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Old 2004-03-09, 21:50   Link #221
rEkKaShInObI
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Neji either doesnt know or uses any nin or genjutsu, its rare that he will though. just thought i'd say that.
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Old 2004-03-09, 23:59   Link #222
raikage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vega98767
I mean more of Gaaras Chakra and that it doesn't require a massive force of chakra to summon a wall of sand but rather a tiny amount, the same amount of chakra it takes for neji to use his Byakukan (spelling?) probably less. For gaara its almost like blinking it takes that much effort to move his sand and create his walls. And no i had no proof that Neji is afraid of Gaara but im just assuming because Neji is a brat. But i don't care how big of a Neji fan you are, it takes Sasuke major training with one of the greatest Ninjas in the series, Kakashi, to penetrate Gaaras defense with the Chidori and to actually make Gaara bleed and you think that Nejis training on his own would allow him to defeat Gaara? And when someone (Lee) opens up the gates (which Kakashi states is something that hard work alone can not achieve) and then pulverizes Gaara and Gaara still beats Lee you still think what Neji has alone could defeat Gaara? Thats a pretty bold statement if you do. Only Sasuke could beat Gaara, no one else out of the Genins. Neji has about as good a chance as Lee did with his weights off. Oh and i just assumed Neji was scared because he should know that he could not beat Gaara. And if he could beat Gaara then why didn't Gai and Kakashi go look for Neji to go after Gaara? Oh thats right because he wasted ALL his chakra on Naruto. I doubt even with fox demon chakra Naruto wouldn't stand a chance against Gaara and if Neji wasted all his chakra on Naruto then how could he last against Gaara?
You're just assuming because Neji is a brat...sorry, dude, but that makes NO sense at all.

Most people think Lee w/o the weights had a pretty good chance against Gaara.

If Neji, like Sasuke, trained for a month SPECIFICALLY to fight a particular opponent, he might have a pretty good shot, too.

So, because Neji used all his chakra against Naruto, he will never stand a chance agianst Gaara? Maybe I'm just not following your thinking here.

To Hunter: Neji cannot destroy a fireball simply by running chakra through it, but then again we don't know if there is still chakra used in the jutsu after it is released (after it's blown through the mouth). In the case of a tsunami, the chakra may just be used to form and direct the water, but after the water is set in motion chakra is no longer present (like throwing a baseball; after you throw it your hand has no more control over the ball/hitting you will not stop the ball from flying).

It's stated that the Kagebunshin creates real bodies; and Neji can still disrupt the chakra conduits within those bodies.

Waaaaay early on in the series, when Naruto drinks the spoiled milk, all of his clones have stomachaches and (presumably) diarrhea. This implies that the clones have fully-functional bodies, internal organs, and chakra channels running throughout the body.

As for Gaara's sand not having any chakra, I think there is; it's just someone else's. It maintains its shape, rather than collapsing into a big mound of sand at Gaara's feet.
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Old 2004-03-10, 00:29   Link #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raikage
and chakra channels running throughout the body.

of course they do, otherwise Harem no Jutsu wouldn't be possible.
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Old 2004-03-10, 01:43   Link #224
Shadamehr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rEkKaShInObI
Neji either doesnt know or uses any nin or genjutsu, its rare that he will though. just thought i'd say that.
Yeah, Neji's a moron. Everybody he fights always thinks to themselves "close combat is no good, I'll just sit back and fight from a distance." Learning a few fireball jutsus like Sasuke or somethin would help round out his game a lot.
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Old 2004-03-10, 08:39   Link #225
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Omg man, do some of you guys realise how far gone you are? Man, debating naruto more seriously then many people do world hunger or aids :S . Talking about clones having diahrea :S . The word fanboy would be an insult to all fanboys . I honestly have no word for this kind of geekness
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Old 2004-03-10, 09:32   Link #226
Sethi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
But Neji can't destroy a Kage bunshin for example by putting chakra in, or a water wave or a fire ball or etc.
All the jutsu are created thank to the chakra, but all of them haven't chakra inside (or around or whatever).
That i agree Neji can only destroy things that are made of chakra i never stated otherwise either, but like raikage said after the creating of fireballs and tsunami's most probably the chakra is just used to give them form and direction and then it's released, however Gaara's sand is permanently around him and always creating shields and stuff like that i don't think the sand would be able to do that without having any kind of chakra in it in which case Neji can destroy it i think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vega98767
I mean more of Gaaras Chakra and that it doesn't require a massive force of chakra to summon a wall of sand but rather a tiny amount, the same amount of chakra it takes for neji to use his Byakukan (spelling?) probably less. For gaara its almost like blinking it takes that much effort to move his sand and create his walls. And no i had no proof that Neji is afraid of Gaara but im just assuming because Neji is a brat. But i don't care how big of a Neji fan you are, it takes Sasuke major training with one of the greatest Ninjas in the series, Kakashi, to penetrate Gaaras defense with the Chidori and to actually make Gaara bleed and you think that Nejis training on his own would allow him to defeat Gaara? And when someone (Lee) opens up the gates (which Kakashi states is something that hard work alone can not achieve) and then pulverizes Gaara and Gaara still beats Lee you still think what Neji has alone could defeat Gaara? Thats a pretty bold statement if you do. Only Sasuke could beat Gaara, no one else out of the Genins. Neji has about as good a chance as Lee did with his weights off. Oh and i just assumed Neji was scared because he should know that he could not beat Gaara. And if he could beat Gaara then why didn't Gai and Kakashi go look for Neji to go after Gaara? Oh thats right because he wasted ALL his chakra on Naruto. I doubt even with fox demon chakra Naruto wouldn't stand a chance against Gaara and if Neji wasted all his chakra on Naruto then how could he last against Gaara?
First off the shield of sand isn't made by Gaara at all so he doesn't use is own chakra, we saw in the Lee match that he didn't even saw the attacks however the sand still defended him. Also you're just assuming Neji is afraid of Gaara because he is a brat??? well that's a good reason all right.
I'm not that big of a Neji fan as you are of Lee, hmmm actually i'm not a Neji fan at all, i'm just stating what i think about the situations, just because i don't like a character doesn't mean i have to say he's going to lose against everyone.
If some of the reasons i gave about Neji chakra could pass Gaara sand or he could destroy it with Jyuuken then he would have a big chance to defeat Gaara(Normal Gaara) if that's a bolt statement then yours about Sasuke being the only Genin able to do so is even a bigger statement, and saying that Kyubi Naruto wouldn't stand a chance against Gaara is the biggest statement of them all especially since:
Spoiler:
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Old 2004-03-10, 09:39   Link #227
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raikage
It's stated that the Kagebunshin creates real bodies; and Neji can still disrupt the chakra conduits within those bodies.

Waaaaay early on in the series, when Naruto drinks the spoiled milk, all of his clones have stomachaches and (presumably) diarrhea. This implies that the clones have fully-functional bodies, internal organs, and chakra channels running throughout the body.
You miss my point, indeed they have a chakra intern system, the clones have a real body.
But if Neji can stop their flow of chakra (like on every real body), he can't destruct them like that.
As he wouldn't destroy a Chidori just by putting chakra into it because it would be completely useless.
Or like he couldn't break
Spoiler:


Quote:
As for Gaara's sand not having any chakra, I think there is; it's just someone else's. It maintains its shape, rather than collapsing into a big mound of sand at Gaara's feet.
Well I don't see the things like that, the amount of chakra needed to control each sand grain is just too colossal, the chakra just doesn't leave the body like that to put itself in any element to control it.
It's more like a spell in most of the cases, except for the jutsu using the chakra directly as a weapon.
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Old 2004-03-10, 10:33   Link #228
Sethi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
Well I don't see the things like that, the amount of chakra needed to control each sand grain is just too colossal, the chakra just doesn't leave the body like that to put itself in any element to control it.
It's more like a spell in most of the cases, except for the jutsu using the chakra directly as a weapon.
You are forgetting that Gaara has Shukaku inside of him so for all we know it can be his Chakra controling the Sand that protects Gaara, we have several hints at this because like i said before Gaara doesn't even see the attacks however the sand defends him nonetheless, and it all happens automatically regardeless of Gaara's Will.
Besides even if it is a Spell i think it stills needs to use chakra, example:
Spoiler:
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Old 2004-03-10, 10:37   Link #229
vega98767
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First off sethi, I hope you know i argue just to argue and im not a fanatic towards rock lee (ive even stated in the past that Neji could beat rock lee after hearing the sides of the stories). But you actually believe any other Genin could beat Gaara besides Sasuke? Sasuke had to get trained by Kakashi in order to inflict great damage to Gaara. He had to learn how to use Lees speed and to use the Chidori. And i did not read the spoiler so i don't know how powerful Naruto gets with Kyubi (spelling) but with what naruto used in the exam with kyubi i don't think its more powerful than opening the gates. And Lee with the gates open could still not beat gaara. So my argument is if Neji could not beat Naruto with Kyubi then how could he beat Lee with his gates open? Granted Naruto has more stamina but Lee does not know pain when his gates are open. And even with Kyubi i don't think Naruto could do enough at the point in the anime to damage gaara. Granted like the one guy said that if anyone trained like Sasuke did they could beat Gaara but thats the point, thats the reason why Sasuke can beat Gaara and only him because he was trained to. Neji has no experience fighting such a demon and Lee by risking his own life was able to do so much damage to him.

Last edited by vega98767; 2004-03-10 at 10:57.
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Old 2004-03-10, 12:09   Link #230
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethi
You are forgetting that Gaara has Shukaku inside of him so for all we know it can be his Chakra controling the Sand that protects Gaara, we have several hints at this because like i said before Gaara doesn't even see the attacks however the sand defends him nonetheless, and it all happens automatically regardeless of Gaara's Will.
I don't think so, like you said yourself :
Quote:
Spoiler:
The control of the Sand comes from Shukkaku and protects Gaara automatically but it uses Gaara's chakra.
Besides it's not the point, I don't believe that even shukkaku can handle each of the billions of billions of sand grain with his chakra.
He has a control over it because he's the incarnation of the Sand, that's all.

Like I said, the ninjas don't 'launch' their chakra outside their body to manipulate an element, even the best Hyuga who are the absolute masters of the chakra control can't do that.

It's like to say that when the 3rd created his 'mountain' or when the First created his forest there were chakra around all the threes to make them move.
It's not like that, their chakra allow them to have a power over something, not to project their chakra outside their bodies.

Quote:
Besides even if it is a Spell i think it stills needs to use chakra
lol of course but so what?



Vega nobody(?) thinks that Neji can beat Gaara at full power, but you can beat him before he reach this state.
Sasuke could have won against him easily after the first Chidori, Gaara is unable to do anything since what? 20~30 minutes now? More?
A second Chidori in the head and there would be no more Gaara

It's the same with Neji.
Even if I don't think he could do anything against the Sand cocoon, there is no reason that Gaara uses it immediately against him, firstly for the reason why Gaara wanted so bad to crush Sasuke (watch the episode 74 for that ^^)

And secondly because if Neji manages to approach Gaara in close combat and if the sand can't stop the gentle style, the combat is finished immediately.

Oh and besides, I'm not sure that the Ura Renge puts him into a no-pain state, it's not the case with the first gates open and it seems to me that he suffered much when he gave his last blow to Gaara.
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Old 2004-03-10, 15:45   Link #231
Sethi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
The control of the Sand comes from Shukkaku and protects Gaara automatically but it uses Gaara's chakra.
Besides it's not the point, I don't believe that even shukkaku can handle each of the billions of billions of sand grain with his chakra.
He has a control over it because he's the incarnation of the Sand, that's all.
Hmmm didn't you just agreed with me? Even if it's Gaara Chakra controlling the sand then it means the sand needs Chakra to keep it's stability otherwise it would colapse no? which means Neji can use Jyuuken on it.
Also i still i don't think it's Gaara chakra controling Sand Shield, like Kankuro said even without desiring for it the sand protects Gaara which would mean that Shukaku uses Gaara chakra without Gaara wanting it? also when Kankuro saw that Gaara was using Armor of Sand he was worried because that spends his Chakra but the Shield of Sand doesn't.
also a random tought:
Spoiler:

Quote:
Originally Posted by vega98767
So my argument is if Neji could not beat Naruto with Kyubi then how could he beat Lee with his gates open? Granted Naruto has more stamina but Lee does not know pain when his gates are open.
Hmmm think of it this way when Naruto was training he extracted enough Chakra to Summon Gamabunta something only a handful of ninjas thus far can do(and any other Genin in Konoha can only dream of), and when he faced Neji, Naruto himself said that he was more powerful than when he trained so you can imagine the amount of power the boy had at the time, also we don't know that Lee doesn't feel pain when his gates are open, he seemed to feel it at least when he punched Gaara.
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Old 2004-03-10, 16:16   Link #232
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethi
Hmmm didn't you just agreed with me? Even if it's Gaara Chakra controlling the sand then it means the sand needs Chakra to keep it's stability otherwise it would colapse no? which means Neji can use Jyuuken on it.
lol absolutely and completely not ^^
All jutsu needs chakra to be done but all jutsu doesn't use the chakra itself in their utilisation.

You need chakra to make a Bunshin, but there isn't chakra inside a bunshin, and thus Neji can't destroy it with his gentle style.
Garra needs chakra to control the sand (indeed) but that doesn't mean that there is chakra inside or around the sand.

Quote:
Also i still i don't think it's Gaara chakra controling Sand Shield, like Kankuro said even without desiring for it the sand protects Gaara which would mean that Shukaku uses Gaara chakra without Gaara wanting it? also when Kankuro saw that Gaara was using Armor of Sand he was worried because that spends his Chakra but the Shield of Sand doesn't.
Kankuro said that the Armor of Sand consumed the chakra quickly, he never says nor insinuated that the Shield of Sand doesn't use chakra at all.
Besides
Spoiler:
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Old 2004-03-10, 16:25   Link #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
You need chakra to make a Bunshin, but there isn't chakra inside a bunshin, and thus Neji can't destroy it with his gentle style.
Hunter...everyone knows that inside the Bunshins is creamy choclatey goodness!
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Old 2004-03-10, 16:44   Link #234
Sethi
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Originally Posted by Hunter
You need chakra to make a Bunshin, but there isn't chakra inside a bunshin, and thus Neji can't destroy it with his gentle style.
Garra needs chakra to control the sand (indeed) but that doesn't mean that there is chakra inside or around the sand.
A Bunshin is Genjutsu no? so it would be a little hard to hit a illusion, also you say inside a bunshin there isn't chakra however isn't a bunshin in the eyes of a Sharingan user a Flame of Chakra?
So in which way does Gaara uses the Chakra to control the sand if there isn't any Chakra inside or around it? i think most attacks like Nidaime water jutsus use Chakra to manipulate a certain element and then release it like Water wave or Water barrier however Gaara sand is always around him gaining Shapes and when it does protect him or he uses it to attack some Chakra must be in it in order to have that form no?
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Old 2004-03-10, 18:28   Link #235
Maxter
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Neiji looks att Naruto's Kage Bunshin's with his Byakugan and sees that there are just as much chakra concentrated in them as it is in the real Naruto. So Kage Bunshin DOES consist of chakra.
Also, Naruto can do the Harem no Jutsu, right? And if his clones can transform, that would mean they have some kind of working chakra circulation with chakra holes and everything.
Just my thoughts, it's late at night over here, so please be gentle with flaming my spelling and awareness of... Well, anything and everything ^_^
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Old 2004-03-10, 19:08   Link #236
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Maxter... hunter said bunsin , not kage bunshin , there is a very large difference, bunshins r not real body's and can NOT attack u our hurt u , like what was used at the end of the 2nd part of the exam when they where almost at the tower, when naruto fought them all night. THose wher bunshins , and cant hurt u , kage bunshin is what naruto uses and is a real body...

naruto wasnt that powerful against neji, he was sumwhat powerful but when he was against haku.. he was much more powerful from of kyuubi naruto then against neji.. I think he was more powerful as well against oro in the forest. if naruto when like he was against haku.. neji would of standed no chance at all

also sum1 said that he thought that lee had a chance with the wieghts on .... ummmmmm..NOOOO!!! what would make u think that ?
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Old 2004-03-10, 19:35   Link #237
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People like Lee because he gives us a real 'under-dog' impression. He was constantly made fun of when he was young, people never expected any sort of greatness from him, etc.. Psychologically he's a great person to root for, people love under-dogs.
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Old 2004-03-10, 19:57   Link #238
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I think people said "Lee had a chance without the weights"
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Old 2004-03-10, 20:29   Link #239
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhJustSomeRandomGuy
Hunter...everyone knows that inside the Bunshins is creamy choclatey goodness!
lol right, how could I forget that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethi
A Bunshin is Genjutsu no? so it would be a little hard to hit a illusion, also you say inside a bunshin there isn't chakra however isn't a bunshin in the eyes of a Sharingan user a Flame of Chakra?
Because the sharingan can see through genjutsu


Quote:
So in which way does Gaara uses the Chakra to control the sand if there isn't any Chakra inside or around it? i think most attacks like Nidaime water jutsus use Chakra to manipulate a certain element and then release it like Water wave or Water barrier however Gaara sand is always around him gaining Shapes and when it does protect him or he uses it to attack some Chakra must be in it in order to have that form no?
Well no, not necessarily.
I mean, releasing chakra from several part of your body is awfully difficult, the only one who can do that are the master of the gentle style, the best Hyuga.
So the idea that the ninjas can launch their chakra out of their body into things to manipulate them remotely just seems stupid to me...

And once again think about the jutsu of
Spoiler:


Btw Maxter, the Kage Bunshun doesn't consist of chakra, it has chakra inside like any normal body but that's all, the chidori or the Kaiten consist of chakra.
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Old 2004-03-10, 21:11   Link #240
Sethi
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Originally Posted by Hunter
Because the sharingan can see through genjutsu
so you are saying what precisely? that the sharingan sees bunshins has chakra because they are Genjutsu but they aren't made of Chakra?
Quote:
Well no, not necessarily.
I mean, releasing chakra from several part of your body is awfully difficult, the only one who can do that are the master of the gentle style, the best Hyuga.
So the idea that the ninjas can launch their chakra out of their body into things to manipulate them remotely just seems stupid to me...
In which part of my post did i said that Gaara releases chakra from several parts of his body? what i said is that he must control and manipulate the sand with chakra. Also if they don't use chakra to manipulate and use the elements then how can they cast Tsunamis, Fire, Plant life, don't tell me they can create those thinks from nothing, because if that's the case why did the ANBU became amazed when they saw Nidaime casting a Water Barrier in that enviroment that had no water at all, im not saying they launch their chakra out of their body into things, i am saying that somehow they use it to cast those elements, just think about the Summoning Jutsu how can they use their chakra to summon something that's like 1000 miles away?, however even if that wasn't the case since Gaara has Shukaku inside him which is the incarnation of sand i don't think the rule applies much to him, because he must have some natural control over the sand, like Haku with the water for example, they can control it but they waste chakra on the attacks nonetheless.
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