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Old 2008-10-01, 01:56   Link #1981
Discerptor
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Becoming Zero was part of Zero Requiem. Letting Kallen "kill" him as she did was not. He makes that abundantly clear during their battle. If he had wanted to lose he wouldn't have used his live Geass in the first place. The way in which he lost simply isn't something they could arrange.
Using the Live Geass was done in order to make sure he could stay in control of the situation enough to not actually get killed, and he succeeded at that. And apparently the way in which he forced a "draw" was something they could arrange, since they did arrange it. There was no indication that any part of the events of the last episode didn't go according to plan outside of Geassing Nunnally.
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Old 2008-10-01, 02:07   Link #1982
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Using the Live Geass was done in order to make sure he could stay in control of the situation enough to not actually get killed, and he succeeded at that. And apparently the way in which he forced a "draw" was something they could arrange, since they did arrange it. There was no indication that any part of the events of the last episode didn't go according to plan outside of Geassing Nunnally.
Your logic doesn't make any sense. You claim he was trying to lose the battle as he did yet he's quite clear that even with his "curse" he can't beat her. Why bother trying to land a decisive blow if the goal is not to do so? More to the point, he wasn't saying it to her. There's also absolutely no mention of that specifically being the way they arranged for him to go out, other than assumption since it all works out for the best. He was trying to win that battle. Using Geass from the start shows it. He simply couldn't. Even his last comment is an acknowledgment that she succeeded, rather than a "just as planned" thing.
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Old 2008-10-01, 02:20   Link #1983
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Your logic doesn't make any sense. You claim he was trying to lose the battle as he did yet he's quite clear that even with his "curse" he can't beat her. Why bother trying to land a decisive blow if the goal is not to do so? More to the point, he wasn't saying it to her. There's also absolutely no mention of that specifically being the way they arranged for him to go out, other than assumption since it all works out for the best. He was trying to win that battle. Using Geass from the start shows it. He simply couldn't. Even his last comment is an acknowledgment that she succeeded, rather than a "just as planned" thing.
I claimed he was trying to stop Kallen from reaching Lelouch and trying to fake his death at the same time, not lose. He didn't lose even in the false case that he was trying to win, because both their mechs got disabled and both would have "died" if not for Tristan. The fact Suzaku didn't exert himself to the same degree Kallen did (falling unconscious) is evidence enough that he wasn't giving it his all. He simply had to stop her and survive in such a manner that his death was faked. Without the Live On geass, he wouldn't have been able to match up against the superior Guren. And you're just trying to make up complications in the plan when there's no indication of that. The Knight of Zero was supposed to "die" in that battle so that Zero could be reborn. It's as simple as that.
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Old 2008-10-01, 02:32   Link #1984
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I claimed he was trying to stop Kallen from reaching Lelouch and trying to fake his death at the same time, not lose. He didn't lose even in the false case that he was trying to win, because both their mechs got disabled and both would have "died" if not for Tristan. The fact Suzaku didn't exert himself to the same degree Kallen did (falling unconscious) is evidence enough that he wasn't giving it his all. He simply had to stop her and survive in such a manner that his death was faked. Without the Live On geass, he wouldn't have been able to match up against the superior Guren. And you're just trying to make up complications in the plan when there's no indication of that. The Knight of Zero was supposed to "die" in that battle so that Zero could be reborn. It's as simple as that.
No, it's not. You're trying to make that simplification out of non-existent proof so you'll have a point, when nothing in the episode indicates he was doing any less than fighting with everything he had.

Suzaku is superhuman, Kallen is not. That he didn't fall unconscious is hardly proof that he's holding back when his own words state quite clearly that he wasn't. It was a mutual loss. Kallen managed to get the finishing blow in, and his comment acknowledges it as her accomplishment, not something he let her do.
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Old 2008-10-01, 02:36   Link #1985
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No, it's not. You're trying to make that simplification out of non-existent proof so you'll have a point, when nothing in the episode indicates he was doing any less than fighting with everything he had.

Suzaku is superhuman, Kallen is not. That he didn't fall unconscious is hardly proof that he's holding back when his own words state quite clearly that he wasn't. It was a mutual loss. Kallen managed to get the finishing blow in, and his comment acknowledges it as her accomplishment, not something he let her do.
The fact it was revealed that Suzaku "dying" there was all part of a premeditated plan is what indicates he wasn't fighting with "everything he had" to get a clear victory over Kallen. It was part of the plan for him to fake-die in battle. Suzaku was surprised that he had to use the Live On Geass to just stay about on par with Kallen, but again, the fact he pre-planned his death means that he was trying to create a believable "dying" situation. He was surprised that he couldn't decisively manipulate the situation as easily as he hoped, but the show made it clear that he didn't want to "beat" Kallen there. Truly, the Guren SEITEN is a masterpiece since it forced Suzaku to use his Live On Geass in a situation where he would have easily manipulated the situation if Kallen were using an equivalent-spec mech to the Albion. Still, it looks like it wasn't quite high-spech enough for Suzaku to not overcome it anyway.

Last edited by Discerptor; 2008-10-01 at 10:39.
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Old 2008-10-01, 04:10   Link #1986
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he didnt really lose, it was some draw that Kallen got the short end of the stick, Suzaku was still alive and conscious while Kallen passed out and her Guren got destroyed first. just taking the hit to the cockpit on purpose to fake his death so the Zero Plan to continue. like the joker said, it was all part of the plan, lol, to fake his death.
Her Guren was missing both its arms and its head, this is not the same as being destroyed as EP 6 proved. The parts can easily be replaced as long as the core of the mech remains.

LA on the other hand was completely annihialted since its in a million pieces.

Also Suzaku said as much that even with his live geass he was not able to defeat her and the Guren since it ended in a draw, which was not what he was aiming for.
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Old 2008-10-01, 06:10   Link #1987
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Becoming Zero was part of Zero Requiem. Letting Kallen "kill" him as she did was not. He makes that abundantly clear during their battle. If he had wanted to lose he wouldn't have used his live Geass in the first place. The way in which he lost simply isn't something they could arrange.
Live Geass kicks in by itself. Suzaku does not control it. He held back and let Kallen win.
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Old 2008-10-01, 06:20   Link #1988
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Originally Posted by loltan View Post
Live Geass kicks in by itself. Suzaku does not control it. He held back and let Kallen win.
... Suzaku's been controlling his Geass since Turn 20.
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Old 2008-10-01, 06:29   Link #1989
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And besides, if it was a case that "Live Geass" was uncontrollable, it would prove that Suzaku's life was in danger and, through the "Live Geass" having an automatic turn on switch, prove that he was not/unable to hold back.

But since he's been controlling his Geass, this doesn't stand up. Just thought it was funny how contradictory it was to say that his Geass is uncontrollable and at the same time say he was holding back. The two can't happen at once!
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Old 2008-10-01, 07:03   Link #1990
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Originally Posted by loltan View Post
Live Geass kicks in by itself. Suzaku does not control it. He held back and let Kallen win.
his geass was on during the entire battle (from the first shot to the last blow)
and he said himself that he still cant win when using it
the "live on" thing isnt a superpower that he can regulate
it pushes him to his limits to insure that he doesnt die

and as far as holding back and "letting her win" well
just look at the last move of the fight (before the final blow)
kallen uses her signiture weapon (the right arm) in direct opposition to suzaku's signiture weapon (the spinzaku kick)
if this was a shonen anime this would be the part where both fighters smash their swords together for the final time
the outcome : the leg shatters to pieces while the arm remains
it doesnt get more symbolic then that
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Old 2008-10-01, 09:36   Link #1991
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Her Guren was missing both its arms and its head, this is not the same as being destroyed as EP 6 proved. The parts can easily be replaced as long as the core of the mech remains.


LA on the other hand was completely annihialted since its in a million pieces.

what does this have to do with the fight that ended in a draw? she passed out first, her guren went out first, and Suzaku survived a blast that there was no way she would of survived in time. she needed Gino to survive, Suzaku needed nobody! she got the short of the stick of the draw.

Kallen didnt stop Suzaku, she didnt killed him either and she didnt get to Lelouch or stop the Zero R. plan from happing. She failed on all those counts.

so what that the Guren didnt blow up and the LA did, it was stopped, it couldnt function. the machine was stopped on its tracked and it was more advanced.



Quote:
Also Suzaku said as much that even with his live geass he was not able to defeat her and the Guren since it ended in a draw, which was not what he was aiming for.
no he didnt. he said he couln't get a decisive blow when he was battling her at specific time using live geass, nothing of the sort that he couldn't defeat her or that he could of landed if it continue! he landed his decisive blow and stop the guren. all system crashed and stop functioning and collasped.
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Old 2008-10-01, 09:41   Link #1992
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And besides, if it was a case that "Live Geass" was uncontrollable, it would prove that Suzaku's life was in danger and, through the "Live Geass" having an automatic turn on switch, prove that he was not/unable to hold back.

But since he's been controlling his Geass, this doesn't stand up. Just thought it was funny how contradictory it was to say that his Geass is uncontrollable and at the same time say he was holding back. The two can't happen at once!
dude he has to fight it, he can control it but it is not something that he has complete control.

im not saying he was holding back, but he was fighting differently and he had enough time to counter and avoid the cockpit hit but he chosed to hacksaw the guren. he could of use one of the hacksaw to cut it and then use the other one to cut out one of the other arms! but to the Zero R. plan he had a great opportunity to disable it and fake his death.

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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
He was trying to win. He says as much when his live Geass won't let him land a decisive blow. Kallen landed that last hit fair and square.

she didnt land the hit without him allowing it! you think Live Geass will not warned him about such a blasted hit that was seen coming a mile away and that it could kill him. even a grunt could see the blasted hit coming. instead of countering such a deadly move and being an ace pilot he just haxed/disable the Guren instead and knowing that there was no escape pod?? i wonder about that until the Zero P was revealed.


Kallen passed out afterwards, if he decided counter the hit, she would of lost since her body could not take it no more and was passing out.
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Old 2008-10-01, 09:42   Link #1993
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no he didnt. he said he couln't get a decisive blow when he was battling her at specific time using live geass, nothing of the sort that he couldn't defeat her or that he could of landed if it continue! he landed his decisive blow and stop the guren. all system crashed and stop functioning and collasped.
he landed his final blow a second to late
the guren shut down after the blow had been delt (otherwise it wouldnt have landed)
both units shut down at the same time
and he said he couldnt end it even with his live geass

Quote:
im not saying he was holding back, but he was fighting differently and he had enough time to counter and avoid the cockpit hit but he chosed to hacksaw the guren. he could of use one of the hacksaw to cut it and then use the other one to cut out one of the other arms! but to the Zero R. plan he had a great opportunity to disable it and fake his death.
and he didnt have much of a choice
he couldnt move (since the leg was out) and she hit him with the right arm (which he harkened off)
but she used the left arm at the same time and the other hit conected
he may have faked his death
but he was trying to win right up till the end (the spinzaku kick)
he just couldnt

p.s it wasnt a cockpit hit (he wouldnt have survived one
she crashed the chestplate which coused it to short out and explode (just like the lancelot frontier that C.C was piloting)
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Old 2008-10-01, 10:16   Link #1994
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he landed his final blow a second to late
the guren shut down after the blow had been delt (otherwise it wouldnt have landed)
both units shut down at the same time
and he said he couldnt end it even with his live geass
Kallen was shown first to fall off and the guren. Albion didnt show a sign of shutting during the sametime...only after did you see Kallen passed out and her guren fall off is that we saw the LA show sparks. and i sometimes wonder if such a feat of him escaping so fast was even possible without him doing it himself, self destructing the LA on his own but i think the writers just didnt bother to explain that part.

Quote:
and he didnt have much of a choice
he couldnt move (since the leg was out) and she hit him with the right arm (which he harkened off)
but she used the left arm at the same time and the other hit conected
he may have faked his death
but he was trying to win right up till the end (the spinzaku kick)
he just couldnt

oh yes he did have a choice, it was planned out to fake his death, also he could of use it to hax that arm to the cockpit attack or just counter it t since it was cleary thrown first and it took alot of time to penetrate. he could of counter it before any of his other parts could of been affected but he didnt and took the opportunity to disable the guren and later fake his death. him saying that she did was all in part to make her and Gino believe that he was dead.

Suzaku wasnt even trying to kill Kallen unlike Kallen was trying to kill him.

Quote:
p.s it wasnt a cockpit hit (he wouldnt have survived one
she crashed the chestplate which coused it to short out and explode (just like the lancelot frontier that C.C was piloting)
who cares
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Old 2008-10-01, 10:29   Link #1995
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Kallen was shown first to fall off and the guren. Albion didnt show a sign of shutting during the sametime...only after did you see Kallen passed out and her guren fall off is that we saw the LA show sparks. and i sometimes wonder if such a feat of him escaping so fast was even possible without him doing it himself, self destructing the LA on his own but i think the writers just didnt bother to explain that part.

he probably ejected (why would a state of the art model not have an ejection block when the frontier had one)
and if you watch the scene where he tells her she hit him you clearly see and hear the albion shuting down (the cockpit lights in red)
and he didnt self destract (it was destroyed just like the frontir was)

Quote:
oh yes he did have a choice, it was planned out to fake his death, also he could of use it to hax that arm to the cockpit attack or just counter it t since it was cleary thrown first and it took alot of time to penetrate. he could of counter it before any of his other parts could of been affected but he didnt and took the opportunity to disable the guren and later fake his death. him saying that she did was all in part to make her and Gino believe that he was dead.
he lost the leg and was unable to move (you see his geass fully on)
he did what he could to keep her from killing him by blowing up the arm and trying to disable the guren
he did the same thing she did by using the final attack to finish the fight
her attack just happend to have more effect since it hit a spot that is more vital (thats why it exploded)

Quote:
Suzaku wasnt even trying to kill Kallen unlike Kallen was trying to kill him.
he was going all out to win the fight
he couldnt
and i dont think that spin kick was ment as a friendly gesture (since it has made unshielded units explode in the past)


Quote:
who cares
see part above
he didnt trigger it himself
it exploded the same way that the frontir did (and for the same reasons)
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Old 2008-10-01, 13:37   Link #1996
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he probably ejected (why would a state of the art model not have an ejection block when the frontier had one)
and if you watch the scene where he tells her she hit him you clearly see and hear the albion shuting down (the cockpit lights in red)
and he didnt self destract (it was destroyed just like the frontir was)
nothing was shown about him ejecting it....Kallen's mecha shut down completely when he cut it, then off her arms...you saw all the lights go out completely then you saw Albion shutting down as well but not completely...then Kallen passed out thinking she won but in reality she didnt won anything...Suzaku never passed out...then Guren broked apart and fell while Albion was still somewhat alive andd then it exploded.

point blank it was shown Kallen losing first then Suzaku even though Suzaku got his hit last and he even wasnt even trying to kill her unlike she was. live geass doesnt give Suzaku any physical powers or enhances his mecha, the main purpose is to keep him alive by avoiding danger. a blow to the cockpit like that, live geass will certainly pick it up, him struggling was more of him fighting geass and to continue keeping it under rapps since his mecha was still functioning when he got hit and fighting a more supposedly superior mecha in close combat.

Quote:
he lost the leg and was unable to move (you see his geass fully on)
he did what he could to keep her from killing him by blowing up the arm and trying to disable the guren
he did the same thing she did by using the final attack to finish the fight
her attack just happend to have more effect since it hit a spot that is more vital (thats why it exploded)
big deal he lost his leg, he could be able to move with the rope hooks to attach to the wall. the blow took time for it to break, he could of use the hax to cut apart the attack but he didnt and just let it continue on its path. if he didnt he wouldn't have lost much at all while kallen was on the verge of passing out and the guren being cut off from an arm or two.

he accomplished his goals, he stopped Kallen, disable the Guren, stop Kallen from reaching Lelouch, and Zero R. continue and was completed. Kallen didnt accomplished anything.

it was a draw that Kallen got the short end of the stick, she said in the beginning that she planned on stopping Suzaku and Lelouch and that meant Zero R. as well and she didnt.

Quote:
he was going all out to win the fight
he couldnt
and i dont think that spin kick was ment as a friendly gesture (since it has made unshielded units explode in the past)
he was going all out to disable her and not kill her and to fake his blasted death and he accomplished that. please you think a spin kick that was so wide and easily counter can do some major damage all of a sudden to a more advanced mecha? nope sorry try again. and that wasnt a spin kick, it was just some angle kick that could be easily blocked. that kick looked similar to the the kick he landed to Xinge-Li and it didnt stop him.

Quote:
see part above
he didnt trigger it himself
it exploded the same way that the frontir did (and for the same reasons)
not saying he did, but it would explain alot on how he escaped.
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Old 2008-10-01, 14:28   Link #1997
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After watching the episode and fight scene again; i think it clearly indicates that they were equally matched. It would have been nice to see the whole fight, but we can get his just from their comments. Both Kallen and Suzuka clearly state how great the other is for whatever reason. Trying to say that he was going easy on her is silly to me. His words directly contradict this. That in conjunction with the use of the "live" geass, which doesn't allow him to hold back, clearly shows that he was trying to win.

Last edited by Sinta; 2008-10-01 at 18:07.
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Old 2008-10-01, 17:29   Link #1998
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Now that I rewatched the fight, I can see it was more of a draw then anything else... If not for the Tristan the Guren woulda been smashed to smithereens as its float system was destroyed and Karen was passed out. But DAMN what a fight, if only they had machines of similar specs =(. I so wanted Suzaku to have a clear victory and not this on the sort of losing side but a tie finish.
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Old 2008-10-01, 18:28   Link #1999
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After watching the episode and fight scene again; i think it clearly indicates that they were equally matched. It would have been nice to see the whole fight, but we can get his just from their comments. Both Kallen and Suzuka clearly state how great the other is for whatever reason. Trying to say that he was going easy on her is silly to me. His words directly contradict this. That in conjunction with the use of the "live" geass, which doesn't allow him to hold back, clearly shows that he was trying to win.
nobody saying he was going all easy on her but he wasnt trying to kill her and he needed to fake his death. it was a draw but a draw that Kallen got the short end of the stick.


i really dont put too much emphasis on the complimenting each other part but if we do then when they complimented each other, the complimented was being directed to the Guren, not on Kallen or her skills because Kallen mentioned the Guren specs were superior to the Albion and wonder what power was driving Suzaku, certainly not live geass since Suzaku mentioned that he couldn't land a finishing blow at that specific time and he said it before Kallen complimented him. So obvious it was Suzaku's piloting skills.
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Old 2008-10-01, 18:50   Link #2000
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nobody saying he was going all easy on her but he wasnt trying to kill her and he needed to fake his death. it was a draw but a draw that Kallen got the short end of the stick.


i really dont put too much emphasis on the complimenting each other part but if we do then when they complimented each other, the complimented was being directed to the Guren, not on Kallen or her skills because Kallen mentioned the Guren specs were superior to the Albion and wonder what power was driving Suzaku, certainly not live geass since Suzaku mentioned that he couldn't land a finishing blow at that specific time and he said it before Kallen complimented him. So obvious it was Suzaku's piloting skills.
so the compliment was directed at the guren ?
not kallen ?
the pilot who uses the machine that no other pilot (other then probably suzaku) could pilot, and uses it to its full potential
do you really think that suzaku was complimenting the machine
he was fighting kallen in a battle that started with energy wings and beam weapons and ended up as a grounded fist fight becouse she was matching his every move
and he was using his geass from minute one

a few days before that he killed bismark
the most expirianced pilot in the world (possibly the best pilot)
who could also see the future
and who suzaku beat with bearly a scrach becouse he was using his geass curse

the guren might be the strongest knightmare ever built
but by the time he made that comment both machines have basiclly been reduced to the old versions (the original lancelot and the guren niishki) since everything else was basiclly sattered.
both were complimenting each other and pointing out their own (non effective) adventages werent enough becouse the other pilot was just too good
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