AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > General Anime

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2007-03-02, 18:12   Link #21
SeijiSensei
AS Oji-kun
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mucking about
Age: 64
50 episodes X $25,000 = $1,000,000, so 2x or more means at least $2 million for I.G. Is this just on the DVD deal, or does it include the fees collected from [adult swim]? Either way it's a good deal for I.G. even if they never sell a DVD in Region 1.
__________________
SeijiSensei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-02, 19:44   Link #22
Ama no Kagaseo
Your local dark deity.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Amatsu Mikaboshi [August Star of Heaven.]
Send a message via MSN to Ama no Kagaseo Send a message via Yahoo to Ama no Kagaseo
So.. Forgive me for posting slightly ignorant on the subject first of all. I'm not the most educated in business practices - although I do want to enter college for a business degree. As we speak however.. Well, you get the idea. Feel free to ignore this post or bear with it.

Now I know this thread isn't to talk about the pricing of DVDs, so I'll try to keep that aspect to a minimum. What I'm really interested in is the result of Japanese companies adopting the practice of setting up their own branch company in the states so they can skip the step in selling their anime to a US company.

Well, this is assuming I read rooboy's post properly. Forgive me if I didn't.

Now, if more companies actually adopt their practice.. Firstly, could this possibly lead to a drop in the price of anime DVDs? Without the extra one million or two million lisencing fee, it seems like it would help. However.. In the bigger picture, that may not be much. So, yes, the question is is a drop in price possibly, or is it not that great of a difference?

Moving on.. If, indeed, Japanese companies adopt this practice, what will become of the companies stateside who rely on the ability to actually buy an anime? Will they simply crumble, or is there a chance that they would actually be brought out by Japanese companies to act as their branch?
Ama no Kagaseo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-02, 20:01   Link #23
Xellos-_^
Married
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ama no Kagaseo View Post
So.. Forgive me for posting slightly ignorant on the subject first of all. I'm not the most educated in business practices - although I do want to enter college for a business degree. As we speak however.. Well, you get the idea. Feel free to ignore this post or bear with it.

Now I know this thread isn't to talk about the pricing of DVDs, so I'll try to keep that aspect to a minimum. What I'm really interested in is the result of Japanese companies adopting the practice of setting up their own branch company in the states so they can skip the step in selling their anime to a US company.

Well, this is assuming I read rooboy's post properly. Forgive me if I didn't.

Now, if more companies actually adopt their practice.. Firstly, could this possibly lead to a drop in the price of anime DVDs? Without the extra one million or two million lisencing fee, it seems like it would help. However.. In the bigger picture, that may not be much. So, yes, the question is is a drop in price possibly, or is it not that great of a difference?
Bandai does it and i don't see the price being cheaper then ADV or Genon.

Quote:
Moving on.. If, indeed, Japanese companies adopt this practice, what will become of the companies stateside who rely on the ability to actually buy an anime? Will they simply crumble, or is there a chance that they would actually be brought out by Japanese companies to act as their branch?
Some companies wil survive like Right Stuff, who went form Licensing to distributing Anime. Others would get bought and disappear.

I really don't a big trend in Japanese companies setting shop in US to sell anime. The japanese companies would assume the entire risk of the setup and distributiion. If it doesn't work out they could lose a lot money. \
__________________
Xellos-_^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-02, 20:25   Link #24
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei
50 episodes X $20,000 = $1,000,000, so 2x or more means at least $2 million for I.G. Is this just on the DVD deal, or does it include the fees collected from [adult swim]? Either way it's a good deal for I.G. even if they never sell a DVD in Region 1.
Fixed it for you. Normally speaking, a license agreement extends to all rights for a certain region. Therefore, Production I.G. would pocket the license fee, and Sony Pictures will pick up all revenues for R1. Occassionally, some Japanese companies will also get royalties based on sales, but I don't believe that it's part of the standard agreement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ama no Kagaseo
Now, if more companies actually adopt their practice.. Firstly, could this possibly lead to a drop in the price of anime DVDs? Without the extra one million or two million lisencing fee, it seems like it would help. However.. In the bigger picture, that may not be much. So, yes, the question is is a drop in price possibly, or is it not that great of a difference?
No. Anime is a niche product in North America and Europe, therefore the price is less determined by what the costs to the distributor are than they are based on what the market will bear, and what price the distributor feels like they have to sell at to maximize their profit. As long as this remains the case, the price of anime DVDs will remain relatively unchanged. As a side note, the price of anime DVDs is actually much higher in Japan than in the rest of the world (Kanon is selling for ¥4725-¥5760 at amazon.jp).
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-02, 20:32   Link #25
Ama no Kagaseo
Your local dark deity.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Amatsu Mikaboshi [August Star of Heaven.]
Send a message via MSN to Ama no Kagaseo Send a message via Yahoo to Ama no Kagaseo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Bandai does it and i don't see the price being cheaper then ADV or Genon.



Some companies wil survive like Right Stuff, who went form Licensing to distributing Anime. Others would get bought and disappear.

I really don't a big trend in Japanese companies setting shop in US to sell anime. The japanese companies would assume the entire risk of the setup and distributiion. If it doesn't work out they could lose a lot money. \
True enough, on both occasions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
No. Anime is a niche product in North America and Europe, therefore the price is less determined by what the costs to the distributor are than they are based on what the market will bear, and what price the distributor feels like they have to sell at to maximize their profit. As long as this remains the case, the price of anime DVDs will remain relatively unchanged. As a side note, the price of anime DVDs is actually much higher in Japan than in the rest of the world (Kanon is selling for 4725-5760 at amazon.jp).
Wow, seriously? I didn't know it was that much. If my memory serves that's near 40 and 50 bucks, right?

Anyway. That kind of frustrates me in all honesty. I can't wait for a company to come along and drop the price a little bit. Slightly cheaper would sell more product, and in my mind would make more money in the end. But.. Well. Your average anime fan will buy anything right down to the crappy games..

So at that rate I don't see the price going anywhere now that I think about it.
Ama no Kagaseo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-02, 20:42   Link #26
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ama no Kagaseo
Wow, seriously? I didn't know it was that much. If my memory serves that's near 40 and 50 bucks, right?
That's about right. If you think that that's bad, a series like "Legend of Galactic Heroes" can set you back about $2000 U.S. (not counting shipping)!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ama no Kagaseo
Anyway. That kind of frustrates me in all honesty. I can't wait for a company to come along and drop the price a little bit. Slightly cheaper would sell more product, and in my mind would make more money in the end. But.. Well. Your average anime fan will buy anything right down to the crappy games..
The situation isn't going to change until anime becomes a mainstream product like American TV show box sets are. That doesn't look likely for the near future, and the problem is compounded by the fact that the DVD sales are often the only source of revenue for an anime licensor.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-02, 21:13   Link #27
Ama no Kagaseo
Your local dark deity.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Amatsu Mikaboshi [August Star of Heaven.]
Send a message via MSN to Ama no Kagaseo Send a message via Yahoo to Ama no Kagaseo
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
That's about right. If you think that that's bad, a series like "Legend of Galactic Heroes" can set you back about $2000 U.S. (not counting shipping)!


The situation isn't going to change until anime becomes a mainstream product like American TV show box sets are. That doesn't look likely for the near future, and the problem is compounded by the fact that the DVD sales are often the only source of revenue for an anime licensor.
e.e; I don't really see myself paying close to two hundred bucks for a single Fushigi Yuugi box set. So.. 2,000? Yeah, not going to happen.

I don't know. As far as mainstream goes it feels like the popularity of anime is actually starting to go down. The majority of US fans are teenagers, and they are fickle. e.e It's really kind of sad, it feels like anime never stays popular for long, and certainly will probably never go mainstream.

Although it came close. It was big in Hot Topic for a while, and that's damn close to mainstrea. xD
Ama no Kagaseo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-03, 01:47   Link #28
rooboy
Umeboshi!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tejas
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
50 episodes X $25,000 = $1,000,000, so 2x or more means at least $2 million for I.G. Is this just on the DVD deal, or does it include the fees collected from [adult swim]? Either way it's a good deal for I.G. even if they never sell a DVD in Region 1.
I.G. *probably* collects nothing from the [adult swim] airing. If they do then they got a very sweet deal. I would think 50,000 an episode would be sweet enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ama no Kagaseo View Post
What I'm really interested in is the result of Japanese companies adopting the practice of setting up their own branch company in the states so they can skip the step in selling their anime to a US company.
You read it correctly, but I don't know if it's a trend that will continue or not - I doubt anyone has much of an idea. Bandai's been around forever. Personally, I think the chances of more Japanese companies setting up subsidiaries in the US is slightly unlikely unless a couple of them show that it's wildly succesful. In that situation they absorb a lot more of the risk. It's much easier to simply charge a licensing fee and let the money roll in, regardless of how the show flops or succeeds in the U.S. Japanese businesses tend towards the conservative anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ama no Kagaseo View Post
Now, if more companies actually adopt their practice.. Firstly, could this possibly lead to a drop in the price of anime DVDs? Without the extra one million or two million lisencing fee, it seems like it would help. However.. In the bigger picture, that may not be much. So, yes, the question is is a drop in price possibly, or is it not that great of a difference?
There is almost no chance of this happening. The cost of almost any good has very little to do with the cost to manufacture/produce it. The cost is always based on demand - if they can sell many of them, they can charge less, if they can't, then they have to charge more. Most anime fans assume that the demand curve for anime slopes, but there is little evidence that this is true. Anime prices have actually been dropping for a while now, but there's no evidence that the companies are actually selling significantly more. Like most niche goods, there's really only a (relatively) small pool of buyers - regardless of how much you're charging. This same thing happens in lots and lots of industries. The U.S. comic industry has a similar problem, their demand is relatively flat, so they need to set their price high enough to make a profit off of that demand.
As an aside, this isn't the only reason why anime DVD's are more expensive. One of the reasons why U.S. TV shows are so cheap on DVD (and yes, they are now very cheap - I paid over a hundred dollars for each season of Babylon 5 a couple of years ago) is because the show is already paid for. Anything they make off DVD sales is basically profit. U.S. shows are primarily funded by the advertising when they're aired. Anime doesn't work like that, the primary income is made from selling DVDs, so the DVDs have to be more profitable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
No. Anime is a niche product in North America and Europe, therefore the price is less determined by what the costs to the distributor are than they are based on what the market will bear, and what price the distributor feels like they have to sell at to maximize their profit. As long as this remains the case, the price of anime DVDs will remain relatively unchanged. As a side note, the price of anime DVDs is actually much higher in Japan than in the rest of the world (Kanon is selling for 4725-5760 at amazon.jp).
Wow, great explanation (cookie for you). It's also important to remember that the price is unlikely to change until some company establishes a new, lower price point and becomes profitable. Manga used to cost more than it does now. Tokyopop established a market price at $10 that other companies basically had to match, and that's now where the level has been established at. If one of the really big anime licensors could establish a price point (say $20 or $25) for their entire line and turn a reasonable profit over time, that would probably be the only thing to force a change in the price of anime DVDs. That or a sudden explosion of anime popularity (something that is unlikely to happen). Even if there were a sudden explosion of anime popularity, price would be unlikely to move much. Price is notoriously inelastic (meaning, it doesn't move down much) in all markets.
And actually, you're undercutting the price of anime in Japan somewhat. Here the norm is $30 retail for 4 episodes (you actually spend between 15 and 25 most everywhere), in Japan it's $40 or $50 for usually only two episodes. For example, Shuffle! will probably be 6 DVDs in the US (6 DVDs x 4 episodes each = 24 episodes), but it was 12 in Japan.
__________________
rooboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-04, 21:25   Link #29
SeijiSensei
AS Oji-kun
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mucking about
Age: 64
After re-reading this thread, I'm still in the dark about the economics of anime.

What kind of money do producers collect from the television networks when the shows are first aired in Japan? My understanding of US television production is that the original network airing more or less covers the cost of production. The real money is made in "syndication," where older shows are re-aired on local television stations or cable networks. Then there's the enormous overseas market. For Hollywood television producers the money from syndication and foreign licensing fees is where the profits lie, though nowadays there's some additional money in the form of DVD sales.

Most of the discussions of anime economics I've read on AS suggest that Japanese producers rely on direct DVD sales for revenues as much as, or even more than, the fees they collect from the television networks. Is that true? If Japan looked like Hollywood, those DVD sales (in both R2 and R1) would be mostly profit since the production costs would have been covered by the broadcast deal. Are anime producers not able to wangle a sufficiently good price for their product from the networks? Why? Is there not enough advertising revenue (which seems to be rooboy's point) to allow the networks and producers to both cover their costs? I would have thought the cost per minute to produce anime would be considerably below the per-minute cost of live-action programming. In the absence of sufficient advertising revenues, how would any Japanese commercial television network thrive?
__________________
SeijiSensei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-04, 23:11   Link #30
rooboy
Umeboshi!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tejas
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
After re-reading this thread, I'm still in the dark about the economics of anime.
We all are. Only one US anime licensing company is publically owned (Funi) and only since they were purchased by Navarre, so they're the only open books. Everything else is anecdotal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
What kind of money do producers collect from the television networks when the shows are first aired in Japan? My understanding of US television production is that the original network airing more or less covers the cost of production. The real money is made in "syndication," where older shows are re-aired on local television stations or cable networks. Then there's the enormous overseas market. For Hollywood television producers the money from syndication and foreign licensing fees is where the profits lie, though nowadays there's some additional money in the form of DVD sales.
Mostly nothing. They actually pay for the show to run on TV. Both kj1980 and relentlessflame have made tons of posts on this in the past. For most late night anime, the anime company pays the television station for the broadcast time (similar to the way informercials work in the US). I'm not really sure if anyone's ever explained why this is true.

Ah, I think I've found the thread you're interested in. It's this one.

EDIT: I'll freely admit that I don't really understand the Japanese end of the market either. According to everything I've heard, they pay for the time slot when they air it. So, essentially, their revenue stream comes down entirely to DVD sales and licensing. Even at the cost of the DVDs I'm not sure how they make any money at it at all.
__________________
rooboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-04, 23:26   Link #31
CrowKenobi
Moderator
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: there... just there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
I really don't a big trend in Japanese companies setting shop in US to sell anime. The japanese companies would assume the entire risk of the setup and distributiion. If it doesn't work out they could lose a lot money.
Remember Toei and the Air Master fiasco?

If the company's executives are too stupid to properly release a good product, of course they're going to lose money. <I'm also looking at you Illumitoon!>
__________________



CrowKenobi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-05, 00:27   Link #32
Xellos-_^
Married
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by rooboy View Post
We all are. Only one US anime licensing company is publically owned (Funi) and only since they were purchased by Navarre, so they're the only open books. Everything else is anecdotal.Mostly nothing. They actually pay for the show to run on TV. Both kj1980 and relentlessflame have made tons of posts on this in the past. For most late night anime, the anime company pays the television station for the broadcast time (similar to the way informercials work in the US). I'm not really sure if anyone's ever explained why this is true.

Ah, I think I've found the thread you're interested in. It's this one.

EDIT: I'll freely admit that I don't really understand the Japanese end of the market either. According to everything I've heard, they pay for the time slot when they air it. So, essentially, their revenue stream comes down entirely to DVD sales and licensing. Even at the cost of the DVDs I'm not sure how they make any money at it at all.
So who gets the money form the commercials?
__________________
Xellos-_^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-05, 01:21   Link #33
rooboy
Umeboshi!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tejas
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
So who gets the money form the commercials?
Even in the US, it is the network that gets the money from the commercials. The way it works in the US, the people who produce the TV show negotiate the rate for their show with the network based on it's ratings (higher ratings = more money that the network can charge for commercials = theoretically more money to make the show).

However, the ratings have less to do with the money that goes into the show than most people assume. Since it's a bargaining process, both sides go into it with different talking points to negotiate the price they want. If the ratings are good or bad, one side or the other will mention it, but other factors ultimately also end up determining the price.

What SeijiSensei actually meant is that the price negotiated with the network forms the budget of the show (meaning it paid for itself). Anything after that is pure profit. This is somewhat obvious if you think about it - no show loses money and continues to air. Besides, part of the production cost is the salary of the CEO of the production company, etc, etc. So while it's nice to think that the profit on US shows comes from syndication, etc, it's pretty much a lie. The show probably turned a profit in its initial airing - the money was hidden as "capital" and "bonuses" and other expenses that aren't determined until afterwards.

From this point on we have speculation. With the facts I have at my disposal, I think this is likely to be the way it works (more or less), but again, I don't really understand the Japanese end of it. To be honest, the business on the Japanese side interests me less than the business on the U.S. side. On the Japanese side, I always think of it as art rather than a business. No one asks how Picasso managed to live while painting, it's the painting that's remembered. On the U.S. side, however, what happens is mostly business decisions (aside from dubbing decisions, and there would be little point in discussing those here anyway). Also, the business decisions come from a culture that I'm familiar with so I can draw parallels with how it works in other industries. Some of what happens in the anime industry I assume has to do with the difference between how Japanese and U.S. businesses operate.

In a lot of ways it's easier to think of most anime shows as infomercials for the DVD versions of the show (credit to relentlessflame for the first use of that analogy). While it's true that they have to pay for the air time, it's important to realize that this is late night air time that the network has to fill with something. Just like advertisers are not paying a premium for this time, neither are the anime studios - as a matter of fact, the reason it's usually aired late at night is because the air time is so cheap. The network has to put something out there, and whatever it is the advertising money will still be low. This is one of the reasons why informercials in the states air at these times. Some networks would lose money on those hours unless whatever is being aired then is helping to pay for itself. Some still do lose money, they're just using this to offset the loss.

I doubt either side of the equation (the network or the anime company) is really making lots of money from anime. Basically, the anime company is hoping for a hit, they keep treading water until they can get one (kind of a throw-it-against-the-wall-and-see-if-it-sticks approach). One big hit can pay for a lot of failures (this is the same way US movie studios work, incidentally). Well, and obviously the people who work there must love anime. The network has to have programming to fill it's programming hours, and also is picking up a trickle of revenue for the dead spots in it's programming time.

Of course, this entire chain of reasoning gets thrown out when you're talking about something like Doraemon or Naruto or whatever. My assumption is that prime-time anime works like any other TV show, but it's important to note those are a minority of anime (and an even smaller minority of the anime western fans are talking about when they use the word "anime").
__________________
rooboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-05, 22:34   Link #34
relentlessflame
 
*Administrator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 32
Just to add one more factor to what rooboy said, a key way you can understand "the game" is to trace the money. For the most part, animated works are commissioned pieces. The studios are in constant negotiation with publishers and other animation studios to find work to keep all their employees busy. As a studio moves up the reputation ranks, they eventually gain enough clout to become production coordinators for a show, which means they're now taking the lead, coordinating all the outsourcing, and pulling it all together. But even the coordinating company isn't typically footing the bill (although they may put in a share). So, if most studios are just doing commissioned work, who's paying for it all?

Probably the easiest way of explaining it would be... you know those cartoons/anime shows they have that are obviously designed primarily to sell merchandise? Like Pokemon with its Gameboy games and trading cards, or Beyblade and its tops (just random examples -- pick your own). Late night anime is exactly like that. The people paying for the production are typically publishing firms, music labels, and the like, and the shows are designed to sell DVDs, CDs, Novels, Manga, Magazines, Video Games, Figures, and more. They're taking a gamble that between all the merchandise sold (plus any licensing fees they may get selling the show to overseas distributors), they'll make their money back and more. In this way the risk of a flop doesn't weigh on the animation studios, but rather on the publishers and music labels, who have way more than enough weight to absorb the losses (so long as they're not constant and sustained, of course).

In a lot of ways, you can think of the late-night anime TV airing as a sort of loss leader, and the franchise itself as "the store". The TV airing is inconvenient to get at (many otaku have one or more PVRs), but it's still a bargain compared to the DVDs. The TV airing brings people "in the door" and gets them talking about it, but they're hoping you'll buy the "step-up" model (the DVDs), and buy other stuff while you're at it (all the other merchandise). It's a bit of a risky strategy, but that's why it's typically part of a large chain of "stores" (shows) funded by a given "owner" (publisher).

All in all, the model is completely different than American primetime TV and, as rooboy pointed out, that's because most anime is by no means "primetime" material.

(And, incidentally, any analogies and explanations I use certainly don't originate from me in the grand scheme of things. I doubt I was the first to call late-night TV airings of anime "commercials for the DVD". It's just a result of the things I've read and learned over the years, and is always subject to correction and further learning. )
relentlessflame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-06, 00:27   Link #35
rooboy
Umeboshi!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tejas
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Just to add one more factor to what rooboy said, a key way you can understand "the game" is to trace the money. For the most part, animated works are commissioned pieces. The studios are in constant negotiation with publishers and other animation studios to find work to keep all their employees busy.
A-HA! That explains the one piece I've never understood. In reality the anime production company is being paid to work on a particular series, they're not picking (well, they _are_ picking, but they're negotiating for a series they will be paid to produce). That's what I figured must be happening (the economic model is too wobbly otherwise), but I've never heard anyone actually say it.

Though now that I think about it, it's really obvious. Every fansub leaves in the "This program was brought to you by" sponsor bit in the beginning. Duh, I feel so retarded now.
__________________
rooboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-07, 01:30   Link #36
relentlessflame
 
*Administrator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by rooboy View Post
A-HA! That explains the one piece I've never understood. In reality the anime production company is being paid to work on a particular series, they're not picking (well, they _are_ picking, but they're negotiating for a series they will be paid to produce). That's what I figured must be happening (the economic model is too wobbly otherwise), but I've never heard anyone actually say it.

Though now that I think about it, it's really obvious. Every fansub leaves in the "This program was brought to you by" sponsor bit in the beginning. Duh, I feel so retarded now.
Well, don't feel bad at all. It sure took me long enough to figure the little bit I have figured out myself. But yeah, the "sponsored by" slides are a huge hint in that regard.

You could look at it from either angle, but it's really a matter of how "big" the company is. Some of the larger animation companies get into financing and production (the Toeis and Pierrots of the world), but they deal mostly in the absolute mainstream stuff that pulls in the primetime ratings. Some other studios are part of mega-conglomorates (studios like Sunrise), so they bankroll a lot of original concepts and bring them straight to market too. Well-known studios, like J.C. Staff, GONZO, and the like do mostly commissioned work, but sometimes come up with their own concepts too. But the bulk of the late night stuff is from "the little guys" who rose up through ranks over the years, and yeah -- they're the ones negotiating for contract work. This keeps scaling down to the even smaller shops, who are negotiating with the other studios for key, tween, and other work.

In other words (and this is actually incredibly obvious too, now that I think about it... duh...), the more money you have, the more risk you can absorb. The smaller guys need to be funded by larger groups, since they can't take the risk on their own -- this also means that they're less likely to get the "big hit" shows until they gain enough experience, clout, and funds. ...The fact that I had to write all the above paragraph just to come to such an obvious conclusion that I should have thought of in the first place makes me feel retarded. So don't feel bad!
relentlessflame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-07, 14:42   Link #37
Xellos-_^
Married
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Well, don't feel bad at all. It sure took me long enough to figure the little bit I have figured out myself. But yeah, the "sponsored by" slides are a huge hint in that regard.

You could look at it from either angle, but it's really a matter of how "big" the company is. Some of the larger animation companies get into financing and production (the Toeis and Pierrots of the world), but they deal mostly in the absolute mainstream stuff that pulls in the primetime ratings. Some other studios are part of mega-conglomorates (studios like Sunrise), so they bankroll a lot of original concepts and bring them straight to market too. Well-known studios, like J.C. Staff, GONZO, and the like do mostly commissioned work, but sometimes come up with their own concepts too. But the bulk of the late night stuff is from "the little guys" who rose up through ranks over the years, and yeah -- they're the ones negotiating for contract work. This keeps scaling down to the even smaller shops, who are negotiating with the other studios for key, tween, and other work.

In other words (and this is actually incredibly obvious too, now that I think about it... duh...), the more money you have, the more risk you can absorb. The smaller guys need to be funded by larger groups, since they can't take the risk on their own -- this also means that they're less likely to get the "big hit" shows until they gain enough experience, clout, and funds. ...The fact that I had to write all the above paragraph just to come to such an obvious conclusion that I should have thought of in the first place makes me feel retarded. So don't feel bad!
Under this sytem how would something like Eva, Excel Saga and Utena get funded in the frist place These series are not exactly made for merchandising. Except Gainax, who has been exploiting Rei and Asuka like a pimp.
__________________
Xellos-_^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-07, 15:27   Link #38
rooboy
Umeboshi!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tejas
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Under this sytem how would something like Eva, Excel Saga and Utena get funded in the frist place These series are not exactly made for merchandising. Except Gainax, who has been exploiting Rei and Asuka like a pimp.
Merchandising doesn't just mean figurines and wall scrolls, it can also mean soundtracks, tanks, etc, etc. I find lots of merchandise for both Excel Saga and Evangelion (there might be lots for Utena too, for all I know). Excel Saga is also based off of a reasonably popular manga. In any case, I believe the substance of your question is, "How do original stories (with no manga, etc tie-ins) get funded then?"
I believe the answer is easy enough. Generally speaking they're created in the hopes of creating a marketing phenomenon that the studios can then claim the revenues from. Also it's important to divorce the design of the series itself (the artistic elements, like the animation and the writing, etc) from the business design. It's not relevant if we think a series would do well at merchandising (a more contemporary, and I believe better, example of what you're trying to illustrate would be Noein), all series have an equal chance at doing well in merchandise. The more important part of the equation is not the design of the characters but the success of the anime.
For example, Noein is not really a series that seems like it should do well merchandising-wise. It's not tied into a manga or anything, but, on the other hand, it has a nice soundtrack and if it had become the next "big thing" there would have been merchandise for it all over the place (similar to FLCL). Really what the bigger company is banking on is not that the studio will design a series to sell merchandise but that the anime company will design a series that is succesful enough to generate merchandise sales. Because if it's succesful, there will be merchandise and people will buy it.
Is there more risk involved in this approach? Definitely. But if someone does come up with the next Evangelion, that's going to be an incredible revenue stream for that company. Merchandise for Evangelion still sells (every month my Previews catalogue shows more of it - and that's in America), and it was produced more than ten years ago. Heck, there were figures for Excel Saga (and wall scrolls) a couple of months ago, and that was also produced ten years ago (though the manga is still being released in the US).
__________________
rooboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-07, 15:34   Link #39
Sazelyt
F i n
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
I have always considered the production costs to be pretty expensive. But, if a typical series cost around 2.5 million $ to produce, then considering the amount the company can earn from the licensing and distribution rights (in many different countries and languages - although the amount should change from country to country, I believe), in addition to the TV deals in Japan, and later on DVD and other related commercial products, it seems to be a really good business choice.

If anyone is interested in more detailed information on the anime business in Japan, you can check this article (the first article that shows up in google search results on that issue). Although it analyzes till the year 2004, it still includes quite useful information.
Sazelyt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-23, 18:47   Link #40
bayoab
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geneon rep
We finished the deal we had. The OVA wasn't part of it. Personally I wish we could, but we've already lost enough money. I can't be too specific, but our break-even for the title was 10,000-15,000 units or more. The best selling one was the first volume and it is less than 5,000. The recent volumes have been about 1,000. We had to fight just to get to the end.
Above quote is regarding Hajime no Ippo.
bayoab is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
industry

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:56.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.