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Old 2008-08-30, 09:22   Link #1041
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jigenbakuda View Post
But please remember that this is an acceptable outcome from your position as a westerner. This story is japanese and adheres to japanese values. So in japan where being a pedo is not "heavily" stigmatized ...is that a real word?...(I believe most of the conformity in child abuse/ pedo worthy stuff is coming from america, I don't think its from the japanese), what needs to happens to a "pedo" in this story to make it "acceptable", may be different. (although violence is just as important to japanese as westerners, lol, this could end dragon ball Z style, lol)

Also why must the story end happily (or morally correct). This whole story could be a tragedy. It could end with reiji marrying rin against her will and making love to her before her 16th birthday, and mimi cutting her wrists because she couldn't have her true love reiji. We have no idea how the story will end up.

Aoki is just as bad as reiji "technically. Rin has seen both of their dicks (at the very least the print of aoki's dick) Aoki kissed rin (willing or not), Aoki touched rin's breasts (or lack thereof...). Now regardless of aoki's intentions, these things happened. Is he really that much better than reiji? Or is intent more important than actions? For example is it okay to touch rin's breats if you think she is a male. Is it okay to have sex with a 15 year old girl if she tells you she is 18?
We were talking about why KnJ wasn't acceptable to Western audiences.
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Old 2008-08-30, 11:26   Link #1042
jigenbakuda
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Quote:
We were talking about why KnJ wasn't acceptable to Western audiences.
No you guys were not...
I went back and read. At first you are talking about how KnJ would probably not get green lighted in europe either, because even though you (europe) are more liberal, you are not pedos (in reference to europe).

Then the argument is brought up that watching a said subject does not produce a person like on the said subject. ( for example, watching KnJ does not produces pedos). You guys argue about that for a while.

Then the point was made that in america there are shows that graphically describe what pedos do. But an animated show about a similar topic (but no violence) is condemned. And then it was discussed that perhaps the lack of violence is what is making the show not get green lighted. I believe the point of the poster was, perhaps if the "pedo" in the story was killed or punished, then the story would be okay for green-lighting.

I think that YOU may have touched a little on why you thought KnJ was not acceptable for a western audience (although it was not explicitly stated), but the conversation you guys were in was never about that ("we were talking about..."). You talked about what watashiya MUST do to make it acceptable. My comment was saying that the story is not for western audiences, if it was in the beginning ,it certainly isn't now. So watashiya does not need to do anything to make is acceptable to anyone... its already acceptable... to the target audience, if it wasn't it wouldn't be comic high's flag ship story (at least I think KnJ is). I was the one to introduce the concept of catering to western audiences. Before then, it was not mentioned.
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Old 2008-08-30, 13:32   Link #1043
Anh_Minh
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Vexx made the comparison with what the US tolerates, which is, more or less, what western audiences tolerate. So, yeah, when I said that more violence would make it palatable, I was still talking about western audiences.
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Old 2008-08-31, 11:45   Link #1044
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jigenbakuda View Post
But please remember that this is an acceptable outcome from your position as a westerner. This story is japanese and adheres to japanese values. So in japan where being a pedo is not "heavily" stigmatized ...is that a real word?...(I believe most of the conformity in child abuse/ pedo worthy stuff is coming from america, I don't think its from the japanese), what needs to happens to a "pedo" in this story to make it "acceptable", may be different. (although violence is just as important to japanese as westerners, lol, this could end dragon ball Z style, lol)
...
Aoki is just as bad as reiji "technically. Rin has seen both of their dicks (at the very least the print of aoki's dick) Aoki kissed rin (willing or not), Aoki touched rin's breasts (or lack thereof...). Now regardless of aoki's intentions, these things happened. Is he really that much better than reiji? Or is intent more important than actions? For example is it okay to touch rin's breats if you think she is a male. Is it okay to have sex with a 15 year old girl if she tells you she is 18?
Anh Minh's "position as a westerner"???? Your location says Jacksonville, FA. ....

We actually *were* discussing things Western in that I was pointing out how inconsistent the US was to let things like what we see on live-action CSI and Law&Order just slide by (not to mention advertisers for cosmetics) while a *drawn* story with much more well-developed characters with some depth and complexity to their presentation gets stomped into the ground by zealots and timid hypocrite publishers.

Don't make a sweeping assessment of Japan. First, they differentiate between interest in what the west might call "lolita" (13-16ish) and pedophilia (<12). Also, attitudes vary considerably in the public sector. And again, interest in drawn stories or literature versus real life are two totally different animals. Interest in one doesn't predict interest in the other.

Comparing Aoki's clumsy errors with Reiji's plotting doesn't really pass GO either. Intent makes a critical difference though Aoki may beat himself up anyway.
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Old 2008-08-31, 13:58   Link #1045
jigenbakuda
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jigen said
Quote:
But please remember that this is an acceptable outcome from your position as a westerner.
Then Vexx said
Quote:
Anh Minh's "position as a westerner"???? Your location says Jacksonville, FA. ....
What does anything I said have to do with me being a westerner? You act as if being a westerner is condescending and I insulted him, but forgot I was western too... I have not even stated my opinion on any of the matters in the recent discussion. I simply suggested that he look outside the box and gave some suggestions of how the story could possibly end in a non-happy way.

I just pointed out his views on this subject were a product of his culture and that japan has a different culture. So different things are acceptable and unacceptable in japanese culture. I was trying to illustrate that what he sees as unacceptable (needing the pedo to be killed to make it acceptable) from his culture may not have been "unacceptable" in another culture. I guess I failed...

Wrong or not, offtopic or not, that was my intention.

Vexx said
Quote:
We actually *were* discussing things Western...
I will not disagree that you were talking about western things. I also don't believe I said that I did disagree either...
Anh_Minh said
Quote:
We were talking about why KnJ wasn't acceptable to Western audiences.
Then I said "no you were not". Because the reasons for KnJ being unacceptable to western audiences was not brought up in your conversation. You said it was not accepted by western audiences, but you never said why...

I apologize, I did indeed make a sweeping assessment of japan.

Although reiji has plotted, he has done nothing more than aoki. Now if we want to count up the pedo points, reiji's plotting is scary... but what has he done physically to rin that is worse than anything aoki accidentally / clumsily did? Aoki has done about the same, intentional or not. I fully agree that aoki's intent makes him a lot more likable of a guy, but that is not to say that his actions were not the same. Accidentally cut a guys throat because some glass in your hand slipped, and purposely assassinate a man, two different things... accidental killing and murder 1, but the same thing has occurred no matter the intention, someone has died...

But hey what am I saying. This is a world of fiction, adhering only to the rules watashiya sees fit.

Jigen's random tangent:
I wish we could have this much discussion every month about the chapters... Naruto's 17 page chapters get 5 pages of talk on Animesuki and speculation, KnJ is lucky to get 2 a month
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Old 2008-08-31, 15:38   Link #1046
Anh_Minh
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Aoki hasn't been forcing his attentions on Rin while she was asleep.


And talking about "what a series lack to be acceptable" and "why it isn't acceptable" are pretty much the same things. Sure, there were some things left unsaid in our conversation, as in all conversations. You have to be able to get the context a bit.
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Old 2008-09-06, 19:05   Link #1047
Lordshade
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Um, since that cover has caused quite a debate here, I thought it might be a good idea to show that that is not the official cover, it is likely used somewhere else...

Official cover, courtesy of www.amazon.co.jp:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/i...465392&s=books

Not quite as racy...
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Old 2008-09-22, 11:57   Link #1048
KaneDragon
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42 is out, 41 apparently having been skipped...


Rin is such a player. Poor Kuro.

The Reiji situation is still up in the air, but at least Rin's on her best behavior this chapter.
Spoiler for also:
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Old 2008-09-22, 12:20   Link #1049
sumowow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneDragon View Post
42 is out, 41 apparently having been skipped...


Rin is such a player. Poor Kuro.

The Reiji situation is still up in the air, but at least Rin's on her best behavior this chapter.
Spoiler for also:
I still dont understand how they can skip an entire chapter. Especially since its a 1 a month thing.: Suspicious

Spoiler:
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Old 2008-09-22, 14:38   Link #1050
KaneDragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sumowow View Post
I still dont understand how they can skip an entire chapter. Especially since its a 1 a month thing.: Suspicious
Like, misnumbering, or counting an omake chapter (to be included in the volume compilation) as the missing number... School Rumble skipped a number at least once.
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Old 2008-09-22, 15:16   Link #1051
sumowow
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Originally Posted by KaneDragon View Post
Like, misnumbering, or counting an omake chapter (to be included in the volume compilation) as the missing number... School Rumble skipped a number at least once.
Yea, i guess so. Saha said he's adding the extra chapter with the latest volume as chapter 41. So i guess that would explain it.
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Old 2008-09-23, 20:49   Link #1052
ChainLegacy
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The ending of this chapter seemed quite foreboding to me. I don't think Rin deleting Aoki's number is a sign of good things to come, but perhaps I'm analyzing that bit incorrectly.
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Old 2008-09-26, 14:39   Link #1053
jigenbakuda
Kazumi sure is cute...
 
 
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Well this was an interesting chapter... not exactly sure what just happened... I really felt like everything was wrapping up... it saddens me. But at the same time, its the perfect way to kick off a new arc, because we all know rin is going against her feelings... and everyone knows those feelings will be shown. Her feelings have to be realized in some way or form. Although she has love for both reiji and aoki, her love for aoki is of the romantic nature.. no way watashiya will stop now when she never got either character to explore their love. Rin (child or not) wants her love to be returned, she wants that so bad, and I just can't see the series ending without at least one scene of aoki and rin being love love and romantic... I just can't believe watashiya would do that to her fans...

Oh it was funny seeing kuro-chan cream in her pants after rin was done with her, lol.

And I was really expecting the un-needed loli rin rapes usa-chan scene, lol
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Old 2008-09-26, 16:05   Link #1054
mg1942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inanimated_object View Post
@ sumowow
Spoiler for Cover?:
Are they having a high life or what!?
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Old 2008-09-27, 00:38   Link #1055
Dark Wing
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wait they skipped a whole chapter? How can they do that?
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Old 2008-10-07, 02:29   Link #1056
Kaioshin Sama
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Hahaha, I just got permabanned from another forum over the fact that I blogged about KnJ for a little while and got labelled a pedo as a result. In fact people are probably reading this right now since this is the kind of group that needs their daily "lulz". Hey, how you doing folks, is this important to you? Can I help in any significant way to fulfill your lulz quota? If so let me know.

Yes, by far the best thing about this manga series existence is how uptight people pretend to get over it and how you can induce faux outrage just by mentioning it. Again, it is very very important that you do not read or discuss Kodomo No Jikan. It is indeed every bit the measure of a person as a human being. I know because the internet told me so.

Just thought I'd add that little treat in. You'd think the controversy over this one had died down, but nope, it's still the Grand Theft Auto of anime/manga series. The focal point for everything that is apparently wrong about anime/manga. Loving it. Now all it needs is it's own Jack Thompson equivalent to start suing everyone.

Truth be told, I haven't read a chapter in ages. I think the whole shock factor has kind of worn off. Lolita worked as a character study because it was only about 350 pages and dealt with the subject matter very seriously. Kodomo No Jikan however has pretty much run it's course I think. It probably wouldn't hurt for this to be the last volume. Once it's over, the very important pass time of pretending to get really outraged over lolicon will lose it's main target too, which would be a delightful killjoy for all of those types who like to have something they want to try and hold up over another. Personally I think a higher moral standard is better achieved through a different course of action (As in through one's own actions as opposed to denouncing others for whatever very important subject one can come up with), but then again this is the internet so so be it.

Edit: Not crying, adding a point, there's a difference here. Just thought I'd add that in since somebody seemed to have been mistaken.

Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2008-10-07 at 20:08.
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Old 2008-10-08, 00:19   Link #1057
mg1942
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I just read the latest chapter. I have a feeling that this manga is gonna end soon.
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Old 2008-10-10, 23:43   Link #1058
animeboy12
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I think think it's about to end soon

Anyway I think the reason why stuff why western material is allowed to be a message violent is because it's either objective or teaching good morals. As violent as CSI is, in the end the villain is caught. Stuff like The Punisher, Spawn, or Sin city are just ridiculously violent but it the end, the villain gets what coming.

Now usually in the news any adult in a romantic relationship with a child is viewed a immoral, a villain. Now here you have a story were the "villain" isn't getting justice so people think that the anime is supporting a adult-child. Now I know rin and Aoki don't have a romantic relation but the story doesn't do much to confirm that early in the story
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Old 2008-10-11, 02:29   Link #1059
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Hahaha, I just got permabanned from another forum over the fact that I blogged about KnJ for a little while and got labelled a pedo as a result. In fact people are probably reading this right now since this is the kind of group that needs their daily "lulz". Hey, how you doing folks, is this important to you? Can I help in any significant way to fulfill your lulz quota? If so let me know.
....
Edit: Not crying, adding a point, there's a difference here. Just thought I'd add that in since somebody seemed to have been mistaken.
Basically, you might almost consider this title a measure of faux-righteous cluelessness on their part. The scary kind that lacks critical thinking skills.
I'm sure they sit and watch all the Law&Order, CSI, Criminal Minds "lets see how pedo-rific we can get" shows.. where often the criminal does NOT get caught. Here we have a story about a lot of people trying to do the RIGHT thing and helping people cope.... and it gets the witchburning treatment.

go 'fig.
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Old 2008-10-11, 05:36   Link #1060
Kaioshin Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Basically, you might almost consider this title a measure of faux-righteous cluelessness on their part. The scary kind that lacks critical thinking skills.
I'm sure they sit and watch all the Law&Order, CSI, Criminal Minds "lets see how pedo-rific we can get" shows.. where often the criminal does NOT get caught. Here we have a story about a lot of people trying to do the RIGHT thing and helping people cope.... and it gets the witchburning treatment.

go 'fig.
Well, while I won't deny that Kodomo No Jikan basically milks the lolicon cow for all it's worth, I still have a hard time how people can believe it is socially harmful in any way. Forms of media that are deemed harmful or exploitative are generally the kind that condone or illcit the reader/viewer/player whatever to go out and do the kinds of things that are clearly wrong and against the law.

Yes Kodomo No Jikan turns the whole lolicon thing into a gag and plays it for laughs, but at the end of the day is it saying to go out and break the law or take advantage of an innocent? Does it ever claim that such a thing is socially acceptable? No quite the opposite in fact. And considering it sees legal distribution on the regular graphic novel market in Japan (and has had a televised animated series adaptation and will see another one shortly) and isn't some underground doujin, I don't see how anyone can call it socially harmful in any significant way unless they're one of those bandwagon types. The usual reader discretion applies, but it's honestly no more traumatizing a read than Ode To Kirohito which features one character who.....well I'll let people read that particular story for themselves. Or how about we turn on the good old HBO where every show has to have pointless nudity and as much violence and swearing as possible per episode. Perfectly legal and deemed socially acceptable for ages 18+ .

The point I'm trying to make is that the definition in the Charter (Canada) and the Constitution (U.S.A) on where freedom of expression in a form of media gets revoked is pretty obvious and I think it's safe to say that KnJ is well before it.

And the only thing I know about CSI is that David Caruso only has one talking voice that also happens to sound a lot like Columbo's.
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