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Old 2009-05-20, 12:36   Link #2201
FruitsPunchSamurai
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
The lancelot can (and does) lose half of it's weapons in a battle and it's still a tie,but when ever the guren loses it arm it's viewed as a loss
She did lose her arm......
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Old 2009-05-20, 13:01   Link #2202
bladeofdarkness
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yes, and its viewed as a loss in the battle
which was my point all along

the whole point of the 7th gens is that they take theoretic tech from 6th generation and put it to actual use
the varis, MVS, harken busters, msv shields, hardon cannon and radiation surger are all 6th gen tech

you have two machines

one which has 9 of those 6th gen tech devices (2 shields, 2 MVS, 4 harken boosters, and the varis) which gives it defensive abilities and effective 6th gen weapons for all ranges of combat
an experimental Y-drive more powerful then anything else ever created (the core luminus) that allows it to POWER all those devices
and a frame laced completely with sakuradite which allows for much better energy conduction which allows both speed AND power beyond most frames

the other machine has only 1 form of 6th gen tech device that serves as a close range only weapon and can be (despite not intended to be) used as a shield
it has comperable speed with the lancelot, but then so does every other 7th gen that isnt a mass production unit (gekka, vincent)
and we know nothing suggesting that it has either an improved engine or sakuradite laced frame
in fact when Lloyd gets his hands on it, he replaces the original engine with a better version of the one that the lancelot has (the spinning glowing thing)

which machine do you think is stronger
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Old 2009-05-20, 13:43   Link #2203
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
yes, and its viewed as a loss in the battle
which was my point all along

the whole point of the 7th gens is that they take theoretic tech from 6th generation and put it to actual use
the varis, MVS, harken busters, msv shields, hardon cannon and radiation surger are all 6th gen tech

you have two machines

one which has 9 of those 6th gen tech devices (2 shields, 2 MVS, 4 harken boosters, and the varis) which gives it defensive abilities and effective 6th gen weapons for all ranges of combat
an experimental Y-drive more powerful then anything else ever created (the core luminus) that allows it to POWER all those devices
and a frame laced completely with sakuradite which allows for much better energy conduction which allows both speed AND power beyond most frames

the other machine has only 1 form of 6th gen tech device that serves as a close range only weapon and can be (despite not intended to be) used as a shield
it has comperable speed with the lancelot, but then so does every other 7th gen that isnt a mass production unit (gekka, vincent)
and we know nothing suggesting that it has either an improved engine or sakuradite laced frame
in fact when Lloyd gets his hands on it, he replaces the original engine with a better version of the one that the lancelot has (the spinning glowing thing)

which machine do you think is stronger
The SEITEN obviously, mainly the fact that it combines both Lloyd's and Rakshata's (and Cecil's) technical genius into one powerhouse KMF. It also helps that Kallen is a good pilot to boot as well. All the Albion has going is the pilot's genius and maneuverability to use it at it's full potential. Essentially if anyone but Suzaku would pilot the Albion it wouldn't of pose such a threat as it did in the last episodes.
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Old 2009-05-20, 13:49   Link #2204
bladeofdarkness
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actaully the original topic of discussion was the original guren vs original lancelot
watch the last page
no one questions that the SEITEN was stronger
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Old 2009-05-20, 13:55   Link #2205
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
actaully the original topic of discussion was the original guren vs original lancelot
watch the last page
no one questions that the SEITEN was stronger
Oh.....that's a tough one, they're pretty much even from head to toe, I always thought it was the pilots that made the machines who they are, but given anyone who pilots the Guren would spam the arm throughout the battle (which would be stupid). I would be interesting to see what Todouh would have done with the Guren.....
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Old 2009-05-20, 14:04   Link #2206
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I've always thought the original Lancelot was stronger than Guren. While Guren had higher fire power from the arm, its the only weapon that's probably useful against Lancelot.

Lancelot's MSV shields would render everything Guren had useless except the radiation blast. On top of that Lancelot is as agile as Suzaku is, doing Spinzaku kick and other stunts.

Lancelot also has a variety of powerful weapons, MVSword, VARIS Rifle, 4 Slash Harkens to Guren's 2 Slash Harkens and machine gun.

Lancelot was basically the strongest KMF in R1 until Gawain appeared.

Anyway, I just randomly popped in and saw that maybe I could post something.
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Old 2009-05-20, 14:41   Link #2207
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The Guren had the Lancelot beat in Stage 11, and Kallen proves she's just as agile in that short span. On the ground and toe to toe, the Guren is the better of the two. Sure it only has the one weapon, but it outdoes every other weapon.
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Old 2009-05-20, 14:45   Link #2208
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
The Guren had the Lancelot beat in Stage 11, and Kallen proves she's just as agile in that short span. On the ground and toe to toe, the Guren is the better of the two. Sure it only has the one weapon, but it outdoes every other weapon.
But if by chance it loses that weapon, its almost entirely useless. If Lancelot loses a weapon, it can just switch to another and continue the fight.
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Old 2009-05-20, 14:45   Link #2209
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
The Guren had the Lancelot beat in Stage 11, and Kallen proves she's just as agile in that short span. On the ground and toe to toe, the Guren is the better of the two. Sure it only has the one weapon, but it outdoes every other weapon.
What? We never even saw the end of the fight because she fell off the cliff.
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Old 2009-05-20, 14:46   Link #2210
bladeofdarkness
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naa
i have to say the lancelot was stronger
more weapons and shields
and speed same as the guren
the arm's power balances the fact that it has no range attacks

once the SEITEN upgrade however...
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Old 2009-05-20, 14:48   Link #2211
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Originally Posted by FruitsPunchSamurai View Post
What? We never even saw the end of the fight because she fell off the cliff.
True, but as it were, the Guren was slowly overwhelming the Lancelot. Personally, I don't think its entirely because of the machine: it was a lack of experience on Suzaku's part. Up until that point, he had never had to fight a machine that matched the specs of his own, so he had no real tactics to use against it. As we see later in the series, once he has experience in fighting Kallen and the Guren, he does much better and doesn't get overwhelmed by her.

And then Euphy died and Kallen really had a problem on her hands with the Lancelot.
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Old 2009-05-20, 14:50   Link #2212
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
naa
i have to say the lancelot was stronger
more weapons and shields
and speed same as the guren
the arm's power balances the fact that it has no range attacks

once the SEITEN upgrade however...
Which is ironic since the only time they beat one another was because one had an upgrade prior to the battle or during the battle.
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Old 2009-05-20, 14:51   Link #2213
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by FruitsPunchSamurai View Post
What? We never even saw the end of the fight because she fell off the cliff.
Thus saving Suzaku. She was blocking everything he threw at her, and he was running out of things for her to melt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
But if by chance it loses that weapon, its almost entirely useless. If Lancelot loses a weapon, it can just switch to another and continue the fight.
Still has the gun on the other arm and the harken. Besides, in the short fight they had, Suzaku lost nearly half his arsenal and couldn't touch the Guren.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
naa
i have to say the lancelot was stronger
more weapons and shields
and speed same as the guren
the arm's power balances the fact that it has no range attacks

once the SEITEN upgrade however...
It trades balance and defense for power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
True, but as it were, the Guren was slowly overwhelming the Lancelot. Personally, I don't think its entirely because of the machine: it was a lack of experience on Suzaku's part. Up until that point, he had never had to fight a machine that matched the specs of his own, so he had no real tactics to use against it. As we see later in the series, once he has experience in fighting Kallen and the Guren, he does much better and doesn't get overwhelmed by her.

And then Euphy died and Kallen really had a problem on her hands with the Lancelot.
I can accept some of this reasoning, but they don't fight much after Stage 11, and Kallen is still melting through his toys in their next battle. When Euphy died he could fly and she could not. That's the only reason he managed to come out on top.
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Old 2009-05-20, 14:51   Link #2214
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
True, but as it were, the Guren was slowly overwhelming the Lancelot. Personally, I don't think its entirely because of the machine: it was a lack of experience on Suzaku's part. Up until that point, he had never had to fight a machine that matched the specs of his own, so he had no real tactics to use against it. As we see later in the series, once he has experience in fighting Kallen and the Guren, he does much better and doesn't get overwhelmed by her.

And then Euphy died and Kallen really had a problem on her hands with the Lancelot.
he could fly by the end
which makes the fact that the guren only has close range attacks all the more of a weakness
but if anything, that last fight in season 1 proves how good kallen actually is
she has to attack an opponent that fly at point blank range
and she actually DOES it
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Old 2009-05-20, 14:54   Link #2215
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Thus saving Suzaku. She was blocking everything he threw at her, and he was running out of things for her to melt.
.
Right.....she totally have him beaten, that makes perfect sense coming from you (bias aside)
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Old 2009-05-20, 14:54   Link #2216
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Thus saving Suzaku. She was blocking everything he threw at her, and he was running out of things for her to melt.

Still has the gun on the other arm and the harken. Besides, in the short fight they had, Suzaku lost nearly half his arsenal and couldn't touch the Guren.

It trades balance and defense for power.
Well, yeah, but we never saw her use the gun so we don't know how much of a help it would be against the MSV shields, and the single harken seemed better suited for terrain management, like she used in their final battle in the first season.

As for that first fight you mentioned, like I said: it wasn't entirely the Guren that was deciding that battle. Suzaku had no experience against fighting such a machine. Once he did have the experience, arsenal loss was no longer a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
he could fly by the end
which makes the fact that the guren only has close range attacks all the more of a weakness
but if anything, that last fight in season 1 proves how good kallen actually is
she has to attack an opponent that fly at point blank range
and she actually DOES it
Oh, I'm aware that Kallen did superbly well in that fight, but I was mostly referring to Suzaku's mindset at the time. He wasn't aiming to incapacitate anymore, which is what he always tried to do when he fought Kallen and everyone else. In that battle, he was out for blood. I think Kallen would've still had a hard time even if the Lancelot didn't have the Air Cavalry equipment.
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Old 2009-05-20, 14:56   Link #2217
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Still has the gun on the other arm and the harken. Besides, in the short fight they had, Suzaku lost nearly half his arsenal and couldn't touch the Guren.
.
And neither did Kallen, what's your point?
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Old 2009-05-20, 14:58   Link #2218
bladeofdarkness
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are you saying that he was holding back during most of their fights until ep 24
since when ?
he uses every weapon he has in every fight they have (not all that many BTW, only 11, 13, 18)

and how much experiance does kallen have fighting something like the lancelot ?
she also gets much better with time
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Old 2009-05-20, 14:59   Link #2219
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Well, yeah, but we never saw her use the gun so we don't know how much of a help it would be against the MSV shields, and the single harken seemed better suited for terrain management, like she used in their final battle in the first season.
She used it once, and missed, but that was against Guilford and he could fly. It's a grenade launcher, so even blocking would throw Suzaku off balance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
As for that first fight you mentioned, like I said: it wasn't entirely the Guren that was deciding that battle. Suzaku had no experience against fighting such a machine. Once he did have the experience, arsenal loss was no longer a problem.
But it was. In their very next battle she melts at least once sword and he still cannot touch her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Oh, I'm aware that Kallen did superbly well in that fight, but I was mostly referring to Suzaku's mindset at the time. He wasn't aiming to incapacitate anymore, which is what he always tried to do when he fought Kallen and everyone else. In that battle, he was out for blood. I think Kallen would've still had a hard time even if the Lancelot didn't have the Air Cavalry equipment.
She would have had a hard time, but the flight pushed it over the edge. He wouldn't have had the option to retreat as he did when he got her arm. He'd still be on the ground and she'd still be a threat. Furthermore, he'd be unable to switch back to his sword without dropping the gun or leaving himself vulnerable while he holstered it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FruitsPunchSamurai View Post
And neither did Kallen, what's your point?
Neither did Kallen what? Touch him? I remember him getting his landsinner attachment melted off, his harkens getting destroyed, a sword destroyed, and a VARIS bullet blocked. Suzaku took damage, she did not, and the longer the fight went the more he'd lose.
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:00   Link #2220
bladeofdarkness
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actually he didnt HAVE any sword anymore, he was using both and had to throw one away to pull out the varis
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