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View Poll Results: Is this sort "fishing" okay?
Yes. They are just animals... 13 33.33%
No. I don't think that is right. 26 66.67%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-03-12, 22:07   Link #21
Red Herring
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
Humans are also highly evolved mammals and everyday people do dumb stuff that winds up getting them killed...For a dolphin it's running into a net...

So since chicken's are dumb you give a pass to cruelty?? In the jungle a chimpanzee is meal for another creature not as bright, but with the capabilities to kill it..A snake bite will kill a Gorilla, a Boa can capture and squeeze the life out of a supposed human predator..Dolphin's are indeed smart creatures, but they still simply aren't smart enuff to avoid the natural order of things (fortunatley//unfortunatley)...
I love you.

People easily forget how brutal and cruel nature is. Is isn't "The Lion King" out there.

What I despise most here is that this inspires outcry, but things like human trafficking, sexual slavery, and police death squads in Latin America murdering street children go unnoticed. I wonder if any big name celebs that whine about this 'animal cruelty' nonsense give half a damn about humans being treated far worse than this...
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Old 2007-03-12, 22:13   Link #22
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However, the sad thing of all is that we can't stop them. If we do, we would be suppressing the natives' ancient culture. Do we really want to do that? Do we want to stop them because we don't like them killing the cuddly Bottlenose dolphins? In other words, we don't really have the right to stop the peaceful (if you can call them that) people of Faroe Islanders (thanks to Wiki, I found the name of the people who kills for food). It's their culture to eat dolphins. However, if they had a way to kill the dolphins the most humane and pain-free way, they would.
The point isn't about taking the relativist (and comfortable) position of saying "it's their tradition". No, we should see this objectively and say, "Man, they are hungry, let them eat". That's all. No need to dive into the ethically controversial relativist position when it's not really an ethical issue, because it's not hurting any other human being at all.

Were your comment to be made about some sort of practice that harms other human beings, I'd strongly disagree with you.
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Old 2007-03-12, 22:22   Link #23
ImClueless
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Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
Dolphin is a mamal its also highly evovled . Killing poultry is a diffrent thing than killing a highly intelligent being like Dolphin or Seals is unethical . Animal cruelty in all forms should stop . Everyone is titled to a merciful death if not what makes us diffrent from animals . Also we do hunt for game I dont even want to go there
Mammals are not more highly evolved than birds. Its true that dolphins and seals are probably smarter than a chicken, but that simply means that the chicken did not need to be intelligent in order to survive. Besides animals such as pigs and cows are mammals too. Pigs are actually very intelligent; almost as smart as dogs if not smarter (when compared to dumb dogs). I am saying that there are so many people who cry foul at the seals and the dolphins, but aren't willing to give up their hamburgers and sausages. Ethically it is not different. As long as the species isn't endangered people should be allowed to hunt what they need.
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Old 2007-03-12, 22:27   Link #24
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@WanderingKnight: I don't think I never stated that killing the dolphins were ethical. If you want to know, killing the dolphins in the "old fashion" feels unethical for me.

Killing and eating the dolphins personally is the Faroe Islanders' culture. It's a tradition that existed for a long time. So, to restate what I've said before, I don't want to interfere with the Islanders' culture. If anyone went in there saying that "You can't kill the dolphins! They are intelligent and sentient beings..." the Islanders would understand that now. If you went back in time about few centuries ago and said the same thing, they might blow you off.

I'm not saying that the Islanders at the time were bunch of barbarians. Back at the time, we didn't realize that the dolphins were intelligent as us (I think), or any other animals for that matter. So, back at the day, nations created cultures that were unethical because we really didn't know better. Now that we do, we want to be more ethical than our ancestors were.


Also, the poll should have another option. A simple "yes or no" may not be enough for this subject.
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Old 2007-03-12, 22:33   Link #25
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Originally Posted by Knightmare213 View Post
@WanderingKnight: I don't think I never stated that killing the dolphins were ethical. If you want to know, killing the dolphins in the "old fashion" feels unethical for me.

Killing and eating the dolphins personally is the Faroe Islanders' culture. It's a tradition that existed for a long time. So, to restate what I've said before, I don't want to interfere with the Islanders' culture. If anyone went in there saying that "You can't kill the dolphins! They are intelligent and sentient beings..." the Islanders would understand that now. If you went back in time about few centuries ago and said the same thing, they might blow you off.

I'm not saying that the Islanders at the time were bunch of barbarians. Back at the time, we didn't realize that the dolphins were intelligent as us (I think), or any other animals for that matter. So, back at the day, nations created cultures that were unethical because we really didn't know better. Now that we do, we want to be more ethical than our ancestors were.


Also, the poll should have another option. A simple "yes or no" may not be enough for this subject.
Well, I see you didn't get what I meant... but nevermind, take what I said more like a 'passing comment' than a real reply, it's just that I generally despise the "it's their tradition" line when applied to stuff that really does involve human suffering.

And what kind of ethics are involved with animals? They aren't intelligent enough to develop a set of values, there should be no ethics involved in this.
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Old 2007-03-12, 23:13   Link #26
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If we're going to drag ethics into this anyway, I think it's worthy of note that animals are smart enough to not brainstorm ways to blow each other up in mass quantities and destroy their own environment. Where does that leave us?
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Old 2007-03-13, 02:23   Link #27
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FatPianoBoy - They are laughing at us for be so damn retarded, i'm sure of that. I like to consider animals (oops looks like i never finished, lol ^_^, no worries)

Plains and simple, if you didn't see the movie, you would've gone through life without question. Cows are killed in a way that we would still seem unfit for them. If i am correct, they are killed with a compressed air gun that shoots a ultra compressed amount of air from on side of the head to the other, much like shooting a hollow point bullet into it. It would practically be the same comparison.

The movie was really graphic, even i almost couldn't stand it, but if you think about it, they are just another form of food in the market. It part of our "food chain", and it just so happens that we are on the top. Fishes are killed the same way, aren't I correct? And we hardly ever seem to complain. It's so natural for us to eat fish product most people don't mind that the are chopped the same way.

Is it that television has adopted that Dolphins are majestic animals, and we shouldn't kill such a creature for food? TV, books, other mediums of media. From my stand point of view, i'm not condoning it or rejecting it but if they are breaking international treaty, this movie should a good example for taking some serious actions for over fishing.

ps: the poll should edited to add a choice b/t those two. Thanks Aoie_Emesai.
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Old 2007-03-13, 02:47   Link #28
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Badly constructed poll. I regret voting either way and I'd write my qualifiers all over the margins if this were a paper poll.
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Old 2007-03-13, 04:38   Link #29
Jaden
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Wow those dolphins sure have a lot of blood.
I'm against that kind of fishing, they should find a way to kill them faster, stressed and especially tortured animals taste bad. The meat of those dolphins will be like, marinated in adrenaline :P
Killing animals for food isn't so bad, though. We'd do nastier things if we got too hungry.
Also fishing too much is ineffective, like stabbing our own feet. Professional fishing should be ecological.
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Old 2007-03-13, 05:03   Link #30
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Originally Posted by Aoie_Emesai View Post
FatPianoBoy - They are laughing at us for be so damn retarded, i'm sure of that. I like to consider animals

Plains and simple, if you didn't see the movie, you would've gone through life without question. Cows are killed in a way that we would still seem unfit for them. If i am correct, they are killed with a compressed air gun that shoots a ultra compressed amount of air from on side of the head to the other, much like shooting a hollow point bullet into it. It would practically be the same comparison.

The movie was really graphic, even i almost couldn't stand it, but if you think about it, they are just another form of food in the market. It part of our "food chain", and it just so happens that we are on the top. Fishes are killed the same way, aren't I correct? And we hardly ever seem to complain. It's so natural for us to eat fish product most people don't mind that the are chopped the same way.

Is it that television has adopted that Dolphins are majestic animals, and we shouldn't kill such a creature for food? TV, books, other mediums of media. From my stand point of view, i'm not condoning it or rejecting it but if they are breaking international treaty, this movie should a good example for taking some serious actions for over fishing.

ps: the poll should edited to add a choice b/t those two. Thanks Aoie_Emesai.
Cattle is killed by something more comparable to a explosive-cartridge fastening tool here (just using compressed air to drive the hammer). Its meant to make cattle effectively brain dead. (smaller animals or often electrocuted).

Regarding the topic... overfishing concerns me more. In the end its the same, if mankind either kills all dolphins itself, or let it starve to extinction by overfishing the oceans. Often dolphins have to die, when they are not even a target of the fishers (pretty wasted lifes then), they are just worthless by-catch, going dead back into the ocean. I mean most of the dolphins that end up in a trawl net, do not die directly by the hands of humans but due to suffocation, they are mamals after all, and need to get back to the surface of the ocean to breathe (once in while).
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Old 2007-03-13, 05:23   Link #31
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If we're going to drag ethics into this anyway, I think it's worthy of note that animals are smart enough to not brainstorm ways to blow each other up in mass quantities and destroy their own environment. Where does that leave us?
They're not smart, they are stupid enough to worry only about food and getting laid.

I see the personification of animals as a deep problem, because it denotes how difficult it is sometimes to put oneself in the other's position. You can't seriously try to transport our particular, subjective structure of knowledge to the brain of an animal. Animals don't have words to begin with, and so they possess such a minimal discrimination of reality that it can't be compared with ours at all. That they don't "brainstorm ways to blow each other up apart" doesn't make them smarter--if an animal had to do that to get food, and it was the only way it could have it, it would certainly do it.

And they actually can't destroy their own environment because, unlike humans, they don't possess the ability to modify it. Which is the main reason why humans spread out so wide throughout the world.
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Old 2007-03-13, 06:07   Link #32
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Originally Posted by Jinto Lin View Post
Cattle is killed by something more comparable to a explosive-cartridge fastening tool here (just using compressed air to drive the hammer). Its meant to make cattle effectively brain dead. (smaller animals or often electrocuted)..
I only knew the bare basic ^_^. But thanks for the additional info.
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Old 2007-03-13, 06:28   Link #33
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ooh yes that film, i saw it already when someone at school started to show soem sick like movies (like a guy cutting off a piglets head with a chainsaw and laughed as its body was still crawling over the floor in shock as blood splurted out)

personally i find it sickening and it reminds you of how cruel mankind can be, man kind still thinks theyre supreme and because of that jardly ever thinks of how they would look like in another person's eyes, but then again life isnt fair either, dolphins have always been protrayed as kind creatures but did everyone forget that even dolphins attack people once in a while, though it hardly has anything to do with the current situation, what disgusts me is the way theyre being slaughtered, although mankind thinks that to each other death has to be quick and less painfull they still think that killing another creature is different from the way they should behave against their own species, like in many other countries where simulair thinsg happen, there's not much we can change about it, people need to eat and for poorer area's they have to have some sort of income, hardly caring about the way they earn their money, there isnt much i can say aboutit..

as a person i find it cruel because of mankinds stupidity, but then again i cannot do anything about the way some people try and make their money
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Old 2007-03-13, 08:26   Link #34
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I was reminded why I, as a meat eater, would never go to a slaughterhouse to have a point proven to me.

In the end, Dolphins are animals and people will eat them. Personally, I won't have an appetite for the next few days because of this, but I know that I'll turn back to eating my meats soon enough.

Just please let me get the image of that dolphin being dragged on the road to leave my head.
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Old 2007-03-13, 09:28   Link #35
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That is damn bloody.
Seeing all that blood makes me shaken.

If only we had never evolved into omnivores...
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Old 2007-03-13, 09:58   Link #36
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I think you've all misunderstood the issue. I'll give you a hint: it has NOTHING to do with an animal's sentience or ability to feel emotion.

It is the fact that the strong will always dominate the weak, as long as there are no negative consequences for the aggressor. The only reason humans are frequently unwilling to kill other humans is that they fear social retribution (aka, jail time).

What about the so-called virtuous people that believe in absolute morals, like "murder is wrong"? What rubbish. They've created subconscious devices in their minds early in their childhood as a precaution, so they are always reminded not to cross that line. Their fear of punishment is so ingrained, so immutable, that it takes the form of the fiction of "ethics." When you watch the news and see "atrocities" of ethnic cleansing, why is it that you feel angry? It is because your own fear of killing makes you subconsciously jealous when someone else is doing what you won't.

Dolphins are worthless, just like people. But unlike people, they won't throw you in jail, attack you in your home with mobs, or create plans for vengeance when you kill them. So I don't see what is stopping anyone.
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Old 2007-03-13, 12:19   Link #37
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I think i need to throw in my 2 cents. back in the 1800-early 1900s Blue whales were hunted.........massacred for their oil. People didn't eat blue whale we just wanted their fat. so we cut away what we wanted and throw the rest overboard. Blue whales or any whale for that matter are on the same inteligent scale as dolphines and chimps, and pigs, and possibly 1/10 of the human population. So does that mean we [bold] should not[/bold] kill them for necessity. For crying out loud, vietnamese up till about 10-15 years ago were eating dogs and cats.

Its not that killing dolphines is just. It that killing for food is different than killing for game. If you live in any European countries, Canada, or the US i almost garanutee you that you would have know a few guys and some gals who spend a week in the forest hunting. They don't need to kill deers, or fowl, but they do.

So you see my point, killing for food for a population vs. killing for game is different. I have no quam about eating any animal an long as I never kept it as a pet.
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Old 2007-03-13, 13:00   Link #38
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I think i need to throw in my 2 cents. back in the 1800-early 1900s Blue whales were hunted.........massacred for their oil. People didn't eat blue whale we just wanted their fat. so we cut away what we wanted and throw the rest overboard. Blue whales or any whale for that matter are on the same inteligent scale as dolphines and chimps, and pigs, and possibly 1/10 of the human population. So does that mean we [bold] should not[/bold] kill them for necessity. For crying out loud, vietnamese up till about 10-15 years ago were eating dogs and cats.

Its not that killing dolphines is just. It that killing for food is different than killing for game. If you live in any European countries, Canada, or the US i almost garanutee you that you would have know a few guys and some gals who spend a week in the forest hunting. They don't need to kill deers, or fowl, but they do.

So you see my point, killing for food for a population vs. killing for game is different. I have no quam about eating any animal an long as I never kept it as a pet.

More sentimental nonsense. It doesn't matter what you kill for. Humans have nothing to fear from whales or dolphins, thus we shall kill whales and dolphins. See my above post.
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Old 2007-03-13, 14:58   Link #39
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
They're not smart, they are stupid enough to worry only about food and getting laid.

I see the personification of animals as a deep problem, because it denotes how difficult it is sometimes to put oneself in the other's position. You can't seriously try to transport our particular, subjective structure of knowledge to the brain of an animal. Animals don't have words to begin with, and so they possess such a minimal discrimination of reality that it can't be compared with ours at all. That they don't "brainstorm ways to blow each other up apart" doesn't make them smarter--if an animal had to do that to get food, and it was the only way it could have it, it would certainly do it.

And they actually can't destroy their own environment because, unlike humans, they don't possess the ability to modify it. Which is the main reason why humans spread out so wide throughout the world.
You missed the point.
The point I was trying to make was that, while humans are superior to animals, we shouldn't let that go to our heads, because we pull plenty of stupid crap ourselves.
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Old 2007-03-13, 15:33   Link #40
Jinto
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Originally Posted by Fome View Post
...
It is the fact that the strong will always dominate the weak, as long as there are no negative consequences for the aggressor. The only reason humans are frequently unwilling to kill other humans is that they fear social retribution (aka, jail time).

What about the so-called virtuous people that believe in absolute morals, like "murder is wrong"? What rubbish. They've created subconscious devices in their minds early in their childhood as a precaution, so they are always reminded not to cross that line. Their fear of punishment is so ingrained, so immutable, that it takes the form of the fiction of "ethics." When you watch the news and see "atrocities" of ethnic cleansing, why is it that you feel angry? It is because your own fear of killing makes you subconsciously jealous when someone else is doing what you won't.
...
You should not critisize people, who you do not understand. There exist higher morals/ethics. Not everbody lives on a moral niveau of 5 year old child (morals mainly driven by fear of sanctions and punishment or carrot and stick). Imagine a situation, where you had to decide to either kill a weak/innocent human, or die yourself. Lets say you are a soldier and don't want to participate in ethnic cleanings. Though if you don't participate you'll be executed for refusal to obey orders. I'ld say a person that applies to his/her higher ethics, would rather die, than obeying such an order. The situation of fear is oppositly in this situation. Many people see themselves in their victims, and thats the actual problem. Once you identify yourself with the victim, you have a ethical dilemma. Many people are not that simple minded, not just stupid flesh and bones, living like primitive animals and/or hate driven war mongers, that they can handle such a situation. They identify with their should be victim, and would kill a part of themselves (their personality), if they killed a "innocent" person.
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