Kanon - 2006 - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[Meophist]

Originally Posted by Devil Doll

But what did Yuuichi actually do to "prove his friendship" between the moment when Mai stabbed herself and the moment when Hope decided to heal the wound? Yuuichi told Hope that he'd accept Mai as friend with her powers - something he told Mai half a dozen times already, most notably directly before Mai decided to stab herself. I don't see how Yuuichi could have possibly saved Mai after the stab - and I don't see why Mai would stab herself if Yuuichi saved her already.
Why would Hope believe Yuuichi when Mai did not, only seconds earlier? Why would Mai change her mind within these few seconds, first deciding to kill herself for being unable to accept her power, then suddenly doing the exact opposite?
Would Hope be able to "overrule" Mai? In that case wasn't in command of her powers but the powers were in command of Mai... then why would Mai be able to kill the demons?

Yuuichi proved his friendship by returning to Mai and being there for her. It's something Mai didn't realise until the end.

I think you're confusing Hope and Mai together. They're different entities. Mai's powers became separate entities and became the demons. They were connected to Mai, so both can sense each other. Neither were in command of each other.

When I said "saved", I was talking about how Mai couldn't get herself to open up to other people until Yuuichi kept his promise. Yuuichi kept his promise, which he proved at the end. That's not going to automatically change Mai's super-depressed state.

Since Mai was saved, Hope felt it was alright to bring back Mai. However, she needed to make sure that Yuuichi will be there for her, so she asked herself. Basically, Yuuichi is needed to make sure Mai won't try to commit suicide again. If she did, there would basically be no point in reviving her.

That's my interpretation.

[Richard 23]

Considering all the interpretations and counter-interpretations I've seen here, Kyoto Animation did their job. They've got people talking about their product and hungry for next week. I can't wait until the next episode (again).

[Devil Doll]

Originally Posted by Meophist

I think you're confusing Hope and Mai together. They're different entities. Mai's powers became separate entities and became the demons. They were connected to Mai, so both can sense each other. Neither were in command of each other.
...
Since Mai was saved, Hope felt it was alright to bring back Mai. However, she needed to make sure that Yuuichi will be there for her, so she asked herself.

When Yuuichi returned to Mai in the classroom and told her who he is, a small girl stood next to him, holding his hand. I take that as being Hope, the last surviving demon, guiding Yuuichi back to Mai when he finally understood the message. But if this entity was present during the whole conversation between Mai and Yuuichi she should know that Yuuichi didn't run away from Mai in the first place. Why would she have to ask the same question again?

[Skane]

Originally Posted by Devil Doll

When Yuuichi returned to Mai in the classroom and told her who he is, a small girl stood next to him, holding his hand. I take that as being Hope, the last surviving demon, guiding Yuuichi back to Mai when he finally understood the message. But if this entity was present during the whole conversation between Mai and Yuuichi she should know that Yuuichi didn't run away from Mai in the first place. Why would she have to ask the same question again?

Confirmation to alleviate any insecurities. Remember. Hope has a separate sentience from Mai. She would want Yuuichi to tell it to her directly too.

Honestly, it's not that hard to figure it out.

Cheers.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Man, you really are intending to pick at every little detail...

That question was meant as a tiny reminder to Yuuichi of what he promised, it's also just a small way for her to have him assure her, some people like that. It doesn't have any bigger, hidden messager to it...

[Ascaloth]

@DanielSong39,

It's not about KyoAni taking elements from their presentation from the AIR anime to use in their adaptation of Kanon. It's about KyoAni using their distinctive style of animation to present Kanon, something that would probably be carried over into a KyoAni adaptation of CLANNAD, should they ever decide to make one. It's something you would have seen before in Makoto's finale in Episode 10, and it's something you will see again later on in a similar vein in the finales of the other girls.

And I still don't see what you meant by drawing parallels from Ayu's arc to the Summer Arc. That simply doesn't make sense to me; they are two different storylines altogether.

@USCPharmacist,

You claimed you were not trashing the storyline, but that was how your previous posts portrayed it. If you think it's confusing, just say so in simple, understandable terms; the "mockery" you employed in the writing of your posts do not give your ideas a single ounce of justice. DD has the same thoughts as you, but you don't see me getting on his case like I do you. Why? Because he presents his thoughts in a coherent manner that invites serious discussion to the topic at hand, and that is something I can respect. Comparing Kanon to a mindless killfest like WOW is not something I can respect.

That is not to say I entirely disagree with your ideas on the episode; after seeing it, I can see how it would be confusing to first-time viewers, too. What I cannot agree with is the way you presented your ideas; to me, it just smacked of "troll", and I know I've gained a reputation here as having generally less patience for trolls than the average forum-goer here, which is why I jumped on you.

That said, I admit I have gotten too far ahead of myself, and have reviewed my own actions in hindsight. Therefore, I extend my sincere apologies to you for my negative behaviour.

[DarrenW]

Well, first off: incredible episode. I think this is Kanon 2k6's best so far.

@Devil Doll
Your earlier list of five (pining, slander, envy, vanity, greed); what is that from? Is that a list of evils that escaped from Pandora's box?

[Skane]

There was never an exact list of what evils escaped from Pandora's Box( or Jar, if you want to be historically accurate). There are however, some descriptions.

However, Pandora's curiosity got the better of her and she opened it, releasing all the misfortunes of mankind: "For ere this the tribes of men lived on earth remote and free from ills [kakoi] and hard toil [ponoi] and heavy sickness [nosoi argaleai] which bring the Keres [baleful spirits] upon men; for in misery men grow old quickly" (Hesiod, Works and Days). Once opened, she shut it in time to keep one thing in the jar: hope 1. The world remained extremely bleak for an unspecified interval, until Pandora "chanced" to revisit the jar again, at which point Hope fluttered out. Thus, mankind always has hope in times of evil.

So we have 'ills', 'hard toils', heavy sickness, 'baleful spirits', and 'rapid aging'.

Seriously though, I don't think we're supposed to draw upon Pandora's Box as an allegory for Mai's demons. There was no forbidden opening or curiosity involved; the far more crucial elements in order to present an allegory of Pandora's Box.

Cheers.

[guuchan]

Wow, you guys really search to the root of things. (Look who's talking )

Anyway, U1 said something like "by defeating them (the previous four demons), Mai's arms and legs have become paralyzed" and "when she defeats the last one, she herself will also end up dying together with it". So I assume the five demons represent her arms, legs, and heart.

[Meophist]

Originally Posted by guuchan

Wow, you guys really search to the root of things. (Look who's talking )

Anyway, U1 said something like "by defeating them (the previous four demons), Mai's arms and legs have become paralyzed" and "when she defeats the last one, she herself will also end up dying together with it". So I assume the five demons represent her arms, legs, and heart.

I don't remember him saying anything like that. Is it from the game?

In any case, there's still many mysteries about Mai's arc I'm trying to sort out. It's actually quite confusing…

[New/Old]

I am willing to answer to the best of my ability should it be needed. Heh heh. To be honest, I've said this three times since my coming back full time, but will keep going with allowing it to remain out there. Heh heh.

[Meophist]

Right now I'm just examining the illusion beasts. First, do the animals they resemble have any meaning? I was thinking they might be the zodiac animals, as I think I've seen a pig, bear, and rabbit. Those were in the zodiac, right? I think I also saw a lizard with wings, maybe that's a dragon?

I'm also still not sure what they actually are. I've speculated, but those are just speculations. Are they manistations of Mai's power, or were they created from Mai's power? Is there really a sixth beast, or was it something else? Had there been more monsters from before? Do the illusions actually represent something? If so, what do they represent?

There's alot of unanswered questions. Although something I'm really wondering about is did Mai's power predict Yuuichi's coming, or did it make Yuuichi come?

[Chaos2Frozen]

@Meophist
Erm... We don't have bears in our zodiac =P (And to be picky, our dragons don't have wings either :P)

I believe several posts back people were saying that they were manifestations, and Yuuichi even said it himself... Unless you're thinking that Yuuichi got it wrong...? =)

[Raniie]

The bear isn't in the zodiac symbol. Tiger, Rabbit, Pig, Dragon, Ox is what I gathered. The last one that Mai jump off from the roof top did look like a dragon, but at the same time, it looked like a rabbit during the interior stairwell scene. There's also the chance that these demons can morph into different animal forms at anytime and at will, too, judging by their movements and behavior.

[xxsaznpride]

How can you possibly tell what they looked like? They're more or less invisible, and giving a specific description for something that's invisible is.... kinda... impossible unless you know that's what it is.

The blade that Mai used at the end (don't want to be too specific in case people haven't watched yet)... why wasn't there any blood on it? Did I miss something or was it just meant to be stainless?

[guuchan]

Originally Posted by Meophist

I don't remember him saying anything like that. Is it from the game?

Yep, it's from the game.

Originally Posted by Meophist

Right now I'm just examining the illusion beasts. First, do the animals they resemble have any meaning? I was thinking they might be the zodiac animals, as I think I've seen a pig, bear, and rabbit. Those were in the zodiac, right? I think I also saw a lizard with wings, maybe that's a dragon?

You're thinking too much. It's never described in the game that what "form" those demons took in. Maybe it's just randomly drawn in anime, or maybe they're trying to imply something. I doubt it's the latter case. It did mention in the game though, that Mai only knew how to make rabbit (in the "zoo" scene).

I'm also still not sure what they actually are. I've speculated, but those are just speculations. Are they manistations of Mai's power, or were they created from Mai's power? Is there really a sixth beast, or was it something else? Had there been more monsters from before? Do the illusions actually represent something? If so, what do they represent?

As Chaos2Frozen said, they are manifestations of her power. And nope, there wasn't a sixth demon. U1 explicitly stated that Mai purposefully injured the last one and didn't kill it, in order to get U1 out of the school.

There's alot of unanswered questions. Although something I'm really wondering about is did Mai's power predict Yuuichi's coming, or did it make Yuuichi come?

U1 was called forth by Mai's power (the power, aka chibi Mai, aka "hope", said so herself). That's why U1 got lost and "wandered" to the barley field.

[Wrath88]

Great episode, although whether Mai has lost most of her powers remains to be seen. This has been a great build-up, leading to an even better conclusion to her arc, with story, animation, etc.

Still, I wonder how are they going to slip in Shiori. For one thing, if he's to spend time with her, Yuuichi's might have to pass on Sayuri's lunches. I'm looking forward to see how KyoAni will still keep Mai in the story after her arc is over, like with Makoto.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by guuchan

Wow, you guys really search to the root of things. (Look who's talking )

Anyway, U1 said something like "by defeating them (the previous four demons), Mai's arms and legs have become paralyzed" and "when she defeats the last one, she herself will also end up dying together with it". So I assume the five demons represent her arms, legs, and heart.

and isnt it juat a miracle that mai managed to move to stab herself even if she was ment to be paralyzed i guess will power took over ~ and yea by killing the monsters mai was also killing off herself...cause her powers is a part of her and its something that she cannot get rid off without sacrificing herself first...which lead to her being resurrected as the "new" mai...this brings me to think that she will no longer have any powers at all ~

[guuchan]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

and isnt it juat a miracle that mai managed to move to stab herself even if she was ment to be paralyzed i guess will power took over ~

Haha, actually U1 asked her the same thing too. Remember the scene where U1 carried her up the staircase? There's such a dialog in game before he started climbing the stairs:

U1: Argh, you're pretty heavy actually...
U1: You got all the parts developed that you're supposed to.
*(hand)chop*
U1: I thought your arm couldn't move...

Yeah, U1 is quite a pervert in the game.

[qwerty4]

perfect episode! beautiful. much better thn the 02 version. i love the scene where she jumps off the toop and slashes it. i wondered afterwards...what if the demon just stepped to the side a bit and let her fall to her doom??? thn what?