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Old 2007-06-24, 18:22   Link #341
Risaa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digiwombat View Post
Hey,

Randall Fitzgerald here.

I'm actually looking into it more seriously than Lordshade says. Haha.

As it is, before moving forward on it, I need to get some money together, then get my people together and start working things out.

By the time I get all that shit together, however, someone else may grab up KnJ (could take me a year... yeesh.). BUT I HAVE PLANS, DAMNIT. Might now count for much, but there you go. I'm missing a lot of the luck other people have, but, hey, I'm working on it. Of course, my day job and other projects slow things down, but I AM ONLY ONE MAN!

Ok, back to work. Haha.
Mm, if you're really serious, then the first step is to *sound* serious.

It'd be great if someone could pick it up, but it's difficult... like I said previously, I wish I could do it myself, but I just don't have the resources. I currently have time to devote, but no money for it. (I also think I'm too young to hold such a position. )

For an electronic version, you'd have to do a lot of advertising in all the right places for it to have any sort of success... but there will always be people like me who prefer a hard-copy and wouldn't pay money for what's essentially "professional" scanlations. :/
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Old 2007-06-24, 21:59   Link #342
Masanori Ota
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The largest expense would be buying the rights. You can always publish the product on a exact-demand basis: no more than what you need at any given time. For example: http://www.lulu.com/. But that's only for normal books, as far as I know. A digital version could also be very popular and profitable, assuming you could protect the files in some way which would prevent people like us from sharing it.
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Old 2007-06-25, 00:06   Link #343
robertness
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Based on prior experiences, I have the following comments about small press publishing of something like KnJ:

Print on demand is for chumps. The only people who make money from it are the printers. And you'll lose money in set up fees if you don't sell thousands of copies.

Digital distribution in 2007 is essentially the same as sell one copy and give away thousands. If it's on a hard drive, it will be hacked and distributed for free.

Amazon and legitimate book distributors won't touch your title unless you have tens of thousands of copies which you are willing to sell to them for 50% of the cover price. Furthermore, you must be willing to buy back all copies they cannot sell in a reasonable time frame. Don't consider your plan serious unless you're going to put at least $50,000 into printing and distribution.

Based on other royalty streams, my theory is Japanese publishers won't talk to established US publishers about licensing if they're not willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars plus a percentage. My guess is an independent publisher would have to come up with at least $25,000 and 10% of the cover price to license a multi-volume manga. I'd say the best bet for anyone buying the rights to KnJ is offering to buy them from 7 Seas for cents on the dollar of what they paid.

And that's why I fantasize about licensing the "neglected" manga and anime I love -- if I were a millionaire.
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Old 2007-06-25, 01:03   Link #344
Vexx
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Aye, the only 'very small volume' printers I know pretty much stick to relatively tame stuff (like Plan Nine Comics, for example) or have a different primary audience (Dark Horse, for example).

You can pretty much name any country in the world and it'll have a mess of literature, comics, and the like that never see the shores of the New World because its considered 'too small an audience' for whatever reason.

Hobbyist translators and scanlators pretty much fill the void for those of us that want to see what the rest of the world has to offer without having to learn multiple languages.
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Old 2007-06-25, 02:24   Link #345
digiwombat
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Haha, actually printing would likely cost me more money than buying the rights to multiple books. Printing rights for manga aren't THAT bad. Bad for people who are just willy-nilly.

I am NOT looking into anything like digital distro or Lulu. Come on, seriously?

I mean, like I said, I'm serious about this. Serious like putting out real books in real stores serious.

Also, I don't need advice or offbase prices thrown at me. Haha. I have my sources, I have my contacts, and I have hard numbers to work with. I know about wholesale. I know about printing.

Like I said, I'm just getting things in a row to see what I can do with the prospect. Might work out, might not. There are a lot of pieces that need to fall into place for me to get anything going.

But again, totally serious about this. I know it's not the normal path for our sort, but I'm honestly fed up with the industry, so I'm pulling every string I can to see if I can put my own dream into motion here.

I expect lots of negativity all around, but all I can really say to it is we'll see and keep on truckin'.

Also, I'm not the type to half-ass things... except programming stuff... and that's because I do it all for free. Haha. :'( Someone should pay me for all this shit I have going. hahaha. Ok, now I have to go to sleep for sake of my day job. BUT THEN!!! MORE WORK@!@@
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Old 2007-06-25, 03:23   Link #346
Vexx
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You make it, I'll buy them. Doing risk analysis isn't "negativity" anymore than someone throwing a tip on what kind of armor to wear for what you expect to encounter <shrug>.

Last edited by Vexx; 2007-06-25 at 03:41.
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Old 2007-06-25, 14:59   Link #347
FatPianoBoy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digiwombat View Post
Also, I don't need advice or offbase prices thrown at me. Haha. I have my sources, I have my contacts, and I have hard numbers to work with. I know about wholesale. I know about printing.
I think everyone is simultaneously trying to gauge your level of seriousness as well as trying to inform you of the risks/investments involved.

For marketing, my suggestion would be to set up a website and sell direct to the customers. You keep the maximum profits, the customers pay a (hopefully) lower price, and no mucking about with retailers, which is where this thing's downward spiral began.

If you sell, I will buy, so there's two volumes sold, at least.



If this ends up working out, promise me Mahoraba is next
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Old 2007-06-25, 15:43   Link #348
Thany
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Saha released chapter 22 to 25
Spoiler for chapter 23:
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Old 2007-06-25, 16:43   Link #349
digiwombat
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Haha, sorry if I came off as a dick. I've just already gotten the hellfire and brimstone from a number of my contacts. I've been doing risk analysis, and that's why I'm saying it could be a while, since I need to at least mildly assure that if this does blow up, I am able to personally survive it. Haha. I don't need to be homeless, damnit.

As for distro, I'd certainly be looking at direct sales, though by and large, I have been getting a lot of info about the importance of retail presences. Beyond that, being as I am a gigantic web nerd, I have some ideas about some things there. But hey, don't want to get ahead of myself. I'm sure you'll see me whoring myself all over the web if I can get this thing off the ground.
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Old 2007-06-25, 16:44   Link #350
Risaa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Doing risk analysis isn't "negativity" anymore than someone throwing a tip on what kind of armor to wear for what you expect to encounter <shrug>.
O_o... No comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy View Post
I think everyone is simultaneously trying to gauge your level of seriousness as well as trying to inform you of the risks/investments involved.
Yes... I'm having trouble figuring how serious you really are. What you're actually saying suggests that you're serious, but your tone of voice (tone of *writing*, I guess) suggests otherwise. Since you say you're aware of what it takes to license and distribute KnJ, I'll stop with my "it's difficult to do" attitude and let you do what you have to do.

....I would buy your copies of KnJ, too, though more for the sake of curiosity... and offer my services if I find anything lacking. Not that I think your copies would be lacking. (And I fully agree Mahoraba *must* be next if it works out.)

EDIT: Digiwombat, I totally missed your post above mine until now (thread got bumped because of Kyuusai's post below mine). I think I missed you because, as silly as it sounds, you don't have an avatar to catch my attention. Would you like a Rin avatar? I'll be more than willing to make you one.
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Old 2007-06-25, 16:57   Link #351
Kyuusai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
You make it, I'll buy them. Doing risk analysis isn't "negativity" anymore than someone throwing a tip on what kind of armor to wear for what you expect to encounter <shrug>.
I heard that online distribution gets an automatic +1 against overprotective-soccer-mom attacks.

Of course, stories containing questionable content get a saving throw if they contain a moral.



As for how serious any one considering publishing is... The proof's in the pudding. It's not as hard as most seem to think, but it takes some cash and gumption.
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Old 2007-06-25, 21:35   Link #352
digiwombat
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Yeah, I should probably make an avatar. >.> I have a few that I use around... Ah, it's such a pain to edit them.

Anyway, I know lots of people misjudge me since I find it near impossible to, pardon me for using the expression again, be all hellfire and brimstone about things.

As for money, I'm working on that aspect. Honestly, it's the biggest hurdle. But I've got the will, and I'm a god among men. These are two important things, I think. haha. There I got not being serious again.

But as Kyuusai said, the proof is 100% in the pudding. If I don't turn up anything, that's that.

I have some interesting/kick ass/super beneficial for fans ideas about digital distro, IF I can get things A CRACKITY CRACKIN'! Man, that was gay. Ok, I'm starting to sound stupid now. Best I move along.

On a side note: How is Mahoraba not licensed already?! JEEZ. And people keep insisting to me that manga is popular over here. -_-
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Old 2007-06-27, 02:17   Link #353
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OK, I've been wanting to post this for a few weeks, yet never got around to it. Finally, here I go.

I touched on it a bit in the anime thread when I'd only read isolated pages I'd found on the web, but since then, due to the continued discussion, I decided to read what's been released to see what was what. I certainly have a different view of the manga than I did before, but my conclusions are similar.

As a self-proclaimed prude, I am not offended by the story content. I also share in the outrage over the proclaimed reason for dropping the project. I can't blame any one for deciding that publishing it would not be wise, and I can't blame any one for not continuing with a project that would not make it through the distribution chain, but either the decision was made with incredible ignorance or we didn't get an honest answer.

This is CLEARLY not a story about a "romance" between a child and an adult. This is clearly not to encourage, glorify, or depict a sexual relationship between a child and an adult.

This is, so far, a story about...
- A young man learning and maturing in the beginning of his adult life.
- The education system and the teachers and students in it, and how they affect each other.
- Children growing up without proper parenting.
- Some other young adults who lacked love as youths and are not well adjusted adults thanks to that.
- The misunderstandings that can come from the above.

I found the story very compelling, and at appropriate times humorous, touching, disturbing, and dramatic. I also identified heavily with Daisuke, and thought Houin was amusing and sweet. All of the characters, though, were well written and identifiable.

I can understand some objections to it that I personally don't share:
- Some may object to comedy or other storylines sharing the space with something as serious as Rin's actions. I don't see things that way, because the comedy and other story elements are what endears us to the characters to be able to tell such a story in a compelling fashion. As well, although Rine's actions are clearly NOT the norm or anywhere near acceptable in Japan, Japanese culture gives some leeway in letting us laugh at this. We're talking about a culture where parents bathe with children and children think it's a funny game to stick fingers up each others behinds, after all.
- Some people may object to the subculture elements present in a story with such serious subject matter. I can respect that people think that way, but also know that not every one reads with a mindset that would necessarily mean that Kuro's occasional nekomimi mean that the rest of the story is being made light of. As well, it could be that this story is aimed at the demographic that would read it for the wrong reasons, but needs to see the serious message behind it.
- Some may object to Rin having a crush on her teacher, to Mimi having a crush on Reiji, to Kuro having a crush on Rin, Rin and Kuro's knowledge of "adult affairs", or Rin's relationship with Reiji, but we are not expected to treat their feelings, views, or interactions as proper or valid. We're simply seeing the minds of children about to enter adolescence, and specifically children who've not had proper childhoods. And yes, it is Japan, so different standards are in place--whether they're considered correct or not, that's the way things are (Rin and Kuro being extreme examples, of course). There's also the more minor issue of Japanese being less lewd and more ambiguous in certain contexts.
- Earlier, Risaa brought up the good point that Rin's behavior seems to constant, to the point that it's really all we see about her. I think this is a very good point, but I think a lot of that is due to the medium it's presented in. A story that tries to divide itself up weekly, yet still keep it's theme clear, is going to have the theme material repeated and driven into the ground. It probably could have been avoided, but I don't think this, itself, is indicidative that the story is perverse. I can certainly see this as a very valid reason to not read the story, though.
- Some may object to some of this content being in a story at all. Well... They have every right to think so, and the authors have every right to write it. I personally think that these are some very important issues that need stories told in a manner that doesn't merely wallow in the drama of it all, but makes constructive points.
- Some may object to some of the imagery used to depict Rin's intentional antics, but I can't imagine how else the gravity of the situation would be conveyed. I don't think that in these cases we are expected to see Rin as anything but a child. Some may argue that they simply go too far. I agree with them on that point.

So those are my responses to any objections I've seen or been able to consider. HOWEVER...

(You knew there'd be a "However", didn't you?)

There is one element I cannot explain or defend. That is the seemingly sexualized imagery that is out of context of Rin's intentionally inappropriate behavior. Don't get me wrong: having grown up with Japanese media, I don't immediately see a kid in the bath as sexualized imagery. However, there are plenty of examples of illustrations that could be considered innuendo, or would be considered blatant fanservice poses and angles if it were an adult character. So if there is no reason, even incidental, to add such imagery... why do it in the first place? What is it meant to accomplish? Is the author trying to attract the lolicon demographic? Unless the point would be to attract them to a "public service message" hidden in the story, why would she? Perhaps the author, despite trying to take a mature look at these sensitive issues, is still driven to do something like that by her own negative experiences?

The controversy baffles me, to be honest. The STORY isn't the problem--if it ends up being a problem, it will be a change from the current direction it's taking. The IMAGES are the problem.

I know that there are many lolicons out there who openly read this because of their lolicon "interests". I also know that there are some lolicons out there who try to defend this on (some of) its merits but are motivated by lesser interests. I'd be surprised many would stick with it, though, considering the direction of the story and its implicit condemnation of their interests. I guess some of the imagery and deliberate misinterpretations of certain events encourage them.

The work itself contains an important, entertaining, and mostly non-objectionable story, but also contains extraneous imagery that seems to contradict part of its message. The defenders of the work contain people who defend the story based on its genuine merits but also contain people who defend the work due to perverse ulterior motives. It makes the work very hard to interpret, and very hard to defend.
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Old 2007-06-27, 02:55   Link #354
digiwombat
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If anything drives me, it's the condemnation. I, for one, do not intend to let what is happening to Manhunt 2 happen to an art form I love.

The story has in it exactly what the artist intended to be in it and the people who don't like it can take themselves and piss off.

Really, and this is just one crazy free expression activist here, the only thing that offends me about all of this is that people even think it's ok to NOT publish something because it offends any number of people.

I could go on in my long winded manner, but really, that's the root of it. Offended parties don't have to look at it. We want to look at it.

And here's a kicker. Try not to let it blow your mind. I love the book, but I'm not into loli. WOOOOOAH!

Here's another kicker. I hate yaoi, actively. But if it was on the chopping block, I'd still be here acting like an ass, blatantly in disregard of the sort of structured snugglefest people seem to take part in these days.

And a few more bullet points really fast:

1.) In art, there is no such thing as "going too far."
2.) Rin is not a child any more than Snoopy is a dog.
3.) A key thing that I think is being missed, is a common theme in manga. That being the archtype of the overly mature young person. Take Negi as an example. Extremely put upon at a young age, like Rin, therefore he can handle himself more or less properly in the adult world. Rin acts out a bit more, but in general, her love is presented as fairly valid in a protagonist perspective.

Still, any offensive imagery the manga contains is still art. It's art the same as the DaVinci and Van Eyck whether anyone likes it or not.

Damnit, I dragged on again.

Still, whether people are reading it to get their dick up, or reading it for the story, it's all the same. The want to enjoy it. It's not anyone's place to tell them not it.

And, finally, it's not hard to defend. It just takes a stronger will that most people are willing to stand up with. And that's pitiful for them, but I'll do it all day. And I'll do the same thing for Tom's of Finland and yaoi and hyper gory books, games, and movies. I don't like any of that crap, but it's not for me to say what people can like, so long as they aren't hurting someone else. (On a side note, that's really what all this is about, right? People aren't satisfied that we can't pre-protect people from crimes, so we figure we might as well step on a few rights in the name of SAVING THE CHILDREN. Sorry, not how civil liberties work. Of course, I never want a kid to be hurt, but until someone hurts the kid, or can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be planning to do so, FOR SURE, then they're not guilty of anything save upsetting some bellyachers.)

Sorry, if I come off as a dick. I intended to. I feel like I'm the only sane person standing in a field of crazy because I want to ensure that NOTHING gets censored. Freedom comes before EVERYTHING else to me. Also, this will not make me any friends, but lots of these rabble rousers point to child molestation and call this a gateway. 1.) Most general porn studies prove the opposite, even when people are exposed heavily fetished porn that that enjoy. Meaning, more or less, porn doesn't make baby rapers. They're like that from the get go. And 2.) People are blowing the molestation problem WAY out of proportion. The numbers are low. Sorry, babies. I'm still more concerned about the meth problems. And gangs. And Muslims.

Ok, really done, now. I always end up going long. Damnit.
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Old 2007-06-27, 03:59   Link #355
Risaa
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Sorry Digiwombat, but I'm going to disregard most of your post except for this tidbit (which will actually explain why I'm disregarding your post - it all works out!):
Quote:
Originally Posted by digiwombat View Post
Sorry, if I come off as a dick. I intended to. I feel like I'm the only sane person standing in a field of crazy because I want to ensure that NOTHING gets censored.
It's admirable that you are standing up and fighting for what you believe in, however, I think you're going about it the wrong way. Who are you most likely to listen to and engage in conversation with: a guy who screams and cries about his views, or a guy who calmly and sanely explains what he feels and why he feels that way? With you intentionally coming across as a dick (or even if it were unintentional), there's no way anyone's going to want to listen to you and come to understand what you're saying and why you feel the way you do. [Edited out a line. *swt!*]

My point is, if you want to be heard and especially, to be taken seriously (this also goes for your previous posts), you really should work on *how* you say what you want to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuusai View Post
- Some may object to [. . .] Rin and Kuro's knowledge of "adult affairs", [. . .] but we are not expected to treat their feelings, views, or interactions as proper or valid. We're simply seeing the minds of children about to enter adolescence, and specifically children who've not had proper childhoods. And yes, it is Japan, so different standards are in place--whether they're considered correct or not, that's the way things are (Rin and Kuro being extreme examples, of course). There's also the more minor issue of Japanese being less lewd and more ambiguous in certain contexts.
I knew I'd probably get nailed for this. Though I do find it highly unbelievable that Rin and Kuro would know about, well, all they know, it *is* a work of fiction and I wouldn't drop a series just because of a child's extreme precociousness. It's common in all types of fictional media (not just anime, but novels, movies, and TV shows as well) to feature an incredibly mature child, all for the sake of illustrating a point or two, so I can't really get all wound up over Rin and Kuro knowing things they shouldn't.

Quote:
There is one element I cannot explain or defend. That is the seemingly sexualized imagery that is out of context of Rin's intentionally inappropriate behavior. [. . .] However, there are plenty of examples of illustrations that could be considered innuendo, or would be considered blatant fanservice poses and angles if it were an adult character.
This kind of goes along with why I ended up disliking Rin as much as I do. She's almost always acting inappropriately, but is also being shown in that kind of fanservicey, sexual light (which goes back and reminds me of how she's almost always acting inappropriately!). I'm interested in hearing other thoughts about this.

Last but not least... Gao, frustrated I can't cookie you twice in one night. It's really nice to see more critical thoughts and opinions on such a deep piece as KnJ.
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Last edited by Risaa; 2007-06-27 at 14:24. Reason: Fixed "all types of fiction"... what I meant was "all types of fictional media". Cut me some slack, it was 2AM when I posted.
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Old 2007-06-27, 06:35   Link #356
Hayami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuusai View Post
I know that there are many lolicons out there who openly read this because of their lolicon "interests". I also know that there are some lolicons out there who try to defend this on (some of) its merits but are motivated by lesser interests. I'd be surprised many would stick with it, though, considering the direction of the story and its implicit condemnation of their interests. I guess some of the imagery and deliberate misinterpretations of certain events encourage them.

The work itself contains an important, entertaining, and mostly non-objectionable story, but also contains extraneous imagery that seems to contradict part of its message. The defenders of the work contain people who defend the story based on its genuine merits but also contain people who defend the work due to perverse ulterior motives. It makes the work very hard to interpret, and very hard to defend.
And what if it was created mainly as entertainment for loli art fans? Would it mean that it's fine to cancel the release and never publish it?

You know, loli art fans are people too... Why do you use apostrophe? Is it just to condemn our interests (interests in art, not in anything real) once again?

So if I love loli art and want to see a loli fanservice artwork to be published my motives must be perverse? Do you think it's OK to call all loli art fans "perverts"? Shouldn't we keep it civil and avoid name calling?
You know, some loli art fans might think that there's something wrong with you if you can't enjoy loli art (because you can't help but apply a moral judgment to a fantasy artwork or are stuck in your adult self, unable to feel/imagine yourself as child)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Risaa View Post
With you intentionally coming across as a dick (or even if it were unintentional), there's no way anyone's going to want to listen to you and come to understand what you're saying and why you feel the way you do. [Edited out a line. *swt!*]
Actually I loved Digiwombat's last post, but I'm just a perverted loli art fan, so disregard my views.



@ Digiwombat
I feel the same. I like loli, but strongly dislike yaoi, guro, furry. I would defend the latter three just like I defend loli anyway.

I might even add the 1. from your list to my signature:
Quote:
Originally Posted by digiwombat
In art, there is no such thing as "going too far."
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Old 2007-06-27, 07:42   Link #357
Thany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuusai View Post
There is one element I cannot explain or defend. That is the seemingly sexualized imagery that is out of context of Rin's intentionally inappropriate behavior. Don't get me wrong: having grown up with Japanese media, I don't immediately see a kid in the bath as sexualized imagery. However, there are plenty of examples of illustrations that could be considered innuendo, or would be considered blatant fanservice poses and angles if it were an adult character. So if there is no reason, even incidental, to add such imagery... why do it in the first place? What is it meant to accomplish? Is the author trying to attract the lolicon demographic? Unless the point would be to attract them to a "public service message" hidden in the story, why would she? Perhaps the author, despite trying to take a mature look at these sensitive issues, is still driven to do something like that by her own negative experiences?
So can you explain me why the only figures for Kodomo no Jikan are these?
No seriously, you don't seem to understand this manga is obviously popular, especially to the lolicons and not necessary used as if it was an 'ero-manga'
Actually what I find funny is how it is not obvious with all the loli fanservices Kodomo no Jikan has that it is obviously targetting lolicons?
Of course it doesn't mean you have be to be one to enjoy this manga, but you'll surely be tagged as one anyway (wether you're really in denial or not ).
Just a little thought: I've seen a figure preview of Rin in a TECH GIAN DVD, so yeh

No, seriously, quit covering your eyes, it's obvious that even if the story is fine this manga is targetting lolicons and that is why it happens to have fanservice involving Rin or any of the others girls.
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Old 2007-06-27, 12:03   Link #358
Kyuusai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digiwombat View Post
Really, and this is just one crazy free expression activist here, the only thing that offends me about all of this is that people even think it's ok to NOT publish something because it offends any number of people.

I could go on in my long winded manner, but really, that's the root of it. Offended parties don't have to look at it. We want to look at it.

And here's a kicker. Try not to let it blow your mind. I love the book, but I'm not into loli. WOOOOOAH!

Here's another kicker. I hate yaoi, actively. But if it was on the chopping block, I'd still be here acting like an ass, blatantly in disregard of the sort of structured snugglefest people seem to take part in these days.
First let me say that I love the manga aside from the parts I voiced my objection to, so I am not amazed in the slightest that non-lolicons enjoy it.

I happen to be a free-speech advocate, myself, but I'm not outraged that this book hasn't found domestic release, just that we didn't get a good reason for it. Let me explain the difference.

Presently, we can discuss this, and aside from copyright issues, possess and share these works with zero worry of the law preventing it. The artist would not be hampered in its creation in any way. In fact, if we were persecuted for any of those things, we'd be protected by the law. We have those rights not only because people have differences of opinion, but we must be able to discern, critique, and discuss for ourselves.

The law does not guarantee that other people have to like it. Seven Seas and all their distributors are businesses, and made up of people. Even if making money was not their goal (it is), they still have every right to decide they'd just rather not be involved or would prefer to cater to the objectors and protestors. These businesses are not common carriers, and that decision is their right and freedom, just as others have the right and freedom to object and protest, just as this manga's supporters have the freedom to own and discuss it.

As a ridiculous example, if society took a turn and found cheese to be supremely offensive, I'd be mighty disappointed that import wholesalers stopped selling gouda since retailers wouldn't stock it. Any outrage I had would be focused on the social forces that caused cheese to be so maligned--after the question was settled over whether or not anything was actually wrong with cheese.

Quote:
Originally Posted by digiwombat View Post
And a few more bullet points really fast:

1.) In art, there is no such thing as "going too far."
2.) Rin is not a child any more than Snoopy is a dog.
3.) A key thing that I think is being missed, is a common theme in manga. That being the archtype of the overly mature young person. Take Negi as an example. Extremely put upon at a young age, like Rin, therefore he can handle himself more or less properly in the adult world. Rin acts out a bit more, but in general, her love is presented as fairly valid in a protagonist perspective.

Still, any offensive imagery the manga contains is still art. It's art the same as the DaVinci and Van Eyck whether anyone likes it or not.
1.) Yes, there is, but that varies by the artist, themselves, and is a decision that is theirs to make. The consideration of the audience is an entirely different matter. Not only should wisdom be used in deciding who to display art to, but any audience is free to judge it according to their own whims.
2.) This is kind of ironic, because what makes Snoopy's actions and observations humorous and insightful is that he IS a dog. Likewise, it is the very point that Rin is a child that gives gravity, poignance, and humor to her thoughts and actions.
3.) You are correct in that early maturation is a common theme in manga, but this story takes a more mature, realistic look at that phenomenon: Reiji is mature for his years, but despite his tremendous love just doesn't have the maturity to quite be a proper father to Rin, and it shows in his discipline, his lack of perspective in dealing with Daisuke, and just a little bit in his admiration of Rin, whom he sees as an extension of her mother than as a daughter. Likewise, Rin and Kuro both develop feelings for some one else but make childish assumptions about the implications and appropriate views of their feelings, and we are given perspective on their childlike assumptions by occasionally seeing the viewpoints and analysis of the adults around them. Their feelings aren't presented as valid in the sense of being proper, but only in the sense that they're things that are not unusual to feel in their situation, whether they are right or wrong.

Really, though, the interpretation of art has a LOT to do with the context and audience. If your neighbor painted a gruesome, violent scene on his fance facing your house, would you consider that in poor taste? Just because something is art doesn't mean we can't still apply taste, sensibility, and sensitivity. (Of course, some art is intended to provoke, but I think that's outside the scope of this issue.)

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Originally Posted by Risaa View Post
I knew I'd probably get nailed for this. Though I do find it highly unbelievable that Rin and Kuro would know about, well, all they know, it *is* a work of fiction and I wouldn't drop a series just because of a child's extreme precociousness. It's common in all types of fiction (not just anime, but novels, movies, and TV shows as well) to feature an incredibly mature child, all for the sake of illustrating a point or two, so I can't really get all wound up over Rin and Kuro knowing things they shouldn't.


This kind of goes along with why I ended up disliking Rin as much as I do. She's almost always acting inappropriately, but is also being shown in that kind of fanservicey, sexual light (which goes back and reminds me of how she's almost always acting inappropriately!). I'm interested in hearing other thoughts about this.
Well, actually, while I'll defend other series for age-bending, I actually don't see that in this series excepting in the children's intellectual capacity. Rin and Kuro are clearly meant to be exceptions FAR out of the range of normal children, and Mimi is presented as a good example of normalcy, despite her early physical maturation. There is a very serious reason why Rin and Kuro are this way, outside of chance: They are products of their unfortunate upbringing.

I spent a lot of time in a university's psychology department since my father was a graduate student there, and heard about many people with very unfortunate psychological disorders that seemed unbelievable to those who spent time on the "outside". I'll suffice to say that I've heard of far worse than Rin and Kuro, so while they're unusual, they're not at all outside the realm of reality, and that their situations are not recognized by those around them is part of the tragedy of the story.

On a side note, I'm glad to hear some one use "gao".
Yes, I own the t-shirt!

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Originally Posted by Hayami View Post
And what if it was created mainly as entertainment for loli art fans? Would it mean that it's fine to cancel the release and never publish it?

You know, loli art fans are people too... Why do you use apostrophe? Is it just to condemn our interests (interests in art, not in anything real) once again?

So if I love loli art and want to see a loli fanservice artwork to be published my motives must be perverse? Do you think it's OK to call all loli art fans "perverts"? Shouldn't we keep it civil and avoid name calling?
You know, some loli art fans might think that there's something wrong with you if you can't enjoy loli art (because you can't help but apply a moral judgment to a fantasy artwork or are stuck in your adult self, unable to feel/imagine yourself as child)


Actually I loved Digiwombat's last post, but I'm just a perverted loli art fan, so disregard my views.
All "perverse" has to mean is "willingly counter to the norm". For the record, though I didn't intend "perverse" in its more insulting aspects, yes, I do think sexual attention toward children is grievously wrong. Being responsible for children's wellbeing can make a person feel that way even if they didn't believe so before (and I always have believed so, by avenue of my own rational, logical observation and judgement).

On the other hand, I'm not out for a witch hunt. I love children, and I think enjoying cute (NON-sexualized) imagery of children is perfectly normal. One admiration I have for Japanese culture is the free expression of paternal love, admiration, and infatuation with children, and a male appreciation of (for lack of a better word) cuteness, which just isn't done in the US. However, I have to deal with the soccer-moms who ARE out on a witch hunt and might very well accuse me when I've done nothing wrong, the pedophiles who give them fuel for their fire, and those who produce mainstream works that intentionally pander to pedophiles and make things far more complicated.

If you just thing images of children are pleasant to look at, congratulations, you have human instinct. If you find them to be sexually pleasing, you need counseling, and the sooner the better. Don't get me wrong, you don't incur any wrath from me if you aren't actually harming children, but I won't sugar coat it and say it's OK to feel that way. Though you certainly have the freedom to discuss it (as you well should), that doesn't make it a valid condition. This isn't a thread to debate pedophilia, though. As long as we properly understand where every one stands, I think we can discuss the work properly here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thany View Post
So can you explain me why the only figures for Kodomo no Jikan are these?
No seriously, you don't seem to understand this manga is obviously popular, especially to the lolicons and not necessary used as if it was an 'ero-manga'
Actually what I find funny is how it is not obvious with all the loli fanservices Kodomo no Jikan has that it is obviously targetting lolicons?
Of course it doesn't mean you have be to be one to enjoy this manga, but you'll surely be tagged as one anyway (wether you're really in denial or not ).
Just a little thought: I've seen a figure preview of Rin in a TECH GIAN DVD, so yeh

No, seriously, quit covering your eyes, it's obvious that even if the story is fine this manga is targetting lolicons and that is why it happens to have fanservice involving Rin or any of the others girls.
Actually, I think you missed that my questions were rhetorical. I can see contrary evidence and alternate possibilities, but despite them cannot come to any other conclusion that the manga is targeted toward lolicons. The author comments in her blog that she believes the comic has been dropped due to a scene depicting a child and adult bathing together, so we can assume that if she's telling the truth then she saw the entirety of the rest of the content as less objectionable--at least in the context of her story. Did she really see it as non-sexual, or at least not objectionable in its place in the story, which despite how others are trying to interpret it (for whatever reasons) is antithetical to pedophile fantasy? I do recall a quote from her saying that she wanted to push the boundaries of what could be done in a mainstream magazine, but what did she mean: the images, the subject matter, or just something non-typical of the genre in its social commentary? There is the slim possibility she intended it to appeal to the lolicon demographic in hopes they would see the story and gain perspective. There is also the possibility that the author has some issues herself, and the her story and drawings are an outlet for her, whether unwitting or not. Whether any of them are likely or not, they are possibilities that should be considered so the work can be interpreted properly. For the time being, I've had to conclude that it simply is lolicon material, though.

I do add one note to that: I do not judge any work by its marketing materials or affiliated products. They can give some idea, but can be very misleading. There are plenty of "cast-off" figures for shows that never had nudity or a panty shot.

Last edited by Kyuusai; 2007-06-27 at 12:22.
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Old 2007-06-27, 12:56   Link #359
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Well it's pretty obvious it was done on purpose, because, if you think about it, there hasn't been any mangas like this one out in Japan, so since it's special, it works and becomes popular (at least toward the loli crowd if not more).
Personally I found the concept amusing and I don't have anything against that type of humor either (actually I do like dark humor and the such^^).

As for the 'problem' with the nutidy, I think you should just back off with it, there's much less nudity then in other mangas that happens to be filled with fanservice and the fanservices aren't getting to the point to destroy the story either
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Old 2007-06-27, 13:07   Link #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thany View Post
As for the 'problem' with the nutidy, I think you should just back off with it, there's much less nudity then in other mangas that happens to be filled with fanservice and the fanservices aren't getting to the point to destroy the story either
Nudity itself doesn't bother me. Unnecessarily sexualized imagery bothers me, but the issue here is sexualized imagery of children (fictional and drawn, of course).

That is what the controversy is about, yes? The appeal (potential or realized, intentional or unwitting) to pedophiles.

My point in discussing any objections I might have isn't to condemn the work (or else I'd just not read it and not bother posting here), but to discuss the very misplaced controversy surrounding the comic as well as the odd combination of seemingly sexualized content (which really is entirely in the eye of the beholder) in combination with a very good story that seems to be at odds with some of the imagery.
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