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Old 2010-09-21, 10:10   Link #2481
Arkeus
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Regius actually wanted to prove the Cyborg's efficiency with a "fait accomplis".

Basically, he wanted to show that we didn't need to rely on rare very high powered Mages and could instead make cyborgs out of normals that want to be more efficient- the cyborg tech started out not on babies but on grwon people, and it doesn't use magic.
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Old 2010-09-21, 10:28   Link #2482
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
the cyborg tech started out not on babies but on grwon people.
It does start on babies. Babies need the genetical engineering to make them accept the enhancements. Sure, you can flash-grow them anyway, but it's still only a small difference between that and an artificial mage.
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Old 2010-09-21, 10:39   Link #2483
Arkeus
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
It does start on babies. Babies need the genetical engineering to make them accept the enhancements. Sure, you can flash-grow them anyway, but it's still only a small difference between that and an artificial mage.
I meant it *started* on fully grown adult before Jail managed to make it work by using babies.

I am pretty sureRegius' goal was still to turn regular TSAB people into Cyborgs by first proving their usefulness, and then making the research to turn people into Cyborg legal.
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Old 2010-09-21, 12:54   Link #2484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
I meant it *started* on fully grown adult before Jail managed to make it work by using babies.

I am pretty sureRegius' goal was still to turn regular TSAB people into Cyborgs by first proving their usefulness, and then making the research to turn people into Cyborg legal.
Not really. It was specifically stated that you can't make cyborgs out of adults; the cyborg parts are rejected. There is a briefing in one of the episodes where Genya talks the gang about cyborgs, but I can't recall exactly where at the moment; if no one else can pull it up, I'll go back through the episodes to find it.

The only way to make a cyborg is to engineer a baby at birth to specifically allow cyborg parts, and that's illegal.
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Old 2010-09-21, 13:02   Link #2485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Not really. It was specifically stated that you can't make cyborgs out of adults; the cyborg parts are rejected. There is a briefing in one of the episodes where Genya talks the gang about cyborgs, but I can't recall exactly where at the moment; if no one else can pull it up, I'll go back through the episodes to find it.

The only way to make a cyborg is to engineer a baby at birth to specifically allow cyborg parts, and that's illegal.
From the Sound Stages...

Quote:
Cinque: Nove, explain it to them clearly.
Nove: Mm. Us Numbers are born in two ways: Clone Culture and Pure Culture.
Wendi: Oh~
Nove: Sette and I, Cinque-nee and Uno-nee, we were all made by Clone Culture. The raw materials for the copies were original humans.
Deed: Okay.
Nove: And the rest of you were made by Pure Culture. For a base, he used offsprings from artificial insemination that he had combined with suitable genes.
Dieci: Deed and Otto were born from the same genes.
Deed: Yes, I heard about that.
Cinque: While clones easily display special/certain characteristics, there are problems with production efficiency and cost. They're to obtain the special skills the originals possess, creating models specializing in one art.
Wendi: Ah, like Nove's "Air Liner" and Cinque's "Detonator".
Cinque: Culturing is for mass production. It's hard to obtain desired abilities but their production is far more stable.
Deed: Which type are you, Sein-neesama?
Sein: I was made by Culturing, but I had a mutation. My "Deep Diver" is an ultra-rare ability born by chance, I guess. Hee hee hee~
Dieci: Are our sisters from 1 to 4 a little special?
Cinque: That's right. I'm not too sure on the specifics either, but those four are somewhat special existences for the Doctor. They greatly inherited the Doctor's genes...
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Old 2010-09-21, 15:55   Link #2486
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Okay, found it, in Episode 18 of Strikers, starting around the 10 minute mark.

Quote:
Genya: "The basic idea behind the "Combat Cyborgs" was to produce a humanoid combat machine. This research has been around for a long time, and by "a long time" I mean since the old era. A mechanical weapon created in the form of a human... the idea's been developed on many planets and in many forms, but there aren't many examples of it actually working. But then the project underwent a dramatic evolution. It was only 25 years ago..."

Chrono: "The combination of machinery and biotechnology is nothing special. Artificial organs and bones have been around for a long time. But..."

Carim: "The function of those is to compensate for lost ability; it's a long way from "strengthening" that ability. There are also problems with rejection and maintenance issues during long use."

Genya: "But the combat cyborgs were different, you see... Those bastards got around that problem by screwing around with the genetic code of their subjects.

(Nanoha, Signum, and Vita gasp)

Fate: "During birth, they would become the base for the Combat Cyborgs, able to accept mechanical body parts; children, but modified. He created technology to allow that to happen."

Carim: "That would be Jail Scaglietti."
Then he goes on to talk about his wife finding Subaru and Ginga.

Edit to add: Nanya, what you posted doesn't contradict. All of the combat cyborgs were engineered at birth, and some gain special abilities out of it, like Sein. But what I was getting at, was that the Combat Cyborg process can't be applied to humans born normally. He has to tweak them sometime before they are born, genetically engineer them to be able to accept cyborg parts.
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Old 2010-09-22, 18:44   Link #2487
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
But what I was getting at, was that the Combat Cyborg process can't be applied to humans born normally. He has to tweak them sometime before they are born, genetically engineer them to be able to accept cyborg parts.
Surprisingly decent writing, as it explains why (a) they can't just build an army of Combat Cyborgs anytime soon by installing the now-working-just-fine tech in their existing C-rankers, and (b) why there are laws making it illegal, since the process demands tailor-making kids to fill the spot.
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Old 2010-09-28, 18:34   Link #2488
shiroi mahotsukai
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"Tweaking" unborn children is probably on of the most contemptable things i can think of offhand.

Also can one be born a cyborg, i mean is it physically possible. cost, materials and technology notwithstanding.
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Old 2010-09-28, 19:04   Link #2489
Keroko
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Can an unaltered person become a cyborg? Yes. Can an unaltered person become a cyborg more powerful then his original form? No.

There's a fine distinction made in StrikerS between replacing parts of your body with technology and replacing parts of your body with technology in order to get stronger. The former is possible, the later though requires genetic altering.
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Old 2010-09-29, 05:01   Link #2490
Koveras Alvane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
There's a fine distinction made in StrikerS between replacing parts of your body with technology and replacing parts of your body with technology in order to get stronger. The former is possible, the later though requires genetic altering.
On that matter: is it possible that Laguna Granscenic is a cyborg (with an artificial replacement eye)?
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Old 2010-09-29, 10:03   Link #2491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane View Post
On that matter: is it possible that Laguna Granscenic is a cyborg (with an artificial replacement eye)?
Depends on your definition of cyborg. She wouldn't be a combat cyborg at least. And her eye replacement would be something that functions as a normal eye. You can make something to replace a part you lost, but you can't make it better without running into problems.
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Old 2010-09-29, 12:14   Link #2492
Rising Dragon
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Assuming, of course, Laguna opted to have her eye replaced at all. After she revealed the eye to her brother, it looked kinda unseeing; it was definitely colored differently than her other eye. Kinda made me think that any scarring around it may have healed but she still can't see out of it.

(now waiting for canon to come and say "lol wrong" to me)
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Old 2010-09-29, 12:30   Link #2493
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane View Post
On that matter: is it possible that Laguna Granscenic is a cyborg (with an artificial replacement eye)?
By the basic definition of the word, yes. To keep things simple, she's a cyborg, but not a combat cyborg.
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Old 2010-09-29, 14:17   Link #2494
Koveras Alvane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Assuming, of course, Laguna opted to have her eye replaced at all. After she revealed the eye to her brother, it looked kinda unseeing; it was definitely colored differently than her other eye. Kinda made me think that any scarring around it may have healed but she still can't see out of it.

(now waiting for canon to come and say "lol wrong" to me)
That's what my question was about, actually. ^^ Did she just have her eye healed but blind, or did she replace it with an artificial eyeball that grants her at least some sight, or did they simply stuck a glass replica into her eye socket.

AFAIK, we know so little about her, no details about her eye are available in the canon... But I wasn't sure so I asked.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
By the basic definition of the word, yes. To keep things simple, she's a cyborg, but not a combat cyborg.
Yes, that's what I meant. ^^
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Old 2010-10-01, 11:05   Link #2495
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If have some questions regarding the Arc-en-Ciel.

"It is a "magic cannon" (魔導砲 madōhō) capable of destroying everything within a 100 km radius of the target point by distorting the time-space of that region"

The problem is:
  1. From what I've seen at A's and StrikerS, both time shows the weapon being fired towards a target distanced less than 100km away from the firing ships.
  2. It took 6 TSAB ships to destroy the Cradle despite the "destroys everything" claim

Can anyone explain these?

Another one: has it been stated whether the Arc-en-Ciel can be affected by AMF or not?
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Old 2010-10-01, 11:25   Link #2496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
If have some questions regarding the Arc-en-Ciel.

"It is a "magic cannon" (魔導砲 madōhō) capable of destroying everything within a 100 km radius of the target point by distorting the time-space of that region"

The problem is:
From what I've seen at A's and StrikerS, both time shows the weapon being fired towards a target distanced less than 100km away from the firing ships.
It took 6 TSAB ships to destroy the Cradle despite the "destroys everything" claim

Can anyone explain these?

Another one: has it been stated whether the Arc-en-Ciel can be affected by AMF or not?
Well, you really can't tell distance in all the cases with ships firing things, so I wouldn't go too heavily by that. Also, keep in mind that 10 years is a lot of time for weapons development. We see it partially when the Arc is fired on Clyde's ship; it looks more like photon torpedo. When it's fired 10 years later by Lindy's ship, it's a beam.

It's never stated exactly what the 6 ships fired on the Cradle, but keep in mind that another 10 years have gone by; it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the Arc was adapted into whatever weapon they fired. Call it the descendant of the Arc, or a main cannon, it doesn't make much difference. It's a white beam much like the Arc that Lindy fired, though, which makes it a bit more similar to that, then Lindy's shot was to Graham's shot on Clyde's ship.

Partially tying it into your last question about AMF, 6 years after that, we have the Wolfram firing it's main cannon named "Agustus" against the Huck's ship, but the magic nullification means it doesn't do any damage. So it would be a logical deduction that AMF would affect the Arc, or whatever weapon systems may be descended from that. The TSAB is big on not using mass-based weapons, so any weapons they do use would be magic-based.

That's pretty much what we know and don't know. Anything more would be theory, but I've always held the theory that the Arc weapon underwent development and 10 years later, was incorporated as a main cannon weapon system aboard ships. Perhaps scaled down a tad, keeping most of the destructive power but dramatically lessening any dangerous effects (it was noted that the Arthra would have to pull back to avoid any side effects when Lindy fired).
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Old 2010-10-01, 11:31   Link #2497
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Nah, most likely AeC is strategic weapon for special cases. I highly doubt that TSAB ships were weaponless without it. So in final of Strikers it wasn't anything like AeC, just normal main cannons. Also by principle AeC works (similar to Dimension Eater from Macross F) even toned down version of AeC would require only one hit on Cradle, so ship beams were not anything like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
From what I've seen at A's and StrikerS, both time shows the weapon being fired towards a target distanced less than 100km away from the firing ships.
IIRC ship teleports away after firing AeC. Which also shows that it's quite useless against high speed moving targets or targets with teleport.
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Old 2010-10-01, 18:32   Link #2498
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Originally Posted by al103 View Post

IIRC ship teleports away after firing AeC. Which also shows that it's quite useless against high speed moving targets or targets with teleport.
Again supporting the "strategic" rather than "tactical" use (and probably why the Wolfram wasn't equipped with an Arc--they'd have to incapacitate the Huckebein's engines in order to Arc the ship, and if they could do that then odds are they'd have the firepower to not need to Arc the ship). Plus, I really doubt the fleet was firing an AeC against the Cradle, given that the Cradle was apparently hovering over the planet (heck, the whole TSAB's) capital city at the time and characters were easily able to fly up and down between the ship and the ground. Arcing the Cradle would have...bad consequences.
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Old 2010-10-01, 18:46   Link #2499
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This is all just speculation, though. We have no way to know for sure. Plus, the cradle was as far above the planet as the core of the Book of Darkness was; plenty of safe area. Note that the characters left the ship long before it reached orbit, so there was time there for it to leave the atmosphere, at least far enough that the ground wasn't threatened. Given the last shot before they fired, I'd definitely say it was well above 100k.

All we know for sure is that the Arc is a white beam, and the ships fired a white beam. Anything else is guesswork. And my guesswork is that if it wasn't an Arc type weapon, it was a weapon related to it.

Also, it wasn't said specifically that the Arthra teleported. Lindy just ordered it to move after firing. Imagine of that what you will.

Although, if we're going to guess, I wouldn't say the AeC isn't limited to strategic uses; when it fires, the beam certainly moves fast enough to hit a moderately moving target.

However, this isn't a thread for guesses.
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Old 2010-10-02, 05:11   Link #2500
Keroko
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アルカンシェル Ė Arc-en-Ciel
(Aís DVD6)
A magic cannon equipped to the Administration Bureauís larger warships.
Boasting the highest destructive power within the Administration Bureauís naval armory, use of the Arc-en-Ciel is only allowed in certain conditions or against certain targets, and only when specific requirements are fulfilled. The projectile has nearly no destructive power itself; instead, a short time after impact, a spatial distortion and a subsequent annihilating reaction is generated. As the area of effect is even greater than the maximum firing range, withdrawing to a safe location after firing by Transferring is an absolute must.

"Absolute must" is pretty definite, and since Chrono didn't retreat, what they fired obviously wasn't an Arc.
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