AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Clannad

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-06-14, 13:29   Link #481
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by rg4619 View Post
If the raw translation is any indication, tons of work will be required before anything is ready for release.

That's the trouble with large community translations. You have all sorts of contributors with different writing styles and language proficiencies (Japanese, English - as of now, some of the text consists of decent English prose, while other parts are borderline unreadable). This makes editing difficult because to maintain a consistent voice and a high level of accuracy/quality, editors must go over the entire script, almost as if they're translating the whole game on their own.
I'm starting to get the idea that I should just go over the entire damned script and edit it for readability.

Sure, I know no Japanese whatsoever, but I DO know English.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-14, 13:32   Link #482
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by rg4619 View Post
He's saying that the final product will likely be of questionable quality since it's a fan translation (so you'd best keep expectations low). Every post reiterates that single point, actually.
I see, thank you.

In that case, Littm, let me counter that. Those who work on fan translation projects often have a lot of hands-on experience with the Japanese language, and while no translation is perfect, it is not uncommon for fan translations to be more fluent, and more accurate, then official ones. I don't see how it is wrong for fan translators to aim for perfection, nor do I see a reason to discourage them from trying to achieve that goal.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-15, 00:23   Link #483
Zenemis
Megabuddy
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Perth, Australia.
Age: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I'm starting to get the idea that I should just go over the entire damned script and edit it for readability.

Sure, I know no Japanese whatsoever, but I DO know English.
Then do it, as long as you can preserve the original meaning

Just save the line you replace as // Orig TL: "xxxxxx" underneath.
__________________
Zenemis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-15, 03:02   Link #484
velvet
"with you, happiness"
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I'm starting to get the idea that I should just go over the entire damned script and edit it for readability.

Sure, I know no Japanese whatsoever, but I DO know English.
I felt the same way. Just give us a fixed style we should follow, and we can at least turn them into something readable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenemis View Post
Then do it, as long as you can preserve the original meaning

Just save the line you replace as // Orig TL: "xxxxxx" underneath.
So it should be okay for non-Japanese reader to help with proof-reading?
__________________

velvet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-15, 05:18   Link #485
tripperazn
Toyosaki Aki
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by velvet View Post
So it should be okay for non-Japanese reader to help with proof-reading?
At this point, I really wouldn't recommend this. Proper editing is more like translating a second time than anything else. IMHO, "readability/eloquence" is one of the least important aspects of a fan translation VN, it's about consistency, speed, and accuracy. There is just too much text to have every line read like it was written by Dickens.

1. You have no idea whether or not you're accurately rewriting the sentence with all details/nuances/implications intact. That means that someone else, who could be fixing the Japanese translation errors using this time, must go over the portion that you edit. This means checks upon checks, potentially cycling infinitely if organized poorly (and with fan translations it's impossible to organize well with this many people on staff). If the error isn't checked, the reader then gets a beautifully written mistake instead of a barely coherent, but correct translation.

2. There are so many errors in the raw translation that it's really not worth your time. Much of what you do may end up being wrong, or rewritten again due to some minor detail. I pretty much rewrote Kyou's rain scene about 2 months ago due to translation errors on every other line, thus completely ruining edits to that section.

If you really want to help out, start editing at the SEEN files not marked for clean up since these problems are less likely to pop up.
__________________

Last edited by tripperazn; 2008-06-15 at 05:34.
tripperazn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-15, 07:19   Link #486
dgreater1
Misuzu & Kotomi Protector
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philippines
Age: 32
Tripperazn said it right. Unless there's someone who will TransCheck the SEEN files non-stop, and really knowledgeable about Japanese=>English, it's better to wait before editing. But I'm not saying you should be discourage at editing the SEENs, you can always voice your opinion if you think the line is mistranslated. A Translator will probably look at it and correct it. You can also put alternate TL as long as the context is still intact (need to maintain almost all the time). It's better that way because a translator will think "Oh, this Alt TL is closer to the real meaning so this will do."

Anyway, the SEENs that have been heavily edited and checked are Kotomi's Scenario (SEEN4???) and the Baseball Scenario (SEEN0???). You can start at those SEEN if you want.
__________________
~ Time is a luxury which you do not have ~
Parvati IV/Sanjiyan of 3x3 Eyes
CLANNAD Translation Project
DGreater1's Blog: A World made by a simple thought
dgreater1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-15, 14:14   Link #487
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
At this point, I really wouldn't recommend this. Proper editing is more like translating a second time than anything else. IMHO, "readability/eloquence" is one of the least important aspects of a fan translation VN, it's about consistency, speed, and accuracy. There is just too much text to have every line read like it was written by Dickens.
I highly disagree with you there. Readability is just as important as accuracy. If possible, this project should have both.

I have noticed numerous spelling and grammar errors when playing the game... it's not like fixing those is going to bork up your translation, is it?

How it reads doesn't really matter... fixing spelling/grammar errors and simple word order without changing the meaning is.

And, from what you're saying, I'm guessing we won't see the patch for another few years...?
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-15, 14:27   Link #488
dgreater1
Misuzu & Kotomi Protector
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philippines
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I highly disagree with you there. Readability is just as important as accuracy. If possible, this project should have both.

I have noticed numerous spelling and grammar errors when playing the game... it's not like fixing those is going to bork up your translation, is it?

How it reads doesn't really matter... fixing spelling/grammar errors and simple word order without changing the meaning is.

And, from what you're saying, I'm guessing we won't see the patch for another few years...?
I don't think that's what he meant... what he meant was, despite the line flows perfectly (looks all right if you read), the meaning might be completely wrong (comparing to the Japanese line).

I noticed that as well. I sometimes see Alt. TL of the original line but ending up rewriting the whole line because it has a completely different meaning.

Anyway, that's why the project needs more good TransChecker so that editors won't think that their edits are wasted.
__________________
~ Time is a luxury which you do not have ~
Parvati IV/Sanjiyan of 3x3 Eyes
CLANNAD Translation Project
DGreater1's Blog: A World made by a simple thought
dgreater1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-15, 22:13   Link #489
OceanBlue
Not an expert on things
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
If you really want to help out, start editing at the SEEN files not marked for clean up since these problems are less likely to pop up.
If anyone cares, the SEEN files not marked for clean-up are:

0001
0444
0555
2422
2510 [Under the category: Clannad:Translating]
3422
3501 [Under the category: Clannad:Translating]
6419
6802 and 6803 aren't under the category ClannadCleanup, but they're under Files to be TL Checked in the ClannadCleanup page. They're under the category: Clannad:Translating.

As for my opinion, it doesn't matter how close the line is to the Japanese line if the reader can't understand what the text is trying to say, which is probably the case for a lot of lines right now. Readability is important. Accuracy is, of course, important as well; that can go without saying.
OceanBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-16, 01:25   Link #490
Littm
ちょうど楽しみなさい
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Somewhere...
Age: 26
About readability and meaning. For me, translation with the most exact meaning that close to the original text is more imporatant then overall readability and "meaning-translation".
Littm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-16, 07:12   Link #491
Proto
Knowledge is the solution
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: U. of Pittsburgh, Previously in Mexico City.
Age: 30
Well it's a matter of tastes actually. Just as for me it is more important for the reader to actually get the original meaning and overall feeling in a smooth way to read rather than somehow managing to pull a word for word translation that actually makes sense.

But anyway, that's not really what matters, but what was agreed on the translation guidelines.
Proto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-17, 02:34   Link #492
OceanBlue
Not an expert on things
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
I can't really find anything about that in the guidelines though.

So I guess editors should stick with fixing spelling and grammar mistakes at this point and leave the, "This line doesn't make sense," or, "This line could be better phrased," complaints for later?
OceanBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-17, 04:58   Link #493
Zenemis
Megabuddy
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Perth, Australia.
Age: 6
I'm sure you can rephrase it as long as you're very careful about not losing any meaning in the sentence.

There's bound to be alot of tense errors and such in the original translation.

There's no review info before SEEN0417 though, what's happening with the 3 SEENs before that?

I'm going through your edits now Ocean, I'm pretty busy at the moment though :X (exams)
__________________
Zenemis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-17, 05:03   Link #494
dgreater1
Misuzu & Kotomi Protector
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philippines
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
I can't really find anything about that in the guidelines though.

So I guess editors should stick with fixing spelling and grammar mistakes at this point and leave the, "This line doesn't make sense," or, "This line could be better phrased," complaints for later?
Like I said, don't hesitate to voice your opinion. If the editor thinks the line can be phrased better, the he should say so. If editors think there's something wrong with the line, then there really must be something wrong with it and a translator/transchecker should check it, but if the line is right, it should be explained as to what that line is trying to imply.
__________________
~ Time is a luxury which you do not have ~
Parvati IV/Sanjiyan of 3x3 Eyes
CLANNAD Translation Project
DGreater1's Blog: A World made by a simple thought
dgreater1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-17, 13:27   Link #495
OceanBlue
Not an expert on things
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
If a translator has to explain what the line's implying, then the translator/editor will have to change around the sentence anyways [Unless it's foreshadowing or something.], since readers won't have that luxury while playing.

I think I've checked 0414 already. I'll check 0414-0416.

Edit: 0414 has a lot of people on the "Translation" part..... I don't think I'm going to change much without confirmation first.

Edit: By much, I mean less than normally.

Last edited by OceanBlue; 2008-06-17 at 14:01.
OceanBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-28, 21:00   Link #496
drmr
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Anyone have a ball-park figure on how long this project will take to complete? example: 6, 12, 18 months?

Actually it isn't that important since I've already used an unofficial translation, actually felt bad doing that! but heck I'm only human with weak morals after all and I'm sure I'd be forgiven by the team translating this since the official patch is what I along with everyone else has been waiting for with great anticipation (btw thanks velocity7 & everyone on the team!).
drmr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-29, 19:03   Link #497
OceanBlue
Not an expert on things
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Out of the last 500 changes in the last 7 days, 8 of them are Clannad SEENs [Not including the edits to the talk page.]. Out of those, 5 of them are edits with a character difference of less than 10. Most of them were just fixing comments/formatting [Such as fixing a line number, adding '//' to a comment, etc.].

You try to figure out how long it'll take.
OceanBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-30, 04:24   Link #498
Zenemis
Megabuddy
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Perth, Australia.
Age: 6
Or will Rewrite come out first :O
__________________
Zenemis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-30, 12:59   Link #499
drmr
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
Out of the last 500 changes in the last 7 days, 8 of them are Clannad SEENs [Not including the edits to the talk page.]. Out of those, 5 of them are edits with a character difference of less than 10. Most of them were just fixing comments/formatting [Such as fixing a line number, adding '//' to a comment, etc.].

You try to figure out how long it'll take.
Well sorry for asking , my question was aimed towards the more experience people which I thought could possibly speculate a rough time frame, but after reading your reply (which btw confused the shit out of me ) I guess even a simple ball-park figure is impossible.
drmr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-30, 16:24   Link #500
OceanBlue
Not an expert on things
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
You don't need to apologize for asking.
In my opinion, unless there's suddenly a rapid change in editing/translation checking, we'll have around 0-2 SEENs edited per week if the rate stays at normal. There are almost 200 SEENs.

Because of fluctuating amounts of work done, we can't give a guess as to a time frame. Sometimes, there's a lot of work done [Such as in the beginning.], and sometimes there isn't.

I'm not experienced, but at the current rate, I'd say that the project will extend into 2009.
OceanBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
bishoujo, game patch, key, pc game, translation

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.