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Old 2007-02-16, 17:16   Link #101
neilz
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This is the reason I don't like 1 hit skills, its hard to show it with good fighting scene backing it up. Naruto shouldn't learn Hiraishin, readers will be bored of his fight...
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Old 2007-02-16, 17:25   Link #102
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Did you already forget the sheer size of his attacks?

I mean really you have to be crazy to think this was the best possible strategy whereas it was a complete and total failure. And note that I didn't want to see Kakuzu using a perfect strategy so he would win since I wanted Naruto to kick his sorry ass.
But I wanted something more impressive and credible and I don't feel that what Kishimoto imagined is that good. Kakuzu had the ability to attack from several angles at the same time, he should have done so and lose despite that.
No, I haven't forgotten that, but have you forgotten that the jinchuuriki is needed alive? For the others there, that might be a good move, but for Naruto, it may not be as good as it sounds.

By the way, I am not saying, definitely, this is the best strategy. I am saying given what Kakuzu has and has observed, for him, this might be the best strategy at hand to achieve all what he wanted to achieve, instead of taking steps one by one without foreseeing the future.

And, honestly, I understand your feelings how the fight turned out, I also wanted to see something more, not from Kakuzu, his future was decided at the time Naruto joined the fight and he already showed what he can do, but I want to see more techniques from Naruto, to show the limits of what he can really do, including the summons and other important techniques Jiraiya taught him (some defensive ones for instance), and any other technique he developed. But, it didn't happen.

Also, I don't think Kakuzu had been in a bad situation like that before during this fight, where, as I said to Rurik, he is not as limited.

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Yeah right and inversely anyone who think your way must be a Naruto fanboy I guess.
Not specifically Naruto fanboy, but I am a fan of good characters in usual (not just in this one, in almost all the other stories), and any time they win, I normally appreciate the result. Still, I am not that subjective. I still consider Sasori's loss as something stupidly plot-driven, even maybe worse than the fight between Naruto and Kakuzu.

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Since I complained about Sasori's fight I suppose I'm also a Sakura/Chiyo hater, since I complained about some things from both Naruto and Sasuke during their fight I must hate both of them and actually since I'm pretty sure I complained against every single characters of this show at least once over the years I must hate them all yet be a tard for their opponents even if I hate them too of course.
Then, either you were not vocal like this time, or there were not many objections. And, right now, even if you are really trying to be objective, to me, it doesn't really look that way (on why the fight ended this way). And I believe I gave my reasons for that.

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And you think it's likely that Naruto gained an incredible speed boost between the chapter 341 and 342 because.... ?
Because, depending on the amount of Kyuubi impact, it is possible up to some point (upto his limit). And, it is even possible that Naruto downplayed his limit before, unintentionally, by not going to the max-speed (max-Kyuubi extraction) the first time he attacked Kakuzu. Again, I am not saying it is a fact, I am just saying it is possible.

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Naruto was very fast, we knew his use of Kage Bunshin had improved but the chapter 341 really showed how amazingly good he became with them which is why he almost killed Kakuzu the first time. Kakuzu dying there would have been fine with me btw, Naruto's skills are obviously incredible now.
But the reason he landed the last blow wasn't some uber imaginary speed boost, it was a simple trick.
It might look simple, I agree, but you might have noticed that Kakuzu also noticed the attack coming onto him, unfortunately, for him, he was too late in responding. Isn't it really possible that what Kakuzu considered for Naruto's speed was a major reason for him to not avoid that attack? Meaning, he had actually taken into account Naruto's speed, but Naruto performed much better than he expected, resulting in his failure. And, in my view, that doesn't make him stupid.

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My point is pretty simple actually : Naruto beating Kakuzu with incredible skills (like his first charge) would be great and Naruto beating Kakuzu with a smart trick would be great too.
In the other hand Naruto beating Kakuzu with the simplest trick there is just shows lack of imagination from Kishimoto.
Kishi's lack of imagination is not a new day's news. We have known that for sometime.

Anyway, I thought the main discussion was about Kakuzu being stupid or not for his failure.
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Old 2007-02-16, 17:26   Link #103
gibits
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Sorry I'm not sure what you're asking me.
Kakuzu's ghosts could AOE from his shoulders or from his back and probably anywhere on his body or completely detached from him.
What I'm saying is that Kakuzu continuing to use his high lvl AOE attack from anywhere you want would have made Naruto looks even better once he defeated him.

Does that answer your question?
Yes it does
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Old 2007-02-16, 18:05   Link #104
Hunter
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
No, I haven't forgotten that, but have you forgotten that the jinchuuriki is needed alive? For the others there, that might be a good move, but for Naruto, it may not be as good as it sounds.
Kind of irrelevant since Kakuzu believed they were clones to begin with... and was trying to kill Naruto anyway (it's not the first time btw, you can only wonder what crossed Kakuzu's mind when he tried to tear off Naruto's heart or when Deidara almost blowed them all with his Clay clone).

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By the way, I am not saying, definitely, this is the best strategy. I am saying given what Kakuzu has and has observed, for him, this might be the best strategy at hand to achieve all what he wanted to achieve, instead of taking steps one by one without foreseeing the future.

And, honestly, I understand your feelings how the fight turned out, I also wanted to see something more, not from Kakuzu, his future was decided at the time Naruto joined the fight and he already showed what he can do, but I want to see more techniques from Naruto, to show the limits of what he can really do, including the summons and other important techniques Jiraiya taught him (some defensive ones for instance), and any other technique he developed. But, it didn't happen.

Also, I don't think Kakuzu had been in a bad situation like that before during this fight, where, as I said to Rurik, he is not as limited.
Well Naruto beating Kakuzu with some new stuff would have been fine with me as well. I'm all for some summoning, maybe dual use of elemental jutsu with Gamakishi or somehting like that.
Kakuzu going all out and losing against what we have seen from Naruto or Naruto showing way more power and destroying Kakuzu would have made my day.

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Not specifically Naruto fanboy, but I am a fan of good characters in usual (not just in this one, in almost all the other stories), and any time they win, I normally appreciate the result. Still, I am not that subjective. I still consider Sasori's loss as something stupidly plot-driven, even maybe worse than the fight between Naruto and Kakuzu.
Sasori's fight was 100 times worse than this one will ever be in term of credibility. There are at least 3 events that not only aren't credible but down right don't make any senses.
I wasn't saying you were a Naruto fanboy, I was implying the opposite : not everyone who think this event was credible has to be a Naruto fanboy and not everyone who think this event wasn't credible has to be a Naruto hater.

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Then, either you were not vocal like this time, or there were not many objections. And, right now, even if you are really trying to be objective, to me, it doesn't really look that way (on why the fight ended this way). And I believe I gave my reasons for that.
I was actually way more vocal since I had way more time to arg, I had a huge arguement with Shadamehr because I was saying that both Naruto and Sasuke were fighting like bulls and you probably also forgot how I ranted about Sasori's stupidity for weeks, some comments about Shika's stamina increasing out of nowhere, how Chouji's fight was being ridiculous, etc.
Let's be fair I tend to complain a lot.

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Because, depending on the amount of Kyuubi impact, it is possible up to some point (upto his limit). And, it is even possible that Naruto downplayed his limit before, unintentionally, by not going to the max-speed (max-Kyuubi extraction) the first time he attacked Kakuzu. Again, I am not saying it is a fact, I am just saying it is possible.
You're missing my point, I'm not asking how Naruto's speed might have increased. I'm asking where in this chapter you see any kind of information, hint, whatever implying that Naruto's speed suddenly get a boost.
Kakuzu thought about what was going on and basically it was : holly shit I chose to ignore the real one behind me and I notice that whereas he's right behind me while I'm in middle air.
And not OMG he's too fast.

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It might look simple, I agree, but you might have noticed that Kakuzu also noticed the attack coming onto him, unfortunately, for him, he was too late in responding. Isn't it really possible that what Kakuzu considered for Naruto's speed was a major reason for him to not avoid that attack? Meaning, he had actually taken into account Naruto's speed, but Naruto performed much better than he expected, resulting in his failure. And, in my view, that doesn't make him stupid.
Like I said above no. The fact is that Naruto's speed was already very high the first time, with only 3 clones as decoy he completely outmanoeuvred Kakuzu.
Kakuzu knew this, he just thought he was killing the real one and didn't need to take care of the clones. And I think this is one hell of a stupid mistake.

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Kishi's lack of imagination is not a new day's news. We have known that for sometime.
Anyway, I thought the main discussion was about Kakuzu being stupid or not for his failure.
Of course it's old new but like I said I didn't ask for some Death Note plan-like either. A slightly more complex KB trick or like you said some summon/jutsu from Naruto was all I asked.

Kakuzu being stupid and Kishimoto's lack of imagination : po-tay-toe and po-tah-toe.
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Old 2007-02-16, 18:34   Link #105
Mr. Johnny 5
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After defeating Kakuzu...

Well one thing i like to know....Kishi said through Chouji & Ino (was Naruto this smart?) but you are still not on Shikamaru's level...(being smart)

Is it really Naruto being/becoming smart(er)? Or is it mere experience? And/or a great deal of luck...

Just like Kakashi mentioned that Naruto has surpassed him. (Is that based on all fields, strenght, power, jutsu's, etc. etc.?)

I really dont mind it since it is bound to happen some day but...things are brought so weird/unconvincing to us.

Also is Sasuke merly acting? Or is he really a cold-hearted freak like his brother is reputated (though he seems also a softy)?
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Old 2007-02-16, 18:47   Link #106
Hunter
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Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5 View Post
After defeating Kakuzu...

Well one thing i like to know....Kishi said through Chouji & Ino (was Naruto this smart?) but you are still not on Shikamaru's level...(being smart)

Is it really Naruto being/becoming smart(er)? Or is it mere experience? And/or a great deal of luck...
Well when Naruto isn't Kyubified he is often a cunning fighter.
That much didn't change but he's now way swifter in the application and doesn't need to spam KB and take a beating to evaluate his opponents.
And of course Naruto's always lucky.

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Just like Kakashi mentioned that Naruto has surpassed him. (Is that based on all fields, strenght, power, jutsu's, etc. etc.?)
That means overall. Of course there are many field where Kakashi is way better but Naruto seems to have become stronger than Kakashi at last (but yeah I agree it wasn't very well done).

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Also is Sasuke merly acting? Or is he really a cold-hearted freak like his brother is reputated (though he seems also a softy)?
Right now Sasuke doesn't seem like a cold-hearted freak at fall. He willingly sparred 15+ of his opponents just because he thought he had no reason to kill them, not very Oro-like.
Bleh his redemption shall come. I prefered the idea of Sasuke falling to the dark side a little further than that.
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Old 2007-02-16, 21:44   Link #107
Sinaura
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Why would he just focus on that Naruto and neglect the clones which can also do damage? not to mention, the Shinoby actually sensing another big amount of Chakra coming from another direction.
He could neglect those clones because they didn't possess the jutsu that could kill him at that instance, the Naruto clone in front of him did. What do you mean by sensing a large amount of chakra? The only time I remember anyone sensing chakra was Zabuza and Kakashi when Naruto first unleashed the Kyuubi chakra, and that's due to the insanely evil attribute of it. I don't believe ninjas can merely sense chakra, or else the whole idea of a ninja in the shadows would be useless. But then again I could be mistaken.

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I think compared to Zabuza case the difference is Big, Considering that even if the clone had the Jutsu, Naruto was playing around with clones, so Kakuuzu neglected the possibility of a Clone bait (when Surprise surprise, just seconds before, Naruto had done something similar),

For a suppossed Experienced Shibnoby , specifically what we could say is the most experience shinoby shown so far in the series, it just fall for a category of the writer mishandling the story.
I agree the fight could've been better or longer, but regardless that clone still had the jutsu that could've ended him. Probably to a logical, experienced ninja no one would be stupid enough to risk that vast amount of chakra on a jutsu for a clone just as a distraction for the real attack. It wasn't the Naruto clone that distracted him per say, you could say Naruto cloned his "ultimate" attack to distract Kakuzu, an insane and bad ass move on his part. I think that's the point most people are missing. Naruto pulled off a distraction within a distraction by making Kakuzu believe that the Naruto's coming after him was the true distraction.

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
In the case of Zabuza, Naruto not only used the clones to distract Zabuza whereas he made the Henge , but he even was quick enough to Use this Henge form to get Himself inside the bag, pass himself with the clone to Sasuke and then in mid air throw the Kunai, everything for the purpose to Free Kakashi the only one that could really defeat Zabuza, this kind of Tactic, is as good as the one made By Shikamaru.
This was probably the one of the most clever things I've ever seen in the series, but Naruto did the same thing again this time, he created a distraction within a distraction.



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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
My experience Would had told me get rid of the threat and not loose sight and all of the other clones, I for once don’t see anymore the cleverness of this tactics, because it was the same tactic used Against Neeji, “I fool oyu with who was the real me”
His experience would've told him that the real one would have to be the one controlling the jutsu and the other ones are just distractions, and when he destroys the real ninja the other clones would disappear like how they're supposed to afterwards. When it comes down to it, Kakuzu's experience didn't save him, and Kakashi himself summarized it best as to how and why Naruto was able to beat Kakuzu and his experience, when he said that "the next generation always surpasses the previous one". The fight overall should have been longer though I still believe.
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Old 2007-02-16, 22:32   Link #108
Mists
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How cumbersome this next chapter has been.....While the anime finally reached Pt2 it seems like the manga is in a downward spiral. While I don't mind the unborn children being that 'King' (not what I expected...) it's still hard to imagine how Shika reacted when he heard it from Asuma (maybe he thought, 'that bastard...killed Asuma and kurenai is pregnant!)

So...the 10 special 'protectors' are in fact merely protectors of every unborn child? What? Isn't that what all of Konoha stand for anyway? Do they need this special group? Was the bald guy at the beginning of this new Akatsuki hunt the Master nanny?

And Kakashi killing Kazuzu...why? The fact he had lived to fight the first hokage ...there was so much to learn from the guy...especially when it seemed like he was older than Akatsuki itself! So yet another Raikiri from Kakashi....

And the new theme of the next generation taking over the old...

It sounds quite odd, though it's sorta true but not entirely. It felt like Kishi just gave us the reason for the easy loss...and now he gave us a reason why every former genin is great now and better than the adults. It feels unbelievable...and like a bad excuse...I can't explain any further, but that' s the way it seemed. Like now we just got a preview of the Sannin's downfall...yet Kakashi was no way as strong as the 4th or probably the 3rd? And now we get this excuse that the young ones should be stronger...? I don't buy it!

The manga is getting more unbelievable by the second, someone tell me the time that's left for Oro to take over Sasuke's body?

So much beef....especially the way Asuma died....there were no wishes or thoughts to see Kurenai...or even an excuse to not go through with the battle because he had a baby coming.

When he says 'I finally understand what the 3rd meant...' that means he understands the symbol on his shirt to protect all unborn children!? WhAt!?! Yes, at that instant after learning he's the 3rd's son, throw him away, don't even give him any details on Kurenai and the child...he wasn't fighting for his team...he was fighting for the unborn child.................

Blah blah, sounds like an idea that popped up to get people thinking yet Kishi didn't think of what that idea might be.

I suspect we might see more of that...but these chapters didn't seemingly develop anyone at all...it felt empty.........

But ahead, enjoy it, BS me but if you read the manga from the beginning and then compare it to now...You'll see what I mean.

Perhaps we have yet to see Naruto's 1st full major fight (we had over 5 in the 1st part and 0 so far here - just cannon fodder or Kyuubi excuses).......meh......
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Old 2007-02-16, 22:56   Link #109
Rurik
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Originally Posted by Sinaura View Post
He could neglect those clones because they didn't possess the jutsu that could kill him at that instance, the Naruto clone in front of him did.
Yeah, He could neglect the other clones while, he attacked the one That had the Jutsu, but then there was another that had the other Jutsu, comom, One thing is been weary of the one with the Jutsu and another is just forgetting about everything else, that just A stupid move.


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What do you mean by sensing a large amount of chakra? The only time I remember anyone sensing chakra was Zabuza and Kakashi when Naruto first unleashed the Kyuubi chakra, and that's due to the insanely evil attribute of it. I don't believe ninjas can merely sense chakra, or else the whole idea of a ninja in the shadows would be useless. But then again I could be mistaken.
If Im not mistaken, Kakuuzu could sense that the Jutsu was a danger to him, I doubt it was just because of the Visuals. as also Yamato could sense that Kakuuzu was gathering a lot of energy.

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I agree the fight could've been better or longer, but regardless that clone still had the jutsu that could've ended him. Probably to a logical, experienced ninja no one would be stupid enough to risk that vast amount of chakra on a jutsu for a clone just as a distraction for the real attack. It wasn't the Naruto clone that distracted him per say, you could say Naruto cloned his "ultimate" attack to distract Kakuzu, an insane and bad ass move on his part. I think that's the point most people are missing. Naruto pulled off a distraction within a distraction by making Kakuzu believe that the Naruto's coming after him was the true distraction.
But For a Experienced NInja they should tell that someone like Naruto (that happens to have a Almost unlimited source of CHakra), could pull of those High Chakra consuming Jutsu because of what he is, or what Suddenly Kakuuzu also forgot he had A Demon Inside?

I not missing that he used a Clone to distract Kakuuzu, because this is basically the same he did Neeji...ohh wait with Neeji was more clever than this, because with Neeji at least he made it look as One of the clone was the original by Making the clone not do things other clone would do not to mention it was more credible for all of us because Neeji was not Sandaime. Sounds Familiar?

Not to mention also that Kakuuzu saw twice that Narutos like to Bait His Clones, so in the 3rd try, Kakuuzu suddenly forgot that Naruto failed before, Discarded that Naruto could had set a trap on the same manner as before, Decided to Put all of His heart together, and fight at close range! Man, or that either is Kakuuzu acting Dumb, or Naruto is so lucky that everything went his way. Why Not attack The clones with his Jutsus he made before? Why Put his heart Together? so When if the Jutsu strikes It destroy more at the same time. Why Get close to the clone using a Close range Jutsu?

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This was probably the one of the most clever things I've ever seen in the series, but Naruto did the same thing again this time, he created a distraction within a distraction.
This one falls under the category of the other 3 or 5 times he has made it, HE made Kakuuzu attack the clone, whereas his real self was going to attack, I don't see the Distraction within a Distraction here.

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His experience would've told him that the real one would have to be the one controlling the jutsu and the other ones are just distractions, and when he destroys the real ninja the other clones would disappear like how they're supposed to afterwards.

His experience would had told him not get close to a Close range fighter with a very dangerous Close range Jutsu.

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When it comes down to it, Kakuzu's experience didn't save him, and Kakashi himself summarized it best as to how and why Naruto was able to beat Kakuzu and his experience, when he said that "the next generation always surpasses the previous one". The fight overall should have been longer though I still believe.
Of course Kakshi needed to summarize Kishimoto's mess on how He made the plot of Kakuuzu been defeated in a not so convincing way, what would you expect Kakashi to say then? "YOu got Dumb because the higher powers of this series decided its like that""?

At the end you can defend Naruto victory all you want, but Do people really feel comfortable on how Kishimot made Naruto defeat Kakuuzu? seriously, I want to know who Would had prefer this way, instead of other more credible, convincing, Climatic way, and ones that really shows the New Naruto?
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Old 2007-02-16, 22:57   Link #110
Lemartes
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Well, You know how I see it, I will always see as Kakuuzu been dumb for the sake of the plot.
Without any valid arguments.



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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
It seems you don’t get the point, as I said to Sazelyt, the point here is not merely about experience, is about Kakuuzu Experince plus the fact that he was tricked by the generic "who is the real One trick". And if you take Kakuuzu Experience + The Trick Naruto used, and compared it to Zabuza Experience + the trick he used, the difference are very huge.

Reason why the one he made to Zabuza, you don’t see, even the "haters", saying this was Zabuza becoming Dumb, as everyone’s agree it was a brilliant plan from Naruto.


BTW, I think it would be healthy If we use a thread to specifically talk about Naruto's Developmen and his victory against Kakuuzu, maybe the thread Created by Shurikenjay, because we have already 2 Episodes thread debating this, and it seems this is not going to stop.
Please explain to me, how Kakuuzu was supposed to recognize the real Naruto. Kage Bushin isn't something you can see through that easily. And not any ninja can let his clones use such high level jutsus.
The point is: Narutos bushins aren't weak. They're extremely strong as this is his favourite jutsu.
And even though Kakuuzu focused on the real Naruto. Why? Because he was afraid of that jutsu and set the avoidance of it higher on the priority list.

Get it straight: Naruto had a clone hold a jutsu not even the fourth could accomplish. Kakuzuu wasn't dumbed down. He was left out of options and got overpowered.
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Old 2007-02-16, 23:09   Link #111
Rurik
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Originally Posted by Lemartes View Post
Please explain to me, how Kakuuzu was supposed to recognize the real Naruto.
Just like Oro could tell right away Sai Bushin (and don't come here with the Excuse they are different given Oro didn't tell it was a Bushin because its was of another Substance), or maybe because Experience is a powerful tool? and more when you have 80 years of it? is not that he could tell which one is real, is that he fell for a trick he shouldn't have, just as Oro wasnt fool by a Bushin trick either.
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Kage Bushin isn't something you can see through that easily. And not any ninja can let his clones use such high level jutsus.
Yeah, but people seems to forget that this was Naruto, that happen to be a Jinchuriki, that Kakuuuz happens to know that.

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The point is: Narutos bushins aren't weak. They're extremely strong as this is his favourite jutsu.
And even though Kakuuzu focused on the real Naruto. Why? Because he was afraid of that jutsu and set the avoidance of it higher on the priority list.
If Kakuuzu was afraid of that Jutsu, he wouldn't had gotten Close to Naruto, instead fighting at long range.
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Get it straight: Naruto had a clone hold a jutsu not even the fourth could accomplish. Kakuzuu wasn't dumbed down. He was left out of options and got overpowered.
So, He dint had any option left? So Kakuuz suddenly didn't had any Long Range Jutsu, no, not those one he used Against Kakahshi, Chouji and Ino, and He needed to get all his heart together, because if they were separated that Jutsu could do more damage to him overall.
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Old 2007-02-17, 00:00   Link #112
Sinaura
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Yeah, He could neglect the other clones while, he attacked the one That had the Jutsu, but then there was another that had the other Jutsu, comom, One thing is been weary of the one with the Jutsu and another is just forgetting about everything else, that just A stupid move.
The real Naruto didn't have the Rasengan jutsu until after kakuzu destroyed the clone, so right there negates what you are trying to say. Naruto was actually pretty clever to have two clones "attack" with him, so that they would be able to help him form the rasengan from behind Kakuzu. And it is not stupid to attack the person with the only thing that could really mess up you.

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If Im not mistaken, Kakuuzu could sense that the Jutsu was a danger to him, I doubt it was just because of the Visuals. as also Yamato could sense that Kakuuzu was gathering a lot of energy.
Yes you are correct, but then at that point those are huge amounts of chakra, the Rasengan and Kakuzu gathering chakra to combat the Rasengan compared to the chakra of Naruto and the clones. Naruto can actively hide his chakra from being noticed, at least I assume or else it would be pretty simple to find all the uber powerful ninjas of the world. It's quite logical to assume that it would've been difficult for Kakuzu to worry about finding Naruto's "chakra reading" when a huge chakra monster of a Rasengan was in front of him.



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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
But For a Experienced NInja they should tell that someone like Naruto (that happens to have a Almost unlimited source of CHakra), could pull of those High Chakra consuming Jutsu because of what he is, or what Suddenly Kakuuzu also forgot he had A Demon Inside?
There was never a hint of the Kyuubi chakra during this fight because, frankly, the whole point of this arc was that Naruto would learn how to fight without it. If Kakuzu didn't sense it, why would he worry about it? At this point all he would have had to worry about was the chakra capabilities of the ninja, not the bijuu.

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I not missing that he used a Clone to distract Kakuuzu, because this is basically the same he did Neeji...ohh wait with Neeji was more clever than this, because with Neeji at least he made it look as One of the clone was the original by Making the clone not do things other clone would do not to mention it was more credible for all of us because Neeji was not Sandaime. Sounds Familiar?
You are missing the point because you believe Naruto tricked Kakuzu with a clone of himself alone, what I am saying truly tricked kakuzu was the real threat that clone had in his hands, the rasengan. it was different with Neji, he made his clone play possum, here Naruto made his clone a true threat to Kakuzu.

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Not to mention also that Kakuuzu saw twice that Narutos like to Bait His Clones, so in the 3rd try, Kakuuzu suddenly forgot that Naruto failed before, Discarded that Naruto could had set a trap on the same manner as before, Decided to Put all of His heart together, and fight at close range! Man, or that either is Kakuuzu acting Dumb, or Naruto is so lucky that everything went his way. Why Not attack The clones with his Jutsus he made before? Why Put his heart Together? so When if the Jutsu strikes It destroy more at the same time. Why Get close to the clone using a Close range Jutsu?
Kakuzu's jutsu wasn't close range what are you talking about? He knew for a fact that he couldn't fight at close range or else he'd be done for, that's what he figured out in chapter 340. I don't know why he put his hearts together, but it probably was because it was a 5 on 1 scenario and he wanted all his hearts so as to prevent any of them from dying, thus decreasing his power. And again, why bother with the clones when you know that, after killing the original, the clones die themselves? So because of that perfect logic, he completely ignored the "clones" and went after the "real" Naruto.

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
This one falls under the category of the other 3 or 5 times he has made it, HE made Kakuuzu attack the clone, whereas his real self was going to attack, I don't see the Distraction within a Distraction here.
The supposed distraction was the clones flanking Kakuzu so that the "real" Naruto could get in on Kakuzu. The distraction within a distraction part was the fact that the fake Naruto with the Rasengan was actually the real distraction, allowing the real Naruto to attack. Back before Naruto would make his opponents play a guessing game, but here he made it seem as if there could be no doubt that the Naruto with the Rasengan was the real one, because as Kakuzu said, Naruto risked his body to distract him.


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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
His experience would had told him not get close to a Close range fighter with a very dangerous Close range Jutsu.
He already realized that in chapter 340 after Naruto's first failed attempt. He says it himself that all he needs to do is avoid fighting at close range.



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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Of course Kakshi needed to summarize Kishimoto's mess on how He made the plot of Kakuuzu been defeated in a not so convincing way, what would you expect Kakashi to say then? "YOu got Dumb because the higher powers of this series decided its like that""?
That was the intent of this arc all along to show that the next generation surpasses the previous. Asuma was unable to defeat Hidan, so Shika, the next generation, took the role and did what Asuma could not, and that is defeat Hidan. What Naruto did was no different

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
At the end you can defend Naruto victory all you want, but Do people really feel comfortable on how Kishimot made Naruto defeat Kakuuzu? seriously, I want to know who Would had prefer this way, instead of other more credible, convincing, Climatic way, and ones that really shows the New Naruto?
We didn't see a new Shikamaru when he defeated Hidan, he was the same old brilliant tactician, why should Naruto be any different. Both of these ninja have improved immensely, but they are not going to change so dramatically that Naruto is no longer Naruto. His tactics are always "unpredictably", but in terms of knowledge and power, he keeps improving. What I also suspect what kishi was trying to say when Naruto had "changed" was the fact that he is confident in his ninja abilities, and that he no longer needs the powers of Kyuubi, that is what truly changed about Naruto. So yeah, Naruto defeating Kakuzu without Kyuubi's help is fine by me. The only down side is that Kakashi was the one to finish off Kakuzu, so far I don't believe Naruto has killed any ninja he's fought. Then again, maybe that's what kishi wants to build on with sasuke not wanting to kill ninjas as well except Itachi. I'm done.
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Old 2007-02-17, 00:39   Link #113
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
At the end you can defend Naruto victory all you want, but Do people really feel comfortable on how Kishimot made Naruto defeat Kakuuzu? seriously, I want to know who Would had prefer this way, instead of other more credible, convincing, Climatic way, and ones that really shows the New Naruto?
So what do you expect? Kuchiyose? Some sword wielding? Ninjutsu? Genjutsu? What is the more credible, convincing and climatic way you think is right? Mangekyou sharingan with some fast genjutsu/ninjutsu which catch his opponent unaware? Or Hirashin?

In the end, what does it end up? An mistake by the opponent. It will end the same way. Naruto will eventually use that jutsu. Or would you prefer Naruto and co. to get bloodied by the opponent to be considered climatic?

As a matter of fact, the Akatsuki members are horribly overpowered right now. After such a long battle, the opponent should be more or less wear down to pay attention to old tricks.

Some really interesting observation.
Itachi > Orochimaru, when Oro did not explicitly state that he was weaker.
Kakashi > Naruto, when Kakashi said that Naruto has surpassed him.
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Old 2007-02-17, 01:00   Link #114
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Just like Oro could tell right away Sai Bushin (and don't come here with the Excuse they are different given Oro didn't tell it was a Bushin because its was of another Substance), or maybe because Experience is a powerful tool? and more when you have 80 years of it? is not that he could tell which one is real, is that he fell for a trick he shouldn't have, just as Oro wasnt fool by a Bushin trick either.
It's Kage Bushin, not Bushin. Kage Bushin creates actual copies which cannot be seen through even by the hyuga bloodline limit.
And what does age matter if you lack the experience in this specific situation? Where exactly did he encounter someone who has that high lvl of attack jutsu? Age doesn't necessarily translate into experience.
And even experience can be leveled by pure force.

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Yeah, but people seems to forget that this was Naruto, that happen to be a Jinchuriki, that Kakuuuz happens to know that.
And that does exactly what if he is weaker? He didn't change to long range for no reason. Naruto got him once but his jutsu vanished before impact.
Why on earth does everyone think that this first attempt was luck or something and that just because Kakuuzu has seen his strategy once, should make him immune to that?
Naruto was faster and stronger, so what? He overpowered him and there was no way that Kakuuzu could have known this Naruto with the jutsu was a clone and the real one could make this jutsu for a 3rd time right behind him.

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
If Kakuuzu was afraid of that Jutsu, he wouldn't had gotten Close to Naruto, instead fighting at long range.
this is totally wrong as explained in the posting above.

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
So, He dint had any option left? So Kakuuz suddenly didn't had any Long Range Jutsu, no, not those one he used Against Kakahshi, Chouji and Ino, and He needed to get all his heart together, because if they were separated that Jutsu could do more damage to him overall.
And what would have happend to this jutsu on impact taking narutos much higher level jutsu straight on?
Separated hearts would leave them more vulnerable to narutos strong kage bushins.
He didn't have a choice.

And quite honestly, I don't get why most people here can't accept someone like Kakuuzu underestimating Naruto. Is this dragonball with some fancy fighting-power-measuring instruments?
Ah...oh snap, he lived for 80 years and should have all this experience!
Are your parents or grandparents always right? Are they flawless without any wrong judgements or mistakes? In my book, Kakuuzu is a human...in a manga, but still modelled after a human. And humans can make mistakes.
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Old 2007-02-17, 01:07   Link #115
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The real Naruto didn't have the Rasengan jutsu until after kakuzu destroyed the clone, so right there negates what you are trying to say. Naruto was actually pretty clever to have two clones "attack" with him, so that they would be able to help him form the rasengan from behind Kakuzu. And it is not stupid to attack the person with the only thing that could really mess up you.
NAruto Had the FR before or during the Clone been destroyed as the other panel already showed the Ransegan Completed and Naruto in Mid air ready for the attack.


Quote:
Yes you are correct, but then at that point those are huge amounts of chakra, the Rasengan and Kakuzu gathering chakra to combat the Rasengan compared to the chakra of Naruto and the clones. Naruto can actively hide his chakra from being noticed, at least I assume or else it would be pretty simple to find all the uber powerful ninjas of the world. It's quite logical to assume that it would've been difficult for Kakuzu to worry about finding Naruto's "chakra reading" when a huge chakra monster of a Rasengan was in front of him.

This is not about The CHakra of Naruto, this about the energy that A jutsu like the FR produce and that should be perceivable by others. I don't know up to what a degree a Shinoby can do this, but if Kakshi could sense something like Those tow powers Colliding in the VOTE from a mile, picking such a powerful jutsu that Naruto can only do 3 times, should be more easier.


Quote:
There was never a hint of the Kyuubi chakra during this fight because, frankly, the whole point of this arc was that Naruto would learn how to fight without it. If Kakuzu didn't sense it, why would he worry about it? At this point all he would have had to worry about was the chakra capabilities of the ninja, not the bijuu.
Naruto had his Kyuby eyes, and Kakuuzu told by Himself Naruto was a JInchuriki. I'm not talking about Worrying about using Kyuby, I'm talking about knowing that Naruto was a Jinchurki, and thus had a high Chakra capacity.


Quote:
You are missing the point because you believe Naruto tricked Kakuzu with a clone of himself alone, what I am saying truly tricked kakuzu was the real threat that clone had in his hands, the rasengan. it was different with Neji, he made his clone play possum, here Naruto made his clone a true threat to Kakuzu.

I don't belive Naruto Tricked Kakuuzu with the clone alone, Don't try to suggest my point of view, the core point here is not about the KB that had the Jutsu, the point here is falling for that easy trick when you know your opponent can only hurt you in close range.

Quote:
Kakuzu's jutsu wasn't close range what are you talking about? He knew for a fact that he couldn't fight at close range or else he'd be done for, that's what he figured out in chapter 340.
When I said Close range was talking about Naruto Clone, not Kakuuzu. and either way, When he was going to attack Naruto he decided to get close to the clone, instead of maintaining a Distance. when Kishimot already stated before that the only way you can defeat a Long range Fighter is either with a brain like Shikamaru or A long range Jutsu, so why will Kakuuzu decide to ignore this basic rule, and Do something different?


Quote:
I don't know why he put his hearts together, but it probably was because it was a 5 on 1 scenario and he wanted all his hearts so as to prevent any of them from dying, thus decreasing his power. And again, why bother with the clones when you know that, after killing the original, the clones die themselves? So because of that perfect logic, he completely ignored the "clones" and went after the "real" Naruto.
I do know why he put his heart togehter, and surely it wasnt because Kakuuzu touhg about the other 4 as a treat, as his last attack wasnt even considering then at all either.


Quote:
The supposed distraction was the clones flanking Kakuzu so that the "real" Naruto could get in on Kakuzu. The distraction within a distraction part was the fact that the fake Naruto with the Rasengan was actually the real distraction, allowing the real Naruto to attack. Back before Naruto would make his opponents play a guessing game, but here he made it seem as if there could be no doubt that the Naruto with the Rasengan was the real one, because as Kakuzu said, Naruto risked his body to distract him.
Is not only about attacking the clones (more on that in a moment), is about experience and Doing the correct choices based on been experienced, is about Be prepared for the attack, don't get close to that Jutsu, I don't really know who is the real one; the assumption Kakuuzu made was as good at the one Made by Neeji, A assumption that Shinoby with no experience can fall for, Kakuuzu doesn't belongs in this category.

Quote:
He already realized that in chapter 340 after Naruto's first failed attempt. He says it himself that all he needs to do is avoid fighting at close range.
So why stop using his Normal attacks that were long range and instead switching to a Fighting style that required to be closer to the Target?

And now that I rewatched the Chapter again I even found Kakuuzu Defeat more Pathetic than before, I mean, Why after gaining such Tremendous force, he decides instead of just taking the clone away with his Tentacles, he decides to Ignore them to attack the Directly The one With the Jutsu, Man, not even HIdan have done something as stupid as this.

Quote:
That was the intent of this arc all along to show that the next generation surpasses the previous. Asuma was unable to defeat Hidan, so Shika, the next generation, took the role and did what Asuma could not, and that is defeat Hidan. What Naruto did was no different.

And no one that is saying Kakuuzu was dumb down because of plot said this is should had been different And Kakuuzu should had won, the point is about the poor choice made by Kishimoto on how Naruto defeated Kakuuzu, and not abaout the outcome of the fight, even the first intent on the Rasen Shurken would had been even better.


Quote:
We didn't see a new Shikamaru when he defeated Hidan, he was the same old brilliant tactician, why should Naruto be any different. Both of these ninja have improved immensely, but they are not going to change so dramatically that Naruto is no longer Naruto.
Well, I guess you miss all of the Jutsu he had we havent seen before, and the spotlight of someone having a drastic change wasnt on Shika.


Quote:
His tactics are always "unpredictably", but in terms of knowledge and power, he keeps improving. What I also suspect what kishi was trying to say when Naruto had "changed" was the fact that he is confident in his ninja abilities, and that he no longer needs the powers of Kyuubi, that is what truly changed about Naruto. So yeah, Naruto defeating Kakuzu without Kyuubi's help is fine by me. The only down side is that Kakashi was the one to finish off Kakuzu, so far I don't believe Naruto has killed any ninja he's fought. Then again, maybe that's what kishi wants to build on with sasuke not wanting to kill ninjas as well except Itachi. I'm done.
I think you didn't get my question, So its fine with you the plot used By Kishimot to make Naruto defeat Kakuuzu? you think Kishimot couldn't had done something, not better, no, but something way more better and convincing than this one?

-----


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Originally Posted by Blaster View Post
So what do you expect? Kuchiyose? Some sword wielding? Ninjutsu? Genjutsu? What is the more credible, convincing and climatic way you think is right? Mangekyou sharingan with some fast genjutsu/ninjutsu which catch his opponent unaware? Or Hirashin?

Kushikose, Overpowering,Using Himself so Kakuuzu atacks him, but taking avantage of his fast healing, you name it! but not something like this, that only made Kakuuzu look like a Super Dumb Shinoby.

Quote:
In the end, what does it end up? An mistake by the opponent. It will end the same way. Naruto will eventually use that jutsu. Or would you prefer Naruto and co. to get bloodied by the opponent to be considered climatic?
Or maybe more bad writing from the Author? which is precisley what people here are saying? I wouldn't had care how NAruto would had ended, but the specific choice made by Kishimot was poor, and made it look as People Orochimaru, Jiraiya TSunade and yodnaime are stupid people.

Quote:
As a matter of fact, the Akatsuki members are horribly overpowered right now. After such a long battle, the opponent should be more or less wear down to pay attention to old tricks.
The problem is that They didn't show any sign of been wear down, so thats is basically irrelevant to the point Im making.

Quote:
Some really interesting observation.
Itachi > Orochimaru, when Oro did not explicitly state that he was weaker.
Kakashi > Naruto, when Kakashi said that Naruto has surpassed him.
No one has said that Kakshi is > Naruto, but Surpassing someone is not about been more powerful, and even like that, IF Kakshi said Naruto has already surpass him, all people here accept it, I haven't seen anyone saying That Kakshi is lying or been over merchandising Naruto. people accept this, even if this people don't like what was said or dont find it that credible; as the same as there are people that accept Itachi been stronger than Oro, even if they don't like that.

-----

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Originally Posted by Lemartes View Post
It's Kage Bushin, not Bushin. Kage Bushin creates actual copies which cannot be seen through even by the hyuga bloodline limit.
And what does age matter if you lack the experience in this specific situation? Where exactly did he encounter someone who has that high lvl of attack jutsu? Age doesn't necessarily translate into experience.
And even experience can be leveled by pure force.
LOL, Sai made an Ink bushin, Reason why I talk about it, telling one clone from the other is going to be difficult regardless of the substance. and then, You are deviating from the point of what the experience is called for, is not ebcause of the Jutsu, is about the KB trick he already saw 2 times before against Naruto there, and the decision that lead to his pitiful death.

We are talking here about someone with enough experience not to do what he did, is not about getting defeated or Killed or overpowered, thats not the point here.


Quote:
And that does exactly what if he is weaker? He didn't change to long range for no reason. Naruto got him once but his jutsu vanished before impact.
Why on earth does everyone think that this first attempt was luck or something and that just because Kakuuzu has seen his strategy once, should make him immune to that?
please, He saw exactly what to do, as he was saying to himself what not to do, and yet, he goes on and does it? HE changed from Long range because he got stupid.

Quote:
Naruto was faster and stronger, so what? He overpowered him and there was no way that Kakuuzu could have known this Naruto with the jutsu was a clone and the real one could make this jutsu for a 3rd time right behind him.
Yes, aside from Kakuuzu seen NAruto using his clones again and again, and instead of at least trying to stop the other clone that were going towards him, he decides to jump over them, not only that, but the part of Dropping his AOE, and joining himself just so the Jutsu made by Naruto had a higher success rate.

Yeah, that was not dumbness.

Quote:
this is totally wrong as explained in the posting above.
The easiest way to defeat a close range fighter is fighting at long range, I wonder Why A shinoby with less experience such as Kakshi and Kidoumaru could tell this, but Kakuuzu even realizing he needed to not get close, he decided to jump right in front of him..with all his hearts!


Quote:
And what would have happend to this jutsu on impact taking narutos much higher level jutsu straight on?
Separated hearts would leave them more vulnerable to narutos strong kage bushins.
He didn't have a choice.
NAruto only made 3 clones, 2 to make de F. Rasengan, Not only did Kakuuzu decided to totally ignore those clones, clones that he could had destroyed at ease, (because KB still are fragile), but Those 3 Kage Bushing could only be able to Deflect little or almost nothing of Kakuuzus Elementals attacks.

Quote:
And quite honestly, I don't get why most people here can't accept someone like Kakuuzu underestimating Naruto. Is this dragonball with some fancy fighting-power-measuring instruments?
Ah...oh snap, he lived for 80 years and should have all this experience!
Are your parents or grandparents always right? Are they flawless without any wrong judgements or mistakes? In my book, Kakuuzu is a human...in a manga, but still modelled after a human. And humans can make mistakes.
This is not about judgement or been right, if My Father has 40 years working as a truck driver, he should know better about that and have in mind usual dangers of that. Kakuuzu has been Killing NInjas for 80 years, he hasn't been Playing marbles, or going to eat ice cream with HIdan, he had lived to kill other NInjas so he can continue to live.

Kakuzu can make mistake, but this one here wasn't a mistake, because he did mistake after mistake after another, this is not something normal for an experienced shinoby.
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Last edited by Rurik; 2007-02-17 at 02:02.
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Old 2007-02-17, 03:47   Link #116
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So that is the jutsu Naruto wants to use to get Sasuke home? Atleast he´s true to his words when he said that he´ll break every bone in Sasuke´s body to get him home.

A nice concluding chapter. Kakuzu down but I´m sure Hidan will come back sooner or later. Atleast I hope so, since he´s definitely my favourite Akatsuki scoundrel so far.

@Sinaura
If you´re going to quote such a long post and only write one line... I suggest you spoiler tag the quote to not take up so much place.
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Old 2007-02-17, 05:08   Link #117
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Whatever you say.
That's all you can say!

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So that is the jutsu Naruto wants to use to get Sasuke home? Atleast he´s true to his words when he said that he´ll break every bone in Sasuke´s body to get him home.

A nice concluding chapter. Kakuzu down but I´m sure Hidan will come back sooner or later. Atleast I hope so, since he´s definitely my favourite Akatsuki scoundrel so far.
I think Kakuzu should consider himself lucky that he didnt die instantly...

Rasengan heavily injured Kabuto (but he seemed a bit ok because of his healing....and still alot of damage was left)

Oodama Rasengan was pretty much the same with even MORE damage the Uchiha Clone (Yuura) died pretty quick after this technique. (uhm was this Naruto's first kill?)

Kazerasengan well that's an instant killer...unless you are immortal like Hidan or Kakuzu (more hearts)
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Old 2007-02-17, 05:56   Link #118
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I think Kakuzu should consider himself lucky that he didnt die instantly...

Rasengan heavily injured Kabuto (but he seemed a bit ok because of his healing....and still alot of damage was left)

Oodama Rasengan was pretty much the same with even MORE damage the Uchiha Clone (Yuura) died pretty quick after this technique. (uhm was this Naruto's first kill?)

Kazerasengan well that's an instant killer...unless you are immortal like Hidan or Kakuzu (more hearts)
You´re right about that, didn´t take Kakuzu´s hearts into consideration. But if this one is a one hit killer then it´s pretty much useless agains Sasuke since they want to take him home. Then the things helping Naruto get Sasuke home would rather be the experiences he´s made about the clones rather than this technique.

I wonder if we can call the Rasengan completed now. I really want to see Naruto focus on getting a larger variety of jutsu´s to use now. Maybe he and Jirayia will focus on "that jutsu" from now on for some time.
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Old 2007-02-17, 07:47   Link #119
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You´re right about that, didn´t take Kakuzu´s hearts into consideration. But if this one is a one hit killer then it´s pretty much useless agains Sasuke since they want to take him home. Then the things helping Naruto get Sasuke home would rather be the experiences he´s made about the clones rather than this technique.

I wonder if we can call the Rasengan completed now. I really want to see Naruto focus on getting a larger variety of jutsu´s to use now. Maybe he and Jirayia will focus on "that jutsu" from now on for some time.
I totally agree with you...

However i dont think Sasuke will care now if he kills Naruto (which will be easier for Sasuke) but Naruto on the other hand will try to bring Sasuke back (unharmed if possible...and without him losing legs, arms etc. which is alot harder)

And if Naruto fights for like....a few hours with Sasuke....and then suddenly disspells his jutsu (Sasuke finding out he was fighting for hours against Naruto's Kage Bunshin....would be hilarious )

Anyway i am suprised that "the King" solution came so much faster then the-still-unknown-that-jutsu...of Naruto. And when we see Jiraiya it's always means:
- more important information
- new jutsu's

So yeah i hope Jiraiya will do a quick training with Naruto...a new jutsu (which would be usefull against Sasuke) Mere Rasengan+Kage Bunshin alone wont do any good against Sasuke. And especially shurikens or ninja tools like that...those wont work at all!
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Old 2007-02-17, 08:24   Link #120
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Kakuzu being stupid and Kishimoto's lack of imagination : po-tay-toe and po-tah-toe.
Just something to add to my post for Sazelyt :
This is not exactly the same actually because I'm not arguing that Naruto didn't outmanoeuvred and outthought the very experienced and rather smart ninja that Kakuzu was. Naruto did all that, it was stated and there is no denying it.
For example Shika understanding that Hidan's circle was related to his vodoo jutsu was meant to show that he was a genius whereas personally I thought "duh!". Same principle.
My rant is about the fact that it wasn't presented very well, not that within the story Kakuzu became stupid.
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