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Old 2009-05-12, 13:24   Link #1281
Keroko
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Tsuzuki writes it I believe. The Negima Neo guy draws it.
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Old 2009-05-12, 13:28   Link #1282
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Tsuzuki writes it I believe. The Negima Neo guy draws it.
Yes, he's drawing it, but I'm not sure if he's not in charge of the writing too.
I think I read somewhere that one of the mangas had a different writer, but I'm not sure, maybe I'm wrong.

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Old 2009-05-12, 22:44   Link #1283
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Do we have a more especific clasification of the type of mages?

We could tell that Nanoha and Tia are ranged and that Fate and Subaru are close combat, but what about Caro and Lutecia? Maybe summoners? Or Hayate? Could she be clasified as Caster?
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Old 2009-05-13, 02:03   Link #1284
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They do. It was explained in episode 6 of StrikerS.

There are 4 'types' of mages: Front Attacker, Guard Wing, Center Guard and Full Back.

Front Attackers are the tanks, the guards, the protectors. They are the first line of defense and are there to make sure the enemy focuses their attention on them and leaves their casters alone. They have high melee and defensive skills. Subaru, Vita, Signum and Zafira fall under this class.

Guard Wing are the second line of defense. Their defense is lower than their Front Attacker counterparts, but their high mobility allows them to attack and support from any position. Erio and Fate are the prime examples of this class.

Center Guard are the shooters, the gunners, the ranged casters. They stand in the middle of the line and are tasked to engage in mid- and long ranged battles faster than anyone. Nanoha, Hayate and Teana fall under this class.

Full Back are the support mages, those that stand on the back of the lines to provide support for their allies. Boosting magic power, the attack power of spells and utilizing binding magic are trademark skills of a Full Back mage. A Full Back mage may or may not have high defensive spells or summoning. Yuuno, Shamal and Caro are prime examples of this class.
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Old 2009-05-13, 09:25   Link #1285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
They do. It was explained in episode 6 of StrikerS.

There are 4 'types' of mages: Front Attacker, Guard Wing, Center Guard and Full Back.

Front Attackers are the tanks, the guards, the protectors. They are the first line of defense and are there to make sure the enemy focuses their attention on them and leaves their casters alone. They have high melee and defensive skills. Subaru, Vita, Signum and Zafira fall under this class.

Guard Wing are the second line of defense. Their defense is lower than their Front Attacker counterparts, but their high mobility allows them to attack and support from any position. Erio and Fate are the prime examples of this class.

Center Guard are the shooters, the gunners, the ranged casters. They stand in the middle of the line and are tasked to engage in mid- and long ranged battles faster than anyone. Nanoha, Hayate and Teana fall under this class.

Full Back are the support mages, those that stand on the back of the lines to provide support for their allies. Boosting magic power, the attack power of spells and utilizing binding magic are trademark skills of a Full Back mage. A Full Back mage may or may not have high defensive spells or summoning. Yuuno, Shamal and Caro are prime examples of this class.
Owee... thanks, that's a good information to work with

Edit: Wanted to give you a cookie but prevention monkey stole it Maybe later when I catch it XP
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Old 2009-05-13, 09:59   Link #1286
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IMHO, those terms seem to be more technically "positions" than "types" (Center Guard and Full Back referring to football positions for example).
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Old 2009-05-13, 10:13   Link #1287
Keroko
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Well, if you want 'types' as in 'what type of magic' then we have the melee/shooter/support/summoner types. The problem with these types however is that unlike the positions, the labels are more vague. For example, Fate and Vita could be labeled as both shooters and melee, so they're not really accurate descriptions of a mages capabilities. Unlike the positions, which clearly lay down what a certain mage can do.
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Old 2009-05-13, 18:25   Link #1288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Well, if you want 'types' as in 'what type of magic' then we have the melee/shooter/support/summoner types. The problem with these types however is that unlike the positions, the labels are more vague. For example, Fate and Vita could be labeled as both shooters and melee, so they're not really accurate descriptions of a mages capabilities. Unlike the positions, which clearly lay down what a certain mage can do.
Except that the positions depend on a certain tactical scheme existing to describe their actions. When the tactics change, the definitions change. For example, you defined Zafira as a Front Attacker, but in the final battle of A's, he operated as more of a support mage, with Yuuno, Arf, and Shamal. And Tia, though defined as a Center (by Nanoha, nonetheless), spends much of her field time in melee combat, and as an Enforcer would fill the same job and hence the same tactical role as Fate.

Likewise, the positions don't really define the mages' abilities so much as they identify certain specific attributes that they possess. For example, both Vita and Signum possess considerable ranged attack abilities, while Subaru does not. Tia's illusionist skill is unique to her among the known characters. "Guard Wing" seems to be defined by "Can Cast Sonic Move." And "Fullback" seems to mean, "Can't Directly Zap the Enemy" but encompasses a large range of combat capabilities--defensive magic, binding magic, healing magic, and summoning magic. Saying that Yuuno and Caro are both fullbacks tells me nothing about what they can do except that if I get into a fight with them someone else will be doing the actual hitting...

(On the other hand, my impression of this scheme may be due to my gut reaction to the names of the positions when Nanoha was outlining them in StrikerS, namely, "So who's playing goalie?" But even so, the situation does remind me somewhat of saying: "What position is she?" "Well, if we were playing basketball, she'd be a shooting guard." "That's great, but we're playing lacrosse.")
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Old 2009-05-14, 00:01   Link #1289
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As far as "types", we don't have much in the way of clear distinctions.

There's obviously the Mid vs. Belka distinction. There's certain characteristics of each (Belka's combat-oriented, to be sure), but we don't ever hear that this or that is "impossible" for either of the two systems, so there's a lot of overlap. They have, for example, very similar barriers. The two aren't mutually exclusive - there's "Neo Belkan", which incorporates a lot of Mid, and Hayate has a variety of both types of magic from the Book. Unique to the Belkan system is the Unison Device, though we don't know precisely if it can ONLY be Belkan or whether that's just all we've seen.

We only know a couple of summoners. It seems like a different class of magic, but Lutecia is still capable of offensive action, even if Caro can't. The kind of augmentation spells that Caro uses aren't unique to summoners either - Sonic Move, for example.

The Inherent Skills that are used by combat cyborgs are a completely different class of magic. Much less flexibility, of course. Nor does the possession of an IS mean you can't use other magic (Subaru).

Other than that, who knows? There could be a bunch of other types of magic, all lumped in with "Lost Logia". It's also possible that other completely different systems of magic could be generated - clearly Mid and Belkan styles show that there are multiple methods of producing similar effects.
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Old 2009-05-14, 00:08   Link #1290
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
but Lutecia is still capable of offensive action, even if Caro can't. The kind of augmentation spells that Caro uses aren't unique to summoners either - Sonic Move, for example.
Caro actually has a couple of offensive spells in her arsenal, which she uses against Lutecia in the final battles: Wing Shooter for example, where she pelts the enemy with a rain of bullets.
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Old 2009-05-14, 02:03   Link #1291
Keroko
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Except that the positions depend on a certain tactical scheme existing to describe their actions. When the tactics change, the definitions change.
True, but it's not often that they do, and if they do it is only slightly and temporarily so.

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
For example, you defined Zafira as a Front Attacker, but in the final battle of A's, he operated as more of a support mage, with Yuuno, Arf, and Shamal.
No, he still fulfilled the Front Attacker role. He engaged the enemy and kept it from firing at his allies. Just because he didn't do so in melee does not mean he did not fulfill the Front Attacker role.

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And Tia, though defined as a Center (by Nanoha, nonetheless), spends much of her field time in melee combat, and as an Enforcer would fill the same job and hence the same tactical role as Fate.
She spends most of her screen time getting out of melee. We only see her guard against strikes and try to get an advantageous position, but never engage in extended melee. Just like Nanoha, she may do a few strikes and blocks, but when it comes down to it she will always opt for ranged over melee.

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Likewise, the positions don't really define the mages' abilities so much as they identify certain specific attributes that they possess. For example, both Vita and Signum possess considerable ranged attack abilities, while Subaru does not. Tia's illusionist skill is unique to her among the known characters. "Guard Wing" seems to be defined by "Can Cast Sonic Move." And "Fullback" seems to mean, "Can't Directly Zap the Enemy" but encompasses a large range of combat capabilities--defensive magic, binding magic, healing magic, and summoning magic. Saying that Yuuno and Caro are both fullbacks tells me nothing about what they can do except that if I get into a fight with them someone else will be doing the actual hitting...
Agreed, they don't really explain the full capabilities of mages (though I disagree with Guard Wing defining the use of Sonic Move and Fullback not being able to directly zap -they have soft zaps-) but then neither do any of the other terms we have heard so far. However these terms give a more accurate depiction of what to expect when facing them in combat.

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As far as "types", we don't have much in the way of clear distinctions.
... That wasn't exactly what Rick was referring to.

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The Inherent Skills that are used by combat cyborgs are a completely different class of magic. Much less flexibility, of course. Nor does the possession of an IS mean you can't use other magic (Subaru).
Actually, Inherent Skills aren't magic at all. These skills use a completely different source of energy.
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Old 2009-05-14, 12:20   Link #1292
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I understand that IS aren't magic in the sense that they don't use the same kind of energy that Mid/Belkan magic does. But at the same time, they're not purely technological, right? (Need to watch the end of Strikers again, it's been a while...) Several of the effects there can be explained away technologically, but not all of them (Otto's beams, Cinque's explosives, and Dieci's huge sniper cannon which also fires gas?) Or rather, for some of them to be explained technologically, there's not a lot left to say "this is this cyborg's Inherent Skill" as opposed to "this cyborg is carrying around a big sniper cannon". To the extent that there's something non-technological going on, we can chalk it up to some kind of magic.
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Old 2009-05-14, 12:53   Link #1293
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Well, their energy was explicitly described as 'not magic' so it's definitely not a 'different kind of magic.' Magic in Nanoha seems to rely one single one form of energy, and anything that uses a different form of energy to achieve similar results is not magic.
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Old 2009-05-14, 17:27   Link #1294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko
No, he still fulfilled the Front Attacker role. He engaged the enemy and kept it from firing at his allies. Just because he didn't do so in melee does not mean he did not fulfill the Front Attacker role.
Um...maybe when he did his "I won't let you shoot!" Steel Yoke attack to blow up some of the heads, but initially he was standing in line right next to Yuuno and Arf spewing out chain-binding spells to clear the way for all the "I'm XYZ, and this is my attack! Take notes!" strikes. Which themselves further emphasize the point, since they involve three Centers, two Front Attackers, and one Guard Wing all doing exactly the same thing. The point is, that battle required completely different tactical patterns.

Similarly, if I have a four-man team (one of each position) where Yuuno is my fullback, I'm going to have completely different tactics regarding him than I am with Caro as a fullback (particularly in terms of how much indirect offense I can count on out of the position). While the two of them are similar in some of the powers that they don't have (neither, for example, has a hand-to-hand physical attack of any substance), the powers they do have are completely dissimilar.

Maybe what I'm best trying to say here is that, the "four position" system is a good description of a standard Bureau military tactical formation, it doesn't do a good job of describing what the people occupying it really can do. Worse yet, most of the examples we have to work with are among the best of the best, so they have really long lists of spell abilities and so can fulfill multiple roles (Nanoha, for example, has defensive, binding, and area-search abilities as good as anyone's, so she could fill the role of fullback if the squad wanted to use a "four position" deployment and didn't have anyone else for it; similarly I can't think of anyone other than Nanoha who displays better shooting-magic, i.e. Center, skills than Fate does) so calling them X, Y, or Z is more limiting than it is descriptive.

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Well, their energy was explicitly described as 'not magic' so it's definitely not a 'different kind of magic.' Magic in Nanoha seems to rely one single one form of energy, and anything that uses a different form of energy to achieve similar results is not magic.
...or maybe, "not magic" in the sense of "not casting magic spells in the way that a magician does?" I mean, the Gadget Drones aren't "magic" either, but they use artificial Jewel Seeds as their power source? For example, while AMF prevents magicians from summoning and casting magic using their linker cores within the area of effect, it doesn't shut down technology (such as Tia's motorcycle...or heck, how about Uno's computer system? Or turning off the lights as Drones fly down the corridors of RF6)? even though we know that Mid uses "magic" as the source of its technological power. So the cyborgs' Inherent Skills (and indeed, their basic functioning, such as their skeletal structure, muscles, etc.) would be ultimately powered by magic (i.e. an extension of the same principles of MagiTech that the TSAB infrastructure works on), but not actually be magic in the sense that Nanoha's spell abilities are.

Or did you mean that one of the booklets specifically said, "an ability using a different kind"--as opposed to source--"of energy than magic"? Which of course raises the question of what source of power is that and how does it work, because my tolerance for technobabble hand-waves goes way down once it all stops being magic-based on some level or another.

Last edited by DezoPenguin; 2009-05-14 at 17:40.
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Old 2009-05-14, 17:50   Link #1295
Keroko
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No, no, no, I haven't even touched the booklets on this one yet (would be handy if we do though) this is straight from Subaru's mouth.

"They could do all that, and it was another type of energy, not magical power, that they were using."
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Old 2009-05-15, 04:39   Link #1296
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Well there are many ways we can classify mages in MGLN. Using MMO terminology and Hayate's team as an example:

Zafira- tank
Vita- close range DPS and off tank
Signum- close and mid range DPS
Shamal- healing and support
Hayate- long range DPS and AOE

That's a very well balanced team
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Old 2009-05-18, 12:51   Link #1297
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I just heard that somewhere in the bonus materials it's stated, that Vita and Fate had their limiters released during their fights in episode 17. Is that true? It don't really make sense if that's true.
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Old 2009-05-18, 22:41   Link #1298
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What do we have about Orussia? The way they're governed, social situation, etc...

info will be much appreciated.
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Old 2009-05-18, 23:28   Link #1299
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As long as we're on SSX, is there any mention given to what sort of technology grants the Mariage their abilities? Is it some form of viral nanotech or combat cyborg technology or something?
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Old 2009-05-19, 05:58   Link #1300
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What is the whole thing about Nanoha? Is it to befriend an enemy? Or everyone lives happily ever after?
One of the most weirdest thing I saw was Nanoha's blast, it was so power enough to vaporize no. 4 and no. 12? 10? but instead knocks them out.
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