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Old 2013-02-18, 20:39   Link #2981
Lhklan
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> No rivalry in the TSAB

Hello? Regius rings any bells?
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Old 2013-02-18, 20:42   Link #2982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
And yes, I know how stupid the rivalry between units is in the army. Also I know the TSAB is nothing like that. You see at no point do we see any kind of problem between the ground forces and the air forces. In fact we see them fight side by side and never get in to a discussion over “I am the one in charge here”.
You'd be incorrect again. Regius's whole reason for the combat cyborg and artificial mage programs, was that the Naval branch (the main branch), was taking all the good mages. There was jealousy there.

Chrono, as part of the naval branch, couldn't get involved in helping Hayate because the ground forces didn't want him there. Instead, Verossa had to do it.

After the peace conference attack, the ground forces blatantly said they didn't want any help, rejecting strongly any outside interference, and would handle it themselves.

RF6 was created with the intent to get around the bureaucracy between the branches, and act independently. And the only way they could get involved, was via their original mission, the relics. As Hayate said, "that is how we're doing it. Jail and his group just happened to be connected with that."

And need I mention Regius's hatred of RF6, and desire to have it shut down?

Inter-TSAB squabbling was very much a part of the StrikerS plot.
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Old 2013-02-18, 20:43   Link #2983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhklan View Post
> No rivalry in the TSAB

Hello? Regius rings any bells?
More specifically, Regius was upset that the Navy and Air Force kept getting all the AAA and S rank and above mages and knights and the Ground Forces got the scraps left over...

Plus the Ground Forces had to be responsible for the safety of Mid-Childa itself but the Air Force and Navy ignored problems that didn't directly pertain to them. Check out Zest's flashbacks for more information on that.
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Old 2013-02-18, 20:54   Link #2984
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Well I kind of not get that, I will admit as much. Then again I was under the impression this was because Regius need to be a jerk. I mean he wanted more power to fight the crimes we never see happening and he just wanted to take what he could to protected his homeland. I kind of not really care about it because in the long run it was just confusing. But you have me there that did happen.

However this is just strange because at some point I even think Regius wasn’t part of the TSAB at all. You see this was set as if all the branches were independent to the other when, to be fair, I always consider more to be in the same boat. I mean not like the US army, navy and etc but more as just sides of the same thing as different military units of each branch. In the large scale I never get why they were fighting at all, why they want more power and why Regius was so frustrated. In the end this was easily fixed later when all branches unite forces and cooperate so why nobody just say they should do that? But again we are moving away from the subject. We can take this to the other thread.

Like I said before limiters were kind of dull and I am sure I read that about the time-space fabric being damage, I think was maybe the Nanoha wiki. And even as “political” control makes no sense. The fact remains you are limiting your agents for no other reason than: “Because they make us look bad” and that is just directly stupid, when you could just use laws to keep them away from your areas and make the SD6 so stuck with bureaucracy that they could never do anything.
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Old 2013-02-18, 21:17   Link #2985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Like I said before limiters were kind of dull and I am sure I read that about the time-space fabric being damage, I think was maybe the Nanoha wiki. And even as “political” control makes no sense. The fact remains you are limiting your agents for no other reason than: “Because they make us look bad” and that is just directly stupid, when you could just use laws to keep them away from your areas and make the SD6 so stuck with bureaucracy that they could never do anything.
I'll agree about the limiters being a bit dull, but they logically work with the very real problem. Tsuzuki could have written the TSAB as a big happy family, but it wouldn't be as realistic. I'm glad he went that route, even if it means putting up with limiters.

But look at us here, fighting over details in a series. As bad as you think it may get here, expand that to military units with highly destructive powers. Do you really want to do nothing to stem feelings of jealously, resentment, and anger? How well do you think laws will do, when a unit gets so fed up because they feel another unit is getting special treatment, that they attack? Do you want to rely on just laws, or something a bit more physical to keep peace within the ranks? Because in any organization, you are going to have some dissension within the ranks. You have to handle it somehow.
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Old 2013-02-18, 21:47   Link #2986
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First time we agree on something and I want to tell you I get your point Kaijo. As you say those are elements need to be taken in to consideration and the idea of using limiters as a way to keep that from happening could work. I want you to know I do get that, and I get what you mean by realism. Really. But now try to see where I am coming from here.

I know this is old with me but again problems being execution and poorly explain background. In reality the limiters fix nothing because mage can take them out and still shine in the battle field if there is an emergency. Nanoha was able to remove her own limiter once so really those devices proof ineffective, the unit still has better potential with better mage to respond if the situation needs them to. Also organizations are creating to handle those things base on laws. In the en a military structure is that, a military structure: chain of command, orders etc. The system is think to take care of this and the treat to physical elements is put to the side.

Like I say a simple law that prevents strong mage to be united could help better than fake limiters. But the problems between branches don’t really come from just that and here is where I feel the thing breaks for me. You see in the end I don’t think this cliché fight between armies helps the story or the world in any way. Is so cliché you can fill the holes on the idea by yourself. Just look at how we really don’t know what the ground forces do in a general base, what the navy handles and how the air forces enter in this thing. Now we can assume and you sure will have answers but think really on what we see in the series. More than an army the TSAB seems like a police force and yet at times they do act like an army and consider police is not part of the TSAB at times. So here we have a confusing setting of areas where we can’t tell where is any branch suppose to do its work. Then explain to me how I am suppose to get there is a rivalry between them when I don’t know what they do and why they feel they need more power and money.

Just by looking at ViVid where Einhart hitting fighters was almost consider an incident makes you realize Mid-Childa level of crimes must be really low. Also Einhart lost conscious on the street in the middle of the night and she was found unharmed by Nove and the others. And yet we hear Regius screaming that he wants more money to fight crime. And while that is years after also realize how Teana talks about Mid-Childa to Runessa : the incidents she mention are related to the Mirage and the JS incidents so really that hints a peaceful world that will not need such an army as Regius wanted. Also we never see or hear about other dimensional forces so why the Navy needs so many mages? And isn’t the aerial forces kind of part of the navy? Because if they control several worlds then they should all be part of the navy like in the Alliance in Mass Effect.

Now you might have answers for such questions and sure explanations to justify the setting but try to look at this of what it is. Some of your answers could be also assumptions as my own, so really what says my explanations or yours are any better to the others? And with that in mind then answer of what you think it happen and why you think that way, so we keep this as exchange of points of view which in the end is what we are doing.
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Old 2013-02-18, 22:14   Link #2987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
I know this is old with me but again problems being execution and poorly explain background. In reality the limiters fix nothing because mage can take them out and still shine in the battle field if there is an emergency. Nanoha was able to remove her own limiter once so really those devices proof ineffective, the unit still has better potential with better mage to respond if the situation needs them to. Also organizations are creating to handle those things base on laws. In the en a military structure is that, a military structure: chain of command, orders etc. The system is think to take care of this and the treat to physical elements is put to the side.
Hayate removed Nanoha's limiter. A limiter is not something a mage can remove themselves. Hayate can remove the limiters for the units under her command, but her own limiter can only be removed by a chosen few. In this case, Chrono and Carim (they can also remove the limiters of people in RF6, too). In such a way, they add just enough of a roadblock, but not enough of one to prevent handling things in an emergency.

It's not a perfect system, but it's not bad, either.

Quote:
Like I say a simple law that prevents strong mage to be united could help better than fake limiters.
What law would you propose that would suddenly make everyone happy? Because, at least in the real world, we have laws against murder, and yet people are still killed.

Quote:
But the problems between branches don’t really come from just that and here is where I feel the thing breaks for me. You see in the end I don’t think this cliché fight between armies helps the story or the world in any way. Is so cliché you can fill the holes on the idea by yourself. Just look at how we really don’t know what the ground forces do in a general base, what the navy handles and how the air forces enter in this thing.
You might call it cliche, but it is also realistic. Perhaps you'd prefer if things were less real? I can understand that, even though I like the degree of realism Tsuzuki has interjected.

Quote:
Now we can assume and you sure will have answers but think really on what we see in the series. More than an army the TSAB seems like a police force and yet at times they do act like an army and consider police is not part of the TSAB at times. So here we have a confusing setting of areas where we can’t tell where is any branch suppose to do its work. Then explain to me how I am suppose to get there is a rivalry between them when I don’t know what they do and why they feel they need more power and money.
They are an interesting cross between a military and a police force. But even police forces have ranks and various different functions. My own gut feeling, is if I look at this from a wide angle, I don't think multiple planets would consent to funding a large military with their taxes. At best, they might support a police force that helps keep dangerous lost logia sealed and contained. In this light, you might look at the TSAB as being more like a UN force. Used in specific roles, but not exactly like a conquering military.

Quote:
Just by looking at ViVid where Einhart hitting fighters was almost consider an incident makes you realize Mid-Childa level of crimes must be really low. Also Einhart lost conscious on the street in the middle of the night and she was found unharmed by Nove and the others. And yet we hear Regius screaming that he wants more money to fight crime. And while that is years after also realize how Teana talks about Mid-Childa to Runessa : the incidents she mention are related to the Mirage and the JS incidents so really that hints a peaceful world that will not need such an army as Regius wanted. Also we never see or hear about other dimensional forces so why the Navy needs so many mages? And isn’t the aerial forces kind of part of the navy? Because if they control several worlds then they should all be part of the navy like in the Alliance in Mass Effect.
Zest said it himself, "The scale of things they handle in the naval forces is different." Given things like the jewel seeds and the book of darkness, I can only imagine what other kinds of lost logia are causing issues out there. Just because we don't see every single situation they handle, doesn't mean they don't exist. The Hucks have had quite a few run-ins with the Bureau long before Hayate got involved.

And any society has certain levels of crime. While it would be interesting to see normal crime get handled, this is just something you'll have to learn to accept that you won't really see. Although you get glimpses. When we first run into Erio and Caro in SSX, they are busy stopping some poachers (which is part of their reason for joining the nature preserve). That's fairly mundane. And one of the Force NEXT releases mentions that AMF weapons are being spread amongst criminal enterprises.

Quote:
Now you might have answers for such questions and sure explanations to justify the setting but try to look at this of what it is. Some of your answers could be also assumptions as my own, so really what says my explanations or yours are any better to the others? And with that in mind then answer of what you think it happen and why you think that way, so we keep this as exchange of points of view which in the end is what we are doing.
I'll fully admit some of my explanations are my interpretations, and it would be nice to get hard and fast answers for everything. But we'll have to accept we won't get answers for everything, and that's not inherently bad, especially with a HUGE universe like Nanoha. Say what you will about Tsuzuki, but he's added an incredible amount of detail to this world, far more than most other series.

But you also have to learn to accept that a lot of what we are telling you, are things that have been set down as fact, such as the limiters. I've watched the series many many times, gone over the sound stages and manga a lot, and taken a look at external materials. Hell, I started the stickied thread in this forum for the Nanoha FAQ to help people find correct information. I'm very familiar with what explanations we have, and how things work. I also know the spaces within those explanations, that allow for some difference of thought. You'd be well advised to go over that material fully, so you know where the spaces are to interject your thoughts.
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:00   Link #2988
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But is really a bad system that is always hindering the ability of some mage to respond to some emergencies and Nanoha did take the limiter of by herself when she stop Subaru and Teana team attack that ended in Teana being blast away. And really is impossible to make everyone happy Kaijo but a law and a set of rules to regulate how and where mage ended up is really better than nothing and bad limiters.

Realistic? Sort of. You see I am tired of the single minded violent military guys who doesn’t know anything better but to be rude, not liking change and really just thinking the only answer to their problems is more firepower. Like Regius. So is more of a boring and repetitive gimmick with this kind of setting that reminds me of a mecha anime someone remove the mechas from.

And no, the TSAB looks like the ONU, the army, the police and the government all in one. They make the laws, they hold the trials, they arrest people… really they never tell you where their power ends and where the planets enter, also they seem to be rule by their own military structure since we never see like representatives from all planets taking decisions and we see only Regius running the show on Mid-Childa by himself. We don’t even know if they are a democracy at all in any world or if they have different countries of a global government. As much as you say this world is so open and huge the holes in it are just too big to ignore.

Like Zest say: “The scale of things they handle is different” so how? I mean, at least they could tell us what is so important and what kind of criminal groups they hunt down. Like, for example, saying there is this kind of things going on and they need to fleet, ect. You see that is a generic explanation which, again, you fill the hole. And not, before you ask I don’t want to be told anything BUT we need at least more than what we get. Yes we get glimpses but the world feels empty and for such a large multiword thing the TSAB and the entire setting is kind of not fill, you get what I mean?

And you bring this point: you look over those things and form your own explanations about it. But here is the thing. Some are facts, yes, but open to debate like the limiters themselves which I think proof already to be full of flaws as political control and have not even mention again in follow up works. And here we kind of need those explanations when part of StrikerS plots are the political stuff and thing with the TSAB. Understanding what those are and why we should care only helps to get me invested. Let me take for example your own fic, Future Tense.

You did focus everything as military oppressive government that controls everything with an iron fist and have troops here and there. Hayate being on top and the other pretty much as a normal army. In a few scenes you told us all we need to know about the TSAB: they are a heavily militarized organization that rules through power and guns. But in StrikerS I know nothing about anything the TSAB does that is so important to keep the branches fighting over money that I don’t know where it comes from because I don’t even know what kind of money they use or the type of economical system. You see how I am pull away by both settings? You keep it nice and simple instead of making it look overcomplicated because you just don’t want to worry about telling details.
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:06   Link #2989
Lhklan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
But is really a bad system that is always hindering the ability of some mage to respond to some emergencies and Nanoha did take the limiter of by herself when she stop Subaru and Teana team attack that ended in Teana being blast away. And really is impossible to make everyone happy Kaijo but a law and a set of rules to regulate how and where mage ended up is really better than nothing and bad limiters.
Okay, now you're contradicting yourselves. One of your earlier posts said that: "the incidents she mention are related to the Mirage and the JS incidents so really that hints a peaceful world that will not need such an army as Regius wanted". So if it's peaceful world, there really isn't a need for large firepower now is there? And since it's a rare case, there's no need to make a useless law on it.

Quote:
Realistic? Sort of. You see I am tired of the single minded violent military guys who doesn’t know anything better but to be rude, not liking change and really just thinking the only answer to their problems is more firepower. Like Regius. So is more of a boring and repetitive gimmick with this kind of setting that reminds me of a mecha anime someone remove the mechas from.
No, what Regius wanted was talent. Which is normal, since everyone would want somebody with talent on their side. You're just generalizing things using your own opinion - AGAIN.
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:09   Link #2990
Sansker
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First I was saying that if you need a political control, I already say I disagree with such political control. Second Regius wanted more power to defend Mid-Childa, money, talent, cyborgs, didn’t seem to matter at all.
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:51   Link #2991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
But is really a bad system that is always hindering the ability of some mage to respond to some emergencies and Nanoha did take the limiter of by herself when she stop Subaru and Teana team attack that ended in Teana being blast away.
Ah, you're referring to that ep. What Nanoha said was to RH"Mode Release" which was the command to shift RH back to a jewel. That had nothing to do with limiters.

I'm gonna stop talking about limiters with you, though, since while you're free to dislike it, you haven't come up with anything better.

Quote:
Realistic? Sort of. You see I am tired of the single minded violent military guys who doesn’t know anything better but to be rude, not liking change and really just thinking the only answer to their problems is more firepower. Like Regius. So is more of a boring and repetitive gimmick with this kind of setting that reminds me of a mecha anime someone remove the mechas from.
In a word: testosterone. Since militaries have traditionally been male dominated, that means that dominant males rise up to the top. Big organizations are resistant to change. Combine those two, and Regius's attitude makes perfect sense.

Quote:
And no, the TSAB looks like the ONU, the army, the police and the government all in one. They make the laws, they hold the trials, they arrest people… really they never tell you where their power ends and where the planets enter, also they seem to be rule by their own military structure since we never see like representatives from all planets taking decisions and we see only Regius running the show on Mid-Childa by himself. We don’t even know if they are a democracy at all in any world or if they have different countries of a global government. As much as you say this world is so open and huge the holes in it are just too big to ignore.
The UN has an international court, too, where they can arrest and bring people to trial. You wanna say the world has holes too big to ignore, feel free. There are gaps out there, but not critical ones. Expecting someone to fill in every single detail to your satisfaction is unrealistic, though. And sometimes they leave some things unsaid to let the fans make up their minds.

Quote:
Like Zest say: “The scale of things they handle is different” so how? I mean, at least they could tell us what is so important and what kind of criminal groups they hunt down. Like, for example, saying there is this kind of things going on and they need to fleet, ect. You see that is a generic explanation which, again, you fill the hole. And not, before you ask I don’t want to be told anything BUT we need at least more than what we get. Yes we get glimpses but the world feels empty and for such a large multiword thing the TSAB and the entire setting is kind of not fill, you get what I mean?
No, I don't. I really don't see your problem. The scale of things is different, meaning they confront much bigger problems. Cyborgs running around on a planet? Not their thing. Ancient weapon ship is unearthed? They are right on it. Again, you want explanations, when more than enough has been handing to you.

Really, it's like you are looking for things to complain about. Which, given 90% of the posts, I suppose is par for the course with you.

Quote:
You did focus everything as military oppressive government that controls everything with an iron fist and have troops here and there. Hayate being on top and the other pretty much as a normal army. In a few scenes you told us all we need to know about the TSAB: they are a heavily militarized organization that rules through power and guns. But in StrikerS I know nothing about anything the TSAB does that is so important to keep the branches fighting over money that I don’t know where it comes from because I don’t even know what kind of money they use or the type of economical system. You see how I am pull away by both settings? You keep it nice and simple instead of making it look overcomplicated because you just don’t want to worry about telling details.
So, do you want details or don't you? You seem have been complaining all along that we need details, but then you praise me for not spilling out details and thus keeping it simple. Which is it?
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:53   Link #2992
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Does this forum having a blocking feature?

If it does, Kaijo should probably block Sankser's posts from his sight. If he feels they're nothing but complaints, it would save him some stress and let him concentrate on other posts.
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Old 2013-02-18, 23:57   Link #2993
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Just give what we need to understand the story. And by the way that male tradition is in our world we are talking about another world which seems superior in technology, I could also expected to be superior in such ridiculous complains about who has the biggest guns that fictional militaries always get in to. Also the UN doesn't make laws because they want to and have representatives from contires the TSAB only have milatiry members ruling over everything.

I am not looking for things to complain. I mention things I don't think they add, or are good and you say they are so I should just agree with you.
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Old 2013-02-19, 00:04   Link #2994
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Does this forum having a blocking feature?

If it does, Kaijo should probably block Sankser's posts from his sight. If he feels they're nothing but complaints, it would save him some stress and let him concentrate on other posts.
It does, but I've never felt a need to use it before. It's one of my little personal points of pride, that I've never felt a need to block anyone, in any forum or IM serivce. And Sansker isn't causing me any stress, heh. A few people look to be close to it, but I've always been able to take anything thrown at me and remain calm. I do enjoy debating, though, so if anything, I find amusement from this. Trust me, when I get tired of it, or feel it was wound down enough, I'll simply end it.

Though if you feel I didn't focus on a particular post or point, feel free to point it out and I will. Sometimes I skip over things for various reasons, but I'll always go back if someone wants me to.

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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Just give what we need to understand the story. And by the way that male tradition is in our world we are talking about another world which seems superior in technology, I could also expected to be superior in such ridiculous complains about who has the biggest guns that fictional militaries always get in to. Also the UN doesn't make laws because they want to and have representatives from contires the TSAB only have milatiry members ruling over everything.

I am not looking for things to complain. I mention things I don't think they add, or are good and you say they are so I should just agree with you.
Fictional yes, but it does form the basis for how Tsuzuki wrote his. Many other militaries in other series have similar personalities and organizational structures. The TSAB is certainly not unique in this.

And if there is something about the series that you want to see, then just include it in a fic of yours. Or do what I do. If something isn't there that I would like to see, I simply say, "This is my own personal canon, but..." or "This is just how I think about things, because it makes sense to me, even though it's not stated anywhere." But I don't think the organizational and world details we do have, are horrible in any way. It could have been worse, and things as stated are logical and par for the course enough.
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Old 2013-02-19, 00:12   Link #2995
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I think we are finally reaching the place I wanted with you Kaijo. You see, I think this is poorly explain ad I say but, and I admit I am not really clear about it, doesn’t mean is bad on itself. The ideas there as nice I just feel they could put a little more of work, a few lines and really create something better and they just didn’t because of lazy writing and when I notice that I am king of not in the mood to just forgive it. And really going for it just because is what others do when you try to create your own world is kind of laziness at its finest. There my complain. The tiny details and the nitpick comes after that.

And really I focus my points on that the series fail to connect with me, and so I am willing to take it apart. And really if we go for the “not stayed anywhere” a lot of things will be in the air. Like I say my own interpretation of the facts are in any way inferior to yours Kaijo. Even when you seem treat them as such.
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Old 2013-02-19, 00:18   Link #2996
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Does this forum having a blocking feature?

If it does, Kaijo should probably block Sankser's posts from his sight. If he feels they're nothing but complaints, it would save him some stress and let him concentrate on other posts.
There is an "Ignore" list.
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Old 2013-02-19, 11:33   Link #2997
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Though if you feel I didn't focus on a particular post or point, feel free to point it out and I will.
Ah, I was afraid it might come across that way, but it was not my intent.

I just figured that time spent doing something you didn't enjoy naturally was time spent not doing something you did enjoy.
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Old 2013-02-19, 15:35   Link #2998
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From the Innocence Thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Actually, fire is most consistently presented as the strongest offensive element out of the four in most fiction. It's just rarely displayed as anything but offensive.

Flame is generally pure offense, at rare times purification is used with it.

Lightning is often paired with wind, and tends to be about speed.

Ice and water are an obvious pair, and often have defensive and supportive spells as well.

Earth tends to be defensive focused, and has notorious habit of being terrible at aerial fighting.

Also, flame and heat go hand in hand. For obvious reasons.
I agree with most of them, don't forget also Earth is usually associated with crippling effect that slow or hinder the opponent's actions somewhat. And there's also "sand" which is sometimes treated as something separated or relatid to "wind" at times.

More picky works tend to separate "fire" and "heat" into two individual "elements" or the latter as an evolution of the former. Fire can be fired or spreaded but control is limited and have some key vulnerabilites. A Heat master can produce waves that affect determinated areas or well focused can even emulate beam or laser attacks and being able to control heat they can also produce and manipulate fire as well (take NEEDLESS as an example Saten can manipulate Heat in a miryad of creative ways and Aruka can use thermal manipulation to accelerate particles at subatomic level producing fire and heat extreme enough to DISINTEGRATE stuff coming in contact with it xD) In the works were Heat users exist Fire users are usually considered low class.
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Old 2013-02-19, 20:59   Link #2999
Lhklan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post

I agree with most of them, don't forget also Earth is usually associated with crippling effect that slow or hinder the opponent's actions somewhat. And there's also "sand" which is sometimes treated as something separated or relatid to "wind" at times.
"Sand" is not an element that appears often. I remembered that it only appear in Pokemon - as a small subset of Ground type - and in Naruto. The crippling - slow - effect tends to be associated with Ice or Water more.

Me, I've always think of them as this:

- Fire: Pure offensive, high damage but low accuracy.

- Water: Effect based, either healing effects or crippling effects.

- Wind/Lightning: High accuracy and crit but somewhat low damage.

- Earth: AoE attacks.

Note that I'm using the 4 elements system as example.
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Old 2013-02-20, 11:27   Link #3000
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It does rather depend on what work you're looking at, though. Some works like ZnT have lightning as the high end of wind, but others like Avatar have it as fire's high end. For still others like Dresden Files, the high end of fire is being able to control it so finely you can have a laser-like beam that's far more efficient than the stereotypical flaming columns.
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