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Old 2007-06-27, 13:13   Link #361
Hayami
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Originally Posted by Kyuusai View Post
All "perverse" has to mean is "willingly counter to the norm". For the record, though I didn't intend "perverse" in its more insulting aspects, yes, I do think sexual attention toward children is grievously wrong. Being responsible for children's wellbeing can make a person feel that way even if they didn't believe so before (and I always have believed so, by avenue of my own rational, logical observation and judgement).

On the other hand, I'm not out for a witch hunt. I love children, and I think enjoying cute (NON-sexualized) imagery of children is perfectly normal. One admiration I have for Japanese culture is the free expression of paternal love, admiration, and infatuation with children, and a male appreciation of (for lack of a better word) cuteness, which just isn't done in the US. However, I have to deal with the soccer-moms who ARE out on a witch hunt and might very well accuse me when I've done nothing wrong, the pedophiles who give them fuel for their fire, and those who produce mainstream works that intentionally pander to pedophiles and make things far more complicated.

If you just thing images of children are pleasant to look at, congratulations, you have human instinct. If you find them to be sexually pleasing, you need counseling, and the sooner the better. Don't get me wrong, you don't incur any wrath from me if you aren't actually harming children, but I won't sugar coat it and say it's OK to feel that way. Though you certainly have the freedom to discuss it (as you well should), that doesn't make it a valid condition. This isn't a thread to debate pedophilia, though. As long as we properly understand where every one stands, I think we can discuss the work properly here.
Do you think it's impossible that someone is sexually attracted only to young (looking) anime characters and not to real children?

Are you saying that all loli hentai fans "need counseling, and the sooner the better"? What's about people who enjoy rape/humiliation hentai along with other genres?

( No, I don't intend to debate pedophilia. )
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Old 2007-06-27, 13:22   Link #362
Thany
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Originally Posted by Kyuusai View Post
Nudity itself doesn't bother me. Unnecessarily sexualized imagery bothers me, but the issue here is sexualized imagery of children (fictional and drawn, of course).
If you don't like it, don't read it
After all the manga itself doesn't seem to be suitable for the peoples like you (I guess you're probably part of the ANN crowd that made the license dropped )
No, seriously, if you can't bear the nudity, nobody's obligating you to read it, just delete your scanlation and forget about this thread so you don't have to ear about/see any suggestive shot of Rin from that manga or fanart pics :P
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Old 2007-06-27, 13:29   Link #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayami View Post
Do you think it's impossible that someone is sexually attracted only to young (looking) anime characters and not to real children?

Are you saying that all loli hentai fans "need counseling, and the sooner the better"? What's about people who enjoy rape/humiliation hentai along with other genres?

( No, I don't intend to debate pedophilia. )
Considering how many very real, very adult women are short with youthful features and no figure, there is a huge difference between being attracted to youthful looks and being a pedophile.

Being sexually aroused by a representation of a child and not a real child is still something very, very concerning.

The particular enjoyment of rape or humiliation pornography is also very concerning, but not related, except that interest in both it and sexual interest in children (or representations thereof) can stem from personal issues involving power or control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thany View Post
If you don't like it, don't read it
After all the manga itself doesn't seem to be suitable for the peoples like you (I guess you're probably part of the ANN crowd that made the license dropped )
No, seriously, if you can't bear the nudity, nobody's obligating you to read it, just delete your scanlation and forget about this thread so you don't have to ear about/see any suggestive shot of Rin from that manga or fanart pics :P
You're either missing my point entirely, or dismissing me because you don't want it discussed by people who don't agree with you entirely (I do agree with you in part). Either is fine. You're free to... not read my posts.
Although if you're seriously saying I'm part of the ANN crowd that caused it to be dropped, I guess you haven't been reading my posts!
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Old 2007-06-27, 13:34   Link #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuusai
Although if you're seriously saying I'm part of the ANN crowd that caused it to be dropped, I guess you haven't been reading my posts!
All your post are about how innapropriate the nudity is, exactly what the ANN crows thinks

Either way, I think you should create your own topic on your find in psychology about how reading manga makes you into a pedonecrozoophile murderer, because this isn't really what the topic of this thread is about

Speaking of funny stuffs (and to stay on topic ), there's something in the last chapters released that I found funny:
Spoiler for chapter23:
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Old 2007-06-27, 14:02   Link #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thany View Post
All your post are about how innapropriate the nudity is, exactly what the ANN crows thinks

Either way, I think you should create your own topic on your find in psychology about how reading manga makes you into a pedonecrozoophile murderer, because this isn't really what the topic of this thread is about
Just so this is clear to any one else with knee-jerk reactions to my posts, my points are...
- That the ANN crowd (among others) had many objections to this book that were not solely comprised of the imagery (when much of the imagery itself had not been taken in context by the ANN crowd), that many potential objections were speculated on, and that the majority of those objections were not valid. I was adding my voice to the very small group that didn't fall into the "it's evil lolicon paraphenallia" or the "I take offense at social mores or I just want domestically printed lolicon-oriented manga" groups, but instead took a more balanced approach and actually attempted to judge it by its content without oversimplifying it.
- That the story has been far deeper, tragic, and more aligned with the moral mainstream than has been commonly interpreted, and that it very oddly seems to contradict some of its incidental imagery, as that imagery is interpreted according to the seeming majority. The whys are still partly in question.

As I said, if I were dismissing this as borderline pornography, discussing lolicon itself, or simply making an argument against semi-pornagraphic content (which I do not think this is despite my reservations and objections to some of the imagery), then I would not be discussing it here.
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Old 2007-06-27, 14:08   Link #366
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I'm sorry, but I still don't see any difference between you and the ANN crowd, no offense intended, you just try to be tamer, but the result is the same, you're the part of 'omg loli nudity! DIES!!!', so please stop trying to sound like you're not like them, because you are, even if you don't like it, at least 25% like them, which is enough for me to believe you're part of the reason why this series got dropped.
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Old 2007-06-27, 14:15   Link #367
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Originally Posted by Thany View Post
I'm sorry, but I still don't see any difference between you and the ANN crowd, no offense intended, you just try to be tamer, but the result is the same, you're the part of 'omg loli nudity! DIES!!!', so please stop trying to sound like you're not like them, because you are, even if you don't like it, at least 25% like them, which is enough for me to believe you're part of the reason why this series got dropped.
No, I'm part of the "Hm, how should we interpret this imagery in context of the larger work and its intent?" crowd. As many times as I've had to defend "Totoro" from people making accusations against it for its bath scene, and as aggravated as I was with the ANN analytically-void groupthink, this is pretty funny.

If you want to believe I'm part of the bogeyman syndicate, go ahead. Meanwhile, I'll discuss things you assume I'm not, and we can stop taking up space on this thread with "Yes, you are" and "No, I'm not".
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Old 2007-06-27, 14:21   Link #368
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Originally Posted by Kyuusai View Post
No, I'm part of the "Hm, how should we interpret this imagery in context of the larger work and its intent?" crowd.
Well fanservice is fanservice, there's no need to try to interpret it, it's there because it's well known that this genre of fanservice is rare in mangas therefore may help raise the manga's popularity given its prime readers.
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Old 2007-06-27, 14:33   Link #369
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Originally Posted by Thany View Post
Well fanservice is fanservice, there's no need to try to interpret it, it's there because it's well known that this genre of fanservice is rare in mangas therefore may help raise the manga's popularity given its prime readers.
A mecha shining in the sun is fanservice, too, but it's not intended to pander sexually. I haven't seen much of Ichigo Marshmallow, but I never interpreted what I've seen of its fanservice depictions of children to be sexual at all.

It's clear that many people are reading this because of they like lolicon. However, I think that considering the context of the story and the author's comments, to dismiss it so simply as "just fanservice, plain and simple" (and implying sexualized fanservice) is far over simplifying the issue--whether or not in each example it actually is sexualized fanservice, since some of the pictures causing outrage were NOT. It's that sort of oversimplification that caused the ANN community reaction in the first place (the only difference being whether or not one is offended by lolicon).
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Old 2007-06-27, 14:36   Link #370
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Uh... Naked kids are supposed to be "fanservice"?

I mean, personally, I'm okay with the naked kids, precisely because it's not fanservice to me. I won't claim I wasn't a bit shocked (in a neutral way) at first, but it quickly wore off. Now I see them with about as much excitement as I see naked animals.

I don't see the pictures as sexualised imagery. To me, they're just a medium to show the... I can't find the right word... the weirdness that are Kuro and Rin's lives and personalities.

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2007-06-28 at 16:01.
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Old 2007-06-27, 17:48   Link #371
Vexx
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Thany, the only thing you accomplish with that sort of black'n'white stance is to end up standing all by yourself. Opinions are on a spectrum, not two boxes. Kyuusei sees the value of the story but wonders why the odd bits of sexualized imagery which seems incongruous with the core story. You're basically telling people to shut up and go away who are interested in the story. Interpretation is inherently part of reading any story so telling people there's no need to interpret ... well that's a meaningless directive. You're being as knee-jerk as the ANN crowd when the KnJ appreciation tent has room for a variety of interests.

People complained about Kanon having H-scenes that detracted from the core story as well. There's nothing wrong with wondering why a scene is written the way it is and trying to interpret it.

So why are some of the more sexualized moments in KnJ there?
I don't think the imagery in the story is incongruous (though some of the eyecatches between chapters seem targeted to lolicon). Authors get competing pressures from their publishers and marketeers and their own personal goals. To some extent, the imagery is there because the author WANTS to get your attention that this may be dangerous territory. In KnJ, I'm betting that the author is trying to push the envelope and tell a really interesting story in the vein of its ancestor "Lolita" but still toss in the occasional image that will pump up sales with a particular money-spending demographic ("lolicon" isn't precisely the word but whatever) and make the bean-counters happy. The tension of the potential is part of what makes the story interesting.

From what I'm gathering on other channels, that demographic is expressing some dismay at KnJ's story because it *isn't* catering to their fantasies. Rather, its telling a deeper story with more complicated characters and I *think* the underlying problem is that the teacher Aoki isn't fitting their "insert me into this story as this character" needs, so there's no character they can easily relate to personally. So far, I relate to Aoki because I work/volunteer/teach teens -- how to deal with a sexually aggressive youngster is something teachers and coaches need to know how to handle and solve without going down in flames *or* dashing the youngster's feelings to despair (since such things are often a "cry for help").

@Hayumi: being attracted to 'anime fantasy loli' is really no different than being attracted to 'catgirls' or 'gynoids' or vampires or any fictional character type. Its a pleasant fantasy, period. I'm a bit of a xenophile - I find the exotic and alien interesting.

Last edited by Vexx; 2007-06-27 at 18:39.
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Old 2007-06-27, 18:25   Link #372
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Word. Kyuusai and I share the same sentiments towards some scenes in the manga... but we don't necessarily condemn it to a fiery hell, like how some certain witch-hunters did in the past. The, err, "kinky" scenes are exactly how Vexx puts it: they aim grab your attention. Whether you're moderately surprised, shocked or even tittilated by the said kinky scenes, they WILL grab your attention one way or another.

And I do notice that the arguments and counter-arguments are slowly reaching the personal level... a few short steps to flaming. When debating, kindly target the words in the post, and please don't presume to infer the personality or character of the poster. Name-calling, stereotyping and dealing in absolutes are pretty much flame-bait
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Old 2007-06-27, 19:13   Link #373
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Actually, I think you missed that my questions were rhetorical. I can see contrary evidence and alternate possibilities, but despite them cannot come to any other conclusion that the manga is targeted toward lolicons. The author comments in her blog that she believes the comic has been dropped due to a scene depicting a child and adult bathing together, so we can assume that if she's telling the truth then she saw the entirety of the rest of the content as less objectionable--at least in the context of her story. Did she really see it as non-sexual, or at least not objectionable in its place in the story, which despite how others are trying to interpret it (for whatever reasons) is antithetical to pedophile fantasy? I do recall a quote from her saying that she wanted to push the boundaries of what could be done in a mainstream magazine, but what did she mean: the images, the subject matter, or just something non-typical of the genre in its social commentary? There is the slim possibility she intended it to appeal to the lolicon demographic in hopes they would see the story and gain perspective. There is also the possibility that the author has some issues herself, and the her story and drawings are an outlet for her, whether unwitting or not. Whether any of them are likely or not, they are possibilities that should be considered so the work can be interpreted properly. For the time being, I've had to conclude that it simply is lolicon material, though.
Even though I do understand what you mean, I think you take the aspect of the drawings/situations mismatching the content far too seriously. What Kaoru Watashiya wanted to do in the first place is to draw a "cute" story with a cute trio of bishoujo characters for a men's magazine. Watashiya started out as a Shoujo Manga author, moved later to 4-koma gag manga and then to young men's comics. She didn't start Kojika out of personal issues but because she had the chance to draw something for Comic High magazine. She took this chance and wanted to do something other than just a simple gag manga. I take this out of the very insightful interview with her from the Tora no Ana homepage. That's also the source of the quote were she says she wanted to "challenge the boundaries of a mainstream magazine" while strictly maintaining that "it's not an eromanga". What she means here is how far she can go with the "forbidden love" aspect between a teacher and a child.
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Old 2007-06-27, 19:38   Link #374
Vexx
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That matches the feeling I've also gotten from reading the mangaka's interviews and posts on the topic. Thanks for the interview link.

I think she's doing what she intended if she makes her bell curve-centered audience a *little* uncomfortable and forces them to examine their personal "unwritten rules"
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Old 2007-06-27, 19:50   Link #375
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Old 2007-06-27, 20:47   Link #376
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O_O;

Oooookay... Now THAT made me go "wtf!?" irl.

If that doesn't cater to otaku fantasies (other than straight out porn) I don't know what does.
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Old 2007-06-27, 20:51   Link #377
Vexx
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Makube2: Wanna provide some context there before you strike a match? That's another scene that can be totally misread without it. What's the reference volume and page?
More importantly, what point are you trying to make...? (followup: that scene isn't in volumes 1-3.... 4 isn't due out til august... where did it come from?)
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Old 2007-06-27, 21:02   Link #378
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Hm... It's probably like the "stuck-in-the-storage-room" scene, or the "falling-from-tree" scene. But now I'm *really* interested to know how that awkward a situation can be rationalized within reason.
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Old 2007-06-27, 21:09   Link #379
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Chapter 27. Remember that KnJ is serialise in the monthly Comic High!.

Basically she wants to give Aoki a reward for saying he'll stick by her side no matter what.
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Old 2007-06-27, 21:12   Link #380
Vexx
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It would have been nice to provide the lead up to that and his response, eh? That's another one of those out-of-context things soccer-moms would go bananas about. Out of curiosity, do you have the leadup and follow on page? ((Rin is even more problematic and aggressive than I imagined she'd get, yeesh -- Aoki seems doomed to a nervous breakdown))
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