say he would definitely pwn Bya in an all-out fight (and that is questionable given the short amount of time he can maintain his mask). By the end of this arc, Ichigo will probably have just enough power to barely match Grimm's released state and there's little doubt he'll need a special plot device to accomplish that. Point is, even though Ichigo is the main character and managed victory, you can't claim Ichigo to be a better fighter (in terms of skill, not natural talent) than Byakuya when they fought in the SS arc. Which is the point of this thread, not his growth, not his eventual strength, not the author's apparent favoritism towards him. Was Ichigo presented as a superior fighter to Byukuya during the SS arc? I think it is debatable.

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wrong. apparently your definition of a "major fight" = "ambiguous fight". missed the bit where ichigo trashed 3 VC without his sword? oh i'm sure you're gonna say "these just insignificant cannon fodders". realize that renji/ikkaku in their shikai also belong in the same class as these "insignificant cannon fodders"? the likes of rukia achieves easy victory because the enemy is insignificant. with ichigo, his GROWTH makes previously formiddable opponents look insignificant. ignoring that is like ignoring ichigo's growth.
They were cannon fodder. Those VC's are minor characters and don't receive any development or a part in the plot. Just as Ichigo is made to be strong because he is the hero, other characters are made weak because they are minor characters. That's why they were chosen to be Ichigo's first victims to show his growth. Conversely, that's why a character of the same rank (Renji) and a character of lower rank (Ikkaku) were given bankai, because they are more important to the story. Also, you should know there are different levels of strength even among shinigami of the same rank. Kenpachi fought and nearly defeated 2 captains at once. Is this to say that if you took any two given captains, Kenpachi could own them both? Ichigo's defeat of those VC's only show he was captain-level, it did not demonstrate any outstanding power in terms of fighting on a captain-level.

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Spoiler:
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in the latter half of the Kenpachi/Ichigo fight ichigo was giving more damage to kenpachi (re-read bleach before you try to argue this) and his zanpakutou didn't break, again if not for yachiru's timely rescue and 4th division treatment kenpachi would have been dead AND BLEACH WOULD HAVE MOVED ON (dare you say the same for ichigo). and ICHIGO was kicking byakuya's butt in his second bankai form. FYI, yoruichi taking ichigo away, that's rescue. byakuya surviving the ichigo fight that's saved, because hollow ichigo dissapearing had nothing to do with byakuya's strength. relying on one's zanpakutou/hollow/kidou/other forms of own strength? ARE NOT. we're 250 chapters into bleach so don't tell me you're still confusing zanpakutou with "random melee weapon", kidou with "guns n bombs" and one's hollow/shinigami self with "some other guy"
Ichigo was giving more damage to Kenpachi, because Kenpachi was making no effort to evade or defend. He's somewhat of a berserker and a masochist so physical damage means little difference to him. And I don't see the point of mentioning how he was saved by Yachiru, as Ichigo could've just as easily have laid there and bled to death until Youruichi arrrived. Yet Kenpachi was still standing after Ichigo lost consciousness and could've delivered a death blow if he had wished. So Ichigo won this fight because Kenpachi acknowledged defeat and not because Ichigo physically overpowered him.

Yes, Ichigo's hollow side is part of Ichigo's strength and like a zanpakuto it is also separate entity. However unlike Zangetsu, it was not an entity that was Ichigo fighting with it's an entity that was fighting for him. You don't hear people saying "Bruce Banner kicks ass", people say "the Hulk kicks ass" because they are two different entities sharing the same body. Ichigo didn't know the fighting style and techniques Hichigo was using and his power was greater than that of Ichigo's. That's right. The hollow adds a power boost. Earlier you stated that Hichigo simply was a better user of bankai, but he also provides a great increase of reiatsu which is why Ichigo is currently focusing on tapping into his power instead of training his bankai. There's a difference.

Vizard Ichigo=Ichigo using his hollow to increase his own skills and abilites

Hichigo=The hollow taking over Ichigo and fighting on his behalf

Hichigo was fighting Byakuya not Ichigo.

Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2007-01-02 at 11:56.
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Old 2007-01-02, 11:35   Link #33
KuchikiByakuya
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....Heh....Wrong....H-Ichigo only injured Byakuya's shoulder, he didin't do anythin' more ...Afterwards 2mins later....Ichigo got himself again...but as told....Whever he turns to H-Ichigo, he get refreshed alot...That's what he figured out by fightin' against his shadow side....=_=
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Old 2007-01-02, 19:03   Link #34
hdx514
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Ichigo is probably just now reaching a level where you could say he would definitely pwn Bya in an all-out fight....By the end of this arc, Ichigo will probably have just enough power to barely match Grimm's released state and there's little doubt he'll need a special plot device to accomplish that. Point is, even though Ichigo is the main character and managed victory, you can't claim Ichigo to be a better fighter (in terms of skill, not natural talent) than Byakuya when they fought in the SS arc. Which is the point of this thread, not his growth, not his eventual strength, not the author's apparent favoritism towards him. Was Ichigo presented as a superior fighter to Byukuya during the SS arc? I think it is debatable.
i'll even go further to say that it's NOT debatable. ichigo the shinigami presented in S.S. was definitely NOT superior to byakuya. but my point is exactly what you stated before that. the main enemy/main level of the current arc >> byakuya. and ichigo has moved on and will soon be facing this new, much more powerful enemy. so we shall move on with him. it's not like the people arguing against me aren't up to date with the manga. whether byakuya's bankai is stronger than ichigo back in S.S., whether ichigo's shikai was weaker than a gillian back in karakura etc, they don't really matter now.
Spoiler:

you simply cannot talke about the main shounen kid without considering his growth. his amazing growth was one of the main reasons why he did so well in the byakuya fight
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Old 2007-01-03, 04:52   Link #35
KNETTER2000
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IMO no , Using Renji and Ichi to validate the above statement wont be correct . Both just acheived Bankai so it would be diffcult for them to maintain it . There is a certain limit but depends more on the Bankai Control of the user . Bya went Bankai twice on same day .

Also Ichi couldnt control his Bankai but his Bankai was their till the very end even when he got pawned by Aizen he was still in Bankai form . He had a fallback that was controlling Bankai reatsu which is immense as its Ichigo .
Ichi went bankai twice too on one day.

He went Bankai at the beginning of the fight with Byakuya
After the fight ended he was still in Bankai, and efven when he talked to Orihime and everyone else, he was in Bankai

But when he was carried down the stairs by Chad, he was not in Bankaiform. He had Shikai zangetsu wrapped and well on his back. After he got the word that Rukia was again on the hill, they went back.. and when Aizen tried to kill a kneeled Renji, Ichi showed up again in Bankai form.
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Old 2007-08-01, 19:28   Link #36
darrol2
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that is actully really weird cause when ichigo fased ikkaku ikkaku didn't use bankai either???and he could've
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Old 2007-08-02, 02:58   Link #37
Scep
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In somewhere as populated as soul society, using something like bankai releases a huge amount of reiatsu. Instantly the whole SS knows you have bankai. Bad choice.
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Old 2007-08-04, 10:32   Link #38
WarpObscura
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Isn't that phrased wrongly? Doesn't using bankai release lots of reiatsu no matter where it's used?

Just a note.
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Old 2007-08-04, 15:07   Link #39
-Shana-
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I didn't read all of the replies so sorry if I say something that was already said. And also, I don't read the manga so feel free to correct me.

Someone said they didn't like how Ichigo had just gotten Bankai and beat someone that had mastered it. Well, Ichigo is already stated to have more potential than Urahara, who was a captain. He is the Gohan of DBZ, the Naruto of..Naruto. You can only expect for him to be naturally strong.


Like many have said, Byakuya could have finished Ichigo off at any given time, unfortunately he is too noble for that. Alot like Sesshomaru of Inuyasha.

But like others have said, Ichigo could have finished Byakuya at one point. Too bad he was showing off.

As for Ichigo's shikai being > than Renji's bankai, well Byakuya definately had a more difficult time with Ichigo than Renji. But that doesn't mean Ichigo's shikai is better than Renji's bankai. Renji doesn't show any signs of great speed, and if Ichigo were to fight Renji, I could guarantee he wouldn't be in shikai.

People think all animes are like DBZ. Which would be A>B>C<A. Other animes actually have elements that have certain weaknesses.
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Old 2009-06-18, 19:49   Link #40
WONDERMIKE
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Sorry for digging this oldie out, but I want you to guess who could have been the first person to see Senbonzakura's senkei form. Knowing Kubo he most likely already have forgotten that line,.. whatever, my guess would be it's connected to his parents death and/or the shiba clan.

Spoiler for what I'm referring to:
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