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Old 2007-07-21, 16:30   Link #361
stormturmoil
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only tangentially related ( explained later...) but after watching episode 14, I have a thought

the STAB has apparently replaced use of 'mass-based physical technology' with 'magical civilisation' on administered worlds, according to Fate, Caro and Erio's discussion in the chopper...

the question is...HOW?

Now obviously , this doesn't affect the kinds of low end weapons that define low end crime...there will always be knives, hammer etc. You can't build a civilization without nails, and a hammer can be used to hit a person on the head just as easily as a nail, but...

the removal of technologised weapons, from guns up to strategic type weapons is not just a technological, but a political process. just as much to the point, it is in fact taking the freedom to defend yourself (or for Nations to prevent aggression) from the common man and placing it in the hands of the privileged few who are lucky enough to be born with magical power. Now, in theory, as long as those few are fair and efficient, and willing to accept their responsibility to protect all the others, it shouldn't be a problem, right...?

But we all know, power has a tendency to corrupt...and absolute power corrupts absolutely...

But even corruption isn't necessary. If the mages slack off, or look down upon the non-mages, the system has failed right there...what happens then...?

so, in 75-150 years, they have managed to turn multiple civilizations away from their comfortable technology based lives to embrace an entirely different philosophy that puts absolute power in the hands of a lucky few born with it?

the trouble is, I can only see that turning out in three ways, which are:

1: STAB shows up, bombs the civilization into the stone age (literally!) and then rebuilds it from the ground up...

2: The STAB move into worlds that have already done this to themselves with nuclear weapons

3: the STAB infiltrate worlds and convince them to enact no. 2 for them.

This obviously paints the STAB in a far less complimentary light than previously, but I can't see them being able to do it any other way. As a result, if this is true, it provides circumstantial evidence that Mages (as a group, not necessarily individually) have some means to defend against even strategic-level thermonuclear weapons, because if these civilizations had them when the STAB arrived to carry out this plan, they would have used them...and yet the STAB clearly has won despite this.

imagine the STAB trying to turn Earth into an administered world, for example...would the governments of the world put away their nukes, step down and hand power over to a bunch of kids that have power merely through accident of birth?

Like hell they would! They'd give 'em hell with a hand grenade, not to mention any and every other form of weapon available to them, up to, and including strategic Thermonuclear weapons if they got pushed hard enough...
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Old 2007-07-21, 16:36   Link #362
Keroko
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Hmm, calmer, and much more organised. *nods* we're moving back in the right direction.

But... just to be on the safe side... please know that in no way am I trying to annoy you Erio. I am just misunderstanding your points at times, and disagreeing on others. I am sincerely hoping that after this we can simply shake hands, congratulate on an agreement, and move along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
The only problem I've been having with you is that apparently everything I say just doesnt make sense to you. Its getting frustrating, I gotta say.
well, I've been having the same problem. Minus the frustration, but that's because I used to argue with brick walls in the past. That's far worse then a misunderstanding like this.

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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
Letme ask you. Why do you keep disagreeing with what I've been saying then? I've already taken everything you say here into consideration... I just dont get it. I described a situation where... you know, I'll try it one more time because I feel like typing right now.
Like I said, we completely misunderstood one another. That, and we argued points in a random and disorganized fashion. That was part of the frustration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
First I'm going point by point:
  • I already know ground zero is a no. I too was describing a situation where they know the explosion's outer edge is coming. I will be repeating it again in a moment.
  • I agree also, heat, lack of air, radiation; those things dont matter to a good mage.
  • Yes, the force depends on the distance from ground zero.
  • Mages are not stupid. But letme ask you, what makes you think in every situation they KNOW a nuclear bomb is going to explode? What if they dont know its coming?
In the case they don't know a nuke is coming... they are very very screwed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
Here's the situation again. PLEASE read. *tries to breathe*
I will go through the list point for point, so be asured I will read all of it. I even made a card below to clarify just where the mage decided to stop running and start tanking.

Spoiler for the list:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
If that doesnt make sense, I dont know what does, really. If you are just thinking about situations where you're SO far away from the explosion that you are able to see it without doing anything, then you're talking about something else. If that was the case, YOU SHOULD HAVE SAID SO, because you're driving me crazy here.
Maybe I should use a card to show just how far I was talking about, to make it a bit more easy to understand:

Spoiler for the card:


As you can see, the mage cleared the "Absolute Painless Death" area, made it through the "Horrendously Conflagarated" part, and the greatest part of the "Well Done Skeleton" part. The part where he is now should be survivable, with damage being along the lines of the stronger buildings being torn, but not leveled.

Of course, this is asuming you're an air mage. If you're a ground mage... well... better hope your budies have teleporters, cause I don't think you will even make it out of the "Absolute Painless Death" area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
My view on Magic Damage is, indeed, different.

Pure magical damage is like damage to the spirit, to the linker core, of a person. The damage does not affect the body directly (that is, no "physical" damage). This has been proven plenty of times in canon. There IS Magical Damage, period. And such magical damage does not deal physical damage to the body or destroy buildings.
So the strugle becomes deciding which attacks are Magical Damage and which are not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
Now, there are spells which combine Magical Damage with Physical Damage. A good example are almost all of Fate's attacks, which all look like Lightning. If you have noticed, these spells are not elemental. They are part magical and part elemental. If I had to guess a ratio, I would say 80% magical, 20% elemental. That's why she needs a pure elemental spell (weather manipulation) such as Thunder Fall, to be able to penetrate AMF.
And this is where confusion starts to settle in. We've seen Nanoha's attacks punching through AMF's like they weren't there, and as far aswe know all of nanoha's attacks are magical in nature. How do we decide which ones are physical and which ones are magical?

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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
As far as I know, the idea behind the TSAB banning conventional weapons is so there wont be tools for massive destruction available. If that's the case, then their Mid-Childa magic should not have any spells that deal purely Physical Damage, or those spells would go against their own principle. Remember that Mid-Childa magic was created to replace conventional weapons. That there ARE spells capable of dealing purely Physical Damage? I dont doubt that. Surely there are. However, they should be prohibited by law. Remember that our governments, wherever we are in the world, break their own laws, so this is totally possible. However, we have yet to see something like this in the anime.
Three words: Arc-en-Ciel.

It's a magical weapon with a destructive radius worse then any nuke in our planets current arsenal. It was said to be able to lay waste to the city. It is a magical weapon of mass destruction. And the TSAB authorized it.

What the TSAB banned were the kind of weapons that anyone could use. To quote Fate: "Even a child could push a button and end the world."

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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
Now you're going to say, "Hayate's Tac-Nukes"? They surely blew those drones away. However, to tell you the truth, those didnt look like nuclear explosions. There was no fire, no elemental damage. If I had to comment on this spell, it was, again, part magical and part physical. Apparently, the ratio is more equal than those of Fate's spells. 70/30 or maybe 60/40... dunno, a guess.
I'm merely calling them tac-nukes because they explode with the awesomeness of one. Really.

Still... the ratio thing is odd, unproven, and riddled with guesses. I'm having trouble painting it as reliable.

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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
I already read the manga, and I know that perfectly.

My argument is very, very simple. The BJ itself has all those properties, but they do NOT cover the unprotected areas, JUST AS a regular Bullet Proof Jacket.
*sweatdrop* You know... when we are discussing Barrier Jacket's I'm having this hunch I feel exactly like you do when you're trying to explain nukes to me... anyhoo, fields cover the entire body. *points to Vita, episode 6*

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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
Am I wrong? I have no idea. However, there is proof that the aces have received bruises where the barrier jackets are not protecting them.
Two things, 1: how do you know they did not have bruising underneath their jackets as well? I never said the barriers and fields were invincible. 2: There have been cases of the cast being thrown through buildings, and coming out without a scratch. If BJ's did not give full protection, they should have recieved scratches, bruises, anything. Yet, they didn't. This proves that they are protected even where the cloth does not reach.

@ Stormturmoil:
I think we are looking at the reason why there are stil non-administrated worlds. It's a political process that takes time. Though with the entire policing issue, I can't help but agree. That is a rather curious turn of events. Though you have to remember, earth seems to be somewhat rare in the way that it has few with magic potential.
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Old 2007-07-21, 18:54   Link #363
Erio
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Hmm, calmer, and much more organised. *nods* we're moving back in the right direction.

But... just to be on the safe side... please know that in no way am I trying to annoy you Erio. I am just misunderstanding your points at times, and disagreeing on others. I am sincerely hoping that after this we can simply shake hands, congratulate on an agreement, and move along.
Good to know. And while I was indeed getting annoyed, I by no means am personally annoyed at you, so no problem with that.

Quote:
well, I've been having the same problem. Minus the frustration, but that's because I used to argue with brick walls in the past. That's far worse then a misunderstanding like this.

Like I said, we completely misunderstood one another. That, and we argued points in a random and disorganized fashion. That was part of the frustration.
I usually just drop the conversation as soon as I find a brick wall.

Quote:
In the case they don't know a nuke is coming... they are very very screwed.
Good. At least that point got through.

I dont know about you, but being surprised by a nuke seems much more probable than being ready for one. And considering you have to travel quite a distance to be in a "safe area", if you dont fly fast like Nanoha or Fate, you're screwed.

Quote:
I will go through the list point for point, so be asured I will read all of it. I even made a card below to clarify just where the mage decided to stop running and start tanking.

Sounds logical. But there might be exceptions, such as Yuuno and Arf, who casted 360 degree shields to stop the Anihilation Lightning, and still managed to stop a more powerful the usual attack. Not nuke level, but stil more powerful then the average attack.
Remember I'm talking about a regular Ace, not barrier masters like Yuuno and Arf.

Nanoha, against both Diabolic Emission and Starlight Breaker, used a Round Shield to defend Fate and herself.

Quote:
Or he could make a 360 shield, and put more power in the forward part. that way he could stop the blast, and still protect himself from the side effects. Theoretically, this should be possible.
If the user is indeed very proficient in the use of barriers, that is possible, yes.

Quote:
If you use a round shield, then yes, what you say will happen. But I was thinking more of a 360 shield, and focussing more energy forward.
Same answer as above.

Quote:
Maybe I should use a card to show just how far I was talking about, to make it a bit more easy to understand:

Spoiler for the card:


As you can see, the mage cleared the "Absolute Painless Death" area, made it through the "Horrendously Conflagarated" part, and the greatest part of the "Well Done Skeleton" part. The part where he is now should be survivable, with damage being along the lines of the stronger buildings being torn, but not leveled.

Of course, this is asuming you're an air mage. If you're a ground mage... well... better hope your budies have teleporters, cause I don't think you will even make it out of the "Absolute Painless Death" area.
This is possible, yes. However, again I'd like to say, you have to be very proficient with defensive magic to survive still.

Quote:
So the strugle becomes deciding which attacks are Magical Damage and which are not.
In theory this shouldnt be hard to see. Almost all of Mid-Childa magic is Magical Damage-based. You can, however, add elemental properties to the attacks, such as Fate's attacks.

Quote:
And this is where confusion starts to settle in. We've seen Nanoha's attacks punching through AMF's like they weren't there, and as far aswe know all of nanoha's attacks are magical in nature. How do we decide which ones are physical and which ones are magical?
Yes, Nanoha's attack are pure Magical in nature. She just uses the same principle behind Variable Shoot. Variable Shoot is just a AA rank spell, so maybe Nanoha can just use that as if it was a normal shoot.

As for why it physically hits the drones, my best guess is the barrier part of the Variable Shoot. A barrier is able to stop a physical attack, so that just means it has physical properties.

Quote:
Three words: Arc-en-Ciel.

It's a magical weapon with a destructive radius worse then any nuke in our planets current arsenal. It was said to be able to lay waste to the city. It is a magical weapon of mass destruction. And the TSAB authorized it.

What the TSAB banned were the kind of weapons that anyone could use. To quote Fate: "Even a child could push a button and end the world."
Only an Admiral is able to authorize the use of the Arc-en-Ciel. Its the same thing I'm saying. In real life, nukes are prohibited, but governments still have some. And those who are able to call a launch are also of Admiral-level rank.

Now, I've had this discussion before with Lowe, that's why I know what to say. The Arc-en-Ciel is so powerful that its considered a "spacial and dimensional attack". Such power can rip through anything--its like an eraser; you are disintegrated from existence--, and given its nature (Magic) it can be more devastating than a Nuke (which has thresholds and limitations). That said, the Arc-en-Ciel is still Magical in nature, and thus it is allowed. (unless they reveal that its source is Technology, in which case it would make it some sort of particle beam cannon--a super weapon--, and it deals physical damage)

Quote:
I'm merely calling them tac-nukes because they explode with the awesomeness of one. Really.

Still... the ratio thing is odd, unproven, and riddled with guesses. I'm having trouble painting it as reliable.
I'm not saying this as if I had a reliable source to prove it. This is how I view it, and again I say, a guess.

Quote:
*sweatdrop* You know... when we are discussing Barrier Jacket's I'm having this hunch I feel exactly like you do when you're trying to explain nukes to me... anyhoo, fields cover the entire body. *points to Vita, episode 6*
A Field Defense, yes. That's its purpose.

The only problem is that I dont think BJs give you a constant total-body field defense. The BJ are created with all those types of defenses imbued into them, however I dont think they give you a protection to parts of your body that they dont cover. That just seems too cheesy to me. And as far as I know, there is no proof for this.

Quote:
Two things, 1: how do you know they did not have bruising underneath their jackets as well? I never said the barriers and fields were invincible. 2: There have been cases of the cast being thrown through buildings, and coming out without a scratch. If BJ's did not give full protection, they should have recieved scratches, bruises, anything. Yet, they didn't. This proves that they are protected even where the cloth does not reach.
I just wont argue with this. Because this is, in my opinion, an anime thing.

And I will stop arguing about Barrier Jackets altogether. Again I say, I just dont see them as awesome as you guys do. In the examples I have been giving, like the one above where a mage is hit by a Nuclear explosion, the BJ's protection, even if it covers the entire mage, should not be good enough to save the mage anyway. So this doesnt really matter to me, again I say.


@stormturmoil No arguments from me. All you said is true. Maybe all the planets under the administration of the TSAB are not technological advanced like ours? Maybe its one of the reasons why Earth is still a non-administrated planet.

A good way of approach would be, hey, we can give you instruments to travel through space, and many other benefits that come from the use of magic through technology, if you agree to our terms. And their terms are: just stop the usage/production/etc of conventional weapons to preserve peace.

Does that make sense to me? Not exactly. It is a possibility, though.
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Old 2007-07-21, 21:56   Link #364
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Now obviously , this doesn't affect the kinds of low end weapons that define low end crime...there will always be knives, hammer etc. You can't build a civilization without nails, and a hammer can be used to hit a person on the head just as easily as a nail, but...

the removal of technologised weapons, from guns up to strategic type weapons is not just a technological, but a political process. just as much to the point, it is in fact taking the freedom to defend yourself (or for Nations to prevent aggression) from the common man and placing it in the hands of the privileged few who are lucky enough to be born with magical power. Now, in theory, as long as those few are fair and efficient, and willing to accept their responsibility to protect all the others, it shouldn't be a problem, right...?
In all nations already, the ability to hold anything more powerful than a rifle or thereabouts is limited to "the hands of a privileged few".

Depending on the percentage of mages within the general population, it is possible that the new arrangement actually provides more equality than a technologized system.

For example, in a technological based system, an army can attack a civilian population under the advantages of armored vehicles, suppressive artillery, precision bombing ... etc. While the advantage is minimized in guerilla warfare and urban fighting, the firepower advantage is still there and makes the situation very bloody for the city's civvie defenders. And that's if the civilian defenders have rifles and the like - if they don't their only recourse is surrender.

If we assume that a fair proportion of the citizenship are mages, however, the situation is different. In a magic-only system, the invasion will be infantry on infantry (of course, you can Arc-cen-ciel them, but that's a different story). Sure, the military infantry will be better trained, but that's as far as the advantage goes. The military infantry will be badly outnumbered, and with no other support, be at a disadvantageous Correlation of Force, which leaves them no choice but to retreat.

Quote:
imagine the STAB trying to turn Earth into an administered world, for example...would the governments of the world put away their nukes, step down and hand power over to a bunch of kids that have power merely through accident of birth?

Like hell they would! They'd give 'em hell with a hand grenade, not to mention any and every other form of weapon available to them, up to, and including strategic Thermonuclear weapons if they got pushed hard enough...
Actually, what will happen is this. The Earth's governments will have immense difficulty solving even the problems of target acquisition against single individual targets. Our recce-stike complexes can acquire an armored formation well enough, but not an individual (not that Midchildran tracking is all that grdeat either - StrikerS is an example). Without target acquisition, the nuking phase doesn't even start.

Even if we assume Earth's governments will resort to the stupid tactic of randomly flinging nukes, it will be difficult to destroy a target who could always teleport back to his ship. It is also possible to cast a barrier so humans won't be able to move and destroy some equipment in the meantime. Heck, they don't even have to be human - they can disguise themselves as animals (Yuuno). The options are endless. The point is mobility in a compact, hard-to-acquire man-package, not defense. More likely they'd soon realize the futility of neutralizing the Midchildran's means of fire destruction (mages) and surrender.

If a target's acquired well enough, he's more likely to be threatened by a sneak attack from a sniper's bullet when he's not on alert (say he's sleeping) than a nuke that's brought into the theater by trackable means.

Personally, however, I view this whole peace agreement as a shock residue. Kind of like how WWI caused the League of Nations and WWII caused the United Nations. Warfare using full blown nuclear or better weaponry could only be more devastating, and thus for a moment, the sheer horror of the war caused everyone to decide to compromise for awhile, and by the time they got their senses back, all the weapons are in scrapheaps, so there's no choice but to adhere to the new system.

As an side, personally, I wonder how many Terrans really have hidden magical skills (storywise). The few that are found so far seem to be top-class. From observation, they are found ridiculously close together, even in a small town (Nanoha and Hayate both live in Uminari, a small town). Suppose Uminari is a town of 50000, that's 2 out of 25000. Assuming a normal distribution, we should have about 200,000 potential over-S mages in our land (assuming a 5 billion person population), which is probably more than the sum total that exists elsewhere, with correspondingly greater numbers of AAA and lower mages. Perhaps we are just a goldmine of mages yet to be mined.
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Old 2007-07-22, 09:53   Link #365
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The problem with relying on the enemy to surrender is that in a case like this, it only takes one big player to not do, and you have a terrible mess left to clean up...

which may, as has been suggested, be why Earth hasn't been approached as a potential Administered world.

However, more interesting to me is the power shift behind this. For one thing, it makes a mockery of the Democratic ideal that all people are equal: in the Nanohverse, people most definitely are not all equal. That being the case, is democraocy or some variant of such even a viable possibility given that it's underlying principle is just outright wrong in this case...

Not that that's a criticism in itself. I myself believe that democracy as currently practiced in inherently flawed, since only those who run for the positions can get them, regardless of intent or ability. In other words, we are giving political power only to those who 1: already have some degree of power (in that they can campaign, pay deposits, etc) and 2: want power for the sake of having power.

Obviously that's a simplification, but it is observably true in some cases. In the meantime, people who would genuinely be better suited to having that power do not or cannot get it because they do not (or cannot) run for election.

As a result, elections favour those who want power for having power's own sake, who in my opinion are exactly the kind of people we should be trying to keep from having power at all

Personally, I'd favour replacing elections with a system similar to that used to select juries. After all, that is both representative and democratic and already trusted to deliver fair results.

What I'm getting at is (and we haven't really seen the answer yet, so it's basically a speculative question) given that the STAB is the administrative force on a whole bunch of worlds, how exactly are these worlds governed?

Is there an elected governer or council? do the worlds have the right to representation? or is the STAB a form of Benevolent dictatorship where the STAB keeps the peace, by limiting the rights of the populace?
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Old 2007-07-22, 10:14   Link #366
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Is there an elected governer or council? do the worlds have the right to representation? or is the STAB a form of Benevolent dictatorship where the STAB keeps the peace, by limiting the rights of the populace?
The ongoing Singapore Dystopia comes to mind as a possible functional pseudo-democratic scenario.
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Old 2007-07-29, 18:15   Link #367
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I'm beginning to feel the TSAB is something like the UN, as opposed to just 'Midchilda's Navy.' From the way Regius talks I get the sense that the Midchildan political establishment sees the TSAB as an external weight hanging over it even though their civilization gave birth to it.

More of a political idea than technological, but it was getting some attention at the top of the page.
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Old 2007-08-04, 09:42   Link #368
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Moving here from the Image thread.

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Maybe we can do that in now-deserted Tech thread?
It's not magic, but it surely belongs to tech talking.
So first to clarify things

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Old 2007-08-04, 09:45   Link #369
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Moving here from the Image thread.



So first to clarify things

Spoiler for Nature of the weapon from spoilers:

Do we have to talk through tags?

Spoiler:
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Old 2007-08-04, 09:48   Link #370
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Oh okay, tags.
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Old 2007-08-04, 09:53   Link #371
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Throne eh?

Reminds me of a certain planet eating individual....
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Old 2007-08-04, 10:03   Link #372
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Oh okay, tags.
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Old 2007-08-04, 10:27   Link #373
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Old 2007-08-04, 10:37   Link #374
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Old 2007-08-04, 10:54   Link #375
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You have to remember, for them, conventional/physical weapons means it doesn't use magic. It could still be well-advanced compared to what we or they can manage. It's not hard to imagine something that advanced would a require a sophisticated control system, with specific characteristics.
And I already stated my opinion that the "too easy to use to cause mass destruction" thing is propaganda.
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Old 2007-08-04, 11:05   Link #376
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Lol at lulaby weapon made everyone that hear em fall asleep ...remind me of certain pokemon

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Old 2007-08-04, 11:05   Link #377
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And I already stated my opinion that the "too easy to use to cause mass destruction" thing is propaganda.
That's not completely true though, what could be easy then might not be so now.

It's all about resources. Several years ago maybe people like Vivio could be easily aquired, but 75 years down the road, the situation might not be the same.
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Old 2007-08-04, 11:10   Link #378
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You have to remember, for them, conventional/physical weapons means it doesn't use magic. It could still be well-advanced compared to what we or they can manage. It's not hard to imagine something that advanced would a require a sophisticated control system, with specific characteristics.
And I already stated my opinion that the "too easy to use to cause mass destruction" thing is propaganda.
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Old 2007-08-04, 11:16   Link #379
Chaos2Frozen
The Evil Within
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Drangelic, or by a different name...
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
Spoiler:
"convenience, lack of unnecessary elements, usually mass production, fail-safety measures etc."

Convenience... Last time I've check, the best and most advanced computers seems out of reach to the common man.

Unnecessary elements... You haven't even seen it work yet.

Mass production... You want quality, it's going to cost you. That's why it's call 'Hi-tech'.

fail-safety measures... You haven't even seen it work yet.

Come on, seriously... THat's why they're called hi tech...
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Old 2007-08-04, 11:20   Link #380
An Hero in Disguise
Human
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Currently - Germany
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by raidou View Post
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Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
That's not completely true though, what could be easy then might not be so now.

It's all about resources. Several years ago maybe people like Vivio could be easily aquired, but 75 years down the road, the situation might not be the same.
75 years is 3 generations at most, unless the whole civilization disappeared like Al Hazard what could've happened? Anyway if it's possible to make weapons only operable by very certain people I see NO problem with safety here, no problem at all. It'd be exactly the same as Arc-en-Ciels's magical lock now, just on biological level instead.
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