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Old 2009-07-03, 18:46   Link #1461
Anh_Minh
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... Was there one or more woman among the brains? Cause there are people who didn't age gracefully.
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Old 2009-07-03, 23:56   Link #1462
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Ah, but we don't know how they looked before the transplant, do we?
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Old 2009-07-04, 03:35   Link #1463
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All of them sounded distinctly male.
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Old 2009-07-04, 11:22   Link #1464
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Does any source (either episodes in A's or StrikerS, or more likely the DVD booklets or other external manuals) ever identify what non-Arc-en-Ciel weapons are carried by the TSAB fleet? I've got a weapon redesign to come up with for Chapter 21 of Stahlkonigin and need some guidance...
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Old 2009-07-11, 20:39   Link #1465
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Timeline question: Does Nanoha's injury occur before or after the Distant Epilogue of A's?
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Old 2009-07-11, 22:37   Link #1466
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Timeline question: Does Nanoha's injury occur before or after the Distant Epilogue of A's?
Judging by the aparently young age of Nanoha in the flashback on StrikerS, I would say before, although, I'm not very sure. >.>
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Old 2009-07-11, 23:16   Link #1467
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That happened when she was 11.
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Old 2009-07-13, 11:42   Link #1468
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I didn't have the patience to look through all 73 pages so:

1. What's the difference btw. Belka and Midchildean Magic?
2. What's the difference btw. Modern and Ancient Belka Magic?
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Old 2009-07-13, 12:17   Link #1469
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1. Belka has a focus on and greater strength in melee, whereas Mid has a focus on and greater strength in ranged combat.

2. The exact difference between modern and ancient Belkan is unknown. It is known, however, that ancient Belkan is taught directly from teacher to pupil, and thus few people can utilize the style.
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Old 2009-07-13, 22:56   Link #1470
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It's tough to say, really. They have quite a few similar effects, but those effects are accomplished through different magical means (similar enough that the Arthra eventually figured out how to look into a Belkan barrier, but different enough that they had a "wtf?" moment before they worked out how to do it.)

I don't know, strictly speaking, if the "Belka = melee, Mid = ranged" paradigm is true because of strengths of the actual system of magic or just from the preferences of the practitioners. It's clear that, given devices with cartridge systems, there's not a clear advantage from one system to the other (Fate can keep up with Signum; sure, she loses some power, but she's a little girl too!) So theoretically you could have Ancient Belkan

I get the impression that the modern Belka magical system didn't exist around A's, and is somewhat exploratory - kind of like trying to discover how to make Italian dishes from having eaten a really good lasagna and experimenting from there, as opposed to someone following authentic Italian recipes to make the same food. "Ancient" Belkan is damned good stuff, but how much of that is because practically nobody uses it and everyone who DOES is highly trained? However, I'm a lot more familiar with A's than I am with Strikers, so this could be me forgetting some bit of expository from the latter, while playing up the "zomg it's Belkan!" from A's relatively more.

It's clear that either Belkan was almost unheard of in actual use (among Mid-folk, anyway) in A's. Stuff for the history books...

We never get a scene where Belkan magic does anything that Mid magic couldn't, or vice versa. That doesn't mean that it's possible for any given Mid spell to have a Belkan equivalent, but it doesn't rule it out either.
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Old 2009-07-14, 02:59   Link #1471
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You have to remember that Signum was holding back when fighting Fate, and that Fate blatantly said that there was no way she could defeat Signum in a contest of strength. Similarly, Mid clearly has a greater strength in range, Belka user Hayate using Mid circles for her heavy-duty ranged spells is blatant proof of that. Add to that the explanations given in the StrikerS manga and you complete the picture.

Also, Belkan magic being unknown around A's is not true. The Saint Church, a religion focused around Belka, is called the largest religion around the universe. There have also been Modern Belka users around before A's (Quint comes to mind) so the style has been developed prior to A's.

The only people really confused by the whole Belka thing where Nanoha, Fate and Arf. Yuuno and Chrono immediately fire of explanations the moment they're asked, and Amy (who isn't even a Device expert) immediately recognizes the serial number for the Belka cartridge system.
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Old 2009-07-14, 12:37   Link #1472
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Right, but what about the initial encounter with the Belkan barrier in A's? At first they don't know what they're looking at, beyond "hey, this doesn't work like ours does." They spend a few minutes trying to figure it out, finally go "oh! Belkan!" and then they can at least see inside it. That's not something that happens to a competent operator who's seen that kind of effect before, and Amy's good at her job. Therefore, it's not wrong to conclude that at the very least, Amy hadn't ever seen a Belkan barrier before, and she definitely hadn't been trained to recognize one.

For the rest of it, Yuuno spends most of A's in a research library specifically looking up everything about Belka (and, er, if there was a lot known about it by the Church, why would you go to the Library instead?) Chrono's got a slightly better reason than most to know things about the Book of Darkness, considering his family history. And it's not like they hadn't looked at the Cartridge System before RH and Bardiche decided they wanted one - they had just had some high-powered mages get their butts kicked by unknowns using said system, after all.

I wonder how much of the Church thing is a retcon, honestly. I can buy "there are a few Belkan users out there", modern or otherwise; I can't buy "they're all over the place but Amy hadn't seen one." (Also, keep in mind that this is a Japanese production; "it's a large organized religion" in Japanese terms is about the same thing as saying "it's an obscure Pentacostalist sect" in Western terms, when it comes to size and importance.)
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Old 2009-07-14, 13:08   Link #1473
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For the barrier, it was probably just a different algorithm. Think of it like a firewall. Just because you're a hacker and you've seen one, doesn't mean you've seen them all. Which is also why I question your claim of Amy never having seen a Belkan mage. Never having seen a barrier like that does not equate to never having seen a Belkan mage.

Yuuno wasn't so much looking up everything about Belka, he was looking up everything related to the Yami no Sho. And since the Infinite Library is A: under their control, making it easier to access and B: is designed to be a vault of all data, including that from the Church. Given a choice between two sources, one generally goes for the one with the most information. And observing two mages using the cartridge system and knowing the serial number of the system from the top of your head are two vastly different things.

And of course the entire Saint Church is a retcon. The staff of A's probably never even knew StrikerS would ever be made at all. However, it is now established canon, and therefore we have to make the best of it. Doing that, we can explain any rarity of Belka remarks as being aimed at ancient Belka users rather than modern. The Church itself, however, was specifically labeled the largest religion:

Saint Church: The largest religion in Dimensional Space. Originating from the Ancient Belka era, when they received the prophecy, the teachings spread until they became the Saint King religion. Afterwards, due to his great works, now the worship is on the Saint King himself. There are differences in doctrine depending on world and region, but regulations are loose compared to other religions, and is one of the factors for it having many casual believers. The beauty of the churches also makes them famous as tourist attractions, with the HQ in the Belkan Autonomus Region being a traditional tourist attraction and a favorite marriage ceremony location for the young.
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Old 2009-07-14, 17:17   Link #1474
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And of course the entire Saint Church is a retcon. The staff of A's probably never even knew StrikerS would ever be made at all. However, it is now established canon, and therefore we have to make the best of it. Doing that, we can explain any rarity of Belka remarks as being aimed at ancient Belka users rather than modern. The Church itself, however, was specifically labeled the largest religion:
Especially since the autonomous Belkan region is actually located on Mid itself.

One could suggest that it was the events of A's, with the sudden appearance of Ancient Belkan users as well as the effective employment of cartridge systems in Nanoha and Fate's Mid-style devices, that popularized the Belka Cartridge System as a generally-employed tool of the TSAB instead of an obscure historical footnote. Indeed--one might even theorize that one reason the cartridge system was thought to be risky for use was that the TSAB's version was based on incomplete data and analysis of Graf Eisen and Laevatein enabled them to make proper adjustments.
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Old 2009-07-14, 17:32   Link #1475
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Especially since the autonomous Belkan region is actually located on Mid itself.

One could suggest that it was the events of A's, with the sudden appearance of Ancient Belkan users as well as the effective employment of cartridge systems in Nanoha and Fate's Mid-style devices, that popularized the Belka Cartridge System as a generally-employed tool of the TSAB instead of an obscure historical footnote. Indeed--one might even theorize that one reason the cartridge system was thought to be risky for use was that the TSAB's version was based on incomplete data and analysis of Graf Eisen and Laevatein enabled them to make proper adjustments.
Except that Subaru's mother had her own before A's (two of them, in fact). And let's not forget Zest. Or Schach. Plenty of examples of of working cartridge devices.

I think it's best not to think too much on it.
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Old 2009-07-14, 22:53   Link #1476
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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
[/I]One could suggest that it was the events of A's, with the sudden appearance of Ancient Belkan users as well as the effective employment of cartridge systems in Nanoha and Fate's Mid-style devices, that popularized the Belka Cartridge System as a generally-employed tool of the TSAB instead of an obscure historical footnote. Indeed--one might even theorize that one reason the cartridge system was thought to be risky for use was that the TSAB's version was based on incomplete data and analysis of Graf Eisen and Laevatein enabled them to make proper adjustments.
Well, even in StrikerS the cartridge system still isn't a generally-employed tool in the TSAB: the majority of mages still use standard storage devices without cartridge systems. The cartridge system still seems to be pretty much a novelty system for the majority of mages: Good to have, but not important.

Otherwise, I have the same view towards the integration of the Cartridge System as you do

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Except that Subaru's mother had her own before A's (two of them, in fact). And let's not forget Zest. Or Schach. Plenty of examples of of working cartridge devices.
Those facts don't have to contradict what DezoPenguin just theorized - the fact that the cartridge system already had a parts serial number in the TSAB database does suggest that it has been used for devices before (heck, they even know its effects on Intelligent Devices). Like theorized, it may be that the cartridge system pre-A's was a risky system due to incomplete understanding of it, and that only after the Wolkenritter joined did they get first hand experience on analyzing a bonafide Belkan cartridge system, and the knowledge gained would trickle down to the cartridge systems already in use through upgrades and modifications.
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Old 2009-07-15, 01:31   Link #1477
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A possible alternate scenario...

Let's posit at least some development in Mid magical technology over time. We know they do a good amount of research into a lot of different areas, so it's not unreasonable to assume that a state-of-the-art Mid device in, say, StrikerS-time (or even S1-time) is more advanced than a device that was created decades earlier.

Amy says that a Cartridge System isn't something that would ordinarily be installed in something as "delicate" as an Intelligent Device. On its face this is a bit of a silly statement; RH and Bardiche are rough, tough, self-repairing (to an extent), and certainly a lot more resilient than, say, their wielders. (Not that Nanoha and Fate aren't quite resilient!) Amy lectures Nanoha extensively on not using Excelion Mode due to the risk to RH, but RH is seemingly unaffected when it actually comes time to do so, and certainly it's later established that RH's limits are well outside Nanoha's own. My point is that RH, at least, seems to be tougher than Amy's estimate of how tough RH should be.

But does that mean ANY Mid device would have been similarly unaffected? Not necessarily. Early Mid devices (or at least, from a few decades before S1) may not have been as strong and resilient as RH or Bardiche. It's not difficult to conceive of a time where putting a Cartridge System into a Mid device was a fundamentally bad idea, where the chance of disastrous overload was significantly greater.

This is possible even if Belkan users were using cartridge systems the whole time. Not to put too fine a point on it, but the Belkan's warrior ethos is a little different; I don't expect that the risk to their devices would stop them from using a Cartridge System (nor would the devices mind the risk, hey?) The somewhat-less-melee-happy TSAB would be a lot less likely to embrace a system that caused great risk to the devices, especially given that we're talking about -intelligent- devices who are sentient.

So institutionally, the Cartridge System would become "a bad idea" - a way to get your device killed. Looking back over the past of military development, it's at least plausible that such an idea would persist even after the technical capabilities of the devices caught up sufficiently to handle the load. But they're in greater use (though still hardly universal) after the Book of Darkness Incident because, let's not mince words, a couple of Belkans mopped the floor with large numbers of TSAB agents without breaking a sweat, only to be stopped themselves by a couple of little girls using devices with a Cartridge System.

Under this explanation, it wouldn't be so much a matter of learning more about the Cartridge System itself, as it would have been a decisive demonstration that (a) modern devices could handle the load without catastrophe, and (b) the extra oomph is important in a crunch situation.

The best part about this explanation is that it also accounts for the Belkans in the Church (different view on device risk) and Quint as well (her knuckles weren't intelligent, so if they go boom, it doesn't "kill" anyone), and doesn't require everyone in A's to be thoroughly conversant with Belkan capabilities when they clearly weren't. ;p

The only downside is that it puts a restriction on the "mysterious origin" of RH. Bardiche is a modern device, but we honestly don't know RH's history. And we can't say that "only modern devices can take the strain" if RH isn't itself a modern device, or at least pretty recent (or, possibly, REALLY old?)
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Old 2009-07-15, 02:39   Link #1478
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Slight correction, the Wolkies use Armed Devices, not Intelligent Devices. In fact, so far all Belkan users that used cartridges in the series have used Armed Devices rather than Intelligent ones, whereas all Mid users that used cartridges have used Intelligent Devices (as I recall, Cross Mirage was an Intelligent Device, whereas Subaru's knuckles and Strada were Armed Devices. It's not a stretch to believe Armed Devices were designed to withstand this pressure more so than Intelligent Devices, thereby explaining both Amy's 'its dangerous for Intelligent Devices' comment, and their appearance prior to A's.

This also explains why the majority of the TSAB mages don't use cartridges. It's still mostly a Belkan thing, and a rarity among Mid Devices. Since the majority of the mages in the TSAB are Mid users...
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Old 2009-07-15, 22:59   Link #1479
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Oh, thank you all for answering my questions, I have some others pertaining to an OC I've been tinkering around with. Is is required for TSAB personnel to have some magic ability? Also, what is the smallest type of warship that the TSAB uses, and can it be piloted by one person assuming that pilot has a crew on board with it? Thanks!
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Old 2009-07-15, 23:08   Link #1480
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Slight correction, the Wolkies use Armed Devices, not Intelligent Devices. In fact, so far all Belkan users that used cartridges in the series have used Armed Devices rather than Intelligent ones, whereas all Mid users that used cartridges have used Intelligent Devices (as I recall, Cross Mirage was an Intelligent Device, whereas Subaru's knuckles and Strada were Armed Devices. It's not a stretch to believe Armed Devices were designed to withstand this pressure more so than Intelligent Devices, thereby explaining both Amy's 'its dangerous for Intelligent Devices' comment, and their appearance prior to A's.
Out of curiosity (not debate), where is it stated that Revolver Knuckle and Strada (specifically Strada, since Mach Caliber is the speaking member of Subaru's pair) are Armed Devices? (accursed All There In The Manual)

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Oh, thank you all for answering my questions, I have some others pertaining to an OC I've been tinkering around with. Is is required for TSAB personnel to have some magic ability?
No. Indeed, Lt. General Regius Gaiz, one of the highest-ranking members of the Ground Armnaments Service, has no magical ability at all.
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