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Old 2007-01-20, 05:08   Link #61
Zu Ra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Small One
You can't really call this a fact, when you start your sentence with "most likely".
Quote:
Seated officers are the remainder of the officers in the Gotei 13 who hold ranks at or below 3rd Seat. Captains have the rank of 1st Seat and lieutenants are 2nd Seat. Next to that, there are 18 more seats (3rd to 20th). There seems to be a distinction between senior and junior seated officers, just like in real-life armies. In the Gotei 13, only one person can hold a senior officer rank (such as 3rd or 5th seat), but there are several holders of junior officer ranks (e.g. 20th seat). This may vary from division to division however, as there are two 3rd Seats in the 13th Division. In Japanese, the rank is usually spelled using the seat number followed by the word seat [for example, 3rd Seat (三席 sanzeki)].
I said Seated Officer a seated officer is not always Taicho or Fuku Rank he can be a 3rd seat 4 th seat and so on.

Quote:
Now, why do you think it's more evident or logic, that he is related to the king, than that he is "just" a royal guard?

Well, the knowledge is no hint, since he could have heard it from Urahara. And the fact that he defeated GF also doesn't mean much. After all GF sucks, and was just a normal hollow-Arrankar, even though that means he is a hybrid, he probably was still weaker, than a non-hybrid Menos.
All these points have been discussed in other threads SS King Thread Isshin Thread also the The Urahara Databook Thread

You might have forgotten these threads as they are old . But I do clearly remember you have posts in those threads . Well when we ( generality ) discussed them it neither proven or disproven so the word Speculation . Also these points arent bizzare as Ishhin being a vizzard are they now this is illogical

Quote:
BTW, there is a list-command to structure you posts...
And: Do you have a special system which words get a different color, and which not, or do you just do it randomly?
Why would I color cordinate sentences randomly I mean even cosmetically they arent artistic The reason is simple If you have tackled essay type questions in competitive exams thats the golden rule . Examiners dont have the time to read all your points they look for the jist and skip the expalantion part .

So when you highlight certain sentences the reader can get the jist of the point and not bother about reading the whole post

Also there is the other thing they are higlighted so it will defiantely catch your eye Its the same logic used in Ad world when it comes to advertising with scantily clad women Catching your Eye thats the keyord
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Old 2007-01-20, 15:20   Link #62
hdx514
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if anything it is unlikely that isshin was even part of the gotei 13 because someone as well informed as shinji who sniffed out aizen's little secret and knew everything about ichigo didn't even realize isshin's reiatsu.

and isshin is the shounen hero's dad who revealed his power in the most recent hybrid arc where main enemy level > average captain and he talks about captain class zanpakutou. it's common sense that he could not have been a bloody 4th seat.

but brilliant logic is always enlightening~

G: the FACT is, "A" most likely belongs to "Category X"
T: you can't call it a FACT when it's "most likely"
G: yes i can, because "Category X" has several sub-categories.

AXIOM: "For any given entity "A" and classification "Category X": "A" most likely belongs to "Category X" is a fact if and only if "Category X" has more than one sub-categories" this applies even when A might not belong to category X.

hence it is a FACT that tatsuki is most likely an arrancar, because arrancars are not always espadas or ex-espadas, she could be numeros or exequias. and at the same time it's a FACT that tatsuki is a seated officer, because seated officers are not always taicho or fuku she can be a 3rd or 4th seat.
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Old 2007-01-20, 16:33   Link #63
Zu Ra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
It looks like you didn't get the main point of my post: I think you should rethink, or completely drop the distinction of fact/specualtion and so on.
I got your point loud and clear yesterday I just didnt want to type yeah I was lazy it was 3 am so am doing it now .

Quote:
You can't just call something a fact, when you begin it with "most likely". It just defies the definition of the word fact.
Let me give you one small reason GF is a low level arrancar just a hollow hybrid . Is a trashy arrancar ... Isshin did slay GF in one swing . As the three stooges went and crushed lower rank officers in SS did you not estimate / grasp the power potential of seated officers . ?

If Isshin wasnt a seated office ... that means his power potential is less than top 20 in a div . Do you think he could have taken on GF . Why did I use most likely simply for the reson you have to deduce this . Also I used seated officer not taicho or fuku ..

Yes its not stated in manga but cant you derive this simple fact/conclusion if you compare Isshin with a seated officers ( and I am talking about 5 th seat and below )

Quote:
And it's basically the same with the "royal guard"/"relative of the king" issue. We have no hints, that would put one of the theories over the other, so grouping them into two different categories just seems wrong. (At least I can't remember that we had any hints which would favor one of the possibilities, though I do remember that we discussed about it.)
Why speculation and not a myth . Isshin is the biological father of Ichigo And in the SS King Thread it was speculated Ichigo is Descendant of SS king . No one seem to disgaree on that including yourself .

SS King Thread

Is there even one point to back up Isshin is a Vizzard ?

See now why I used speculation and myth to diffrentiate these two

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdx514 View Post
but brilliant logic is always enlightening~

G: the FACT is, "A" most likely belongs to "Category X"
T: you can't call it a FACT when it's "most likely"
G: yes i can, because "Category X" has several sub-categories.

AXIOM: "For any given entity "A" and classification "Category X": "A" most likely belongs to "Category X" is a fact if and only if "Category X" has more than one sub-categories" this applies even when A might not belong to category X.

hence it is a FACT that tatsuki is most likely an arrancar, because arrancars are not always espadas or ex-espadas, she could be numeros or exequias. and at the same time it's a FACT that tatsuki is a seated officer, because seated officers are not always taicho or fuku she can be a 3rd or 4th seat.
Its better than stating Bankai Renji > Shikai Ichigo . Its funny you know big words like Axiom but dont have grasp of simple words as Suicidal. i.e. Ikkaku is suicidal

Let me give you a fact to dwell on Your are the biggest Aizen Fanboy in non healthy way .You call others fanboys , He is a Toshiro Fanboy , He is a Renji fanboy . But you are the biggest Fanboy in a non healthy way Why ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdx514 View Post
"cool" is a matter of personal taste, like handsomeness. power, or for example, height, on the other hand, is not. you can label aizen as the lamest villian in shounen history and that has about as much credibility as me labling whoever as the worst whatever of all time. bleach is a shounen fighting manga. who cares about coolness, or looks, or personality, it's all about one's butt-kicing prowess
Yes after reading it again your a Fangirl not a Fanboy NO ONE uses Handsome Height as the reason for being a fanboy of chracter . Your the first person to ever imply Aizen is handsome did we discuss he is a dork and Yamaji having more personality than him .. Aha I see You find Ichigo cool because of his god like abs -wink wink - . Though I have never heard other Fan Boys ( you alone claim ) use handsome while stating something about their fave chracter .

One more thing for the love of sanity go read some more shonen manga . You got the most twisted logic on shonen manga . Your defintion of shonen manga is way off by miles . If you dont belive me lets take a poll on who agree with your defintion of bleach shonen manga . Leaving you and that other troll sn of yours Cooper no one will agree ,
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Old 2007-01-21, 02:11   Link #64
hdx514
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If Isshin wasnt a seated office ... that means his power potential is less than top 20 in a div.
you're still missing the whole point. being a seated officer =/= being of seated officer class, comprende? is ichigo a seated officer? is his potential below top 20 in any division? the simple fact is that we do not at present know if isshin was even a member of gotei 13. there're royal guards, royal family and other troups in S.S. none of them seated on gotei 13.

Quote:
Its better than stating Bankai Renji > Shikai Ichigo.
finally you're seeing things straight~

Quote:
Aizen Fanboy in non healthy way .You call others fanboys , He is a Toshiro Fanboy , He is a Renji fanboy . But you are the biggest Fanboy in a non healthy way Why ??
for the umpteenth time,
who said aizen can fool the whole of S.S. with shikai? kubo
who said aizen can 1 hit ko multiple bankai captains? kubo
who said aizen can rule menos? kubo
who said aizen reiatsu kill grimmjow? kubo
who said aizen is beyond stars and skies? kubo

who said rukia will soon get bankai? not kubo
who said bankai renji can do more damage than shikai ichigo to shikai byakuya? not kubo
who said bankai ikkaku is much stronger than gillian arrancar? not kubo
who said hitsugaya will get catastrophe kai and pwn aizen? not kubo

before calling someone a fanboy, how about at least provide some evidence of this person dreaming up stuff a lot more far-fetched regarding the character than the original author has already presented in his manga?

Quote:
Your the first person to ever imply Aizen is handsome
Quote:
Aha I see You find Ichigo cool because of his god like abs
Quote:
Leaving you and that other troll sn of yours Cooper no one will agree , oops also that other troll sn which you use to post in Code Greass.
tsk tsk tsk, running out of arguments and desperately resorting to baseless accusations. very nice, i like

You got the most twisted logic on shonen manga . Your defintion of shonen manga is way off by miles.
if it is so twisted then there has got to be undisputable evidence from the manga to clearly show how off my views are. present them. your statements carry no weight otherwise.

and for the umpteenth time, if i'm off by a googolplex parsecs then please do gather all those who are confident that rukia/matsumoto/yumichika will get bankai and any VC or seated officer will be able to win against average espada in 60 chapters and i'll bet against the whole lot of you 2:1. since i'm completely missing the point here, there's no way you can loose so why chicken out on a riskless 5 dollar investment?
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Old 2007-01-21, 11:53   Link #65
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Maybe he liked Grand Fisher better then his real name ("Guys my name isn't Bob any more call me Grand Fisher". "Ok, BOB."), or he gave his name to one of the Shinigami he has escaped from?
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Old 2007-01-21, 12:41   Link #66
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
I noted some things about Grand fisher, which I didn't realize before and seem a bit plothole-ish:

At first: I just realized it during the newest anime episode: Grand Fisher changed his appearance during his encounter with Isshin. But he did this without releasing his Zanpakutou. Now is this his special ability as a hollow, like the puppet thing he had before, or is this something all Arrankar are able to do? And if they all can do it: Why didn't we see anybody else do this up until now?
I think his hybridization process was probably incomplete and he finished it at that moment. Before that he still had his full mask on, he had just pushed it away from his face. He gets bigger when he shatters the top of his mask.
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Old 2007-01-21, 16:33   Link #67
Zu Ra
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Erm I hate posting stuff already discussed oO

All shinigamis were a part of Gotei 13 at one point of time . Ichigo now is part of Gotei 13 he is a substitute shinigami now . Atleast name one other Shinigami who became a shinigami like Ichigo , If Isshin wasnt a seated officer he would be another Ura creation I dont think so ...


RoYal Gaurd seriously ? Why does Aizen need to transform into a Vizard ? to prove to everyone he dosent have a small pepe . No to take on SS king and Royal Gaurd . You can guage Royal Gaurd's power . I mean you have seen the current bunch of Vizards If you have seen their power You could Imagine Power generated when a Taicho class shinigami becomes a vizard Have you wondered why Aizen needs that much power . If Isshin was a Royal Gaurd he could have done what Aizen did to Grimm to GF . He didnt even need to use zanapkuto

Ichigo acheived Shikai during battle with Zaraki ... at that point of time Ichigo couldnt even use Getsuga Tensho .... or he would have done it to cut Zaraki .... Still wannna continue on Shikai Ichigo > Banakai Renji . Also its not Bankai Ichi > Banakai Renji its actaully . B . Ichi >> B . Renji . Its >> not >
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Old 2007-01-21, 16:54   Link #68
Zu Ra
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
Ah... definately not!

It was explained, that after graduating from the Shinigami academy, the Shinigami can either join the Gotei 13, or one of the other two groups (secret ops and kidou group ?).
So no, not every Shinigami belongs to th Gotei 13.
You are correct her but we have seen secret ops ? ( Soi vs Yoru ) they rarely rely on zanapkuto they are main form of combat is Hand to hand . Even Yoru takes on Yami without a zanapkuto ...
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Old 2007-01-21, 19:24   Link #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
I noted some things about Grand fisher, which I didn't realize before and seem a bit plothole-ish:

The second thing is: There is this manga scan of Grand Fisher becoming an Arrankar. What I wondered though: He is called "Grand Fisher" by some of his hollow-friends. How can this be? I'm pretty sure, that (ar least in the anime) Rukia explained, that it were the Shinigami, who gave this name to this specific hollow. (Actually, at the time it didn't look like hollows would have any names at all) So why should he use the name, he was given by his enemies?
He's a notorious Hollow, so it's likely that Shinigami gave him his name. Maybe...

Shinigami: Auugh! It's the Grand Fisher! He's the one who ate Bob last week!
Grand Fisher: Hey, I like that name! From now on, I will call myself Grand Fisher :B

This doesn't explain how Orihime's brother's Hollow got the name Acidwire, since he didn't get the chance to fight any other Shinigami.
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Old 2007-01-22, 00:52   Link #70
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IMHO GF was one of the failed experiments of Aizen before getting the Hogyoku He was trying to create Hybrids in SS namely kaien Hollow , The Hollow RenjiShuhei n Co faced . I belive GF was created during that time
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Old 2007-01-22, 01:57   Link #71
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Another thing of mention is that not all the characters are properly represented by their seated rank.

Abarai Renji was the 6th seat in Zaraki's division before being transfered as lieutenant of Byakuya's division. Renji could've suddenly gotten stronger after he transfered, or he could have been the second strongest in Zaraki's division. Either way, it shows that mere rank alone cannot gauge someone's power.

Some (such as Aizen) have even sucessfully hidden their power (not just his abilities, but his seriously rigged reiatsu).

Hah, Isshin could've been Makimaki's predecessor for all we know =P
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Old 2007-01-22, 06:45   Link #72
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that's because zaraki's squad is full of insanely powerful people! we don't really know that guy who is ranked 4 (it's actually Yumichika, but the numer 3 what prettiest and Ikkaku had that so number 5 was the next prettiest), but we know pretty darn well 1, 2, 3, 5 and 20 (Maki Maki... we don't really know his number, but it's a safe guess). anyhow, we already know that Ikkaku is ridiculously powerful when in bankai mode and Yumichika's shikai is pretty insane. so being number 6 behind those guys is way higher rank of power than if he had been number 3 seat in Squad 2. that would mean he'd be behind soi fong (no argument there, she's strong) and fatty Marechiyo Ōmaeda, who is a worthless tool that ichigo dedfeated with his bare hands. see? if Ranji were 3 in squad 2 it wouldn't mean nearly as much as being 6 in squad 11.

as for isshin, i was thinking about the theory that a lot of people have that he was former 11 captain and he didn't die or he faked his death at the hands of zaraki to escape soul society. i don't know about this at all, but i've read it several times before. anyway, all i was thinking was, if that were true, then ichinose would feel like a total idiot (if he hadn't died).

as to grand fisher, in ep 62-63 when aizen monologues at rukia and ichigo, doesn't it show flashbacks of gran fisher and the kaien hollow? i thought when he talked about experiments, it actually showed those clips. or did i just imagine that???
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Old 2007-01-22, 08:19   Link #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lommm View Post
that's because...zaraki's squad is full of insanely powerful people! ...
I think your verbiage is incorrect here, "that's because" sounds like you are disagreeing with me, but if you re-read my post, you'll find out you are actually agreeing with me, and merely proving my point.

Additionally, there are problems with your quote. Ichigo handled Ikakku pretty easily early on, while Renji was already much stronger at that point in time.

Let's examine your quote: as you are mentioning bankai (which I am fairly sure Renji achieved earlier anyway). This is meaningless without context. If you are trying to say that Ikkaku was stronger than Renji and he indeed was meant to be a 6th seat, then you've proven my point--he's good enough for vice captain in another division.

And if you are wrong, that additionally proves my point, if Renji was more than capable of being a 6th seat.

Either contingency works for my assertion.

Last edited by astrallionheart; 2007-01-22 at 08:36.
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Old 2007-01-22, 12:00   Link #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
I was readig some posts in Isshin thread to avoid posting Isshin Spoilers there here is MythBuster Post here

# Facts : ( From Manga )


- Powers Sealed Away regained in Second season He wasnt hiding them he couldnt use them

- Knows Ryuken and Urahara . Ryuuken knows about his powers being sealed away

- Most likely A Seated officer ( Rank Unknown )



# Speculations ( Some Evidence and Logic )


- Is a descendant of SS King

- Is of Taicho rank as his knowledge about workings of a shinigami are exceptional . Also the ease with which he disposed GF

- Exile has something to do with helping Urahara Escape

- Probably changed his last name to KUROSAKI or Adopted Masaki's Last Name Kurosaki . thats the reason his name is unheard off in likes of SS



# Myths ( No theories or lil evidence ) *


- Is a Vizzard

- Is a Royal Gaurd

- Is a Mod Soul




*( Feel free to make up stuff =)
nice info but i wouldnt consider isshin anywhere near a seated officer, the fact he stated hes "captain level" and not a captain basically tells you along with his "captain similar outfit" that he is most likely of another section that isnt the gotei 13 he could be a member of the rotal guard or the royal family wich would explain ichigos insane reiatsu (the heads of noble familes are born with above average reiatsu) this would lean him closer to a higher nobility then the 5 we know.
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Old 2007-01-22, 12:06   Link #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallionheart View Post
I think your verbiage is incorrect here, "that's because" sounds like you are disagreeing with me, but if you re-read my post, you'll find out you are actually agreeing with me, and merely proving my point.

Additionally, there are problems with your quote. Ichigo handled Ikakku pretty easily early on, while Renji was already much stronger at that point in time.

Let's examine your quote: as you are mentioning bankai (which I am fairly sure Renji achieved earlier anyway). This is meaningless without context. If you are trying to say that Ikkaku was stronger than Renji and he indeed was meant to be a 6th seat, then you've proven my point--he's good enough for vice captain in another division.

And if you are wrong, that additionally proves my point, if Renji was more than capable of being a 6th seat.

Either contingency works for my assertion.
i think ikkaku's ability to use bankai was thrown in at the last minute just so they can give him a fighting chance against a arrancar. apparently from how they speak of it ide say ikkaku supposedly reached bankai before renji but that would contradict his first battle with ichigo wich he got slapped around by a non-bankai ichigo. thers no set system for the laws of power and pysics for the shinigami so its always going to end up in a contradiction till kubo disides to shed some light and lay a few ground rules. but think of it this way, 3 captains defected so they need 3 slots, ironically alot of seated officers are suddenly doing bankai so i wouldnt be surprised if it was to fill in the empty captain spots with already introduced characters.
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Old 2007-01-22, 18:12   Link #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felixm477 View Post
nice info but i wouldnt consider isshin anywhere near a seated officer, the fact he stated hes "captain level" and not a captain basically tells you along with his "captain similar outfit" that he is most likely of another section that isnt the gotei 13 he could be a member of the rotal guard or the royal family wich would explain ichigos insane reiatsu (the heads of noble familes are born with above average reiatsu) this would lean him closer to a higher nobility then the 5 we know.
Or else he's a former captain. Captain is a position, not a power. If he was a captain 150 years ago, then he's only a "captain level" shinigmai now.
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Old 2007-01-22, 22:33   Link #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felixm477 View Post
i think ikkaku's ability to use bankai was thrown in at the last minute just so they can give him a fighting chance against a arrancar. apparently from how they speak of it ide say ikkaku supposedly reached bankai before renji but that would contradict his first battle with ichigo wich he got slapped around by a non-bankai ichigo. thers no set system for the laws of power and pysics for the shinigami so its always going to end up in a contradiction till kubo disides to shed some light and lay a few ground rules. but think of it this way, 3 captains defected so they need 3 slots, ironically alot of seated officers are suddenly doing bankai so i wouldnt be surprised if it was to fill in the empty captain spots with already introduced characters.
Yeah, it sounds highly unlikely Ikkaku achieved bankai at that time. As Urahara mentioned, when Ichigo left he was about a 3rd or 4th seat. Unless we patently can prove that Urahara intentionally meant "a 3rd or 4th seat that was actually near captain level, with bankai, but pretending to be only at the same level as other 3rd or 4th seats", then I'd say this either shows Kubotite means to show there is variable power levels in his ranking system (i.e., more political than a power ranking), or has no idea what he's doing.
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Old 2007-01-22, 23:41   Link #78
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^Have you ever thought about the fact that he could probably reluctant to release in SS, his power jump would surely attract his Captain
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Old 2007-01-23, 00:05   Link #79
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^

That could apply to everyone. The case by case effects would then be nullified.
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Old 2007-01-23, 00:24   Link #80
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^ Yes, but then attracting his Captain's attention is not good for health .. See how Ichigo suffers it

Also, he already stated (to Renji) why he never told anyone about his bankai state.

I'm not saying you are wrong about KT just pull something out at that moment for the sake of story .. I'm just trying to fill the holes with logical reasoning
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