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Old 2007-06-23, 12:59   Link #321
Avatar_notADV
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One points out that nobody'd ever tested the Durandal on the Book (obviously, 'cause it's still around), so even Graham couldn't have been sure that it would work at all.

I'm not accusing Graham of cruelty, exactly - it's not his fault that Hayate got picked or anything. (Whether a quick word to Lindy would have been more effective than having his familiars kick around our heroes whenever they were getting the upper hand, well now, that's a different story. And certainly Aria and Lieze were just -mean- when they finally drove Hayate to activate the Book.)

We're just questioning his judgment. I'll grant that he never intended to use the Arc on the Book. But plan A is untested and has finicky timing, might not actually work, and not to put too fine a point on it, is quite illegal. It's not beyond reason that plan B (the usual "blow the crap out of the awakened Book with the Arc) would need to be implemented if something goes wrong with plan A.

But Hayate's in a location that makes plan B very, very, very bad. And she's there for no good reason on Graham's part. Okay, writers' imperative, if Hayate isn't a local to Nanoha, then they can't plausibly meet up on Christmas Eve at the hospital and the plot goes to hell. But there's only one reason -in the context of the story- that Graham chose to set up the Yagami household in Tokyo...

...and that is, if he was discovered/stopped, he needed to make plan B as unpalatable as possible, in order to convince whoever stopped him that plan A (Durandal) was the way to go. If she was out in the boonies somewhere, and it was "okay, kill a little girl and save the world", that's not that hard a choice for the TSAB folks. "Kill fifty million people, eliminate a major world capital, and save the world" is a good bit harder!

Even worse, it worked - Chrono came prepared to use the Durandal, despite the problems he had with everything, right up until Hayate popped out of the Book.

This makes Graham quite a bit more of a bastard than he would be otherwise. Not having any way to save Hayate, putting her in frozen sleep isn't too bad, from an ethical perspective. But putting her in some of the most heavily-inhabited real estate in the world, merely for the sake of making it easier to justify that act? That's some cold blood, there.

Can anybody think of an alternate in-character line of reasoning that would work here?
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Old 2007-06-29, 07:18   Link #322
maximilian06
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I was wondering about sth for a long time now( and although I searched the thread, I couldn't find about this; so sorry if I missed it ).

In A's, after Yuuno told Nanoha to " deal as much magical damage as you can", Nanoha used Excellion Buster Fourth Burst( or Force Burst?) followed by a " Break Shoot". The question is; why didn't she use Starlight Breaker when it is also pure magical and maybe the most powerful attack? Or am I overlooking something?
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Old 2007-06-29, 07:45   Link #323
Ottocycle
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Foresight?

As powerful as Starlight Breaker is, the effort it takes to cast and fire it isn't exactly worth the while on an opponent thats capable of dodging(hence the bind on Fate in the original) it. If it missed, Nanoha would probably be in quite a bind, as Reinforce I'll probably be able to kill her quite easily.

Also, even if she's able to get Fate out of Rein I with SLB, she'll probably be too tired to contend with the infinitely powerful Rein I, even if she's with Fate. So either way it doesn't work out for Nanoha.

Hence the (I presume) second most powerful artillery attack, the Excelion version of her Divine Buster.
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Old 2007-06-29, 07:57   Link #324
Skane
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Hmm? Has it ever been stated canonically that SLB is the stronger of the two?

Eh?
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Old 2007-06-29, 08:10   Link #325
Ottocycle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Hmm? Has it ever been stated canonically that SLB is the stronger of the two?

Eh?
Well, um, no. I'm basing it on these facts: 1. Its a ceremonial spell, 2. she used it against the stripped core of the YnS def. program, which definitely required her most destructive spell, and finally...

3. its association with Goku's Genki-Dama

EDIT: Oh this too: There's the promise with Fate to let loose her full power during their final fight in the first series as well, probably led Nanoha to use what she thought was the most powerful spell in her arsenal.

Its all circumstantial, I suppose.
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Old 2007-07-20, 14:16   Link #326
Keroko
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A continuation of an ongoing discussion in the character creation thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
Just one thing, Keroko, I was thinking of an explosion MUCH bigger than a simple Starlight Breaker. And also, I'm speaking of Nanoha's SLB, not Reinforce I's. I'm pretty sure Rein I's SLB was more powerful than Nanoha's.
So a Starlight Breaker is simple now? Also, I'm not so sure on the more powerful. If the one that nanoha fired in A's 2 was any indication.

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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
For a moment I was afraid you guys were planning to have mages capable of withstanding a full nuclear strike. I was getting scared there, really.
Of course not. Well, not ground zero anyway. Fortunately all this is relatively useless, as we won't see nukes used in Nanoha.

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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
But a magic explosion doesnt do the same as a nuclear explosion! There wasnt any fire, radiation, or what stormturmoil just mentioned... and there wasnt a lack of air. The fire itself will burn the remaining oxygen, if there is any.

And no, there was no lack of air after that SLB explosion. The four girls were breathing perfectly just after the blast was over.

That's why I've been discussing all the previous Dragon Slave stuff. A magical explosion is nowhere near as lethal than a nuclear explosion.
Who's talking about fire? Stormturmoil was talking about the air being blown away, which is exactly what that SLB did. The fact that the girls were all fine and breathing afterwards only proves my point.

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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
The barrier jacket can, sure, but what about your head and the small unprotected parts? And the air you breath... if there is any air. Whatever you breath is pure radiation and whatnot...
Fields cover the entire body, you know...

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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
@All of you I really dont see these 360 degree shields to be as powerful as apparently all of you think, even if they can withstand heat and stuff, as explained in the manga... How can a shield isolate you from even radiation?
Shields often shield from radiation in science fiction, can't see why the wouldn't do so here.

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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
Returning to the Magical vs Physical damage stuff, I've got another idea. This is in RPG terms. Physical damage hits the HP, and the Magical damage hits the MP. For those who have played Star Ocean 3, you can kill by damaging the MP... How about this one, Keroko?
Oh, quite simple actually. If it targets the MP, then those without Linker Cores -whom have no MP to target- wouldn't die. Why then did Arisa and Suzuka need protection?

Or, if they target the MP, then it would equal a draining of the Linker Core, yet we've seen no such drain whatsoever apart from Yami no Sho's absorption.

Two misiles, two hits.
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Old 2007-07-20, 14:41   Link #327
An Hero in Disguise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Of course not. Well, not ground zero anyway. Fortunately all this is relatively useless, as we won't see nukes used in Nanoha.
We can never be sure

Quote:
Fields cover the entire body, you know...
Agreed.

Quote:
Shields often shield from radiation in science fiction, can't see why the wouldn't do so here.
Agreed too, radiation is a stream of particles after all.

Quote:
Oh, quite simple actually. If it targets the MP, then those without Linker Cores -whom have no MP to target- wouldn't die. Why then did Arisa and Suzuka need protection?

Or, if they target the MP, then it would equal a draining of the Linker Core, yet we've seen no such drain whatsoever apart from Yami no Sho's absorption.

Two misiles, two hits.
If we were still in OC thread I'd bring up magical circuits and other stuff that can be affected by magical damage aside of Linker Cores. Here, well, I don't know, canon didn't seem to give a lot of details on the way magical damage works against non-magic-users.
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Old 2007-07-20, 14:46   Link #328
Erio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
A continuation of an ongoing discussion in the character creation thread:

So a Starlight Breaker is simple now? Also, I'm not so sure on the more powerful. If the one that nanoha fired in A's 2 was any indication.
You misunderstand, the problem is with the EXPLOSION part of SLB, not the size of the beam. Besides, you cant possibly think that Nanoha has as much power as Rein I...

And yes, this explosion is "simple" compared to a nuke's...

Quote:
Of course not. Well, not ground zero anyway. Fortunately all this is relatively useless, as we won't see nukes used in Nanoha.
Kha will have some...

Quote:
Who's talking about fire? Stormturmoil was talking about the air being blown away, which is exactly what that SLB did. The fact that the girls were all fine and breathing afterwards only proves my point.
Sorry, that last sentence of the first paragraph was out of place. My thoughts were mixed up. I will try again:

I dont see how this proves your point. You see, you're talking about the Aces being able to survive a magical explosion. Well, this is not the same as a nuclear explosion. In a magical explosion, I say again, there isnt any fire, radiation, or lack of air. In the case of a nuclear explosion, even if the air is not "blown away", the fire will consume it anyway. Also, the girls were not protected against anything right after the explosion, so proves that there isnt any nuclear radiation or any harmful side effects after the explosion.

So my argument stands. The girls have NOT been in such a situation before.

And again I repeat, there was no such thing as lack of air in SLB's explosion. The girls were breathing normally at all times.

Quote:
Fields cover the entire body, you know...
Sure, I already mentioned field magic in an earlier post. My argument about breathing stands.

Quote:
Shields often shield from radiation in science fiction, can't see why the wouldn't do so here.
I guess I dont watch much science fiction then. I will stand back on this one.

Quote:
Oh, quite simple actually. If it targets the MP, then those without Linker Cores -whom have no MP to target- wouldn't die. Why then did Arisa and Suzuka need protection?

Or, if they target the MP, then it would equal a draining of the Linker Core, yet we've seen no such drain whatsoever apart from Yami no Sho's absorption.

Two misiles, two hits.
The two missiles did not hit the target this time.

First, it proves that the idea of people not having a Linker Core at all makes no sense. On this same point, Arisa and Suzuka were inside the barrier, which supposedly got rid of any people without a LC... this just means, they do have one.

Second, again, Shamal and Signum did not ever intend to COMPLETELY drain their LC, or they would have killed them. They wanted magical energy; they didnt want to kill for it, though.
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Old 2007-07-20, 15:07   Link #329
An Hero in Disguise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
And yes, this explosion is "simple" compared to a nuke's...
Excluding ionizing radiation a nuke's explosion is not different from a regular one, just many times more powerful.

Quote:
Sorry, that last sentence of the first paragraph was out of place. My thoughts were mixed up. I will try again:

I dont see how this proves your point. You see, you're talking about the Aces being able to survive a magical explosion. Well, this is not the same as a nuclear explosion. In a magical explosion, I say again, there isnt any fire, radiation, or lack of air. In the case of a nuclear explosion, even if the air is not "blown away", the fire will consume it anyway. Also, the girls were not protected against anything right after the explosion, so proves that there isnt any nuclear radiation or any harmful side effects after the explosion.

So my argument stands. The girls have NOT been in such a situation before.

And again I repeat, there was no such thing as lack of air in SLB's explosion. The girls were breathing normally at all times.
Fire wouldn't be a problem I think, only super-high tempertures near ground zero are a real threat in nukes' cases. BJ can most probably protect from radiation. Problems with air would be serious only if mages had no freedom of action after the blast, it's not like the oxygen was burned in some closed space. Though yes - SLB is different from a nuke, I won't deny it.

Quote:
First, it proves that the idea of people not having a Linker Core at all makes no sense. On this same point, Arisa and Suzuka were inside the barrier, which supposedly got rid of any people without a LC... this just means, they do have one.

Second, again, Shamal and Signum did not ever intend to COMPLETELY drain their LC, or they would have killed them. They wanted magical energy; they didnt want to kill for it, though.
Well, I think the idea is canon. Though I would like to agree with you on this.

Agreed on the point of no cases of complete drainage of LC.
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Old 2007-07-20, 15:23   Link #330
Erio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
Excluding ionizing radiation a nuke's explosion is not different from a regular one, just many times more powerful.

Fire wouldn't be a problem I think, only super-high tempertures near ground zero are a real threat in nukes' cases. BJ can most probably protect from radiation. Problems with air would be serious only if mages had no freedom of action after the blast, it's not like the oxygen was burned in some closed space. Though yes - SLB is different from a nuke, I won't deny it.

Well, I think the idea is canon. Though I would like to agree with you on this.

Agreed on the point of no cases of complete drainage of LC.
About the fire issue, I think we both think the same way. I agree with all points you mentioned.

The fire itself would be the least harmful side effect of the nuclear explosion, though still not something to be taken lightly. More of a problem will be the smoke and the lack of oxygen, which could be lethal to any person. Even if there is air to breath, you will be breathing smoke... you just breathe once, and all your strength and stamina will take a huge hit. In other words, you have to act extremely quickly to get out.
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Old 2007-07-20, 15:36   Link #331
An Hero in Disguise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
The fire itself would be the least harmful side effect of the nuclear explosion, though still not something to be taken lightly. More of a problem will be the smoke and the lack of oxygen, which could be lethal to any person. Even if there is air to breath, you will be breathing smoke... you just breathe once, and all your strength and stamina will take a huge hit. In other words, you have to act extremely quickly to get out.
There's the possibility that BJ can protect against breathing smoke too, during the airport fire incident in StrikerS the victims were all coughing and stuff while Nanoha and Fate didn't seem to have problems.
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Old 2007-07-20, 15:49   Link #332
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
You misunderstand, the problem is with the EXPLOSION part of SLB, not the size of the beam. Besides, you cant possibly think that Nanoha has as much power as Rein I...
Since Nanoha's beam didn't impact, we have no way to gouge it's strength. But judging by the beams width, it would have been just as strong. Reinforce simply copied Nanoha's spell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
And yes, this explosion is "simple" compared to a nuke's...
How so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
Kha will have some...
which goes to show its not all that bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
Sorry, that last sentence of the first paragraph was out of place. My thoughts were mixed up. I will try again:

I dont see how this proves your point. You see, you're talking about the Aces being able to survive a magical explosion. Well, this is not the same as a nuclear explosion. In a magical explosion, I say again, there isnt any fire, radiation, or lack of air. In the case of a nuclear explosion, even if the air is not "blown away", the fire will consume it anyway. Also, the girls were not protected against anything right after the explosion, so proves that there isnt any nuclear radiation or any harmful side effects after the explosion.

So my argument stands. The girls have NOT been in such a situation before.

And again I repeat, there was no such thing as lack of air in SLB's explosion. The girls were breathing normally at all times.
Since you are so fond of realism on this, let me point something out: There was a lot of rubble and dust being thrown at them before the blast hit. Now, this means either one of two things:

A: The rubble was due to the fact that the beam was physical.

B: The ruble was blown away because the air was blown away.

In either case, it proves a point of mine. Either the SLB was physical, or the air was being blown away, which means the defenses and the people within could survive a nuklear blast.

(An Hero's post about the Heavy Barrel not being a magic attack has recandled my battle against Magical Damage. )

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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
Sure, I already mentioned field magic in an earlier post. My argument about breathing stands.
Wasn't it already proven in this thread that Barrier Jackets provide safety guards for both?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
The two missiles did not hit the target this time.
You dodged the blanks. Perpare for the real ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
First, it proves that the idea of people not having a Linker Core at all makes no sense. On this same point, Arisa and Suzuka were inside the barrier, which supposedly got rid of any people without a LC... this just means, they do have one.
Sure, except the Linker Core issue was proven in canon. Which means that the only issue is the apearance of Arissa and Suzuka. It is never explained in the show just why they apeared there. A possible theory of mine is that their close contact with both Fate, Nanoha and hayate left some sort of residual magic, which allowed them to slip past the barrier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
Second, again, Shamal and Signum did not ever intend to COMPLETELY drain their LC, or they would have killed them. They wanted magical energy; they didnt want to kill for it, though.
It's still not proven that complete draining of the Core kills a mage. If it was, people without them couldn't exist. If it was, fate would have been in life threatening danger after her Core was drained (which again, Lindy said she was not).
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Old 2007-07-20, 16:54   Link #333
Erio
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*me furiously STRANGLES Keroko*

()

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Since Nanoha's beam didn't impact, we have no way to gouge it's strength. But judging by the beams width, it would have been just as strong. Reinforce simply copied Nanoha's spell.
OK OK, letme put it differently. DO NOT look at the size of the beam, because it could just be eyecandy. Just take Nanoha's power level vs Reinforce I's power level....

Quote:
How so?
When it explodes, it sends a wave of magical damage. After you block that, you're safe, as shown in Reinforce I's SLB scene.

Quote:
which goes to show its not all that bad.
I'll ignore this one.

Quote:
Since you are so fond of realism on this, let me point something out: There was a lot of rubble and dust being thrown at them before the blast hit. Now, this means either one of two things:

A: The rubble was due to the fact that the beam was physical.

B: The ruble was blown away because the air was blown away.

In either case, it proves a point of mine. Either the SLB was physical, or the air was being blown away, which means the defenses and the people within could survive a nuklear blast.

(An Hero's post about the Heavy Barrel not being a magic attack has recandled my battle against Magical Damage. )
*stares at Keroko*

LISTEN, you... Black Demon ... If you recall, I clearly said that the blast itself, if its not powerful, or if you're far away enough, CAN be blocked by barriers. HOWEVER, if you survive the blast (read as: you're a GENIUS at barriers) then the side effects will consume you. The side effects can be lethal! The fire, the extreme heat, the radiation, the lack of breathable air, smoke, no oxygen... all this stuff is present after a nuclear explosion, and NOT after a magical explosion.

And there's proof for that! Again, Reinforce I's SLB. After the explosion, the girls were breathing normally, and there was absolutely nothing wrong with the environment.

Now, one more thing. The shield that covers you 360 degrees is not as powerful as a Round Shield that covers only one side. So, in order to survive the FIRST blast, you definitely need a Round Shield. But letme ask you, even if you're Yuuno or Arf, can you POSSIBLY set up a 360 degree shield, and/or a field defense in that SPLIT of a second just after the blast, before the fire and everything else engulfs you? In my view, that's impossible.



And BTW, I think that rubble is pure BS. Pure eyecandy, as in "damn, that looks powerful!"

But well, I did say before a few times, I do agree that SLB does a BIT of physical damage, as its shown in season 1 that it splashes water around... HOWEVER, this water thing may very well be just eyecandy as well.

Damn producers, making us argue!!

Quote:
Wasn't it already proven in this thread that Barrier Jackets provide safety guards for both?
I dont remember, but fine I'll yield on this one...

Even if it has been proven or not, though, I just cant picture a barrier jacket being THIS good... but I dont mind... I'm good... Its all good...

Quote:
You dodged the blanks. Perpare for the real ones.

Sure, except the Linker Core issue was proven in canon. Which means that the only issue is the apearance of Arissa and Suzuka. It is never explained in the show just why they apeared there. A possible theory of mine is that their close contact with both Fate, Nanoha and hayate left some sort of residual magic, which allowed them to slip past the barrier.
My theory is similar to yours, however, because of their contact with Nanoha, Fate and Hayate, their LC awakened.

Seriously, before this season started, I was totally expecting at least Arisa coming in like "SUP! I became a mage in secret to surprise you all... and I just passed the SSS rank test!" (j/k about the rank, btw)

Quote:
It's still not proven that complete draining of the Core kills a mage. If it was, people without them couldn't exist. If it was, fate would have been in life threatening danger after her Core was drained (which again, Lindy said she was not).
Hmm hmm hmm hmm... how can I explain what I think... think they have a "mana pool" in their bodies, and the Linker Core constantly adds mana to it. Then comes Shamal and drains this mana pool, but leaves some in order to not kill the victim. The mana pool is left with just a bit of mana, and thus the owner is in "critical condition" as in "very weak". Then they just need to rest so that the Linker Core can replenish that mana pool.

That's how I view it. And you?
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Old 2007-07-20, 17:37   Link #334
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
*me furiously STRANGLES Keroko*

()
I have that effect at times.

Usually means they're about to crumble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
OK OK, letme put it differently. DO NOT look at the size of the beam, because it could just be eyecandy. Just take Nanoha's power level vs Reinforce I's power level....
Oh now it's eyecandy! Why is it that whenever I use 'lazy animators' as an excuse you try to logic it, but whenever I bring up the size of attacks and details surounding it, it becomes 'eye candy?'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
When it explodes, it sends a wave of magical damage. After you block that, you're safe, as shown in Reinforce I's SLB scene.
*shrug* can't really argue with that, even with my version of Magical Damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
*stares at Keroko*

LISTEN, you... Black Demon ... If you recall, I clearly said that the blast itself, if its not powerful, or if you're far away enough, CAN be blocked by barriers. HOWEVER, if you survive the blast (read as: you're a GENIUS at barriers) then the side effects will consume you. The side effects can be lethal! The fire, the extreme heat, the radiation, the lack of breathable air, smoke, no oxygen... all this stuff is present after a nuclear explosion, and NOT after a magical explosion.
That can all be dealt with. Refer to the airport scene where Fate's barrier protects the victims from the smoke, and gives them a fresh air suply. This means a barrier can provide and keep a stable airsuply. Keeping the heat out is only logical, as it is a defensive spell. Barriers and shields often keep out radiation, so this is a no-brainer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
And there's proof for that! Again, Reinforce I's SLB. After the explosion, the girls were breathing normally, and there was absolutely nothing wrong with the environment.
Or it could mean that the barrier kept them all nice and safe from the vacuŁm that was created.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
Now, one more thing. The shield that covers you 360 degrees is not as powerful as a Round Shield that covers only one side. So, in order to survive the FIRST blast, you definitely need a Round Shield. But letme ask you, even if you're Yuuno or Arf, can you POSSIBLY set up a 360 degree shield, and/or a field defense in that SPLIT of a second just after the blast, before the fire and everything else engulfs you? In my view, that's impossible.
Arf, in episode 5, managed to recognize the danger, gather Fate and Nanoha in one spot and cast not one, not two, but three 360 degree barriers blocking a direct hit from Yami no Sho. Yami no Sho! Not some sad little nuke, but The book of Darkness!

besides, the shockwave needs time too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
And BTW, I think that rubble is pure BS. Pure eyecandy, as in "damn, that looks powerful!"
I think Im going to start using the lazy animators again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
But well, I did say before a few times, I do agree that SLB does a BIT of physical damage, as its shown in season 1 that it splashes water around... HOWEVER, this water thing may very well be just eyecandy as well.

Damn producers, making us argue!!
It would help if we had some erata explaining this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
I dont remember, but fine I'll yield on this one...

Even if it has been proven or not, though, I just cant picture a barrier jacket being THIS good... but I dont mind... I'm good... Its all good...
Once again, you have to remember that a Barrier Jacket involves more then just a fancy piece of clothing. Multiple spells are involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
My theory is similar to yours, however, because of their contact with Nanoha, Fate and Hayate, their LC awakened.
When I saw them in that barrier I was half hoping that they were just like Nanoha, having a Linker Core and huge potential and all, and were going to join the team. Still a bit different from your theory, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
Seriously, before this season started, I was totally expecting at least Arisa coming in like "SUP! I became a mage in secret to surprise you all... and I just passed the SSS rank test!" (j/k about the rank, btw)
I know... I would have loved to see Burning Arisa...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
Hmm hmm hmm hmm... how can I explain what I think... think they have a "mana pool" in their bodies, and the Linker Core constantly adds mana to it. Then comes Shamal and drains this mana pool, but leaves some in order to not kill the victim. The mana pool is left with just a bit of mana, and thus the owner is in "critical condition" as in "very weak". Then they just need to rest so that the Linker Core can replenish that mana pool.

That's how I view it. And you?
In my view the Linker Core is the mana pool, and when you drain it -even completely- it will just refill itself over time. Just like your energy does.

And once more, Fate was not in critical condition. That's the entire bloody point!

Oh, and I just found this quote of yours in the OC section:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
Well, I dont think we're "trying to throw in too much realism"... the thing is, all the magic damage stuff, what you hate, is just way too confusing... we're just trying to put it into perspective, comparing it to "real" damage.
See, this is another reason why I don't bother with the Magic Damage stuff, it needlesly confuses everything. It's all very simple, really:

-Magical Damage and Physical Damage are one and the same. Magical Damage merely means that the damage was dealt through a spell.

-The reason people get shot and come out without a scratch is because of the Barrier Jackets.

-The reason giant beams hit a city and everything keeps standing is because of barriers.

See? Very simple, no need to go and make everything difficult.
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Old 2007-07-20, 17:53   Link #335
An Hero in Disguise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Arf, in episode 5, managed to recognize the danger, gather Fate and Nanoha in one spot and cast not one, not two, but three 360 degree barriers blocking a direct hit from Yami no Sho. Yami no Sho! Not some sad little nuke, but The book of Darkness!

besides, the shockwave needs time too.
Do not underestimate the power of nukes Theoretically there's almost no limit to the explosive power of a thermonuclear bomb, only the amount of "fuel" matters

Quote:
See, this is another reason why I don't bother with the Magic Damage stuff, it needlesly confuses everything. It's all very simple, really:

-Magical Damage and Physical Damage are one and the same. Magical Damage merely means that the damage was dealt through a spell.

-The reason people get shot and come out without a scratch is because of the Barrier Jackets.

-The reason giant beams hit a city and everything keeps standing is because of barriers.

See? Very simple, no need to go and make everything difficult.
Would be good if it were that simple But there're moments in canon that imply difference between physical and magical damage both done by spells, like Teana's case.
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Old 2007-07-20, 18:04   Link #336
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
Would be good if it were that simple But there're moments in canon that imply difference between physical and magical damage both done by spells, like Teana's case.
How so? Mages can control how hard the spell will hit. Nanoha's blasts were simply rubber bullet type rather then armor piercing.
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Old 2007-07-20, 18:41   Link #337
stormturmoil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko
Arf, in episode 5, managed to recognize the danger, gather Fate and Nanoha in one spot and cast not one, not two, but three 360 degree barriers blocking a direct hit from Yami no Sho. Yami no Sho! Not some sad little nuke, but The book of Darkness!

besides, the shockwave needs time too.

Do not underestimate the power of nukes Theoretically there's almost no limit to the explosive power of a thermonuclear bomb, only the amount of "fuel" matters

Not wholly true...there's a 'practical' limit of ten megatons to any kind of explosion when used on a planetary body, because once you reach this 'threshold' if you will, the vast majority of the explosive effects are actually blasted right out of the atmosphere, and the demonstrated effects actually become less than a lower rated blast.

This is why ICBM's are now regularly loaded with low megatonnage Multiple independently targeted re-entry Vehicles (MIRV's) rather than single huge 'tzar bomba' style massive megatonnage warheads...aside from the obvious coverage issues

Incidentally, this 'effective threshold' might be just as relevant to magically inflicted explosions as well, meaning that you might get more bang from a smaller better aimed blast than from a huge ball of doom that blasts itself into orbit rather than stay put and do damage... Of course, it would depend on the nature of the spells involved...
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Old 2007-07-20, 19:26   Link #338
Erio
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Join Date: Apr 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I have that effect at times.

Usually means they're about to crumble.
Dont worry, I'm still standing.

Quote:
Oh now it's eyecandy! Why is it that whenever I use 'lazy animators' as an excuse you try to logic it, but whenever I bring up the size of attacks and details surounding it, it becomes 'eye candy?'
That's simple: because it would help me contradict you.



Seriously, though, first, I agree 100% with lazy animators. They are the cause of our endless argument here.

Second, the reason why I used eye candy this time is because you said:

Quote:
But judging by the beams width, it would have been just as strong.
This, in my opinion, is extremely misleading. There are a bunch of stuff that you can take in consideration, such as energy compression. Just look at Dragon Ball Z, all beams are of random sizes, but later in the series, the same beam does 100000 more damage than the same one 10 years ago. Makes sense? Not at all.

This is just animation stuff.

Quote:
*shrug* can't really argue with that, even with my version of Magical Damage.
WOOHOO! One less point to argue.

Quote:
That can all be dealt with. Refer to the airport scene where Fate's barrier protects the victims from the smoke, and gives them a fresh air suply. This means a barrier can provide and keep a stable airsuply. Keeping the heat out is only logical, as it is a defensive spell. Barriers and shields often keep out radiation, so this is a no-brainer.
That's not the point!!!!

The whole point is that a Nuclear Explosion is NOT THE SAME as a Magical Explosion, because of all the factors I described, and that the Aces have NEVER BEEN IN SUCH SITUATION.

And no, the airport stuff DOES NOT COUNT. First, the explosion was not big at all, or the airport would have been completely wiped out... no piece of building standing. And second, the Aces were not there at the time of the explosion. When they got there, only small flames were around the place, and smoke was the only thing they had to take care off, and they did with their 360 shields. In other words, they were PREPARED to be in such situation, so they went into the airport with their 360 shields on.

Quote:
Or it could mean that the barrier kept them all nice and safe from the vacuŁm that was created.
First, the 360 barrier was only cast on Arisa and Suzuka. Second, the barrier was cast off the second the explosion stopped. So, no.

Quote:
Arf, in episode 5, managed to recognize the danger, gather Fate and Nanoha in one spot and cast not one, not two, but three 360 degree barriers blocking a direct hit from Yami no Sho. Yami no Sho! Not some sad little nuke, but The book of Darkness!

besides, the shockwave needs time too.
Remember, Zafira stopped fighting to tell Arf "Hey, protect your allies." Yuuno noticed because he wasnt doing anything, and he saw the huge dark lightning hit the time-space barrier from the outside and went "Oh sh--!" And immediately started casting his defensive spell. If you notice, he has to concentrate quite a bit before pulling off his barrier.

Now, picture the same event, where the Wolkenritter are assholes and dont say anything about the incoming magical nuke, and the barrier was not present, so the Annihilation Lightning instantly hits the battlefield... Not even Arf or Yuuno could get barriers up in a split of a second to survive such thing. Our heroes would have been DEAD. (For more about Annihilation Lightning, check the last of my responses on this post)

And about the "shockwave needs time too" part, YES, that's why I say, you can get ready for the first blast, but then you would be engulfed in flames, etc etc... look below.

I'll copy paste my last argument again:

"Now, one more thing. The shield that covers you 360 degrees is not as powerful as a Round Shield that covers only one side. So, in order to survive the FIRST blast, you definitely need a Round Shield. But letme ask you, even if you're Yuuno or Arf, can you POSSIBLY set up a 360 degree shield, and/or a field defense in that SPLIT of a second just after the blast, before the fire and everything else engulfs you? In my view, that's impossible."

This still stands. There's NO WAY you can react that fast. If you contradict this, I'll just drop this discussion, as it really wont make any sense to me. Besides, almost all of our characters are trained to attack. You have to be a barrier master to be able to even withstand the first blast of a nuclear explosion.

OK, seriously, if you argue against all I've said here, and still think that such thing is possible, I just dont know what else to say. I have explained things as best as I can this time.

...I just dont know what else to say.

Quote:
Once again, you have to remember that a Barrier Jacket involves more then just a fancy piece of clothing. Multiple spells are involved.
Hey, I know that. But seriously, why do you have so much faith in a BJ? The BJ clearly does not cover your entire body, so you're still vulnerable! And against a huge explosion that hits every single part of your body, front and back, top and bottom... Sincerely, I just dont get it. And before you say anything about barriers and field defenses, this part of the discussion involves only the Barrier Jacket... Just think of a situation where you dont know what hit you and could not set up any type of barrier on time.

Quote:
In my view the Linker Core is the mana pool, and when you drain it -even completely- it will just refill itself over time. Just like your energy does.

And once more, Fate was not in critical condition. That's the entire bloody point!
OK, lets use "critical condition" a different way then... she was not in such state because her life was not in danger. However, she was still pretty weak. That's the effect of having your mana drained.

Quote:
Oh, and I just found this quote of yours in the OC section:

See, this is another reason why I don't bother with the Magic Damage stuff, it needlesly confuses everything. It's all very simple, really:

-Magical Damage and Physical Damage are one and the same. Magical Damage merely means that the damage was dealt through a spell.

-The reason people get shot and come out without a scratch is because of the Barrier Jackets.

-The reason giant beams hit a city and everything keeps standing is because of barriers.

See? Very simple, no need to go and make everything difficult.
I wish it was that easy... however, even inside the time-space barrier, buildings ARE destroyable. The sole fact that the buildings are not destroyed or even scratched after Annihilation Lightning or Starlight Breaker proves that these two spells deal magical damage. And notice that Annihilation Lightning hit the CITY ITSELF. The Lightning hit the time-space barrier from the outside and broke it, and so the real-time, real-life city itself was hit. And yet not a single building got even scratched.
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Old 2007-07-20, 22:03   Link #339
Kha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormturmoil View Post
Not wholly true...there's a 'practical' limit of ten megatons to any kind of explosion when used on a planetary body, because once you reach this 'threshold' if you will, the vast majority of the explosive effects are actually blasted right out of the atmosphere, and the demonstrated effects actually become less than a lower rated blast.

This is why ICBM's are now regularly loaded with low megatonnage Multiple independently targeted re-entry Vehicles (MIRV's) rather than single huge 'tzar bomba' style massive megatonnage warheads...aside from the obvious coverage issues

Incidentally, this 'effective threshold' might be just as relevant to magically inflicted explosions as well, meaning that you might get more bang from a smaller better aimed blast than from a huge ball of doom that blasts itself into orbit rather than stay put and do damage... Of course, it would depend on the nature of the spells involved...
Yeah this is one fun nerf! I'm gonna cram all the megatonnage into the Nuclear Nova cartridge! It's all about one big Exprozion, ne?

MWAHAHAHAHAHA...!!!

Besides, that all that expolsive energy is usually used to power the Buster Rifle instead of mindlessly throwing a good working cartridge at the enemy. And given this information it makes it even more silly to do that.

I suppose a super-large and round explosion, like we see in UC-era Gundam, can take out a fleet in space and scare the remainder enough to not follow?
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Old 2007-07-21, 01:05   Link #340
An Hero in Disguise
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Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
How so? Mages can control how hard the spell will hit. Nanoha's blasts were simply rubber bullet type rather then armor piercing.
Because there was no physical impact on her? If the strength of a physical blast was enough to knock Teana out she should've been pushed back quite considerably, probably sent flying through the air, she didn't use any kind of shields to negate such effect and BJ alone surely can't do this.

Also look at Diabolic Emission spell for example - there was no barrier around that city part in StrikerS I believe, yet no physical damage was dealt to the surroundings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stormturmoil View Post
Not wholly true...there's a 'practical' limit of ten megatons to any kind of explosion when used on a planetary body, because once you reach this 'threshold' if you will, the vast majority of the explosive effects are actually blasted right out of the atmosphere, and the demonstrated effects actually become less than a lower rated blast.

This is why ICBM's are now regularly loaded with low megatonnage Multiple independently targeted re-entry Vehicles (MIRV's) rather than single huge 'tzar bomba' style massive megatonnage warheads...aside from the obvious coverage issues

Incidentally, this 'effective threshold' might be just as relevant to magically inflicted explosions as well, meaning that you might get more bang from a smaller better aimed blast than from a huge ball of doom that blasts itself into orbit rather than stay put and do damage... Of course, it would depend on the nature of the spells involved...
Does this work the same way with heat and ionizing radiation as with physical blast wave? (I'm kinda lazy to look for it now) Also atmospheric explosions aren't the only possible method, I believe that underground ones would at least have another value of the threshold. And 10 MT would've probably already been more powerful than what YnS did that time anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
This, in my opinion, is extremely misleading. There are a bunch of stuff that you can take in consideration, such as energy compression. Just look at Dragon Ball Z, all beams are of random sizes, but later in the series, the same beam does 100000 more damage than the same one 10 years ago. Makes sense? Not at all.
Yeah, energy compression Generally in anime the wider the beam the more powerful it is, while actually it'd be the opposite.

Quote:
And no, the airport stuff DOES NOT COUNT. First, the explosion was not big at all, or the airport would have been completely wiped out... no piece of building standing. And second, the Aces were not there at the time of the explosion. When they got there, only small flames were around the place, and smoke was the only thing they had to take care off, and they did with their 360 shields. In other words, they were PREPARED to be in such situation, so they went into the airport with their 360 shields on.
Well, I mentioned the airport accident only to show that barriers really deal with the problem of breathing in polluted air, that's all.
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