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Old 2007-01-10, 19:03   Link #61
Zu Ra
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Ikkaku >> Renji for a simple reason that when the first crop of Numeros attacked Ikkaku was the only shinigami who defeated his opponent without lifting the limit .

Ikkaku Vs Ichigo , IMO Ikkaku had Bankai even then coz he was training Renji with his Banakai . He didnt use it just for the sole reason he maybe aapointed Fuku or Improper Bankai control . Also Ikkaku is helping Yumi get Banakai now . Just recall the scene where Renji is about to die at hands of Bya . In the flashbacks hears/see Ikkaku's voice first .
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Old 2007-01-10, 19:25   Link #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
Ikkaku >> Renji for a simple reason that when the first crop of Numeros attacked Ikkaku was the only shinigami who defeated his opponent without lifting the limit .
That would make Ikkaku stronger than Hitsugaya too...
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Old 2007-01-10, 19:32   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
That would make Ikkaku stronger than Hitsugaya too...
Not really Hitsugaya's Numeros opponent was Shawlong Qufang ( 11 ) while Ikkaku's oponent was Edorad Leones ( 13 ) while Renji's opponent was Il Forte Grantz ranked 15 .

Despite just being a numeros Shawlong Qufang was in a league of his own he even lectured Shiro on his Bankai and also understood shiro Bankai better than Toshiro .
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Old 2007-01-10, 21:51   Link #64
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi
Ikkaku >> Renji for a simple reason that when the first crop of Numeros attacked Ikkaku was the only shinigami who defeated his opponent without lifting the limit .

Ikkaku Vs Ichigo , IMO Ikkaku had Bankai even then coz he was training Renji with his Banakai . He didnt use it just for the sole reason he maybe aapointed Fuku or Improper Bankai control . Also Ikkaku is helping Yumi get Banakai now . Just recall the scene where Renji is about to die at hands of Bya . In the flashbacks hears/see Ikkaku's voice first .
Ikkaku is Renji's senpai and has had bankai longer than him but I'm not really sure if he's stronger than Renji at this point though, but that's just opinion. I'm not totally convinced either way.


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Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
Not really Hitsugaya's Numeros opponent was Shawlong Qufang ( 11 ) while Ikkaku's oponent was Edorad Leones ( 13 ) while Renji's opponent was Il Forte Grantz ranked 15 .

Despite just being a numeros Shawlong Qufang was in a league of his own he even lectured Shiro on his Bankai and also understood shiro Bankai better than Toshiro .
The ranking according to power only applies to Espada. Numeros are ranked according to order of creation, I think. But I'll agree that Shawlong appeared to be the strongest and smartest Numeros. However, we don't know Edorad's strength compared Grantz's. Anyways, Ikkaku defeated his opponent without lifting the limit because of the way he uses his bankai. He pours all his reiatsu and concentration into attacking power, sacrificing speed and defense. Then he uses every last ounce of his strength to attack totally disregarding any concern for his own life. In other words, his bankai attack was suicidal and not practical for anyone who plans to live though the battle. Even Ikkaku considered himself "extremely lucky" to be alive after the attack.
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Old 2007-01-10, 22:26   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu;
The ranking according to power only applies to Espada. Numeros are ranked according to order of creation, I think. But I'll agree that Shawlong appeared to be the strongest and smartest Numeros. However, we don't know Edorad's strength compared Grantz's.
Ranking among numeros is debatable IMO its a rank but thats debatable . If we say ranking is void seeing the resp numeros are on the same level as each other Grantz ==== Edorad . Grantz was also injured at the hands of Ururu


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Ikkaku defeated his opponent without lifting the limit because of the way he uses his bankai. He pours all his reiatsu and concentration into attacking power, sacrificing speed and defense. Then he uses every last ounce of his strength to attack totally disregarding any concern for his own life. In other words, his bankai attack was suicidal and not practical for anyone who plans to live though the battle
Yes Ikkaku is suicidal and just like Zaraki winning means everything . Thats how Ikkaku has always been if you remember during Ichigo Vs Ikkaku he did exactly the very same .he enjoys pushing boundaries even if its at the expense of his own life . If you did notice Ikkaku reversed the roles of prey and predator in the numeros fight .

Correct me if I am wrong here the limit was set to 20% . With 20 % of his power he could defeat an numeros at the expense of his life . While the others were finding it hard to survive , I am talking defese here . Shawlong if we consider an anomaly , can be left out of this but when that comparision is made to others , its shows the diffrence

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. Even Ikkaku considered himself "extremely lucky" to be alive after the attack.
Thats a pun which Ikkaku keeps running from his very first appearance Luck Luck Dance . When he loses to Ichigo he claims he is unlucky . Its said in that pretext today I am lucky has more to do with his loss to Ichigo
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Old 2007-01-10, 22:38   Link #66
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Um remember Ikkaku was never limited in the first place. Only Captains and Vc's are limited.
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Old 2007-01-10, 22:45   Link #67
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Um remember Ikkaku was never limited in the first place. Only Captains and Vc's are limited.
That has more to do with reatsu than rank . In terms of Reatsu even Yumi has a Fuku level Reatsu , Ikkaku >> Yumi . Reatsu limits are put so as to not to affect the living . Fukus outclass 3 and 4 th seats in terms of raw reatsu . Ikkaku may not have the rank but he has the reatsu of Fuku and at that point a Taicho just as Renji due to Bankai .

Also when Ikkkaku went Bankai if the limits were not in place wouldnt there be a disturbance in surroundings . IF my memory serves me right the Spirit Barrier around Shiro Rangiku and Renji was increased before the limits were released

EDIT : There was a limit in place even for Rukia CHPTR 204 Pg 12

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Old 2007-01-11, 01:47   Link #68
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okay time to clear things up

@ sceptileex:
one does NOT need bankai to become captain. if one can waste a current captain in front of 200 divsion members with hands, no bankai, no shikai, one's the captain. if one managed to get all other captains to vouch for him, one's a captain

@Geta Boshi:
a. ikkaku DID NOT have a limit. it's specifically stated that the 20% limits are only imposed upon captains and VCs. it's clearly stated that ikkaku's bankai is a secret known to few. ikkaku most probably > renji because he was renji's senpai, taught him bankai and renji obviously respects him. ikkaku is crap because he was pretty easily defeated by rookie ichigo at a time when ichigo's attacks couldn't even scratch kenpachi. despite having bankai then he chose to lie on the ground like a coward. suicidal my butt. he's crap because at his peak he's slightly stronger than a gillian arrancar in the human world.

b. it's clearly stated that the ranking of the numeros is irrelevant. we know that d-roy's the only trash, and that implies the rest shouldn't be VERY far apart, but that's all we know. only shiro fanboys would come up with stuff like "shawlong is in a league of his own". the only one in a league of his own there was grimmjow.

c. you obviously did not read the pic you posted with any detail. the increase in space stasis was because yumichika expected all the ENEMIES to experience the same level of power boost as edorad. that is unless you believe ichigo's ALSO fighting grimmjow at 1/5, and grimmjow's just rubbish like the rest. in this case i really hope you would sell me some of that stuff you're smoking
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Old 2007-01-11, 01:49   Link #69
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double post
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Old 2007-01-11, 06:58   Link #70
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I believe the limit was to all VC and Captain Class so just anyone on that level and they knew Ikkaku was atleast VC Class
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Old 2007-01-11, 16:44   Link #71
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i know this is the manga thread specifically for ch258, but i can't myself...

i just wanted to talk about episode 110 without worrying about spoilers.

everyone is talking about how the new ED is spoilerific. well, i know that ulquiorra showed up in the last OP on the special frame once, so he's already been spoiled. Yami is new and he's in the ed behind Ulquiorra. they do show ishiin in shinigami garb, but that only spoils ep 111, so not that big a deal. they do show Hiyori Sarugaki. i believe that spoils a character that probably won't appear for another 13 episodes if not longer. other than that, i don't see why the ED is that big a deal.

now, i think they did an awesome job with Shinji's seiyu and especially with Ryuken's seiyu. just what i wanted them to sound like (i know, we heard Ryuken once way back around ep 15 or so, but stil...)

from the episode titles, it looks like we'll see Rukia's shikai around episode 115.


btw, i don't like to get involved with these things, but why do you have to be so rude hdx514? just have the discussion instead of sounding like a d1ck and telling people they're smoking crack.
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Old 2007-01-11, 19:18   Link #72
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by lommm View Post
i know this is the manga thread specifically for ch258, but i can't myself...

i just wanted to talk about episode 110 without worrying about spoilers.

everyone is talking about how the new ED is spoilerific. well, i know that ulquiorra showed up in the last OP on the special frame once, so he's already been spoiled. Yami is new and he's in the ed behind Ulquiorra. they do show ishiin in shinigami garb, but that only spoils ep 111, so not that big a deal. they do show Hiyori Sarugaki. i believe that spoils a character that probably won't appear for another 13 episodes if not longer. other than that, i don't see why the ED is that big a deal.

now, i think they did an awesome job with Shinji's seiyu and especially with Ryuken's seiyu. just what i wanted them to sound like (i know, we heard Ryuken once way back around ep 15 or so, but stil...)

from the episode titles, it looks like we'll see Rukia's shikai around episode 115.


btw, i don't like to get involved with these things, but why do you have to be so rude hdx514? just have the discussion instead of sounding like a d1ck and telling people they're smoking crack.
I find it amazing that Bleach started their filler arc quite sometime after Naruto's yet still manage to get back to the main storyline ahead of them.

But back to Bleach. Yeah, I like Sinji's seiyu very much, the character comes off just the way I believe he was intended be. As for the spoilers, they don't make much of a difference since anyone who reads the manga will have no idea who they are. They'll be able to guess that the arrancar are some type of hollow, but that's about it. Besides, I think most of the captains and VC's were spoiled in the OP before Ichigo and his crew ever even arrived in Soul Society.

I'm looking forward to seeing the Grimmjow vs. Ichigo fight animated and hearing's Grimm's voice. I imagine him sounding similar to Kenpachi for some reason...
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Old 2007-01-11, 21:07   Link #73
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
. As for the spoilers, they don't make much of a difference since anyone who reads the manga will have no idea who they are. They'll be able to guess that the arrancar are some type of hollow, but that's about it.
Actually yes and no I was on yahoo I came across Grimmjow: Loyal Servant to Grand Fisher. This what happens I dont know to LOL or go WTF
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Old 2007-01-11, 23:27   Link #74
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I bet that thread will end pretty quick next week. I'm pretty sure the whole spoiler in the ending is cause of Ishin just because it seemed to come so completely out of left feild in the manga so haveing him in the ending like that kinda lessens the impact even if it's only by an episode.
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Old 2007-01-12, 00:52   Link #75
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spoiler's only a big deal because people make it a big deal. the japs, or at least the bleach anime production team don't seem to bother that much, and for example, chinese don't even have the concept of spoiler tags. just a difference in culture. if someone's really into the plot he'd read the manga anyway.

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Originally Posted by lommm View Post
btw, i don't like to get involved with these things, but why do you have to be so rude hdx514? just have the discussion instead of sounding like a d1ck and telling people they're smoking crack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post

Shikai Ichigo > Bankai Renji ( To come up with that wtf are you smoking buddy )
considering the shounen hero a whole tier above someone he defeated ages ago equals a crack issue, considering shawlong a whole tier above the other numeros shouldn't be any different. it's just logical reasoning and i don't see no problem
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Old 2007-01-12, 01:16   Link #76
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considering the shounen hero a whole tier above someone he defeated ages ago equals a crack issue, considering shawlong a whole tier above the other numeros shouldn't be any different. it's just logical reasoning and i don't see no problem
Any proof Shikai Ichigo > Bankai Renji ? Or just usal fanboy craving to make this statement . Shonen Manga but who ever made you Kubo we all use IMHO or say its an assumption . You do neither while making such statements

Using Aizen Comparisions which you often do lets see you used that for sying Renji is Trash , Renji is weak but not trash .

Same Aizen Comparision for Grimm , Gin

Grim = Super Trash When Aizen unleashed his reatsu Grim acted like a little wus and wet his pants . Atleast Shiro Renji Ichigo and Koma he had to use his Zanapkuto so Grim is Super Trash

Gin = Super Duper Trash . Aizen pawned Shiro well Shiro is trash so . Shiro pawning Gin , so that means Gin lost to trash so he is Super Duper Trash

That kind of logic makes you go whoa and your defense to these statements Bleach Shonen .
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Old 2007-01-12, 01:19   Link #77
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Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
On the same note

Grim : Junichi Suwabe


Spoiler for list:


Ulqi : Daisuke Namikawa ( Kami Sama Saiyuki Reload )

Spoiler for list:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sceptileex View Post
Nice voice actor for Grimm IMO. For Ulqi however, it just sounds wrong. Maybe its just the characters that ive seen him play, but it dosent seem to fit ulqi's dark image.
i find that Hikaru Midorikawa(heero from gundam wing/endless waltz) would be a cool for ulquiorra, after watching the movie again i felt that i could see ulqi's voice played by him, but at the same time im not quite sure if its dark enough for the character of ulqi =S

Last edited by sx3; 2007-01-12 at 01:34.
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Old 2007-01-12, 03:04   Link #78
hdx514
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Quote:
Any proof Shikai Ichigo > Bankai Renji ? Or just usal fanboy craving to make this statement.
no solid proof, but there're quite a number of indirect evidences which i listed elsewhere that people have yet to refute. on the other hand, any proof of shawlong >> rest of the numeros, or is this just the usual fanboy statement?

Quote:
Shonen Manga but who ever made you Kubo
only kubo knows what happens exactly in bleach yes, but it doesn't take kubo to figure out that kubo himself is indeed ichigo's no.1 fanboy. ichigo was an insignificant human kid and aizen was a pathetic corpse until kubo associated all them far-fetched things with these two, not me. on the other hand, people associated far-fetched things with secondary characters before kubo himself did anything at all, and that's fanboyism

one who believes that ichigo will kick aizen's butt need not be an ichigo fanboy. one who believes that renji/hitsugaya/momo will kick aizen's butt definitely is. can't you tell the simple difference?

Quote:
we all use IMHO or say its an assumption.
don't believe you did, you even stated stuff that directly contradicts the manga with no IMO e.g.
Quote:
Ikkaku >> Renji for a simple reason that when the first crop of Numeros attacked Ikkaku was the only shinigami who defeated his opponent without lifting the limit.
Quote:
Using Aizen Comparisions which you often do lets see you used that for sying Renji is Trash , Renji is weak but not trash.
no i didn't, because i've said 100 times the reason people who're defeated by ichigo becomes rubbish is because as we've seen bleach main power level moves up with the growth of the protagonist, not the antagonist. that's why people start much stronger and end up getting left behind by the protagonist/main enemy level, effectively becoming insignificant weaklings. conversely, a selected few start off as insignificant weaklings compared to the antagonist (who represents not the main, but more or less the ultimate level in power), and end up catching up.

one is a retard if one is significantly less intelligent compared to the majority people of interest, but one need not be a retard if one's significantly less intelligent compared to einstein. in real life the intelligence of the majority people of interest doesn't change, while in a shounen they become the progressively more intelligent bunch as the protagonist himself gets wiser. therefore lots of geniuses who'll remain geniuses in real life end up comparatively retarded in a shounen.

grimmjow will become utter trash by the time ichigo gets to top espada level or above. we all know it's bound to happen. but he'll probably be dead by then anyway. why is this so difficult for people to deal with

Quote:
Gin = Super Duper Trash . Aizen pawned Shiro well Shiro is trash so . Shiro pawning Gin , so that means Gin lost to trash so he is Super Duper Trash
you're missing the "IMHO" bit yet again. plus you need to check the definition of the word "pawning"
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Old 2007-01-12, 04:32   Link #79
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Originally Posted by hdx514 View Post
no solid proof, but there're quite a number of indirect evidences which i listed elsewhere that people have yet to refute. on the other hand, any proof of shawlong >> rest of the numeros, or is this just the usual fanboy statement?
Please lets see this "proof" you have because I've yet to see anything that hints Ichigo is so much stronger then Renji that his Shikai could beat Renji's bankai. As a matter of fact Shikai Ichigo barely beat Shikai Renji 3 days before they both gained bankai power levels.

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Originally Posted by hdx514 View Post
only kubo knows what happens exactly in bleach yes, but it doesn't take kubo to figure out that kubo himself is indeed ichigo's no.1 fanboy. ichigo was an insignificant human kid and aizen was a pathetic corpse until kubo associated all them far-fetched things with these two, not me. on the other hand, people associated far-fetched things with secondary characters before kubo himself did anything at all, and that's fanboyism

one who believes that ichigo will kick aizen's butt need not be an ichigo fanboy. one who believes that renji/hitsugaya/momo will kick aizen's butt definitely is. can't you tell the simple difference?
Again your are throwing out far fetched theroies to change/ mask the agument in your favor. No one has said that anyone is going to be able to kick the main villian's butt definitely, not even Ichigo will, if you belive otherwise you are the fanboy you claim everyone elses is. What were are debateing is if Ichigo's suporting group is trash or not.

Your logic about Kubo is so flawed it makes my head hurt. Kubo is the creator and writer for the story, there was no Ichigo or Azein before hecame along. Everyone that Kubo chooses to focus on is importent because they are being focused on. . Unless you are going for comedy relief, showing how badass a character is, or trying to kill off a character you don't throw any of the main characters against overpowering odds. Chad, Rukia, and Renji are not comedy characters nor is there any reason to show that any of the current villians are badass as we already know that there is at least on group above them. Kubo has also made Ichigo weaker then most shounen heroes, nearly every major fight that Ichigo has been in has ended in a draw or Ichigo bearly outlasting his oponet.

You seem to think that Ichigo is as powerful as he will be in the end game right now and therefor out strips all his companions which he dosn't. He is the strongest of the group but we know Ishida is not very far behind him, and I belive once we see the others fight they well do just as well.


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no i didn't, because i've said 100 times the reason people who're defeated by ichigo becomes rubbish is because as we've seen bleach main power level moves up with the growth of the protagonist, not the antagonist. that's why people start much stronger and end up getting left behind by the protagonist/main enemy level, effectively becoming insignificant weaklings. conversely, a selected few start off as insignificant weaklings compared to the antagonist (who represents not the main, but more or less the ultimate level in power), and end up catching up.
This sort of thinking only aplies if there is only a solo protagonist, in bleach there is a group of protagonists were Ichigo is the head and strongest and his friends and rivals makeing up the rest of the group. Anyone in the group will be a match for the current level villians.
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Old 2007-01-12, 04:52   Link #80
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I am muchos pissed with Shinji's Seiyu ( Masaya Onosaka ) cant belive he was Vash , he sounds os ordinary . Shinji being the Vizard Scout/Stalker of Ichigo should have sounded a lot more creepier

Spoiler for Masaya Onosaka:
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