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Old 2013-04-17, 20:07   Link #3221
XenahortCharybdis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannonball View Post
You can get into a tank with just a good sized rock if you have all the time in the world. That doesn't make it a practical option. Just because a gun might eventually break through a barrier jacket / mage's shielding doesn't mean they will in any practical time frame.
Okay, before we start packing too much HE into this query, it should be stated quite clearly that the idea of 'just how much damage a BJ/mage' can take is kind of relative.

Granted that we never actually see or are given any sort of proper scale -by this I mean giving us black and white figures on which to judge the efficacy of magic versus kinetic arms- we cannot rightly say things like "ooh, magic pwns guns", or "ooh, guns pwn magic" out of hand.

We are only able to infer this based on the world-building of the Nanoha series, and also the in-universe evidence of just how much damage spells actually do. So, what is the Nanoverse's take on this kind of weapon? More specifically, what is Administered Space with regards to the issue of kinetic weaponry?

Please keep in mind that we're still assuming -which I think you might have missed- that the 'verse that the history of Mid and Belka exist in is of a far higher technological level than Earth. Which means when we say 'kinetic weaponry' or 'guns', don't go thinking about 5.56mm ammo, .308 Winchester or that kind of thing. We're talking Halo-class arms at the very least. The Mariages are small fry in this verse - it's even suggested in SSX that they're only any good at all in the numbers. Redshirt flag right there.

I don't like the idea of comparing the effects of individual spells here, but well from what we've seen the collateral damage never goes beyond what some good ol' thermobarics can do. Maybe it's the Earth-thinking that limits the sense of scale in the production crew, but whatever. Consider the point dropped.

The best suggestion -if not outright evidence- that the Bureau deems kinetic weaponry dangerous is that they're banned outright (yes there are ways to get around it, but still it's the intention of policy that counts here). If it can't hurt you at all, why should you be afraid of it? It's only if the authorities understand that kinetic weaponry can undermine magic-centric civilization in some way that they would ban it within their own sphere of influence, which is...guess what, made of a collection of magic-centric societies!

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Originally Posted by Cannonball View Post
And that's if they don't just dodge them all (mages fly at hundreds of miles per hour with excellent mobility). It's not a question of guns and whatnot being 100% useless. Just useless to the point of a mage wasting you before you even notice much an effect.
Well, as krisslanza already mentioned, weapon tech scaling. Not going to address that again.

And as skane mentioned, not everyone is Nanoha - that thing with her shooting the Gadget Drone's homing rockets down mid-flight was like pitting a ballistic missile against a fleet group's worth of Aegis Missile Defense Systems. Aka a totally lost cause.

That, while the poor Ground Force grunts were taking cover from small-time peashooters the Gadget Type 1s were suppressing them with. I think the power spectrum is made quite clear in that comparison. Those poor saps probably couldn't take it if a truck bomb exploded in their faces.

Last edited by XenahortCharybdis; 2013-04-17 at 21:38.
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Old 2013-04-17, 20:26   Link #3222
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Vice is probably much more like a normal, everyday combat mage. His sniping is definitely more effective in some ways than mundane mass-based Earth sniping, but not insurmountably so.

His uniform might be a barrier jacket that provides more protection than mundane Earth uniforms could provide, but I doubt it's up to the kind of punishment that Earth weaponry could inflict, let alone the Mariage's arsenal.

For all that they've been treated like mooks, the A-rank aerial mages who can begin to fight like Nanoha are actually the elites. They're the kind of warriors who can roll right over the Mariage in individual combat.

Mages like Nanoha are closer to demigods than elites, as mages like Nanoha can take out SCORES of Mariage at once.

Subaru is one of those sub-demigod elites, who happens to be a combat cyborg. So she's in between the two classes. Quasigod?
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Old 2013-04-17, 20:41   Link #3223
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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Subaru is also an exceptional case, even more so since she is a combat cyborg. She may have blocked that AT-shot from a Mirage, but what about cannon-fodder Rank-B Joe-mage average? Not all mages are of a heroic level, just like not everybody gets to be a certified "Badass of the Week".
Quote:
Originally Posted by XenahortCharybdis View Post
Okay, before we start packing too much HE into this query, it should be stated quite clearly that the idea of 'just how much damage a BJ/mage' can take is kind of relative.

Granted that we never actually see or are given any sort of proper scale -by this I mean giving us black and white figures on which to judge the efficacy of magic versus kinetic arms- we cannot rightly say things like "ooh, magic pwns guns", or "ooh, guns pwn magic" out of hand.
Yeah, I do think many forget that Subaru isn't a good representation of the average mage's durability. Tsuzuki's failure to give hard numbers isn't helping us either way. I mean, look at how anti-tank warfare has evolved; the stuff that would destroy WW1 or WW2 tanks, modern tanks would laugh at, roll right through and punish the poor idiot for his foolishness. "Anti-tank" is a very vague term by itself if we don't have more evidence.
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Old 2013-04-17, 22:57   Link #3224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Vice is probably much more like a normal, everyday combat mage. His sniping is definitely more effective in some ways than mundane mass-based Earth sniping, but not insurmountably so.

His uniform might be a barrier jacket that provides more protection than mundane Earth uniforms could provide, but I doubt it's up to the kind of punishment that Earth weaponry could inflict, let alone the Mariage's arsenal.

For all that they've been treated like mooks, the A-rank aerial mages who can begin to fight like Nanoha are actually the elites. They're the kind of warriors who can roll right over the Mariage in individual combat.

Mages like Nanoha are closer to demigods than elites, as mages like Nanoha can take out SCORES of Mariage at once.

Subaru is one of those sub-demigod elites, who happens to be a combat cyborg. So she's in between the two classes. Quasigod?
So vs Gilgamesh or Hercules.... how would it be handled?

I remembered the poor demigod Nanoha blasted by Ea....
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Old 2013-04-17, 23:00   Link #3225
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Pretty sure crossover thread ain't this way...
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Old 2013-04-18, 00:10   Link #3226
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Originally Posted by WarpObscura View Post
Yeah, I do think many forget that Subaru isn't a good representation of the average mage's durability. Tsuzuki's failure to give hard numbers isn't helping us either way. I mean, look at how anti-tank warfare has evolved; the stuff that would destroy WW1 or WW2 tanks, modern tanks would laugh at, roll right through and punish the poor idiot for his foolishness. "Anti-tank" is a very vague term by itself if we don't have more evidence.
Yeah... what about a battleship cannon though from a cannon equivalent to receiving direct fire by the Yamato or a tank with a 90mm gun...
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Old 2013-04-18, 09:07   Link #3227
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Or a giant, slow ass low penetration cannonball deflected by sheet of thick, low quality iron armoring.

Wait.
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Old 2013-04-18, 09:33   Link #3228
Hoki
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Well, didn't some of the Gadget drones use mass based weaponry? (target seeking missiles iirc equipped on Type Is and I guess some Type IIs) During the first appearance of the Numbers, Nanoha and Fate were taking fire from them. To be exact, they were launching missiles and hitting Nanoha's barrier, and she's not even bothered by it, only expressing concern that the drones were too many. Basing from that, I'd say that there is a huge gap between mass based weaponry and magic based weaponry in Mid-childa.

Even in Force, the AEC weapons are I think the term is "magically powered equipment" meant to replicate mass based weaponry damage output, since the Hucks, or any Eclipse infectee, are magic immune, while still utilizing a mage's magical capability, since they are going around that "mass based weapons are banned" thing. And we all know how effective they are.

A good question would be, "what kinds of mass based weapons were developed in mid childa before they stuck to magic based ones?" Given the fact that they had to ban their usage, I'm guessing some really nasty ones.
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Old 2013-04-18, 09:42   Link #3229
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Originally Posted by Hoki View Post
A good question would be, "what kinds of mass based weapons were developed in mid childa before they stuck to magic based ones?" Given the fact that they had to ban their usage, I'm guessing some really nasty ones.
Considering Runessa could get a license for a puny handgun, my bet is that only WMDs gets total ban - bioweapons, nerve agents, nukes, anti-matter bombs, the usual stuff.

If not for the threat of powerful and unstable lost-logias that are scattered all over what was formerly Belkan space, they probably would have ban Arc-en-Ciel's too.
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Old 2013-04-18, 09:57   Link #3230
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Or that the ban itself is relative much like our weapon bans are relative. In much of the Western world, it's not for the common citizen to own a fully automatic, assault rifle. Those are pretty commonly banned. Doesn't stop the military using them of course even though for most people they're banned. Same with nukes, they're banned but those with power have them in their back pockets 'just in case'.
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Old 2013-04-18, 10:07   Link #3231
Hoki
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Originally Posted by Cannonball View Post
Or that the ban itself is relative much like our weapon bans are relative. In much of the Western world, it's not for the common citizen to own a fully automatic, assault rifle. Those are pretty commonly banned. Doesn't stop the military using them of course even though for most people they're banned. Same with nukes, they're banned but those with power have them in their back pockets 'just in case'.
So, the TSAB could shell out their mass based WMDs if the situation calls for it? I guess letting Hayate run around with a shiny new ship chasing mass murderers is level one?
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Old 2013-04-18, 10:34   Link #3232
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Originally Posted by Hoki View Post
Well, didn't some of the Gadget drones use mass based weaponry? (target seeking missiles iirc equipped on Type Is and I guess some Type IIs) During the first appearance of the Numbers, Nanoha and Fate were taking fire from them. To be exact, they were launching missiles and hitting Nanoha's barrier, and she's not even bothered by it, only expressing concern that the drones were too many. Basing from that, I'd say that there is a huge gap between mass based weaponry and magic based weaponry in Mid-childa.
Hmmm, I believe this was addressed by us previously in a few simple steps.

We agreed essentially that Nanoha and most of her gang are elites amongst elites as far as mages go. They're tactical assets, and the only thing larger would be the strategic assets (the Fleets and all that jazz). So they're not really a good basis on which we can judge how magic generally does against kinetics. Especially not against Gadget drones. Not Type Is and IIs at least. Those are aped goods, grunts only good for suppressing those poor Ground Force fellows and knocking some of them flat. Starting to get the picture? Grunts don't do so well against Drones it seems.

Please note that if you need to take cover from something it's because it's seriously bad news if it hits you. I think if those peashooters the Drones were firing at them were so useless, the Ground Forces would be lining up like the Roman Legion, shields up front, firing shots left and right while tanking like a boss. But they didn't -the sensible fellows!- because they knew what they were up against. That says something in itself.

You pit guns against guns to compare their merits. Bringing Nanoha into the picture is lining up a blunderbuss against a platoon-sized military force. It's not even a 'apples and oranges; comparison, it's closer to a 'apples and The Sunkist Company' comparison. Aka not good, and not funny.

And frankly, even in our day missiles aren't even the be-all-end-all of kinetic weapons. What makes you think a MOAB or the Tsar Bomba isn't going to be a joke in a futuristic verse with FTL travel up the wazoo? Mind you, this is also a universe where their idea of a magical strategic armament is a 100km radius I WIN button, but they still need to ban kinetics? Obviously there must be some sort of scary bogeyman under the bed somewhere that they need to run from or keep under the bed.

So I'll concede that yes, Nanoha beat the missiles, in Mid-childa. But it makes no difference in the bigger picture - grunts aren't Nanoha, and Nanoha is the minority; missiles are twopence in a post-post-postmodern society, in a universe that the TSAB quite apparently does not control for all their efforts, bless them but hey, too bad - the multiverse is vast and wide. So comparing them and drawing the conclusion that magic beats guns all the time is a complete farce. It simply doesn't follow.

But here I hedge! I would say that both magic and guns are subject to the same rules - it's all a matter of scale. There's no clear 'who-beats-what', it's 'who can punch more gigajoules of directed force at the other guy'. And I think there's more than enough space for a wide spectrum of weapons on either side that can be used.

EDIT: And that's not even counting "who can do it more often" and "who can do it smarter". That brings a whole new level to the whole Technology thing - it brings in the inherent merits and weaknesses of said technology, their applications even. Both of these can turn the tide of a war, or completely remodel society in a well-placed stroke in time. Just look at nuclear energy, or steam power. What more for whatever they seem to have discovered in the far-flung future of the multiverse?

Last edited by XenahortCharybdis; 2013-04-18 at 10:58. Reason: 100km. Seriously now that's just going way overboard XD
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Old 2013-04-18, 10:37   Link #3233
Tiresias
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10 km? I thought the Arc has a 200 km radius?

EDIT: Wait, wiki gave the number of 100 km.
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Old 2013-04-18, 10:38   Link #3234
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100 km radius. Missed a 0

And none of this will ever stop me from using tactical nukes and ICBMs enhanced with MagiTech. Om nom nom.
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Old 2013-04-18, 10:41   Link #3235
ZeroXSEED
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Brother and sister, what said in the post above me is correct. One at sufficient velocity, no matter if it's magic or physical matter, or quantum particle thingamajing. Energy and scale is the key,
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Old 2013-04-18, 10:42   Link #3236
XenahortCharybdis
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10 km? I thought the Arc has a 200 km radius?

EDIT: Wait, wiki gave the number of 100 km.
Holy moly. Okay. I'll fix that stat. Gives that much scale to the whole situation anyway, thanks guys.
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Old 2013-04-18, 10:46   Link #3237
Tiresias
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Originally Posted by ZeroXSEED View Post
Brother and sister, what said in the post above me is correct. One at sufficient velocity, no matter if it's magic or physical matter, or quantum particle thingamajing. Energy and scale is the key,
Considering the Bureau uses a magitech supercannon, was the question magic vs technology even appropriate?
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Old 2013-04-18, 10:48   Link #3238
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It's probably completely out of the normal scale of thought, I think. We're thinking Space Epic class weaponry here.

And to think there is something about kinetics that this beast has to fear. 'Nuff freaking said.
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Old 2013-04-18, 10:52   Link #3239
Tiresias
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This reminds me. An episode of StrikerS also show that the Bureau also employ tanks. Anyone knows the specs of that thing? If there is none that I'm free to bullshit, woohoo
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Old 2013-04-18, 11:18   Link #3240
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So I'll concede that yes, Nanoha beat the missiles, in Mid-childa. But it makes no difference in the bigger picture - grunts aren't Nanoha, and Nanoha is the minority; missiles are twopence in a post-post-postmodern society, in a universe that the TSAB quite apparently does not control for all their efforts, bless them but hey, too bad - the multiverse is vast and wide. So comparing them and drawing the conclusion that magic beats guns all the time is a complete farce. It simply doesn't follow.
Not that Gadget Drones vs Grunts is a particularly good comparison either. Given the Drones are lost logia level autonomous weapons with anti-magic fields. And the principle cast has complained that grunts don't get enough anti-AMF training (because AMFs are rare, expensive and screw everyone over normally I would guess).
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