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Old 2009-07-18, 07:18   Link #2181
LoweGear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Edit: This is starting to go off-topic, but I'm worried discussion of this OC will end up deleted if moved to the extremely-inaccessible character thread. =|
I kinda resent that comment, given that OC's has had a mix of tech and fanfiction discussions for a while now. Heck, it's actually the best place to go off-topic in the forum... and no one's stopping you from posting

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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Of course, you could get a drone to manage the same trick. But I don't know if that's possible with respect to Nanoha. Jail's drones were singularly underarmed, for the most part; they weren't really a threat to anyone except en masse and against troops who had no offensive or defensive capabilities that didn't rely on magic.
Uhm... Nanoha was smacked by a stealth drone because of her weakness at the time, but Vita couldn't even detect said stealth drone until it stabbed her through the heart. And of course, even cyborgs built with the latest in sensor technology couldn't detect Teana's stealth capabilities, only her illusions. There's also the fact that until Fate's intuition kicked in, she didn't even notice the Lieze twins cloaked beside the building they were standing on, and none of the devices gave an early warning to their presence. Stealth and stealth technology may have appropriate countermeasures in the Nanohaverse, but they're not quite as useless as they would appear to be - in fact, they're shown to be quite effective, if not for the rarity of the mages that can pull it off well.
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Old 2009-07-18, 07:47   Link #2182
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Actually, my take on anti-stealth in nanohaverse would be that it demands an active participation from the mage, or else it taxes the device so much it is considered useless in most moment (very few mages are capable of stealth).

Also, it is my impression that stealth require more power even than anti-stealth, meaning that once the enemy knows you are there, it's *very* hard to use.

The numbers, of course, weren't really mages, and teana trained with subaru too.
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Old 2009-07-18, 15:15   Link #2183
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Well, I was just worried that a post of a new character would be against the rules of the thread unless I also commented on someone else's creation, but there's so many pages of back-and-forth banter that I didn't really want to sift through it all to find something to comment on. =|
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Old 2009-07-18, 15:47   Link #2184
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Nah, best way to get started in OC is just post an idea and get involved. No need to dig through everything to find something to comment on.
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Old 2009-07-18, 16:08   Link #2185
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One has to wonder about those stealth drones.

They're obviously a lot more effective than normal ones. They managed to get through and put little Nanoha out of action, even if it was kind of a golden BB lucky hit that got her right when she had a different problem. And enough of them almost stopped Vita, which I don't know you could have done with any number of conventional drones. So why is Jail bothering with tons of the "junk" gadgets and not more of these beasts instead?

Deniability, maybe? If these nasty evil invisible drones are everywhere, snarfing up Relics, then Regius would have a much harder time stepping on anti-AMF development. By having a bunch of expendable and not-all-that-dangerous gadgets doing the grunt work, Jail doesn't look all that dangerous, Regius can keep anti-AMF development isolated, and he can still occasionally send out a few of the stealthers when it's REALLY important.
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Old 2009-07-18, 16:15   Link #2186
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Hmm, it's a bit of a plothole indeed.
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Old 2009-07-18, 16:25   Link #2187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Hmm, it's a bit of a plothole indeed.
A wizard did it!
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Old 2009-07-18, 16:37   Link #2188
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Maybe the stealth technology that the nasty ones are made up of isn't feasible to make in extremely large quantities?
Possible. They were part of the Cradles own defense program after all.

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BTW, how much of what happened to Nanoha when she got hurt do we see?

Just the two scenes in the anime, a few references and two manga flashbacks or is there more somewhere else?
Nope, that's pretty much it.
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Old 2009-07-18, 17:35   Link #2189
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To solve the stealth dilemma, my OC villain has acquired a degree of magic resistance. This should make things slightly easier on her and slightly more challenging for our dashing detective heroines. ^^;
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Old 2009-07-18, 17:50   Link #2190
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Darn, wanted to see more character reactions, I know Vita was broken up and Fate didn't seem to want to leave Nanoha's side (the image I saw made Fate look like she was about to break down crying just looking at Nanoha in her coma). I just kinda wished that we could've seen more tho.
Seconded. I mean, Vita was so worried she actually decided to take a teaching degree, and when Nanoha managed to screw herself up a second time with Blaster 3, she even decided to switch jobs, taking a job that took her away from Hayate's side just so she could stay closer to Nanoha. That's how worried Vita is.

Also makes for some juicy NanoVita. :3

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
To solve the stealth dilemma, my OC villain has acquired a degree of magic resistance. This should make things slightly easier on her and slightly more challenging for our dashing detective heroines. ^^;
You mean magic resistance of the Fate/Stay Night kind?
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Old 2009-07-18, 18:08   Link #2191
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Possible. They were part of the Cradles own defense program after all..
Except that in Episode 24 (heh, I've got a clear memory of this after having watched it a couple of days ago when A.T. busted me hard on Regius and Zest), when Zest's team made its ill-advised raid on Jail's base, Quint and Megane ended up doing the back-to-back thing, surrounded by Type IVs...a lot of Type IVs.

Hm...do we ever see Type IVs actually flying, though? A lack of mobility might be the Achilles' heel that makes them difficult to send them in and out rapidly, particularly if the stealth function is a big power-burner that can't be maintained for an extended period of time. And although they do manage to critically injure Vita in the Cradle, that's an entire army of them (dozens? hundreds? thousands??) against one mage (okay, a AAA+, yes, but even so) under AMF conditions. Their effectiveness might not be all that overwhelming in less-favorable situations...
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Old 2009-07-18, 18:10   Link #2192
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More along the lines of AD&D style magic resistance. A degree of resistance to all magic, beneficial or harmful alike. Healing spells fail on Nena just as often as attack magic does (if not more often), and she can't be teleported or use transfer ports that directly affect her (she's restricted to existing gates and portals).

Her resistance isn't even close to absolute, but she can easily withstand the beams from a grunt clerk's staff, passive search magic and weak barriers/defensive magics. Finding her isn't as simple as finding a "blank" spot in the magic background radiation as someone using an AMF to mask their presence; she doesn't push back magic, just resists its effects. Sufficient power or skill behind the spell will pierce her resistance.
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Old 2009-07-18, 18:20   Link #2193
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how does she resist? AMF doesn't push back either: it unlinks the magic. for a better phrasing, it takes the spell and makes it just normal magical energy, if i understand it right. so it dissipates. Raising heart did call it a "jammer field".

Your resistance... i have trouble thinking what it could be beyond a linker core that automaticly makes some kind of shields alike Signum's Aura from a past trauma...
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Old 2009-07-18, 18:23   Link #2194
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The how and why she resists will all be explained in the story. The short version is that she's resistant to magic, and through some processes and augmentations, she becomes more resistant to magic.

There's no need for a Treknobabble explanation because, well... it's magic! A wizard did it!
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Old 2009-07-18, 20:56   Link #2195
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unfortunately, "A Wizard Did it" does not cut it.
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Old 2009-07-18, 23:16   Link #2196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Basically, the guy with the gun shoots Erio, who deflects the bullets and flattens the guy, who then has something of an "oh shi- he's a mage!" reaction.
Having actually HEARD that episode, it is just like that ridiculous cannon thing between Subaru and that battledroid. The only conclusion that can be made by analyzing the time lag is that the bullet velocity is ridiculously slow (the distance can also be very long, but the point is that Erio had substantial time to react, and if it is that long the guy would probably have tried running for a bit more knowing the engagement ranges of mages).

I know you'll try and insist that timing the velocity reference is invalid (even though you can present no real counterevidence), but without that, I'll have to extrapolate what happened there by their response speeds in the anime, which will come to much the same conclusion. The only way you can say they blocked bullets and shells worthy of their Terran forms is if you insist that they must be exactly like Terra's, even though there's no reason to do so.

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It's a brutal (but entertaining) cycle.
Well said. And that's why I actually think Regius and the High Council really had the right thing going. The current TSAB situation is just not sustainable in the long term. The only other solution is some effective mechanical magiweapons, but for one thing their ground-level magiweapons aren't working well (if the tanks were any indication), and if mechanical magiweapons got a thing going, it is just going to become the new generation of tools "a child could use" (their argument against mass weapons).

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Related and slightly more on-topic; Mid-Childa may have outlawed kinetic weapons, but one does wonder what real defense they have against high-powered rifles, cannons and directed-energy weapons explicitly designed to kill, unlike magic attacks which appear more focused on less-than-lethal force.

We've seen Protection and Defenser block some powerful magic (and some falling/flying debris) but never really have we seen it block a railgun slug or a beam of highly-energetic particles. Every weapon is magic-based or the low-tech side of an Armed Device.

I'm sure it's been done in fanfiction before, but it would still be interesting to see how well the mages we all know and love would fare against an enemy unlike any they've encountered so far in canon--an advanced, non-magical enemy that uses weapons designed to kill.
An argument where magic is superior to mass weapons they've experienced is historically defensible, but well, we've seen their mass weapons thanks to SSX, and they clearly lack the biggest value of Terran mass weapons over Middie magic (velocity), so in a sense they hadn't really fought against mass weapons as we know them.

If we use current or near-future Earth levels as a benchmark ... for example, a scenario where they try and "Manage" Earth ... combined with their tactical incompetence, the TSAB will have to start considering overturning the table and threatening with the Arc very soon. Once the wonder of magic fades away, things would get very nasty for the Middies.

Barrier Jackets seem to be reasonably good against high energy or highly energetic particles such as fire or magic, but against kinetics ... well, the leader of the pack is a barrier jacket getting cut by windblast but watching over the 3 series it is not hard to conclude that they just aren't very effective. Of course, this is a physically predictable result.

Thus, a mage would probably have a much better time against a bunch of "advanced" enemies armed with lasers or particle beams, and much harder time against "primitive slugthrowers" in the supersonic range.

If you expand the consideration to using specific defenses ... they can be effective against a certain amount of blast-fragmentation (we've seen that in the manga when they resisted a explosion) by extension it is reasonable to say that they can resist bullets if properly prepared. But the limits are actually circumscribed - defending took 3 mages that were figured to be about rank A overall, and in fact the enemies predicted it'll take 4 (so figures that the 3 mages were a bit better than they figured), and they have to be alerted to the incident and they won't be doing much attacking while resisting.

Invading Earth can probably be done (depending on how many mages and of what types they actually have), IF the Middies handle things properly they might make it or at least make an honorable fight, but the ways they are... magic just doesn't buy them enough in the bulk of their mage army (sub-A) that they can ignore tactics. The end result would likely be a slaughter. A few elite mages will cause disproportionate losses (probably the guys that can evade fast with moves like Sonic Move more than the good shooters), but seem unlikely to survive in the end.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2009-07-18 at 23:45. Reason: Extending with more replies.
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Old 2009-07-19, 08:02   Link #2197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint X View Post
unfortunately, "A Wizard Did it" does not cut it.
I was being facetious. Magic is inherently inexplicable--it doesn't adhere to the laws of reality. How can I explain something that doesn't adhere to the laws of reality plausibly?

Does MGLN itself ever try to explain the scientific principles behind this mysterious energy called "magic?" Of course not, because magic isn't science and science isn't magic. Contrary to popular belief, MGLN doesn't create magic with science, but allows magic and science to coexist.
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Old 2009-07-19, 08:34   Link #2198
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I was being facetious. Magic is inherently inexplicable--it doesn't adhere to the laws of reality. How can I explain something that doesn't adhere to the laws of reality plausibly?

Does MGLN itself ever try to explain the scientific principles behind this mysterious energy called "magic?" Of course not, because magic isn't science and science isn't magic. Contrary to popular belief, MGLN doesn't create magic with science, but allows magic and science to coexist.
While I do believe in this as well (otherwise there'd be no point in calling it "magic" wouldn't there? And it is a MAJOR point of the Nanohaverse that most of us here in tech tend to forget), if it can be explained using even pseudoscientific means, then by all means we try and explain how exactly magic does it. Even in the Nanohaverse, they have been trying to explain the effects of certain magical attacks in physical terms (like Variable Barret).

I do find the ""A Wizard Did it" does not cut it." line rather presumptous by itself though... since there are still lots of things in the Nanohaverse that we don't understand and might not be able to understand with science and logic, due to the nature of magic in general (and of course the writer's various limitations, financial and intellectual, when they created the series). Besides, many people in OC do the "explain over the course of the story" schtick, and I believe you shouldn't be denied such a right to do the same for your character.
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Old 2009-07-19, 10:14   Link #2199
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There is some base in science in Nanoverse magic.

All Nanoha magic in cannon has followed the following:

Quote:

Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics
If two thermodynamic systems are each in thermal equilibrium with a third, then they are in thermal equilibrium with each other.

EXAMPLE: All magic attacks interact and transfer energies between each other. Most visibly seen in the interaction between attack spells, and defensive barriers.


First Law of Thermodynamics
Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It can only change forms.

Example: Using Magic tires a mage out. They must eat food and use pre-charged cartridges to restore and/or boost their magic.

Second Law of Thermodynamics
The entropy of an isolated system not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium.

Example: After use, magic energy disperses into the environment. In order to re-gather that energy for Starlight Breaker, Nanoha must expend energy to prepare it. Which in itself disperses as heat. Requiring her to do other entropy increasing actions, such as eating food that has taken various resources to create.

Third Law of Thermodynamics
As temperature approaches absolute zero, the entropy of a system approaches a constant minimum.

Example: The lower the energy in any given magic, the less it affects the things around it.
Since Nanoha mages do not litterally pull something from nothing... reverse entropy, or otherwise hack reality outright, they obey the laws of Thermodynamics, which means scientific evaluation works on them.
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Old 2009-07-19, 10:33   Link #2200
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And yet by the same measure they ignore them outright. Such as magic having the ability to pound holes through bulkheads while leaving the person fired at unharmed as far as physical damage goes.

Saying "physics work like this, so magic works like this" is not a phrase that counts for everything.
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