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Old 2009-05-20, 15:06   Link #2221
Rising Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
She used it once, and missed, but that was against Guilford and he could fly. It's a grenade launcher, so even blocking would throw Suzaku off balance.
Okay, fair enough, I don't remember that part but that's because I don't have CG on this computer. I don't think it'd be all that useful if he had some distance between him. Like you said, he'd have to block, and I get the feeling he'd only have to do that if he was in melee range with her.

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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
But it was. In their very next battle she melts at least once sword and he still cannot touch her.
Well, yes, but I said it was no longer a problem, not that it no longer happened. With the experience he had, if Suzaku lost one weapon, he could switch to another and use a different tactic. That first battle basically consisted of "Switch to weapon, use it to get her the hell away". He was basically just trying to get her off of him and it wasn't working at all. He had no experience in fighting an equal opponent at that point in time.

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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
She would have had a hard time, but the flight pushed it over the edge. He wouldn't have had the option to retreat as he did when he got her arm. He'd still be on the ground and she'd still be a threat. Furthermore, he'd be unable to switch back to his sword without dropping the gun or leaving himself vulnerable while he holstered it.
Well, like I said, for that battle, I wasn't really referring to their machines, but to the pilot's mindset. Suzaku had, essentially, decided to stop fucking around with Kallen and just get her out of the way, whether that meant death or not. As it is, we really can't use this battle to the current discussion as we're no longer referring to equal machines.
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:06   Link #2222
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
actually he didnt HAVE any sword anymore, he was using both and had to throw one away to pull out the varis
He could always drop the gun to grab it, but now that I look closely you have a point. It's a choice between firing at a target which has proven it can dodge or grab the sword and go in close when it can still block.
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:08   Link #2223
bladeofdarkness
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again, what does it mean "he isnt used to fighting equal enemies"
like kallen is used to fighting the lancelot at that point

and your right about the last fight not being equal machines anymore
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:11   Link #2224
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Okay, fair enough, I don't remember that part but that's because I don't have CG on this computer. I don't think it'd be all that useful if he had some distance between him. Like you said, he'd have to block, and I get the feeling he'd only have to do that if he was in melee range with her.
Suzaku blocks almost everything. I could pull dozens of examples.To just use one, he tried to block the Hadron cannon and learned the hard way when it nearly overwhelmed him. Suzaku is too reliant on the shields.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Well, yes, but I said it was no longer a problem, not that it no longer happened. With the experience he had, if Suzaku lost one weapon, he could switch to another and use a different tactic. That first battle basically consisted of "Switch to weapon, use it to get her the hell away". He was basically just trying to get her off of him and it wasn't working at all. He had no experience in fighting an equal opponent at that point in time.
Even when he does later, that strategy doesn't change much. In their next battle, she melts the sword, so he kicks at her to get her to back off. Kallen fights "in your face" style and Suzaku couldn't match up at the time.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Well, like I said, for that battle, I wasn't really referring to their machines, but to the pilot's mindset. Suzaku had, essentially, decided to stop fucking around with Kallen and just get her out of the way, whether that meant death or not. As it is, we really can't use this battle to the current discussion as we're no longer referring to equal machines.
Fair enough. I don't think the mindset was that different, though, because he would have aimed at the cockpit if that were the case. He was trying to disable her still. Only when she wouldn't give up any information did he decide to finish her.
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:12   Link #2225
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
again, what does it mean "he isnt used to fighting equal enemies"
like kallen is used to fighting the lancelot at that point

and your right about the last fight not being equal machines anymore
All of his opponents had been weaker, 4th-generation and 6th-generation Knightmare Frames, which all have inferior reaction times to the Lancelot, along with inferior weaponry. It was the first time he had to fight an opponent that was using a machine that was equal to his own. Neither had experience in directly fighting the other, but Kallen had something Suzaku didn't.

The Black Knights had faced against the Lancelot before. Therefore, when facing against Suzaku, she knew what to expect; Suzaku didn't when it came to the Guren. This gave her the advantage of surprise when it came to their battle.

EDIT: Come on, guys, quit tag-teaming me. Its hard keeping up with both of your responses. :V
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:16   Link #2226
bladeofdarkness
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suzaku had more experiance in the lancelot (she just deployed the guren for the first time)
but she did already have time to test it out against some of britannia's best pilots (jeremia, cornellia)
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:19   Link #2227
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
All of his opponents had been weaker, 4th-generation and 6th-generation Knightmare Frames, which all have inferior reaction times to the Lancelot, along with inferior weaponry. It was the first time he had to fight an opponent that was using a machine that was equal to his own. Neither had experience in directly fighting the other, but Kallen had something Suzaku didn't.

The Black Knights had faced against the Lancelot before. Therefore, when facing against Suzaku, she knew what to expect; Suzaku didn't when it came to the Guren. This gave her the advantage of surprise when it came to their battle.

EDIT: Come on, guys, quit tag-teaming me. Its hard keeping up with both of your responses. :V
The Adult Swim boards are even worse. You make a decent argument here, but that same inexperience keeps showing in later battles. Suzaku always expects to be the best, and when that changes he does not adapt well.

The first against the Guren is the initial example. Then comes Turn 6 with the flying Guren, and Suzaku's still overconfident. So, when the Guren pins him down, he's all stressed out that it can be just as good as his Lancelot. Later the SEITEN shows up and blocks his Hadron blaster, and he just starts spamming it like crazy. He even thinks that close combat is better when the Guren is designed for that. Finally, when he's sitting pretty with the live command boosting his abilities in the Albion, he still cannot comprehend why Kallen is keeping up.

Suzaku started the show with a toy he was told is the best of the best, and this colors his reactions from then on. He has trouble accepting that he may be inferior, and his strategies reflect that.
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:20   Link #2228
Rising Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
suzaku had more experiance in the lancelot (she just deployed the guren for the first time)
but she did already have time to test it out against some of britannia's best pilots (jeremia, cornellia)
Yes, he had more experience in fighting in the Lancelot. That wasn't the point I was trying to make. Its experience in fighting each other that was disproportionate. He had no experience in fighting a weapon that was of the same caliber as Lancelot, while she had at least the experience of knowing what the Lancelot could do.

Morbofist, I'll reply to you after I finish making lunch.
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:22   Link #2229
bladeofdarkness
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when she saw the lancelot the first time it had no varis or MVS's
morbo does have a point about his shock and awe every time he finds himself faced with a machine equal or stronger then his own
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:38   Link #2230
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You know, instead of just replying to each point, I'm going to say this: I think we've fallen off-topic. This was about which machine was best, right? But its devolved into a Kallen vs. Suzaku topic. Which is nothing bad, of course, but I must say this:

We haven't been arguing about which machine is better, we've been arguing about which pilot was better. And all this talk of battle is reflecting that, because more often than not we're seeing how the pilot's making the difference here, and not the machine.
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:41   Link #2231
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I still put forward that the Guren is better, even if it does suffer slightly from overspecialization (SEITEN fixes that for the most part).
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:43   Link #2232
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
I still put forward that the Guren is better, even if it does suffer slightly from overspecialization (SEITEN fixes that for the most part).
Actually, I'd say that the Guren Kakoushiki was what fixed the overspecialization by giving it more varied ranged weapons; the Guren SEITEN Hakyokashiki simply took it to an extreme.
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:45   Link #2233
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Actually, I'd say that the Guren Kakoushiki was what fixed the overspecialization by giving it more varied ranged weapons; the Guren SEITEN Hakyokashiki simply took it to an extreme.
True, I forgot about the poor Kakoushiki, captured before its prime.
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:45   Link #2234
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if its machine then the original lancelot was better over all
the guren was better at close range, but suffered greatly for it in other ranges

the SEITEN upgread made it better then any other machine
but that actually raises the question of why that is
why wouldnt Lloyd just twik up the albion to match it
he did after all have a better energy wing system
why not spec it up (considering who he'd be facing no doubt)
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:49   Link #2235
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
if its machine then the original lancelot was better over all
the guren was better at close range, but suffered greatly for it in other ranges

the SEITEN upgread made it better then any other machine
but that actually raises the question of why that is
why wouldnt Lloyd just twik up the albion to match it
he did after all have a better energy wing system
why not spec it up (considering who he'd be facing no doubt)
He couldn't. The Albion was built, from scratch, to be Suzaku's perfect machine. Lloyd's mechanisms aren't that easy to modify post-production. Rakshata is clearly a much more modular designer, thus the Guren rebuild was a cakewalk in comparison. Plus they went nuts and overspec'd it, which they couldn't do with the Lancelot.
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:50   Link #2236
Rising Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
if its machine then the original lancelot was better over all
the guren was better at close range, but suffered greatly for it in other ranges

the SEITEN upgread made it better then any other machine
but that actually raises the question of why that is
why wouldnt Lloyd just twik up the albion to match it
he did after all have a better energy wing system
why not spec it up (considering who he'd be facing no doubt)
I wonder if the Radiation Wave technology requires parts that are otherwise difficult to get for Britannia. That's the only thing I can think of that prevents Britannia from incorporating the technology into their own machines. So far the only machines we've seen that incorporate Britannian tech with Black Knight tech is the Guren SEITEN Hakyoukashiki and the Sutherland Sieg.
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:53   Link #2237
bladeofdarkness
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the funny part is we dont actually know WHAT about the SEITEN was better
it doesnt seem faster or stronger
it cant be the radiation tech alone becouse it was never mentioned as higher spec'd
what exactly about it was more "high spec" that kallen mentions

i still think they added it at the last moment becouse they needed kallen to say something during that exchange
when you think about it it doesnt even make sense for kallen to say it beocuse she wouldnt have the slightest idea about the albion's specs
if it came from Lloyd or suzaku i'd understand it
Lloyd did build both and i'd be surprised if suzaku's first question after getting it wouldnt be "how well would it hold against the guren"
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Old 2009-05-24, 06:55   Link #2238
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Lancelot was basically the strongest KMF in R1 until Gawain appeared.
I don't know about that. Watch the part in EP 23 when C.C. fires the Gawains hadron cannons at the Lancelot and even though Suzaku says "i can't block the hadron cannon" if you look closely enough you can clearly see its blaze luminous shield deflecting the Hadron blast(admittedly i was watching th EP on Bluray so its alot clearer). They might not stop a head on hit, but its shields can nullify it to a certain extent.

Now if the Gawain had blaze luminous shields(which it should have had) then it would've been the top mech with a perfect offense and defense.
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Old 2009-05-24, 07:04   Link #2239
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cornellia almost took down the Gawain in a freaking glosster
its good for SOME THINGS
but its not the best weapon for any KMF warfare
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Old 2009-05-24, 07:17   Link #2240
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
cornellia almost took down the Gawain in a freaking glosster
its good for SOME THINGS
but its not the best weapon for any KMF warfare
And another thing, the Gawain has seriously crap armor. Look at the size of the thing you kinda expect them to put some seriously heavy armor on it since the massive float unit it has would render the question of weight a moot point, but no it ends up with armor so weak that a standard knightmare machine gun deals out some serious pain to it.

Really if the Lancelot was an experimental test machine with all those toys and gadgets why shouldn't the Gawain have got some of them too? It was built by Llyod as well(or at least he designed it) and we know what hes like for just sticking gadgets onto things.

For one of Llyods babies the Gawain srsly sucked ass compared to his other inventions.
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