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Old 2007-01-05, 19:28   Link #81
Zu Ra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
So if you kill your friend directly, you will always get Itachi's MS? Is that what your saying?
I dont know same ms or not but thats how Itachi got it . And that point was in relation with this one below

Quote:
There aren't any "facts", just the story we've seen so far. Only someone with the Uchiha bloodline can get MS. You must kill your best friend to get MS. These were "facts" presented by Itachi, both proven false. Characters in comics and manga come back from the "dead" all the time. Simply saying he's dead b/c he was stated to be dead isn't enough. And the fact that the details about his death are so vague make many people understandably suspicious. I'm not trying tout this as absolute truth, merely as a possibility, one that is not too crazy or illogical to fit in with what we've seen so far.
So I stated Kakashi's MS is a Variation of Itachi's MS The Technique to obtain them both are not same . As Itachi demonstrated/used the first MS in Naruto other MS will be called variation with resp to that .


Quote:
And how is kakashi's weaker? He has a different technique, but how exactly is it weaker? kakashi can use his MS technique about as often as itachi can use his. I don't see the argument.
Kakashi is weaker when you just take sharingam ablities into question . Kakashi's MS is not weak its Kakashi who is weak to handle its for execution and more importantly for a prolonged time .
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Old 2007-01-05, 19:36   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Hey there are lots of things said as fact which turned out to be not entirely true besides the example subaku kyu stated (I'm siding with him on that). There was that statement by zabuza about kakashi's chidori. Zabuza was amazed that kakashi could summon so much visible chakra; turns out it was just lightning. People can be wrong, just like Itachi was wrong (the only way itachi isn't wrong is if he knew that kakashi could develop the MS).
Such as?
It's not the first times I see you listing these 2 examples but that's pretty much it, I wouldn't call that a lot.
Since (again) Itachi never said anything about Kakashi ables to gain the MS or not, the only example you have of retcon altering the story is Zabuza's statement about the Chidori... Which I may had could still be interpreted as correct if you really want to : a small amount of chakra transformed into electricity may not be invisible like the Raiton Tsunade used on Kabuto for example.
Same with Wind chakra btw.
All your other points are merely expressed opinions. There is a difference between characters making an explanation and making a boast.

I don't see your problem with the whole "lacking hatred" thingy. Quite frankly it's not more stupid than the "protecting your friend : true strength". In fact it's exactly the same thing in the opposite way.
And anyway Itachi didn't say that Sasuke was weaker than him because he lacked hatred, he said Sasuke was weak because of that which is entirely different.

Quote:
To an extent. He certainly doesn't seem to be outworking anybody.
And you reach this conclusion by the fact that the only single thing Sasuke was shown to do outside fighting and lying in a hospital bed... is training?
I'm curious except from Lee because Sasuke himself admited that he must trains way harder than both him and Naruto, who was shown to train all the time?
Naruto and... ?
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Old 2007-01-05, 19:39   Link #83
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Here's from Japanese wikipedia page, read at your own risk.


Spoiler:


Spoiler:

Last edited by guy22102; 2007-01-05 at 19:52.
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Old 2007-01-05, 19:56   Link #84
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Every thread somehow turns into a debate about Itachi and Sasuke. I knew I shouldn't have used MS as an example, but it was the best I could think of at the time. The whole reason I bought up Kakashi's MS was this point:

Itachi said to Sasuke To obtain eyes like mine, you must first kill your best friend. Or something to that effect. It's all well and good to go back and say that he was specifically talking about Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu and not MS in general now that we know Kakashi has MS, but if you were to go back a year and have someone interpret these words, they would most likely take it to mean that you have to kill your best friend to gain MS at all b/c no other variants of MS were known to exist at the time. So what I'm trying to say is that all these theories about Yondaime seem illogical and contradictory now, but things can change as the manga goes on and we get more information. Then you might be forced to go back re-interpret what was stated, just like we've had to re-interpret Itachi's words.

Even I find the idea of Naruto being an incarnation unlikely and in fact strongly disagreed with it. But I admit now that it could work if Kishi wants it to.

Quote:
But why would AL be alive I dont get the logic here . A chracter is considered dead unless the manga-ka thinks otherwise . That way I can say ,why not Nidaime as AL we know nothing about his death or its even vagueur than Yondi's death ..If kishi hints somewhere Yondi is AL then yeah but otherwise .

This whole theory started coz of one thing Yondi is a genius Ninja but was it ever stated the strongest ever ?. AL had to be strong being the main or one of the main anatgonists so this logic was used to interelate these two .
This is a thread about Naruto being Yondaime and not the AL so I don't know why he was brought up. But if there were some connection between the AL and Yondaime I wouldn't expect them to drop any kind of hints until many, many chapters from now. So the lack of evidence shouldn't be surprising. Details about the Akatsuki members are just beginning to be revealed. As for your comment about Nidaime. There's no question that Nidaime's dead or Shodaime for that matter. We saw their undead forms fight the 3rd. We saw their souls devoured by the death god. We can't say the same thing for Yondaime.
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Old 2007-01-05, 20:00   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu;
Even I find the idea of Naruto being an incarnation unlikely. But it could work if Kishi wants it to.
Reincarnation is too far fetched in my books too , but what I had stated yesterday was more to do with Yondi being Kept alive by Naruto Fans ... Also the thread heading Yondaime is Naruto makes no sense leaving the reincarnation ( if true though unlikely ) and likeness part
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Old 2007-01-05, 20:04   Link #86
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Originally Posted by guy22102 View Post
Here's from Japanese wikipedia page, read at your own risk.


Spoiler:
Wouldn't Tsunade have been presented as a cousin of the 4th then ?

And that would suck. At first, I liked how all the great ninjas (hokages, Jiraiya) hadn't any blood limit. I thought they were just normal guys who worked their way to the top. Now, the first had his special tree Thingie and half the great ninjas of konoha are his siblings, the others being Uchiha. And Orichimaru definitely is a freak.
Only Jiraiya and the 3rd stay really great in my mind.

Last edited by Rahan; 2007-01-05 at 20:31.
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Old 2007-01-05, 23:26   Link #87
Suna no tate
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Such as?
It's not the first times I see you listing these 2 examples but that's pretty much it, I wouldn't call that a lot.
Since (again) Itachi never said anything about Kakashi ables to gain the MS or not, the only example you have of retcon altering the story is Zabuza's statement about the Chidori... Which I may had could still be interpreted as correct if you really want to : a small amount of chakra transformed into electricity may not be invisible like the Raiton Tsunade used on Kabuto for example.
Same with Wind chakra btw.
All your other points are merely expressed opinions. There is a difference between characters making an explanation and making a boast.

I don't see your problem with the whole "lacking hatred" thingy. Quite frankly it's not more stupid than the "protecting your friend : true strength". In fact it's exactly the same thing in the opposite way.
And anyway Itachi didn't say that Sasuke was weaker than him because he lacked hatred, he said Sasuke was weak because of that which is entirely different.


And you reach this conclusion by the fact that the only single thing Sasuke was shown to do outside fighting and lying in a hospital bed... is training?
I'm curious except from Lee because Sasuke himself admited that he must trains way harder than both him and Naruto, who was shown to train all the time?
Naruto and... ?
A few more examples. I don't know
1)oro saying kabuto was as strong as kakashi. is that a fact seeing as kabuto said konoha should have placed at least 10 anbu guys to stop him?
2)oro saying he's weaker than itachi. itachi saying that even if they were more of him they couldn't beat jiraiya. yet Oro defeated the 3rd hokage (jiraiya may not be able to do that) and with no arms proved to be quite a match for tsunade and jiraiya combined.
3)Gaara's automatic sand defense was inpenetrable and moved at the speed of light. Clearly it does neither.
4)If sasuke tried to do a 4th chidori in the same day it wouldn't worn and he would probably die. Clearly it did work and he didn't die.
5) I can't think of anymore jutsu related ones, but I'm tired. Cut me some slack. Nonetheless, ultimately all I'm trying to say is that just because someone in the series says they believe something tobe true doesn't mean it is. I agree completely with you about the difference with an explanation and boast. The only problem is sometimes in this manga a boast or something similar is the only explanation or insight we have to work with until the real proof is given. Until gaara met rock lee, I really did think that sand defense was inpenetrable and I bet if kakashi found out that sasuke pulled off that 4th chidori successfully and still lived, he'd be shocked. I agree with you there is a difference when someone is explaining something (ie yamato and the elemental weaknesses) and when someone is making a boast (ie kankarou talking about gaara's defense and how it works). I just want to say that concerning certain things, so far the boast is all the explanation we get.

Concerning how you get the MS, all we have is itachi's boast and clearly its not all that accurate.

Well I'm not going to try and seriously defend the "lacking hatred" thing. Its just how I feel about sasuke. He just doesn't give off that "I give 100 percent" vibe I get from lee and naruto and even neji. I'm just saying that the times where we've seen sasuke actively try to better himself always seem to come off right after someone's shown him up. When sasuke hasn't been shown up, I don't get the feeling that he's really training all that hard. Naruto on the other hand seems to be constantly trying to better himself. But its just a loose opinion and I admit a biased one since I already dislike that sasuke-kun.
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Old 2007-01-06, 01:08   Link #88
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Hmmm...Where's Miss Rave when theres a situation like this. If she was here, I'm pretty sure she'll say somethin' like "Nope, Yondaime can't be Naruto. You know why? That's because he's the AL!!".
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Old 2007-01-06, 04:22   Link #89
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"with no arms proved to be quite a match for tsunade and jiraiya combined."
yeah with the help of kabuto and more over jiraiya couldnt mold chakra perfectly and drugged...tsunade almost killed him herself...
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Old 2007-01-06, 07:53   Link #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
To an extent. He certainly doesn't seem to be outworking anybody. And he only seems to get motivated when he gets shown up by someone (ie gaara, naruto, rock lee, itachi etc). Naruto however seems to always have the motivation motor running. Lets just say until Sasuke gets shown up he only gives 30 percent of effort and lets talent carry the rest of the way. Naruto however will always give 100 percent effort and has very little talent to carry him. Remember the first chapter where naruto was struggling just to do henge? what if sasuke had put naruto type effort into henge? what kind of crazy henge tricks could he have developed and mastered? And remember that at that point, sakura was better at henge than sasuke since she had better chakra control, so its not like sasuke was top notch at it either. You can't say he was lazy because he was indeed good at it and did enough training to get it to that point. I would say that sasuke seems to continually fail to live up to his potential. that I think that is his flaw. but its really somethin I personally feel because I so very much dislike sasuke.
ah fair enough, i'll respect your opinion on this matter, But we are not the writers of this manga/anime, it's Kishimoto who makes it that way....the fact of the matter is Sasuke doesn't care about how strong Naruto is anymore...i'll agree with you one the point when people are shown to be better than Sasuke [at that point] he gets annoyed, but right now we've seen a new Sasuke who has set is sight on something he wants to do. He's finally figured out what he wants...i think Sasuke has become stronger than Oro but only usering him to learn more of his techniques.... i can just image Sasuke using the Triple Rashomon or Summoning the three Hokages
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Old 2007-01-06, 09:22   Link #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
A few more examples. I don't know
[...]
1/I don't understand the problem here, Oro, Jiraiya and Kakachi are wrong about Kabuto's level because Kabuto said to Kakashi should have prepared at least 10 Anbu? Why?
2)There is translation/interpretation issues for this one, it would require a thread by itself :P
3)Ok that's called boast and hype : OMG another ultimate [offense/defense/ramen/whatever] !! Everybody knownthat's not to be taken litterally. In fact everytime something is qualified to be ultimate the probability that this thing will be broken get higher in this kind of manga.
4)Actually there is no problem with this one, Sasuke wasn't to try to use a 3rd (not a 4th) Chidori because he didn't have enough chakra to pull it off which meant a risk of death in the worst case and for him the risk to trigger the CS despite Kakashi's seal in order to forcefully draw chakra from his body. It's exactly what happened and it's why Sasuke was suffering and spitting on the ground after that.

Again don't misunderstand me : everything can't be taken as face value. There is hype, boast, different opinions, etc. And it's true that there are many retcon which change the insight of what happened before.
I mean hell : in one chapter Sangoku became an extraterrestrial.
I just mean that while Kishimoto can do whatever he wants (within Shonen Jump policy), change any and every informations as he wishes it doesn't change that what he wrote is true until he writes it wrong.

At this point everything point to Yondaime's dead including statement from the narrator which is quite rare in this manga. It doesn't mean Kishimoto can't decide otherwise of course but we have to go with what is currently known. Or you can just as easily say that Yondaime in fact never fought the Kyubi.

Quote:
Well I'm not going to try and seriously defend the "lacking hatred" thing. Its just how I feel about sasuke. He just doesn't give off that "I give 100 percent" vibe I get from lee and naruto and even neji. I'm just saying that the times where we've seen sasuke actively try to better himself always seem to come off right after someone's shown him up. When sasuke hasn't been shown up, I don't get the feeling that he's really training all that hard. Naruto on the other hand seems to be constantly trying to better himself. But its just a loose opinion and I admit a biased one since I already dislike that sasuke-kun.
Well the thing is that Sasuke has always been shown up by his brother. It was the case before the slaughter and it was even truer after that.
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Old 2007-01-06, 11:41   Link #92
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
1/I don't understand the problem here, Oro, Jiraiya and Kakachi are wrong about Kabuto's level because Kabuto said to Kakashi should have prepared at least 10 Anbu? Why?
Kabuto meets kakashi. Kabuto outsmarts kakashi. Kakashi then says that he's lucky kabuto ran away because Kakashi was probably no match for him. Oro was wrong. Kabuto is even stronger than Oro gives him credit for

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2)There is translation/interpretation issues for this one, it would require a thread by itself :P
Yup. If that thread was started, it would become so heated that the administrators would have to shut down the entire naruto forum and declare martial law (somewhere in the universe). Best to leave that one alone

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3)Ok that's called boast and hype : OMG another ultimate [offense/defense/ramen/whatever] !! Everybody knownthat's not to be taken litterally. In fact everytime something is qualified to be ultimate the probability that this thing will be broken get higher in this kind of manga.
Still, my argument is that at the point it was stated, we had to take it as fact. Kankarou said light speed and he said inpenetrable in his description. He also said it moves regardless of gaara's will. All of those things are probably not true and may have been his opinion (though I do think he stated them as fact), but at the point it was said we had to believe it as true, just like we had to believe what zabuza said what he said about chidori until shown otherwise.

I agree with all the stuff you were arguing for. You can't take everyone's statements at face value, even if they state certain things as fact. My biggest peeve is when kurenai is fighting itachi and she says "watch out for that kage bunshin" and then it exploded. Was it really a kage bunshin? I don't know. There are problems with it being one and in truth, kurenai wasn't in a very good position to tell what kind of bunshin it was (even kakashi shouldn't have been able to tell). SO yeah, I totally agree with everything you say.

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Again don't misunderstand me : everything can't be taken as face value. There is hype, boast, different opinions, etc. And it's true that there are many retcon which change the insight of what happened before.
I mean hell : in one chapter Sangoku became an extraterrestrial.
I just mean that while Kishimoto can do whatever he wants (within Shonen Jump policy), change any and every informations as he wishes it doesn't change that what he wrote is true until he writes it wrong.

At this point everything point to Yondaime's dead including statement from the narrator which is quite rare in this manga. It doesn't mean Kishimoto can't decide otherwise of course but we have to go with what is currently known. Or you can just as easily say that Yondaime in fact never fought the Kyubi.
So did they find a body or did they not find a body? Just asking.
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Old 2007-01-06, 15:03   Link #93
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1/You're exagerating here, Kakashi didn't say he was no match for him. If it was the case Kabuto would have let his body on the ground near the 3 Anbu.
2/This thread was made quite many time actually. A fair number of them ended in tears and blood yes
3/Nah light speed is a commun and obvious figure of speech. When did Kankuro ever said that anyway?
And note that the statement where Gaara's defense was called absolute was proved wrong during the very fight it was stated. Ie it's not like the autor is trying to foul you.

Quote:
So did they find a body or did they not find a body? Just asking.
Nothing is specifically said about it but it's most probable it was.
It's not like he was alone fighting the Kyubi. Many ninja from Konoha were there and the 3rd had to be at his side since Yondaime told him about the Shikigami that only those using the seal can see.

Now it's not like the whole "hero who had saved the world against the big bady and sacrified his life returns alive a dozen of volume later thanks to some random unbelievable event" has never happened before in shonen manga :P
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Old 2007-01-06, 17:11   Link #94
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
1/You're exagerating here, Kakashi didn't say he was no match for him. If it was the case Kabuto would have let his body on the ground near the 3 Anbu.
My impression was Kakashi was somewhat relieved that Kabuto ran away instead of deciding to stay and fight. But really even then its confusing. Kabuto kills like 4 ANBU guys and says he needed 10 to make it really difficult. Then he outsmarts kakashi. Then he loses to naruto and shizune. Its all very confusing. I've always wondered how kabuto killed those ANBU guys. In my mind I seem to remember being surprised that there was no blood. How do you kill 4 guys without spilling any blood? Well Kabuto is a medical ninja...maybe poison or something who knows. But its all very fishy and I can't trust Oro's statement of Kabuto at all.

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
3/Nah light speed is a commun and obvious figure of speech. When did Kankuro ever said that anyway?
And note that the statement where Gaara's defense was called absolute was proved wrong during the very fight it was stated. Ie it's not like the autor is trying to foul you.
Well the best explanation was given when gaara met those 3 guys with umbrellas in the chuunin exam forest. They tried to attack gaara and failed. And then kankarou gives the explanation behind gaara. Thats where I believe he said all the stuff about inpentrable, and light speed, and moves regardless of his will. Then later on in the series we see most of those things aren't fully true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Nothing is specifically said about it but it's most probable it was.
It's not like he was alone fighting the Kyubi. Many ninja from Konoha were there and the 3rd had to be at his side since Yondaime told him about the Shikigami that only those using the seal can see.
Now it's not like the whole "hero who had saved the world against the big bady and sacrified his life returns alive a dozen of volume later thanks to some random unbelievable event" has never happened before in shonen manga :P
[/QUOTE]

Well the premise of this thread is that yondaime is physically naruto. To me that means that a body of his was never found after the kyubi incident. Instead they found a baby [Naruto] most likely in the middle of the 4th hokages clothes. In such an ambiguous situation, it'd be hard to call him dead for a very long time and even if they did call him dead (say after 3 years), they'd be idiots for not looking into why that same baby that they found looks so much like the guy who mysteriously disappeared. And remember, this isn't some "joe blow" run of the mill ninja; this is the 4th hokage possibly the greatest ninja konoha had ever known. I liken the situation to Hitlers own mysterious death. There were lots of german soldiers who mysteriously went missing and are presumed dead, but hitler is probably at the top of that list. Even today people don't fully rule out the possibility that he's warming himself on a beach in brazil. When high profile people mysteriously disappear, its hard to think of them as dead even after decades.

The point is, there is no massive investigation launched into why naruto looks like the fourth considering that we are presuming he was found on the scene right in the middle of the 4ths clothes. There aren't people in konoha putting up conspiracy theories that maybe the 4th is hiding over in some village and has amnesia or maybe he was kidnapped by enemy ninja or maybe he ran off and is the head of a black mercenary organization composed of 9 s-class missing ninja who plan to take over the world; people in konoha just don't seem to be thinking that. If the body is never found, it is immediately incredibly ambiguous. Look today in american society. People who go missing are still thought of as possibly being alive even for decades (until the grim truth is revealed). Instead, nobody in konoha seems to question that fact that he's dead. There isn't even that one conspiracy theory guy out there. They seem pretty sure of themselves that he's dead and to be that sure they probably have good reason for it, a good reason such as finding his dead lifeless body in the forest. I'm just saying....

Kishi is the writer and he may find someone to bring the 4th back, but if that method is predicated on the notion that the fourths body was never found, then he's making the people of konoha seem really really stupid especially for not probing into if naruto may have something to do with his mysterious disapperance (especially seeing as the 4th is like the greatest ninja in konoha history and knows all sorts of sensitive information that could potentially threaten the village if it gets out). At best the situation, if no body is found and instead a screaming baby in a pile of clothes is discovered, the situation is a 60/40 chance that he's dead and not the 100 percent chance that konoha citizens seem to believe..
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Old 2007-01-08, 15:24   Link #95
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Fallin a tad off topic are we? ^^

In any case, in my last example i pointed out that the 3rd and a select few may have kept the fact that Naruto is the 4th classified for a very simple reason: His enemies. He was feared by all non-leaf ninjas, now he is a helpless child and can easily be killed before he becomes a threat again. If i were the 3rd, and i found that this child is probably the 4th, i would classify it and create a cover story instantly.

Also as i mentioned, the 3rd may have started to panic as the 4th was summoned because when it didn't work, Oro, who probably despises the 4th the most, would find out this important information.
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Old 2007-01-09, 06:57   Link #96
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it would be kinda cool...but why would they keep it a secret from him?
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Old 2007-01-09, 06:58   Link #97
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it would be kinda cool...but why would they keep it a secret from him?
oh yeah, he'd probably blab it to everyone...
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Old 2007-01-09, 08:06   Link #98
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also if naruto was 4th sandaime would make him a clumsy idiot hated by everyone vs. vs.
if he was 4th and sandaime knew about it he would took him and treat specially more over train him himself and stuff not abandon him...

also 4th wasnt feared only known among others... in the name of yellow flash...there is always somebody stronger then him/her/anybody...he wasnt an unbeatable god shinobi...yes he was powerfull may be one of the best but there is no one to take the crown of shinobi god...
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Old 2007-01-09, 08:43   Link #99
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Originally Posted by Sasuke_Akatsuki View Post
Yondaime = HOT
Narut = Hmm..So so

I believe thats all the proof anyone needs. Close thread please.
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Old 2007-01-09, 09:09   Link #100
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Well the 4th didnít transform into a baby now did he?


Did the 4th fuse himself with the nine tails so he can gain power when he regains his memory! Why would he do this? Is Naruto actually evil? Oh so many theories so if the 4th is actually Naruto I think it would confuse us all! Well maybe not all but it would confuse me!

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