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Old 2007-02-09, 11:40   Link #101
Kotengu
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Why is everyone bashing Kakuzu? Naruto HAS improved. But he's not gonna be completly different. His best skill is being unpredictable, but part of that is instictivley knowing someone else's intent. Once he has that down your done. So far most of the fights have been cheezy cuz it comes out like a battle of fealings, but it's still a battle and naruto knows. So now in addition to Naruto being able to figure you out he's got crazy high end jutsu (Rasengan, Rasenshiruken, Summoning, Kagebushin) They all take a large amount of chakra to do and are extremly powerful and Advanced jutsu. It's like naruto can't learn crappy jutsu. AND he analyzes people's attack patterns activley now. He knew how Kakuzu was underestimating him and took FUll advantage.

1. When kakuzu was taking out the other nin he wasn't scared to get hit by them cuz he was practically immortal. So he set up his body for close and mid range combat, which he was superior at cuz he had tenticles, super element jutsu and a multiple heart shield. Pluss if he hit them they were pretty much dead.

2. When he fought naruto he no longer had the tenticle advantage at close range cuz naruto was quick enough to catch him with a few bushins, Also he no longer had the power advantage cuz naruto's jutsu was stronger, pluss he didn't have the complete heart advantage cuz he would be attacking mostly bushins, so no one hit kills for kazu.

3. So what he did was switch to LONG RANGE MODE. This way he could attack naruto with out fear of being hit by the jutsu. He figured that naruto would use a NORMAL strategy and fight with the least amount of risk to himself, and was wrong. He's probably not as fast in long range mode cuz most of his power is devoted to extra long tenticles as he doesn't really have projectiles or a means to get a 100% hit rate with his jutsu like naruto does with his bushin pot shot method. So all naruto did was make Kakuzu attack (just like last time) and hit him afterwards. With that level of jutsu it only takes once so the chakra consumption wasn't an issue.

What we witnessed in this chaper is what Jirya has been gearing naruto for since they met. HIGH POWER jutsu battle. not small time stuff like shikamaru, or ninjutsu supported taijutsu like kakashi and sasuke. Just raw unadultered high power jutsu in your face.
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Old 2007-02-09, 12:32   Link #102
astayanax
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2. When he fought naruto he no longer had the tenticle advantage at close range cuz naruto was quick enough to catch him with a few bushins, Also he no longer had the power advantage cuz naruto's jutsu was stronger, pluss he didn't have the complete heart advantage cuz he would be attacking mostly bushins, so no one hit kills for kazu.
Actually Kakuzu combined jutsus were stronger than Naruto's own (at 50%). It took the assistance of Yamato to cancel the affect which didn't matter anymore since Naruto told the others to stand back which is where the problem lies. There was simply no reason for Kakuzu to stop using his wide range destructive jutsus which he knew was effective.

Being that it was 1 vs many, it was to his advantage to execute attacks that would cause hinderance to all of his foes, at least to the effect of buying him enough time to find an opening... but he didn't; which in turn made him look retarded. Another argument is that he was holding back in case more people come but to counter that, why would it matter? He could simply had retreated at that point since his focus was on Naruto too, the reason why they are in Fire Country in the first place.

There is nothing innovative about it; but sheer cheesiness. It very much reminds me of the time when Kabuto just stood there and took the Rasengen hit when he could had killed Naruto in dozens of way before Naruto even bring the Rasengen half the distance required.
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Old 2007-02-09, 12:52   Link #103
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by astayanax View Post
Actually Kakuzu combined jutsus were stronger than Naruto's own (at 50%).
Let me claim as you claim: Actually Naruto's 50% jutsu was stronger than Kakuzu's all four offensive hearts combined. Proof, none, what about you?

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There was simply no reason for Kakuzu to stop using his wide range destructive jutsus which he knew was effective.
You are quite wrong in this one. After observing Naruto's jutsu, it became pretty clear to him that, if he uses the tentacles, it would be sufficient to stop the effect of Naruto's jutsu. It is like suggesting, why Oro didn't summon 6 gates instead of 3 to completely avoid the impact of 4-tail's attack, if that attack would have completely destroyed Oro by easily going through the 3 gates. Notice, how it can easily change from overestimate to underestimate...

Or, you can use another argument that didn't receive serious consideration. Why Kakashi didn't use MS at the beginning just after both Kakuzu and Hidan were captured and everything is ready for a simple MS attack?...

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There is nothing innovative about it; but sheer cheesiness. It very much reminds me of the time when Kabuto just stood there and took the Rasengen hit when he could had killed Naruto in dozens of way before Naruto even bring the Rasengen half the distance required.
Well, you cannot blame a character for his overconfidence and sudden idiocy. It happens to everyone, even Oro failed to that against Sandaime, when he was captured easily by Sandaime.
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Old 2007-02-09, 13:45   Link #104
Rurik
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
For instance, Jiraiya *the person who was once considered to become the Hokage* falling for a simple trick, Asuma and Kurenai acting like they know nothing about Itachi, and giving a lot of openings, are just a few simple examples.
The simple trick was basically the weakness of Jiraya as stated, that has nothing to do with Jiraiya been dumb or smart or getting dumber, rather than Jiraiya weakness is women, and That weakness was exploited. Not to mention, Jiraiya and Itachi never fought, So neither of them won nor Loose.

Assuma and Kuranai didnít though Itachi was that powerful, thatís all, they dint know about Itachi powers, thatís not getting dumber or Stupid.

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Sakura acting like she is in a dream world, Yamato one minute acting like a low level opponent and easily falling for a simple attack, another minute telling us he will stop with plays and get serious, etc.
Yamato never really got serious, he didnít fall for a simple attack, it is your opinion it was a simple attack, they just were overwhelmed by Sasukes Powers in that moment, they didnít get dumb, at the point were Yamato did decided to get serious, The Kyuby Trick has ended and Sasuke was planning on dong his Jutsu.

Remember they were down there to Reason with Sasuke, not to fight with him.

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If emotions are a reason for such carelessness, then Kakuzu's case can be considered as one too, but in that case, it is more like overconfidence, and I don't see anything wrong with that.
Kaukuzu was stupidity plain and simply, Why A Shinoby who has a vast experience, and Vast attack, including Long Range ones, would suddenly decide, not only to Join all his heart as close as possible, but to Fight Close Combat with his opponent that clearly has shown that can only fight in that Way and has a Close Combat Jutsu that already you are weary that its Highly dangerous, thatís not overconfidence, that just dumbness. If it were Over confidence he wouldnít had used a more stronger form to begin with.

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Didn't another great Akatsuki *Sasori*, despite his considerable amount of experience and the presumption of having no emotions left within himself, actually lose to his emotions? Only at that time, it happened a little bit late.
You know my stance on that matter, I know yours, bringing Sasori here will do you no good, As I said about this, Sasori just put himself on the mercy to be killed, that not neither Dumbness nor Overconfidence, thatís just a death wish.

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Or maybe, just like we have considered it for Sasuke's and Itachi's cases, we have to accept that Naruto has really outwitted his opponent and give him the sufficient credit rather than try to take credit from him by proposing excuses for Kakuzu..
In the case of Itachi and Sasuke their opponents acted accordingly to what they are: how their personality is and what this people knew about them, in the case of Kakuuzu, He stopped been a Shinoby more experienced than Kakashi, and become a Shinoby as experience as Konohamaru.

Naruto didnít outwitted his opponent, rather, his opponent did that to himself. Naruto was supposed to be different; yet, he made the exact Tick he made on Neeji and Kiba. Nothing new About Naruto there.
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Old 2007-02-09, 14:45   Link #105
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
The simple trick was basically the weakness of Jiraya as stated, that has nothing to do with Jiraiya been dumb or smart or getting dumber, rather than Jiraiya weakness is women, and That weakness was exploited. Not to mention, Jiraiya and Itachi never fought, So neither of them won nor Loose.

Assuma and Kuranai didn’t though Itachi was that powerful, that’s all, they dint know about Itachi powers, that’s not getting dumber or Stupid.
The truth is they are, especially if the situation with Kakuzu is assumed that way. Someone like Jiraiya shouldn't fall for such tricks, and high level jounins like Asuma and Kurenai should know better than acting rashly and stupidly against powerful opponents. At that time, it looked like they have basically jumped willingfully to their deaths, I mean, if you won't consider that stupidity what would you consider?

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Yamato never really got serious, he didn’t fall for a simple attack, it is your opinion it was a simple attack, they just were overwhelmed by Sasukes Powers in that moment, they didn’t get dumb, at the point were Yamato did decided to get serious, The Kyuby Trick has ended and Sasuke was planning on dong his Jutsu.
Isn't it the case that a ninja has to be ready for such surprises, especially when he is in an enemy field? Maybe you cna propose counterarguments for Sai and Sakura that they are inexperienced and not ready, but, what about Yamato? Was he planning to get serious after he was killed, so easily?

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Kaukuzu was stupidity plain and simply, Why A Shinoby who has a vast experience, and Vast attack, including Long Range ones, would suddenly decide, not only to Join all his heart as close as possible, but to Fight Close Combat with his opponent that clearly has shown that can only fight in that Way and has a Close Combat Jutsu that already you are weary that its Highly dangerous, that’s not overconfidence, that just dumbness. If it were Over confidence he wouldn’t had used a more stronger form to begin with.
Maybe, what you assume as that attack being the worse choice at that time is wrong.

Naruto planned to finish it with his jutsu, and showed in his first failed-attack that it is very easy to defend against that attack as long as it is stopped before the impact.

When there are that many opponents he might have to deal after he had done with Naruto, do you really consider Kakuzu as acting intelligent, if he had wasted his whole energy and chakra on an opponent that he assumed to be stopped easily with the way he chose? If he had actually finished his chakra by trying to fight only Naruto and be killed by the others there, would that make a good case of him being intelligent?

To me, he was mostly right in his tactic, but he made an incorrect assumption by wrongfully guessing the location of the real opponent.

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You know my stance on that matter, I know yours, bringing Sasori here will do you no good, As I said about this, Sasori just put himself on the mercy to be killed, that not neither Dumbness nor Overconfidence, that’s just a death wish.
We both know each other's stance, but, as long as the suspicion on the end of the fight stays the way it is right now, it will always make a good supportive-argument for me. And, the way I see it, it was a mistake on his side. And, Kakuzu's is another.

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In the case of Itachi and Sasuke their opponents acted accordingly to what they are: how their personality is and what this people knew about them, in the case of Kakuuzu, He stopped been a Shinoby more experienced than Kakashi, and become a Shinoby as experience as Konohamaru.
You know we have seen lots of cases that show us even the experienced fighters are open to mistakes, I don't see why you do not want to see it that way with Kakuzu. And, examples for such cases, the one given above for Sasori, Kakashi getting easily captured in water by an opponent coming from a country that rely solely on water jutsus, Sandaime getting easily captured by Orochimaru, Sandaime one of the most experienced fighter falling victim to his emotions, Asuma and Kurenai acting like Konohamaru against Itachi by ignoring his strength, Jiraiya falling for a classic trick, Itachi putting himself in a situation of getting maybe killed by wasting his chakra to show his superiority, Orochimaru waiting like a sitting duck for Sandaime using a deadly jutsu on him, Deidera flying high above the sky comfortably assuming no one can reach him and barely surviving the attack against him, Tsunade overflowing with overconfidence finding herself in a highly risky situation against a mere Kabuto,...

These kinds of things happen. If you cannot accept that it will be hard later on, when those other Akatsuki people get beaten one after the other through fights colored with interesting mistakes.

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Naruto didn’t outwitted his opponent, rather, his opponent did that to himself. Naruto was supposed to be different; yet, he made the exact Tick he made on Neeji and Kiba. Nothing new About Naruto there.
That is what I was referring above. When Naruto achieves something, it is opponent's stupidity, when Sasuke achieves the same thing, it is his greatness. Creating openings through surprises is a great asset of Naruto, and maybe one of his greatest. And honestly, trying to lower the importance of that, I don't really like it.
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Old 2007-02-09, 15:13   Link #106
chuckcsf
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
That is what I was referring above. When Naruto achieves something, it is opponent's stupidity, when Sasuke achieves the same thing, it is his greatness. Creating openings through surprises is a great asset of Naruto, and maybe one of his greatest. And honestly, trying to lower the importance of that, I don't really like it.
Very true! I don't know what it is but some people ignore the facts just because they don't like what they see. If the Manga says he changed that means he changed. Although I don't really like the way they portrayed it but this is a fact in the manga and we shouldn't ignore that. When they made it clear that Kakuzu is a very strong and experienced enemy, then he is. No matter how dumb he looked in the chapters that followed, we just need to follow what the author has given us. Yes, that was a great strategy by Naruto if not more, just as impressive as Shika's in my opinion.
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Old 2007-02-09, 15:16   Link #107
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rasengan is still incomplete there are 8 stages or somthing but regardless its incomplete still
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Old 2007-02-09, 15:34   Link #108
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I thought it was interesting that Kakashi said that his Sharingan wasn't able to follow it, which suggests that the Sharingan does indeed have trouble following at least more complex jutsus. So this was in my opinion also attempting to show weaknesses in Sharingan since Naruto will have to fight Sasuke at some point. I also believe it suggested that the Sharingan doesn't see movements perfectly, but more then likely at a near perfect state. Of course this is based on theory.
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Old 2007-02-09, 15:40   Link #109
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rasengan is still incomplete there are 8 stages or somthing but regardless its incomplete still
hell no! im already tired of seeing naruto destroying the entire place with bad guy then mokuton sensei coming towards him saying "were only halfway done! dont forget to watch next 150 eposides to see how far rasengan goes!"
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Old 2007-02-09, 15:57   Link #110
astayanax
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When there are that many opponents he might have to deal after he had done with Naruto, do you really consider Kakuzu as acting intelligent, if he had wasted his whole energy and chakra on an opponent that he assumed to be stopped easily with the way he chose? If he had actually finished his chakra by trying to fight only Naruto and be killed by the others there, would that make a good case of him being intelligent?
That is the thing; you are not considering Kakuzu's strength which is ultilizing jutsus that can take out an entire area. It isn't so much as him burning his whole chakra to defeat Naruto, but burning his whole chakra to defeat Naruto, Kakashi and co., Yamato and co., and any other forces that could be on their way near the scene. We know Kakuzu is capable of this because he was on the verge of killing everyone when Naruto and Yamato combined their jutsus to make the save.

Irregardless of what he heard Naruto told the others, he would be naive to believe that they will not interfere if things went into his favour and not Naruto's. Thus, it should be obvious to him to make an effort (even if he fails) of using the enemy's strength against them and quite simply, this was forcing Naruto on the defensive by making him protect the other combantants from being killed.

This has nothing to do with Naruto himself. If it was Sasuke, Itachi, the 4th etc that did this to Kakuzu, I still would had called Kakuzu retarded as hell. Why can't Kishimoto simply make Naruto defeat Kakuzu in a much more believable way? That is what I am questioning.

(NB/ I know you replied to my stuff earlier on Sazelyt, but it is best to say that we have some big differences of opinions.)
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Old 2007-02-09, 16:00   Link #111
Rurik
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
The truth is they are, especially if the situation with Kakuzu is assumed that way. Someone like Jiraiya shouldn't fall for such tricks,
Jiraiya was not in fighting mode, He was just deceived by someone that knew his weakness, if you were saying to me that this was done in the middle of a bloody confrontment and that Itachi made a Henge making Jiraiya suddenly fell for this one; then Yes, that is stupidity. Jiraiya was tricked because His weakness was exploited in a moment where he wasn’t in a life or death situation.

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and high level jounins like Asuma and Kurenai should know better than acting rashly and stupidly against powerful opponents. At that time, it looked like they have basically jumped willingfully to their deaths, I mean, if you won't consider that stupidity what would you consider?
Did This High level Jounnins knew they were facing Powerful opponents at that time? No they didn’t, even After Itachi made his display of power, Assuma and Kurenai still didn’t see Itahci as a shinoby to be feared as if where Orochimaru. They didn’t acted stupid, they Just though they could dealt with them, and they were just wrong about it.

And We can call that Overconfident if you want, and then you will call Kakuzu been also overconfident in that moment, but there is a difference, even if Assuma and Kurenai wouldn’t had been overconfident, The results against Itachi would had been the same, Kakuuzu, Did Had choices and the result could had been different.

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Isn't it the case that a ninja has to be ready for such surprises, especially when he is in an enemy field? Maybe you cna propose counterarguments for Sai and Sakura that they are inexperienced and not ready, but, what about Yamato? Was he planning to get serious after he was killed, so easily?
How do you know that Yamato life was in danger in any moment against Sasuke? What we seen in the fight was just Sasuke using his Nagashi Chidory to put his opponent in a state of disorientation and after that He put Yamato on his knees with his Kusangy, then he did the “Genjutsu” to Naruto, and suddenly Yamato frees himself from Sasukie, again, I fail to se where Yamato was outwitted or became dumb, he acted as Himself. Sasuke really doenst get any credit here either.

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Maybe, what you assume as that attack being the worse choice at that time is wrong.

Naruto planned to finish it with his jutsu, and showed in his first failed-attack that it is very easy to defend against that attack as long as it is stopped before the impact.

When there are that many opponents he might have to deal after he had done with Naruto, do you really consider Kakuzu as acting intelligent, if he had wasted his whole energy and chakra on an opponent that he assumed to be stopped easily with the way he chose? If he had actually finished his chakra by trying to fight only Naruto and be killed by the others there, would that make a good case of him being intelligent?

To me, he was mostly right in his tactic, but he made an incorrect assumption by wrongfully guessing the location of the real opponent.
Not when You are dealing with Kage Bushin, Kakuuzu made the same exact Assumption as Neeji, (its is bassically a copy of it) Kakuuzu Idea was not like an experienced Shinoby would do, given he left from getting away of Possible danger, to just put himself in front of the Jutsu.

The easiest Tactic woud had been waste less Chakra (because at stated this Transformation Gathered a lot of energy) , Get far and begin Using those Powerful Jutsu he made before, that were Long Ranged. Getting all his heart together and Attacking directly exposing all his heart it was a poor choice that doesn’t reflect on Kakuuzu supposed Experience, not even Kakashi would had fallen for that.

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We both know each other's stance, but, as long as the suspicion on the end of the fight stays the way it is right now, it will always make a good supportive-argument for me. And, the way I see it, it was a mistake on his side. And, Kakuzu's is another.
Well, then called it another stance with Kakuuzu then , because, for me it was not his Mistake, rather, he just went to Hidans level of Intelligence.

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You know we have seen lots of cases that show us even the experienced fighters are open to mistakes, I don't see why you do not want to see it that way with Kakuzu.
Because Kakuuzu had choices, including the obvious one, stay away from the close range fighter. He chooses to Rage like a bull against him, he acted stupid for Narutos benefit.

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And, examples for such cases, the one given above for Sasori, Kakashi getting easily captured in water by an opponent coming from a country that rely solely on water jutsus, By a shinoby that was very experienced, we can’t say for sure the differences, but it was not as big as between Naruto and Kakuuzu.Sandaime getting easily captured by Orochimaru, Sandaime one of the most experienced fighter falling victim to his emotions.

These kinds of things happen. If you cannot accept that it will be hard later on, when those other Akatsuki people get beaten one after the other through fights colored with interesting mistakes.
Yes, this Kind of things happens, because either the experience gap hasn’t been that great, or because one is not that Intelligent as the other one, and maybe some because of Dumbness from the counterpart.

In this case, Kakuuzu was More intelligent than Naruto and more experienced than Naruto, Kakuuzu doesn’t have any excuse, he just turned Dumb. Whereas I still fail to see the two specific Intances of Sasuke and Itachi been Dumbness from their opponents part.

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That is what I was referring above. When Naruto achieves something, it is opponent's stupidity, when Sasuke achieves the same thing, it is his greatness. Creating openings through surprises is a great asset of Naruto, and maybe one of his greatest. And honestly, trying to lower the importance of that, I don't really like it.
In other moment it was more because of Naruto own achievement, I haven’t denied this, however, In the moment specifically with Kakuuzu, Naruto doesn’t get any credit at all or little for that matter, I would had understand Naruto doing this to Dumb people as Hidan, or Less experienced people as Kisame or Deidara. But Kakuuzu doesn’t have any logical explanation, just Dumbness from Kakuuzu part.

I’m not lowering the importance of Narutos Pranks and trickeries in Other instances, neither in this one, it help Him against a powerful foe either ways, but it will remain, that this trickery worked because for his convenience his opponent opted to do what he was supposed to do for the Jutsus to hit.
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Last edited by Rurik; 2007-02-09 at 16:24. Reason: Droped some concepts ^^
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Old 2007-02-09, 16:10   Link #112
Hunter
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rasengan is still incomplete there are 8 stages or somthing but regardless its incomplete still
No there aren't, that's just an old mistranslation.
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Old 2007-02-09, 16:15   Link #113
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I agree that was a mistranslation...the new jutsu naruto is working on though is supposedly only half way finished
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Old 2007-02-09, 16:45   Link #114
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In other moment it was more because of Naruto own achievement, I havenít denied this, however, In the moment specifically with Kakuuzu, Naruto doesnít get any credit at all or little for that matter, I would had understand Naruto doing this to Dumb people as Hidan, or Less experienced people as Kisame or Deidara. But Kakuuzu doesnít have any logical explanation, just Dumbness from Kakuuzu part.

Iím not lowering the importance of Narutos Pranks and trickeries in Other instances, neither in this one, it help Him against a powerful foe either ways, but it will remain, that this trickery worked because for his convenience his opponent opted to do what he was supposed to do for the Jutsus to hit.
Well that's a really nice assumption you got there. Try not to avoid the facts presented by the author. Besides, how would you know that if Kakuzu did something else, Naruto's jutsu would not hit? They made it clear that Kakuzu is a well experienced and powerful opponent and they also made it clear that Naruto with his new jutsu, could take Kakuzu on and beat him. You can't really just assume that if he did something differently then the results would be different. You can assume that if somebody else writes this manga then there is a possibility that the result would be different.
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Old 2007-02-09, 16:48   Link #115
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Jiraiya was not in fighting mode, He was just deceived by someone that knew his weakness, if you were saying to me that in the middle of a bloody confrontment and then Itachi made a Henge and Jiraiya suddenly fell for this one, then Yes, that is stupidity. Jiraiya was tricked because His weakness was exploited in a moment where he wasn’t in a life or death situation.
Based on Jiraiya's own words, he was supposed to be "on alert" even when drinking sake with a person he trusts and when he is drunk, yet, when he was completely in an open situation, when he was aware that Akatsuki is after Naruto, he was lingering with ladies maybe assuming he has great looks that would allow a nice lady to pop up out of nowhere to hang out with him. That is just interesting.

Now, I want justice, and I desire a similar excuse to be applied for Kakuzu's case.

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Did This High level Jounnins knew they were facing Powerful opponents at that time? No they didn’t, even After Itachi made his display of power, Assuma and Kurenai still didn’t see Itahci as a shinoby to be feared as if where Orochimaru. They didn’t act stupid, they Just though they could dealt with them, and they were just wrong about it.
They are not Naruto, so I expect them to know something about that. I expect even the lowest level of jounin to know what Itachi did to his clan, and I expect them to know that Itachi became a very strong opponent at an early age and reached a level enough to annihilate his clan, a clan full of great ninjas, in a single night. Now, if they don't know that, that is plain stupid. And, if they behaved like that, even after knowing about him, that is a much much bigger problem, imo.

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And We can call that Overconfident if you want, and then you will call Kakuzu been also overconfident in that moment, but there is a difference, even if Assuma and Kurenai wouldn’t had been overconfident, The results against Itachi would had been the same, Kakuuzu, Did Had choices and the result could had been different.
I don't think the result would be different. The only possibility is his demise would be delayed a little longer, with no change in the result. And, that makes it similar to Itachi vs. Asuma/Kurenai cases.

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How do you know that Yamato life was in danger in any moment against Sasuke? ...I fail to se where Yamato was outwitted to became dumb, he acted as Himself.
How do I know, mainly because of the way I know that Asuma and Kurenai's lives were also in danger against Kisame and Itachi. Did I see them get killed or get serious there, no I didn't? Maybe if Sasuke wouldn't have given his attention to Naruto, he would have killed Yamato instantly there, but we will never know about that.

If acting as himself means getting willingfully put in a situation to easily get killed, then I hope every Akatsuki acts this way, as themselves. Kakuzu also proved that he acted himself in this fight. So, good for him, instead of being another person, he acted as himself. He earned my respect.

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Not when You are dealing with Kage Bushin, Kakuuzu made the same exact Assumption as Neeji, (its is bassically a copy of it) Kakuuzu Idea was not like an experienced Shinoby would do, given he left from getting away of Possible danger, to just put himself in front of the Jutsu.

The easiest Tactic was, waste lest Chakra (because at stated this Transformation Gathered a lot of energy) , Get far and begin Using those Powerful Jutsu he made before, that were Long Ranged, Getting all his heart together and Attacking directly exposing all his heart it was a poor choice that doesn’t reflect on Kakuuzu supposed Experience, not even Kakashi would had fallen for that.
As I said, we are not the ones to decide which method was the best.

In my opinion, he would have suffered exactly the same fate, even if he had used those attacks. And, by using those attacks, it was highly possible that with bunshins, he might have still failed to catch the real one. As a result, wasting his chakra earlier than he had a chance to damage Naruto. And ending up with zero energy left while all the opponents being alive there.

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Because Kakiuzu had choices, including the obvious one, stay away from the close range fighter. He chooses to Rage like a bull against him, he acted stupid for Narutos benefit.
He actually entered a longer-range mode, and by using extensions he didn't actually charge against Naruto as himself, but with his tentacles, similar to what Yamato would have done against a similar opponent, disrupt the opponent's balance and and attack him and his technique before it reaches to him. A pretty safe method to employ against a close range fighter.

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I’m not lowering the importance of Narutos Pranks and trickeries in Other instances, neither in this one, it help Him against a powerful foe either ways, but it will remain, that this trickery worked because for his convenience his opponent opted to do what he was supposed to do for the Jutsus to hit.
Even though you are not admitting it, you are really lowering Naruto's strength in that fight.

Now, consider this. Naruto, at the time of his clone's attack, in that very short amount of time, wenth behind of Kakuzu, created another Rasengan-Shuriken, and reached back Kakuzu. Regardless of the simplicity of that attack, Naruto displayed a great diversion tactic there.

Maybe it would be better to assume that the tricky part is so perfectly combined with Naruto's advantages (for instance, with that wide open Kyuubi eyes, displaying great speed that might even overcome Kakuzu's own there) and the characteristics of the environment, that even the strongest one would have no choice but to fall for it.

And, we are not even considering what Naruto can do, like *that jutsu* and summoning Gamabunta there.

That's one long post...
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Old 2007-02-09, 16:53   Link #116
Rurik
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Originally Posted by chuckcsf View Post
Well that's a really nice assumption you got there. Try not to avoid the facts presented by the author. Besides, how would you know that if Kakuzu did something else, Naruto's jutsu would not hit? They made it clear that Kakuzu is a well experienced and powerful opponent and they also made it clear that Naruto with his new jutsu, could take Kakuzu on and beat him. You can't really just assume that if he did something differently then the results would be different. You can assume that if somebody else writes this manga then there is a possibility that the result would be different.
If you would had read my entire post, and not just one part of it, You would had seem in no place Imp saying that another way it was a sure win, as I did say ďKakuuzu, Did Had choices and the result could had been different.Ē

Either ways, If you have good long range attack and your opponent only has Close Range attack, as this Manga has already showed various time, the logical course of action is fighting at long range. Kidoumaru was able to determine that against Neeji, and he didnt decided to release his CS level 2 and then fight Neeji at close range, even when Neeji was over and done for.
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Old 2007-02-09, 17:12   Link #117
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If you would had read my entire post, and not just one part of it, You would had seem in no place Imp saying that another way it was a sure win, as I did say “Kakuuzu, Did Had choices and the result could had been different.”

Either ways, If you have good long range attack and your opponent only has Close Range attack, as this Manga has already showed various time, the logical course of action is fighting at long range. Kidoumaru was able to determine that against Neeji, and he didnt decided to release his CS level 2 and then fight Neeji at close range, even when Neeji was over and done for.
I did read your post (and Sazelyt) and it made my eyes bleed... You assumed that I said that you said it would be a sure win if he did something else and my point is, no matter what he would have done, it would have still ended with Kakuzu defeated.

The manga already made it clear that Naruto has changed (faster, smarter, more powerful), although it doesn't show much in the illustration, but that is what the manga is implying.
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Old 2007-02-09, 17:50   Link #118
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It was again a set up situation for Konoha:

1, Hidan: the dumb guy facing the smartest shinobi. Inhuman power destroyed by the genius strategist. Shikamaru couldn't have killed any other akatsukians, a show for Shikamaru set up by Kishimoto.

2, Kakuzu: elemental specialist facing the one who unleashes the strongest known elemental attack. Again a show for Naruto set up by Kishimoto. Kakuzu swithed to use his bloodline taijutsu attack knowing that his elemental attacks are useless: he either hits only a clone or his attack is overpowered by the rasenshuriken and he gets hit by it.
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Old 2007-02-09, 17:51   Link #119
Rurik
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
Based on Jiraiya's own words, he was supposed to be "on alert" even when drinking sake with a person he trusts and when he is drunk, yet, when he was completely in an open situation, when he was aware that Akatsuki is after Naruto, he was lingering with ladies maybe assuming he has great looks that would allow a nice lady to pop up out of nowhere to hang out with him. That is just interesting.
He was supposed to be on alert because He already Had suspicious over Tsunade, so his level of trust wasn’t that high to begin with, he was just Deceived by Tsunade there and Jiraiya been drugged didn’t had anything to do with Jiriayas pervertness. So don’t try to compare two different instances here, Im not talking about how Tsuande drugged Jiraiya,

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Now, I want justice, and I desire a similar excuse to be applied for Kakuzu's case.
That not Justice, that’s your personal interest, which are not the same.


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They are not Naruto, so I expect them to know something about that. I expect even the lowest level of jounin to know what Itachi did to his clan, and I expect them to know that Itachi became a very strong opponent at an early age and reached a level enough to annihilate his clan, a clan full of great ninjas, in a single night. Now, if they don't know that, that is plain stupid. And, if they behaved like that, even after knowing about him, that is a much much bigger problem, imo.
Assuma or Kuirenai knew too mcuh about Itachis stregth, and it seems neither of the degree of how one guy could had Killed an entire clan, and that's it is still neihter lack of Knolledge or Been overconfident, and neihter it Help Itachi tactics in any way, because he didnt use any Tactics in that moment.

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I don't think the result would be different. The only possibility is his demise would be delayed a little longer, with no change in the result. And, that makes it similar to Itachi vs. Asuma/Kurenai cases.
Agree that the result of him been defeated was obvious for us, but when I speak about results, I speak of Him been defeated in a less dumb manner.

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How do I know, mainly because of the way I know that Asuma and Kurenai's lives were also in danger against Kisame and Itachi. Did I see them get killed or get serious there, no I didn't? Maybe if Sasuke wouldn't have given his attention to Naruto, he would have killed Yamato instantly there, but we will never know about that.
I say, how do you know Yamato life was in danger, based on Yamato not fighting with what he got, which he didn’t, And Kurenai at least, the one that really confronted Itachi did fought seriously. Assuma, I can’t say for sure.

Who knows if Sasuke could had killed Yamato if Naruto wasn’t there, that’s really isn’t important..

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If acting as himself means getting willingfully put in a situation to easily get killed, then I hope every Akatsuki acts this way, as themselves. Kakuzu also proved that he acted himself in this fight. So, good for him, instead of being another person, he acted as himself. He earned my respect.
When, I mean Acting as Himself, is that we didn’t see Yamato sudenly stop using His Mokuton Jutsu and Falling for Tactics made by Sasuke instead he did tryed to capture/reason/wahatever it was with Sasuke, Kakuzu acted as Himself in the fight, but at the end he changed drasticallly to fall for Narutos Trick.

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As I said, we are not the ones to decide which method was the best.

In my opinion, he would have suffered exactly the same fate, even if he had used those attacks. And, by using those attacks, it was highly possible that with bunshins, he might have still failed to catch the real one. As a result, wasting his chakra earlier than he had a chance to damage Naruto. And ending up with zero energy left while all the opponents being alive there.
You are focusing yourself in the ends, rather than the development of the fihgt, Im not talking about who had won or loose this particular fight, Im talking about Kakuuzu deciding to put himself more close to the danger.

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He actually entered a longer-range mode, and by using extensions he didn't actually charge against Naruto as himself, but with his tentacles, similar to what Yamato would have done against a similar opponent, disrupt the opponent's balance and and attack him and his technique before it reaches to him. A pretty safe method to employ against a close range fighter.
But, Did Kakuuzu use any of his Elemental Jutsu? Why didn’t he use those?

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Even though you are not admitting it, you are really lowering Naruto's strength in that fight.
Am I? Just because I’m saying that Naruto Tactics worked thanks to Kakuuzu? Please, is like me saying the same to you: even if you are not admitting it, and as clearly you have shown your bias against the villains, You are lowering Kakuuzu strength, and over exaggerating Narutos performance in this fight. lets keep the Bias topic out of the debate.

But No sir, as My Opinion, Naruto outdid himself made a Jutsu that was supposed to be impossible to archive and defeated a strong Opponent. My problem is with how Kakuuzu did the thing he should not suppose to do against a Close range fighter using Kage Bushin. And how that is in no way comparable to Sasuke and Itachi moments (whihc is the most important part).

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Now, consider this. Naruto, at the time of his clone's attack, in that very short amount of time, wenth behind of Kakuzu, created another Rasengan-Shuriken, and reached back Kakuzu. Regardless of the simplicity of that attack, Naruto displayed a great diversion tactic there.

Maybe it would be better to assume that the tricky part is so perfectly combined with Naruto's advantages (for instance, with that wide open Kyuubi eyes, displaying great speed that might even overcome Kakuzu's own there) and the characteristics of the environment, that even the strongest one would have no choice but to fall for it.
I really did not get What you tried to show me in this post.

You know, after looking at what I originally quoted, we really are deviating from the main point into sub-points which really are to troublesome to Debate about them.

My main concern whit your observation is that the instances with Itachi. Jiraiya and Kurenai, there were really no Tactics. Only with Jiriaya (and that’s debatable), And It seems like dumbness from Jiraya part, but it because that Dumbness happens to be his weakness, it was there all along, it was nothing new… needles to say, I would had fallen for that trap very easily.

That Assuma and Kurenai were overconfident they could take on Akatsuki?, its quite understandable, there are just S-rank criminals, and Assuma and Kurenai are Jounins that should be able to take S-rank criminals on, again, I don’t seem Dumbness from Asssuma or Kurenai, that helped Itachi in any way, besides that Itachi never made any Tactic at all. Asuma and Kurenai just had the bad luck that those S-rank criminals were more than Just Jounnin level shinoby.

In the case of Sasuke, its simple, Yamato wasn’t acting serius, However, Sasuke wasn’t relying on Tactics either, So anyone that tries to give credit to Sasuke in this place because his tactics, needs to look Him(her)sefl in the mirror, and then slap his/her Face. Sasuke only credit here was that he did surprised other with his rumored enhanced body.

But My main complaint over Kakuuzu, is that he fell for a tactic he should had not fell, regardless if his attack was or wasn’t the best choice for that moment. This one is not the new Naruto, because Naruto already made this Tactic against Neeji, Tricking his opponent to attack an specific Kage Bushin.

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Originally Posted by chuckcsf View Post
I did read your post (and Sazelyt) and it made my eyes bleed... You assumed that I said that you said it would be a sure win if he did something else and my point is, no matter what he would have done, it would have still ended with Kakuzu defeated.
Now now, we all knew Kakuuzu was going to be defeated, but thats not my point I never talked about Naruto wining or loosing the fight. I talked specifically about the tactic That Kakuuzu fell for.
Quote:
The manga already made it clear that Naruto has changed (faster, smarter, more powerful), although it doesn't show much in the illustration, but that is what the manga is implying.
I never had said Naruto is not different, but...This tactic was already done some 245 Chapters ago, so this one is not part of the new Naruto.

.
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Old 2007-02-09, 17:53   Link #120
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Hmm Ok, well after reading most of this discussion it seems people are pretty torn up over if Naruto deserves to get credit for Kakuzu's Defeat.

Ok aside from all the things that were already mentioned by other people, the truth in the matter is Naruto gets absolute and full credit for defeating Kakuzu. Its guerrilla warfare if you think about it. Firstly, Kakuzu did everything he had to do in order to maintain his Chakra and still plan out a way to win. As gibits said we already know Kakuzu had lost 2 hearts, that’s 40% of his Chakra gone, his combined elemental attack was countered with another combined elemental attack (which could have been done again if needed), Naruto has unlimited clones, to use such high level elemental jutsu against them would be a huge waste of chakra.

None the less moving on, it was not Kakuzu's stupidity for falling for "The oldest trick in the book" (lets not forget, there is a reason it is the oldest trick in the book because even the smartest of people fall for it - gibits). It was Kakuzu's fear and state of mind that caused him to fall for it, hence guerrilla warfare. I don’t know if most of you noticed but after that first close call and, Kakuzu knowing exactly how powerful Naruto's jutsu was just by first glace struck fear in his heart, Kakuzu's first and foremost objective was to get RID of that jutsu one way or another or he was NOT safe / could not focus on anything else (the jutsu was all he could think about). That was his biggest downfall, also his other downfall is most likely assuming that only the original Naruto can / will use the jutsu.

None the less, Naruto gets full credit, at that point Kakuzu had an opponent with nearly unlimited chakra + 4 more people behind him if he was defeated, seriously what were Kakuzu's choices? He was struck with the fear of the RasenShuriken and did what he could to avoid it, even changed in to a more long range fighter then he already was, to keep the maximum distance. Which in turn lead to his downfall, Kakuzu did not get dumber, his focus was changed forcefully by Naruto's first attempt (remeber Naruto also caught Kakuzu the first time around without relying on his old tricks, wheres the credit for that?), instead of thinking of the "over all" due to fear and the will to live/win, Kakuzu had only one goal which was to eliminate whoever held "that jutsu", that is what caused Kakuzu's defeat. That objective was put in to Kakuzu by Naruto hence, Naruto gets full credit and then some for pulling of one of the oldest and best switcharu known to man, on a great shinobi like Kakuzu.

All Kishimoto did was switch them around (the first and second trial), think of it this way what if we as the fans switched around what had happened. Lets say Naruto had tried the ole clone switcharu first, succeeded but failed to deliver the jutsu. Then he used the "I'll need about 3 clones to distract him blah blah" and landed his jutsu! Naruto would look a lot more impressive them would he not? Well guess what, Naruto caught Kakuzu off guard both times with his "New strategic planning self" and with his "Old tricks".

So its the same deal, because no matter how you look at it Naruto gets credit for the first time catching Kakuzu off guard, without using his old tricks, if Kishimoto switched those two around then Naruto would look like the man.
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