AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Nanoha

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-10-03, 08:58   Link #921
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Obviously, I did not mean they'll use it against regular old Lost Logia C or regular criminal B. However, if you believe the potential harm levels claimed (because we never actually saw it, remember, we are just constantly told about this) for high-level Lost Logia, yes, even a 100km AOE weapon might be a better option.

If things deteoriate to the point where it needs a weapon of such destructive power, what difference does it make that the Arc-level blow is delivered from a ship or from the ground?

For your nuke analogy, think of a scenario where a bioagent that has the capability to wipe out at least the United States population was released, and the only weapon that will reliably incinerate the bioagent happens to be the holocaustic temperatures of a nuke.

Further, for the morality and priorities of even a recruit-poster good Midchildran, you can just remember how close we were to being nuked in Nanoha A's. True, it is Midchildra, not the unimportant little 97th, but it still says much about their mentality on such matters. It is a mix of their belief in the high danger levels of Lost Logia and a general sense of amorality over vaporizing ~100 million people (or more, depending on the secondary zones of effect). Oh, and let's not forget Graham's "brilliant" idea of activating the oh-so-dangerous BoD right on his home planet. Maybe he quietly hates Japanese and thinks if things deteoriate and Arcie wipes them out it is a good thing... but I digress.

Finally, you completely ignore the possibilities of yield or aiming control to reduce collateral damage.

Of course, you are right that the People, who are known for their inability to face up to the extreme measures for Worst Case scenarios, will raise a big squawk about such things. Sometimes, the government does have to make decisions that are beyond the understanding of the average civilian.

Regius: Ultimately, I don't really agree that Regius is a prick or a bureaucrat at all. He sees a major weakness in his units operation, and seeing that his superiors are not getting him what he needs for the job, tries to remedy the deficiency himself with Einherjar and the Combat Cyborg project. Right or wrong, he's a personal of substantial moral courage.

What Regius ultimately hopes for, probably, is a system with both Einherjar and Combat Cyborgs, with contingents on all worlds. With the Combat Cyborgs supporting the (apparently very few) S-mages the Ground Forces has, and with Einherjar as the final backstop.

By increasing the capability of the Ground Forces, it reduces the chance of Einherjar would have to be brought into play, but the capability is there and ready.

Parochialism aside, Einherjar would also have a faster response time than a ship from HQ. What little we know about Lost Logia running amok seems to suggest they are often supercritical types - the longer you leave it out of control generally the harder they are to stop. So, by having the ground based unit fire quickly rather than slowly call in a ship (or worse, maybe they have to install the Arcenciel first... or wait while Sailing Force HQ slowly sorts through its priorities), you can reduce the firepower used and reduce the total harm, even in a worst case scenario.
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-03, 09:03   Link #922
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Wouldn't that assume the Einherjar is a lot cheaper than a ship, so that it can be built everywhere?
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-03, 09:12   Link #923
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
An assumption yes, but IMO a probable one. All else being equal, ground based systems are easier to build, support and run compared to space. You can spread out more, draw more power, rely more on local infrastructure ... etc.
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-03, 09:17   Link #924
Comartemis
He Who Smites Shippers
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 27
Quote:
Further, for the morality and priorities of even a recruit-poster good Midchildran, you can just remember how close we were to being nuked in Nanoha A's. True, it is Midchildra, not the unimportant little 97th, but it still says much about their mentality on such matters. It is a mix of their belief in the high danger levels of Lost Logia and a general sense of amorality over vaporizing ~100 million people (or more, depending on the secondary zones of effect). Oh, and let's not forget Graham's "brilliant" idea of activating the oh-so-dangerous BoD right on his home planet. Maybe he quietly hates Japanese and thinks if things deteoriate and Arcie wipes them out it is a good thing... but I digress.
Um.... what? Are you trying to accuse the TSAB--who willingly discarded weapons that worked perfectly well for killing things in favor of non-lethal magical arms--of being unconcerned with collateral damage and catastrophic loss of life, whether on their home planet or elsewhere?

*Comar headdesks repeatedly at ark's continued habit of reading into things waaaaaay too much*

Guess I can't argue with the rest of your points though, although I share Anh_Minh's question as to whether it's cheaper to build ground installations on all planets in the bureau rather than simply rely on ship-based AeCs. You'd also have to build multiple installations in strategic locations to ensure interlinking coverage patterns so you can hit a planet-killing Logia anywhere on the surface. Much easier and more cost-effective to rely on the navy, methinks.
__________________

Kill the Darkfic.
Burn the Angst.
Purge the Bad End.
Comartemis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-03, 09:30   Link #925
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
An assumption yes, but IMO a probable one. All else being equal, ground based systems are easier to build, support and run compared to space. You can spread out more, draw more power, rely more on local infrastructure ... etc.
Well, maybe one Einherjar is cheaper than one battleship, sure. But cheap enough to build everywhere? If it was that cheap, wouldn't they have built some long ago?
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-03, 11:48   Link #926
Proto
Knowledge is the solution
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: U. of Pittsburgh, Previously in Mexico City.
Age: 29
It's the eternal discussion of letting every small administration branch having its own military power, or relying on a strong, central administrated force. Giving ground to air ion cannon to every satellite planet would equate to diminishing Midchilda power, and history tells us that the higher ups have never been fond of that idea
Proto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-05, 00:22   Link #927
Kikaifan
Blazing General
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Oh, and let's not forget Graham's "brilliant" idea of activating the oh-so-dangerous BoD right on his home planet. Maybe he quietly hates Japanese and thinks if things deteoriate and Arcie wipes them out it is a good thing... but I digress.
I think it's pretty funny that you laud Regius and trash Graham when Graham's actions are by far the more excusable, since the people he endangered were going to be in the same situation a few weeks or months down the line if he hadn't done anything anyway.

Quote:
What Regius ultimately hopes for, probably, is a system with both Einherjar and Combat Cyborgs, with contingents on all worlds. With the Combat Cyborgs supporting the (apparently very few) S-mages the Ground Forces has, and with Einherjar as the final backstop.

By increasing the capability of the Ground Forces, it reduces the chance of Einherjar would have to be brought into play, but the capability is there and ready.

Parochialism aside, Einherjar would also have a faster response time than a ship from HQ.
Since you seem to be a military buff, I'm going to assume you've heard "He who defends everything defends nothing."

Just how do you reach the conclusion that it is a better policy to build enough guns to shoot everywhere in the known multiverse than to send ships to deal with problems as they arise? Did you mean just on all major worlds or something?

Plus if the politics military deployment in the Nanohaverse are anything like they are on our Earth a fleet in orbit is going to be much more politically palatable on some worlds than a big ground installation.
__________________

Last edited by Kikaifan; 2008-10-05 at 13:12.
Kikaifan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-05, 20:15   Link #928
Vivio Testarossa
I'm Back
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Land of Lincoln
How tall is Vivio (in both her "normal" (child form), and "adult" form?
__________________

Thank for help with signature Evil Rick.
Vivio Testarossa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-06, 02:27   Link #929
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
[QUOTE=Kikaifan;1962712]I think it's pretty funny that you laud Regius and trash Graham when Graham's actions are by far the more excusable, since the people he endangered were going to be in the same situation a few weeks or months down the line if he hadn't done anything anyway.

Actually, had Graham done nothing, the whole near-disaster looks as if it'll have ended around Ep5.

Still, it isn't the CONOPS of sacrificing one person that's so bad. It is the little detail where he chooses to perform his forced activation in a populated area.

Besides, at least Regius did not knowingly endanger >100 million people, or even a whole planet when he started his Einherjar and Combat Cyborg projects. The same seems not to apply for Graham. He also had a more strategic focus (peace of all areas under jurisdiction of GF) than Graham, who despite his superior rank obsesses over one LL.

Quote:
Since you seem to be a military buff, I'm going to assume you've heard "He who defends everything defends nothing."
Yes, it is in fact one of the criticisms for MGLN StrikerS.

But real military buffs know better than to rely on one axiom. The decision is made based on actual conditions, not on one axiom (which almost always has a counteracting axiom, such as "Enemies tend to find out your weak spots and pour through them."

Quote:
Just how do you reach the conclusion that it is a better policy to build enough guns to shoot everywhere in the known multiverse than to send ships to deal with problems as they arise? Did you mean just on all major worlds or something?
If those ships react fast, that's less of a problem. But we all have poked fun at their real response speed, and I bet it isn't so funny for Regius. A mobile defense is only a good idea if it is fast enough!

Quote:
Plus if the politics military deployment in the Nanohaverse are anything like they are on our Earth a fleet in orbit is going to be much more politically palatable on some worlds than a big ground installation.
And that's one of the reasons why Regius deserves praise. Both Graham and Regius have projects, that if discovered in mid-course, will likely get attacked at regardless of the soundness of their respective plans. But while Graham is very likely to win adulation at the end if he makes it (and he barely got a wrist-slap at the end of the real outcome), and in any case it is a fait accompli, Regius is likely to be pecked even if his plan succeeds.
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-06, 03:30   Link #930
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivio Testarossa View Post
How tall is Vivio (in both her "normal" (child form), and "adult" form?
I don't have any numbers, but there was a chart posted few pages back with size comparisons of the cast:



Vivio is going to get bigger then any of the main cast members. Looks like I'll have to adjust my plans for Syn being the tallest of the two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, had Graham done nothing, the whole near-disaster looks as if it'll have ended around Ep5.
Hardly. Yami no Sho has defense programs in place in case it gets captured. It'll adsorb its current master and reincarnate elsewhere, so all that would have happened in ep5 had Graham done nothing was put everyone back to square one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Still, it isn't the CONOPS of sacrificing one person that's so bad. It is the little detail where he chooses to perform his forced activation in a populated area.

Besides, at least Regius did not knowingly endanger >100 million people, or even a whole planet when he started his Einherjar and Combat Cyborg projects. The same seems not to apply for Graham. He also had a more strategic focus (peace of all areas under jurisdiction of GF) than Graham, who despite his superior rank obsesses over one LL.
No, but he did doom children to grow up to be nothing more then weapons without a choice, which are currently only a dozen, but would eventually become hundreds. I'm pretty sure that falls along the lines of forced servitude, if not slavery.

Also, Graham was obsessed over 'one Lost Logia' that killed millions for milenia and showed no sign of stopping. That sort of puts things into perspective, no? Graham and Regius are two sides of the same coin: Both of them wanted to protect what they held dear to the point where they wanted to make unethical sacrifices.
__________________

Last edited by Keroko; 2008-10-06 at 03:43.
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-06, 07:28   Link #931
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Hardly. Yami no Sho has defense programs in place in case it gets captured. It'll adsorb its current master and reincarnate elsewhere, so all that would have happened in ep5 had Graham done nothing was put everyone back to square one.
Agreed, but at least 100 million people probably won't be threatened. We treat as an axiom that Cure is better than suppression, but considering this cure, one might want to make an exception.

And as I said, it wasn't so much his cure plan in general. It was the part where he had to arrange the whole thing to happen in one of the most densely populated nations in the world. Can't he do his op in Siberia or Far North Canada or Alaska where relatively few have to die even if he has to cut a 200km wide hemisphere out of his homeworld in the end? Can't he teleport her to at least somewhere out of town before he starts his little activation ritual?

Quote:
No, but he did doom children to grow up to be nothing more then weapons without a choice, which are currently only a dozen, but would eventually become hundreds. I'm pretty sure that falls along the lines of forced servitude, if not slavery.
I think this ethical argument actually came up in earlier discussions about Regius. Let's say it becomes thousands so we can place a platoon on every "Management" world and have a few companies to split up between TSAB warships on the side.

Let me put it this way. If we didn't do this, and something happened, and ultimately they had to Arc a hundred million people, would you like to be the one that stands in front of the survivors to say "Yeah, we could probably have stopped this if only we agreed to Combat Cyborgs. But at that time it seemed so unethical..."

Quote:
Also, Graham was obsessed over 'one Lost Logia' that killed millions for milenia and showed no sign of stopping. That sort of puts things into perspective, no? Graham and Regius are two sides of the same coin: Both of them wanted to protect what they held dear to the point where they wanted to make unethical sacrifices.
Uh, you don't even know it killed "millions" for "millenia". And remember no matter how powerful that Lost Logia is, it is still ONE LOST LOGIA. One can see its real importance by the Fleets and Armies the TSAB sent to stop it ... wait. OK, I'll agree they sent a Fleet last time, but this time, it rated one ship and one company.

Regius is planning to stop many.
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-06, 08:25   Link #932
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Hopefully, not many. However, they do seem to lose a bunch of people on a demi-regular basis (based on Ep24). If that's the case, Keroko can just stand and explain to each unfortunate family about the reason why their sons have to die.
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-06, 08:30   Link #933
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
We probably should take this to a discussion thread. We've been hypothesizing for quite a few posts now.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-09, 19:45   Link #934
Silvance
Storm Vanguard
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Type-00
Hi guys, I just wanted to ask some questions regarding SSX if its okay XD.

1. Does Cross Mirage still have its Two Hand mode?
2. Is there anything special about Cross Mirage's new form?
3. Did Caro and Elio went back to their wild life preservation duties after the incidents in SSX?
4. Did Teana learned any new spells?

Anyway, I apologize if any of these have been mentioned before or if I caused any inconvenience on your part. I'm just in a hurry since I managed to have some free time today to write the continuation of my fanfic.
Silvance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-10, 01:07   Link #935
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
1. Yes.
2. It's like Excellion Mode, a more powerful form. I can't recall it's name though.
3. -can't recall (didn't pay much attention to those two)
4. If you count Starlight Breaker, yes.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-10, 02:46   Link #936
Kha
~ I Do ~
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 28
3. Apparently yes; they went back to work on Supools, to Fate's disappointment (a little granted).
__________________
Kha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-16, 08:26   Link #937
Nya~n
umbrella moe~♥
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: huh wha-?
Cross Mirage's 3rd form:
If my katakana interpretation skills doesn't fail me(which it does frequently), then I believe it's called "Blazer". Here's the poster. It says [ブレイザ―] in the description for Cross Mirage.'

SSX Questions:
1. Is it stated which magical path Vivio takes? Her biological heritage of being an Ancient Belka Knight? Follow her mamas' path of being Mid-Childen mage? Neo-Belkan Knight like Erio? Neo Belkan mage like Subaru? Or take a leaf out of Hayate's book(pun NOT intended), and become a Mage Knight?

2. By then, what kind of style does she take? Offensive like most of the character's we've seen? Supportive like Shamal, or research like Yuuno?

3. What kind of unit in the TSAB are the numbers assigned to?

4. Is Subaru still in the disaster relief squad as depicted in StrikerS epilogue? If not, then what happened that she had to get involved SSX?

5. Same question for Erio and Caro.

[ /rant ]
__________________
Nya~n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-16, 09:01   Link #938
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
1. That was never actually revealed as far as I know.

2. At the moment she seems quite skillful at Yuuno's data gathering magic, but we don't know what her approach to combat will be. She's still in school in SSX, and I don't think they're teaching advanced magic combat in school.

3. An investigation unit, led by Ginga. Zafira acts as Ginga's trainer in the investigator field.

4. She was disaster relief, and buildings were on fire. Subaru dived in and found Expillia, things spiraled of from there.

5. Invited for a reunion, if I recall correctly.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-16, 10:56   Link #939
PhoenixG
Hi-Eternal
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Backyard of Moriya shrine
Age: 29
Well Vivio is studing both style. I won't be surprised if she uses both style when she grow up. At school she learns belka and Nanoha and Yuuno teach Vivio Mid-childa.
PhoenixG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-16, 22:40   Link #940
Silvance
Storm Vanguard
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Type-00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nya~n View Post
Cross Mirage's 3rd form:
If my katakana interpretation skills doesn't fail me(which it does frequently), then I believe it's called "Blazer". Here's the poster. It says [ブレイザ―] in the description for Cross Mirage.'
I checked the poster and yes, its called Blazer Mode. TY for the info XD. Funny though since in my fanfic, Teana has a move called "Phantom Blazer." LOL, gotta love coincidence sometimes >_<.
Silvance is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.