Forum Tidiness and Cleandiness.

[felix]

Just wanted to ask something... it's been bugging me for a while.
Why are there multiple rule threads in forums. I just don't get it.

For example in the Fansubbed forum, what's the diffrence in content between Fansubs Forum Guidelines [Please Read Me First] thread and the Do NOT ask when the next episode will be released! thread.

Or for example in the Naruto forum the Naruto Forum Rules |Spoilers only in [Manga] threads!| and the Spoilers will lead to a BAN! [Read on] thread.
etcetera...

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BTW can rules in forums just be marked with simple icons like for example and , instead of hard to read annoying to look at syntax, causing ugly clutter in stikies.

Just as an example of an alternative system, you could call all rule threads:
Rules.
...for the special cases just add a little tag to give people a short and sweet hint to make them read it, for example, for the Naruto forum:
Rules. [No Spoilers]
...and for license rules:
Licensed!

Just a suggestion

[xris]

Originally Posted by Cats

Why are there multiple rule threads in forums. I just don't get it.

Once day we might well clean up the stickies in the various forums but please don't hold your breath while waiting.

As for why.... there are a number of different reasons, some I find obvious some not so obvious. As for explaining why, sorry but I'm not going to spend my time explaining all the reasons. It's not as if we have a moral obligation to explain every little aspect on the whys and wherefores on how these forums are run. It's not as if you are paying us to do a job here. If it bugs you, sorry but it's something you will have to live with.

Originally Posted by Cats

BTW can rules in forums just be marked with simple icons like for example and , instead of hard to read annoying to look at syntax, causing ugly clutter in stikies.

This again seems to suggest you and I are living on different planets. Since when does the icon mean Rules. Since when does mean Licensed. In fact I would love to see icons that immediately suggest those concepts to the majority of people as opposed to the "hard to read". "annoying to look at" and "causing ugly clutter" basic words of Rules and Licensed.

So as far as I can see, it's unlikely we will start using such icons to "identify" such threads.

[felix]

It was just a suggestion xD
As for the choise in icons.. just a neutral simple example.

[The Small One]

Originally Posted by xris

So as far as I can see, it's unlikely we will start using such icons to "identify" such threads.

That's sad.
Personally I was hoping especially for a set of icons to replace those ugly [MANGA-only], [SPOILER], [ANIME-only] and so on... tags.
It shouldn't even be a problem from the technical side... though it would probably take a few days to get the users accustomed to it.

[felix]

Originally Posted by The Small One

It shouldn't even be a problem from the technical side...

Correction: There SHOULDN'T...
As in there is... well, more of a complication actually...

Ohh.. and xris is aginst it.
(that is: altering forum software in a any innocent way)

[monir]

Originally Posted by xris

Once day we might well clean up the stickies in the various forums but please don't hold your breath while waiting.

As for why.... there are a number of different reasons, some I find obvious some not so obvious. As for explaining why, sorry but I'm not going to spend my time explaining all the reasons. It's not as if we have a moral obligation to explain every little aspect on the whys and wherefores on how these forums are run. It's not as if you are paying us to do a job here. If it bugs you, sorry but it's something you will have to live with.

Cats' curiosities are endless and so are Cats' proddings and questions! Since I've squeezed out a bit more time, I'll attempt an answer to satisfy the curious. The answer might even convince Cats once and for all, that the Rule-makers do indeed put some thoughts behind them before sticking it in to a particular section of the forum.

Originally Posted by Cats

Just wanted to ask something... it's been bugging me for a while.
Why are there multiple rule threads in forums. I just don't get it.

For example in the Fansubbed forum, what's the diffrence in content between Fansubs Forum Guidelines [Please Read Me First] thread and the Do NOT ask when the next episode will be released! thread.

Or for example in the Naruto forum the Naruto Forum Rules |Spoilers only in [Manga] threads!| and the Spoilers will lead to a BAN! [Read on] thread.
etcetera...

You are correct to observe that couple of the above rules superceded the general rule that are in place in those particular forums. The reason for that is to put more emphasis on a certain rule to deal with circumastances that arise often enough in a particular section of the forums. For example, Spoiler has been a constant problem in the Naruto section of the forum. The rules have always been there, but the problem still persists. Two probable reason for the problem are:

a) fans didn't read the rule;
b) fans don't care!

Hence, the birth of the BAN-rule! It attempts to draw attention to both of those categories of fans mentioned above, and give them a fair incentive why the fans shouldn't spoil.

The Do-Not-ask rule is created for the similar purpose, to prevent fans from relentlessly asking about when the next episode will be released (Relentlessflame has nothing to do with this example ), though it doesn't have any added incentive to follow the rule like the BAN-rule. While all of us do like to give the benefit of the doubt that every posters in this forum have read every rule there is, the moderators have to be practical when the visual evidence suggest otherwise. Those sub-rules are there to draw attention to a particular rule to address a persisting problem in a particular section of the forum, i.e. Spoilers in Naruto section.

[NightWish]

Originally Posted by The Small One

I was hoping especially for a set of icons to replace those ugly [MANGA-only]...

They might look nice but unless you can demonstrate an icon that universally means the same as "Manga Only" it doesn't improve usability. This is, of course, assuming people remember to "tag" the thread with the correct image in the first place...

Originally Posted by Cats

Correction: There SHOULDN'T...
As in there is... well, more of a complication actually...

More misinformation or do you know something I don't? As far as I am aware adding icons to the list of possible thread/post images poses no technical problems.

Currently the issue is that we don't have an icon that we feel is suitably representative and we have yet to conceive of one that will be... making the change pointless. It is this that is the problem. Now, if someone were to provide a set of images that are suitable (and we trial them by running both tagging systems in parallel) we might get somewhere...

[The Small One]

Originally Posted by NightWish

They might look nice but unless you can demonstrate an icon that universally means the same as "Manga Only" it doesn't improve usability.

Icons usually get their meaning through the usage. It could be an abstract image of a manga/book, or a big red exclamation mark. The point is: After a few days, people will start to recognise it as the "manga"/"spoiler"/whatever-Icon.
I've seen a forum, where they had an animated lighted red lamp to mark spoiler threads, and it worked.

Originally Posted by NightWish

This is, of course, assuming people remember to "tag" the thread with the correct image in the first place...

Well, who doesn't tag the thread right gets banned... simple as that. Who once got banned won't forget to tag correctly the next time.
Of course if it gets introduced, it would provide a better headstart, if the people would get a short introduction into the new concept, like before entering the forum everyone gets to see a page with the explanation on what the new icons are, and what they are meant for. Sticky threads tend to be ignored.

Currently the issue is that we don't have an icon that we feel is suitably representative and we have yet to conceive of one that will be... making the change pointless. It is this that is the problem. Now, if someone were to provide a set of images that are suitable (and we trial them by running both tagging systems in parallel) we might get somewhere...

I could thing of a few possibilities, however I'm not good with creating graphics, so this is more something for the creative guys of the forum. Maybe you should just make some sort of competition, like with the banners at the top.

[Radiosity]

I can see absolutely no benefits to replacing a text label that clearly defines the rules of a thread (MANGA ONLY, NO SPOILERS, whatever.) Looking pretty has nothing to do with it, it's functionality that's important. Sure, if you can get functionality and pretty, that's fine, but if it's a choice of one or the other I'd prefer the one that does the job properly and doesn't cause more work for no reason.

Regardless of how much we might hope that everyone will read the rules, we'd be living in a total fantasy realm if we truly believed that it was going to happen. Lazy people, people who simply don't care about rules, new members who only want to post their thoughts on something and never visit again, utter internet n00bs who don't have much foruming experience, there are a lot of people who don't read rules, for whatever 'reason.'

Now, how many of these people that already fail to bother reading the rules would bother to try and find out what a particular icon meant next to a post title? At least with a text label clearly stating something that isn't allowed, people can actually immediately see the rule, even if they don't intend to abide by it.

And for the members, old and new, who do abide by the rules, regardless of whether they intend to stick around here or not, at least they have some clear indication before clicking into a thread of things they should or shouldn't do. An icon just confuses things, particularly since so many forums have a random set of icons for threads with no actual meaning, so people are more likely to simply ignore the icons anyway, thinking them meaningless.

Meh, anyway, typed more than I was intending there Either way, I see it as a pointless exercise.

[felix]

Originally Posted by NightWish

More misinformation or do you know something I don't? As far as I am aware adding icons to the list of possible thread/post images poses no technical problems.

I know it's only a matter of adding post icons in the post icon manager...
...oh never mind.

Originally Posted by The Small One

Well, who doesn't tag the thread right gets banned... simple as that. Who once got banned won't forget to tag correctly the next time.

I second this... in the end it's the idiot who created the thread at fault, people shouldn't be forced to start to analyze weather or not some random ambiguous topic is a manga or anime discussion.

It's either marked as [Manga Only], marked as [Anime Only] by the creator or it's DELETED by the Mods. No need to soft delete em' it's not like threads can't be created back, correctly. That would be safer, simpler and more convinient for everyone.

With all these rules and separation I don't know why the admins are so against making 2 forums, like it can get any worse. And at least then lil' manga readers like me could go into anime episode threads...

[LSD-25]

I second this... in the end it's the idiot who created the thread at fault, people shouldn't be forced to start to analyze weather or not some random ambiguous topic is a manga or anime discussion.

It's either marked as [Manga Only], marked as [Anime Only] by the creator or it's DELETED by the Mods. No need to soft delete em' it's not like threads can't be created back, correctly. That would be safer, simpler and more convinient for everyone.

Everyone is a newbie at some point, if you were treated this way over every simple mistake I doubt you'd be here today. Banning someone over every little infraction will cause all sorts of problems for the moderators here. Every time you take action on a user you'll end up hearing about it sooner or later. Bans just piss people off. It's better to explain the rules to them when they are broken.

Repeat offenders are excused of course, but even then I'd look into restricting their ability to post (a "time-out") instead of an out right ban.

As for the icon debate I'd rather see things left as they are.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by LSD-25

As for the icon debate I'd rather see things left as they are.

I'd agree, but I don't think people care about the post icons. I went away from these forums for about a year, and I come back to find that post icons that are red don't mean that a post is unread and "hot" but that it's just "hot" with no new topics. And for a few days, I thought that the forum was experiencing a glitch whereby read posts weren't being marked as read.

It's a random ramble from someone who didn't appreciate that change, but the point is that some forum changes have a greater bearing on things than others.

[felix]

Originally Posted by LSD-25

Everyone is a newbie at some point, if you were treated this way over every simple mistake I doubt you'd be here today. Banning someone over every little infraction will cause all sorts of problems for the moderators here. Every time you take action on a user you'll end up hearing about it sooner or later. Bans just piss people off. It's better to explain the rules to them when they are broken.

I never said anything about bans
I just said threads that don't meat the rules should get deleted on sight.

[The Small One]

Originally Posted by Radiosity

An icon just confuses things, particularly since so many forums have a random set of icons for threads with no actual meaning, so people are more likely to simply ignore the icons anyway, thinking them meaningless.

I think Icons are much clearer, than any textual representation, once they are established. Or don't they use special signs for road traffic in your country? And how many people you know, who still use DOS instead of Windows (or bash instead of X for the linuxers ).

And talking about work: It's much more work, to add a tag to the title, than it is to select an icon for the post.
The latter is just a short click (taking less than a second), while for the title you have to enter at least a few letters (spoiler-> 6, manga -> 5, anime -> 5) and the [] are quite hard to type on a few european keyboard layouts. So talking about:

Originally Posted by Radiosity

Sure, if you can get functionality and pretty, that's fine, but if it's a choice of one or the other I'd prefer the one that does the job properly and doesn't cause more work for no reason.

You should agree with me, because an Icon is much more functional and less work than a text-tag.

[felix]

Ahh but we are on a forum... the presumption is that if you bother to create a topic it's not a far stretch for you to bother to write 5 words or so.

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One thing about this spoiler thing, why the so specialy strict rules for the Naruto forum, I read threads for other series where a lil' spoiler pops up unmarked and I don't see what the problem is... it's not like people are gona die, and if they don't want to get seriously spoiled then they should look away after they see the first signs of one.
It's a little too much babysitting IMO...

[NightWish]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

I went away from these forums for about a year, and I come back to find that post icons that are red don't mean that a post is unread and "hot" ...

Oh balls. That is a different set of icons ... and what you are describing is a bug I thought I had fixed. I guess it slipped my mind and everyone just got used to the change... oops.

I need to send a set of fixed image to mb81 to upload (these icons can't be changed like the post icons being discussed in this thread can), it is where as it should be like the default (scroll to the bottom).

[Maxon]

Originally Posted by The Small One

I think Icons are much clearer, than any textual representation, once they are established.

That's the whole problem; they need to be established, whereas text doesn't.

It's less time spent for members looking at title trying to figure out what the thread contains when text is present. Even if icons get established, it will still take people a slight bit longer to figure out what icon is next to a thread. There should be no doubts when the title clearly shows what the thread contains.

[Radiosity]

Originally Posted by The Small One

Or don't they use special signs for road traffic in your country?

Not a good comparison there in the slightest. Road signs work precisely because people pay money to learn how to drive and therefore have to spend time and effort memorizing the road signs if they want any chance of passing. There are no such tests required for posting to a forum (though a certain level of intelligence test to use the internet might not be a bad idea heh.)

Originally Posted by The Small One

And talking about work: It's much more work, to add a tag to the title, than it is to select an icon for the post.

I was talking about work in respect to the mods that have to clean up after bad posts, not more work for the oh-so-poor little individual who can't be bothered to check forum rules or whatever.

Originally Posted by The Small One

You should agree with me, because an Icon is much more functional and less work than a text-tag.

The only reason I'd agree is if the icons were actually just images with text labels something like:

Originally Posted by Maxon

There should be no doubts when the title clearly shows what the thread contains.

Yups. I guess my idea of 'icons' with text labels rather than obscure pictures is probably the best way to go if this were to be implemented, since it takes the good points of both arguments and combines them, hopefully without the bad points

[The Small One]

Originally Posted by Maxon

That's the whole problem; they need to be established, whereas text doesn't.

Text does too.
What if someone doesn't know what the word "spoiler" means? When I started to use the internet (which is more than a decade ago) I didn't know what this word means. A lot of noobs probably don't know, because they never heard it before.
However everyone can understand images. Everyone will associate a red blinking light (for example) with something, that needs to be treated with special care.
Everyone could associate a book with manga.

Just take a look at the buttons on top of the answer-post-field. Is there written "image"? No you have a little Icon representing an image. Is there written "bold"? No, there is just an icon with a bold letter. And it works for everybody.

Originally Posted by Radiosity

The only reason I'd agree is if the icons were actually just images with text labels something like:

This would completly nullify the main advantage of images (beeing universably understandabl).


BTW: A title is a Title. It's just not meant for summaries and warnings about the content.

[Radiosity]

Originally Posted by The Small One

What if someone doesn't know what the word "spoiler" means?

I'm not really understanding your reasoning here. If a thread has [NO SPOILERS!] or [SPOILERS WILL BE BANNED] or whatever in the thread title, then even if you don't know what a spoiler is, surely you'd be interested in finding out why this magical word can lead to an insta-ban or infraction points or warnings or whatever.

Whereas, a blinking red light would likely be ignored as an annoying and random post icon with no meaning.

Originally Posted by The Small One

Just take a look at the buttons on top of the answer-post-field. Is there written "image"? No you have a little Icon representing an image. Is there written "bold"? No, there is just an icon with a bold letter. And it works for everybody.

This is something you'd find on basically any forum software anywhere you go, it's universal. We're talking about a specific forum that caters to a specific medium; Anime and Manga. Someone coming here from a gaming forum after they randomly caught an anime episode and found it interesting isn't likely to understand what these random images all mean next to various posts, because they're not universal. Text eliminates that.

Originally Posted by The Small One

BTW: A title is a Title. It's just not meant for summaries and warnings about the content.

And where is it written that titles can't be descriptive? There's no law stating that titles can't have spoiler warnings, or say [Manga Only] etc.. It's up to the AS staff how they want to run things.


End note: Something an increasing number of people in the world seem to be forgetting is that language and in particular text is there to make communication with each other both possible, and easier. Replacing easily understood and legible text labels with obscure icons completely defeats this simple idea.