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Old 2008-01-18, 12:20   Link #521
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Because Nanoha was told to imagine a weapon?

I don't see why, as long as you keep your oponent within your line of sight, you can target them and manouver at the same time. Your shots respond to your mental commands, which is hardly comparable to our MCLOS. You simply have to think where you want the round to go and it goes there, so in a dogfight, I would rather prefer these rounds, as they constantly chase my oponent, forcing him to either keep dodging or start blocking which keeps him from attacking. You can manouver and keep him pinned without losing accuracy, with a rifle, you have to stop moving in order to profit from your sights.

Like I said, guided shots work just as fine and you can actually correct them when you shoot, giving you a higher chance to hit, so no the gun doesn't get points in accuracy.
See Nanoha in Ep5. She's about the best there is in that art, but she's most CERTAINLY not "targetting and maneuvering" at the same time. It is highly unlikely the random mage will be even HALF as good.

MCLOS means you are flying the rounds, which seems to be the mode of employment. That you are using your mind to fly them does not make it cease to be MCLOS.

Finally, guided bombs are used in close range, much closer than 100m. Which suggests they have short effective ranges (homing limitation, limitation of command link range?) So I won't be holding out for them in long-range shoots (even 100m).

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Ah, here we start roaming in my area of expertise. No, a bayonet to a rifle does not a good melee weapon make. Sure, its a decent idea for unarmed oponents or other people with bayonet rifles, maybe even short weapons like daggers, but a rifle is not a melee weapon. The very things that make it oh-so-great at range (sights and stocks) make it a very clumsy and unwieldy weapon in melee. Someone with a staff has a much better chance of winning.
Shouldn't you be able to use the stock as a club? And even if I agree with that, someone with a staff is still at a substantial disadvantage versus one with say a pike or a sword. I still say you might as well play to strengths.

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While we have been shown that weapons can recover from heavy damage, this skill has never been used while in combat, despite the many times it could have been. This highly suggests some time and effort is involved in recovering, which means there would be no 'quick' recovery.
IIRC Fate made Bardiche recover in seconds once she got to it.

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I'm sorry, but I concider hitting someone that has become a little dot in the distance, gun or no, a long range shot with deadly accuracy.
It is NOT a little dot, she was a blob. The range is such that Nanoha was 5 pixels wide - the range was ~100m. See the stadia pictures again. Now, if Nanoha was a 1 pixel dot, the range would be in the 500m area. In that case, I will probably buy that some kind of stabilization took place, since even with a stock and all that would have been a fair shot and from the hip a stabilizer will be necessary - unless I start moving Nanoha from talented to out of reality, which is not exactly a great solution IMO. Unfortunately, she is 5 pixels wide.

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Did I do that? I merely said that recoil did not seem to be an issue, which is a fact.
What about the movement of your own arms and so on.

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Yes, you could, and you'd still have a pretty crappy melee weapon. The lack of blade is not an issue, the fact that you have absolutely no way to wield it even remotely comfortable much less effectively is. Why do you think Cross Mirage's grip slides back?
If you care so much about ergonomics in a melee, why do you care so little about it at range?

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Yee, I dunno, maybe because this was a gun/staff comparison? Anyway, I can compare every single device we've seen so far, but I can already tell you Bardiche comes out on top, clearly. It functions similar to a staff and is an axe ready to be used in melee without any mode-shifting.
There you go. Even by the results of your analysis, the staff is not an optimum weapon. And if you place more emphasis on range and stop trying to paper over the ergonomics needed for long-range work, you'll revert to the rifle.

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Playing back entirely original and on-the-spot improvised manouvres? You can't possibly be serious!

So what you are saying is that it is the AI that does the work? Because, you know, that's what I've been saying all along.
Consider it this way. Had what happened been orchestrated by a human pushing preset buttons on a console, will you conclude from that performance that the human can help him aim?

Further, the movements that were involved were broad. It is very ill-suited for fine adjustment of aim.

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So things are solid because of forcefields, but forcefields aren't neccisarely solid, and since devices are solid... Aaagh! This is completely confusing me.
I'll make it very simple for you then. Pseudomatter is a better solution than real matter, because real matter will have involved the handling of multiple megatons of energy with each "transaction", which even the aces show little sign of wielding.

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She disapeared in sparkles, there was no wormhole, she was converted to energy, vitals could still be read because her existence was still there inside the Yami no Sho.
If she was "converted to energy", her existence will not be "inside the Yami no Sho". She will cease to exist. There won't be any "vitals" to take. There won't be sparkles. There will be an enormous nuclear level blast.

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A fair share of ranged spells she often uses, mind you. She is far more ranged oriented then Vita, for example.
But it is still a secondary function.

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I was talking about Teana, actually.
In that capture, Teana was being airlifted by Nanoha.

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When? Where? Last I recall it took a lot more, being labeled as an 'A rank skill'
One has to balance it with how easily Nanoha got it. It is probably a power issue more than anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
The point Keroko is trying to make, I believe, is that it is possible to aim from the hip, as it were, with the Device, and the device handles the targeting.
Targeting is obviously manual. See Ep5, A's

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Hell, in a combat aircraft, all the pilot does is designate the targets. It's the computers that give the guidance data...
That's a combat aircraft. RH asks Nanoha to control the bombs.

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I admit that Sparrow made the launching aircraft a sitting duck. On the other hand, to follow the Hellfire example (since it IS LOAL-capable), once the correction signals are sent it's off an away.
Unfortunately, Nanoha's bombs seem to be more the guide to impact type.

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Define. Full names. I only used LOAL and SARH after spelling them out in full.
Manual Command Line to Sight: Basically, Nanoha operates a mental joystick to command her Shooters to hit the target. Based on Ep5, this seems to be the most likely primary mode.
Semi-Automated Command Line to Sight: Nanoha glares at target (if eyes closed, envisions target), Shooters hit based on commands from RH until end of flight. If this mode is common, Vita will not say that it is impossible for her to guide all the Shooters, and RH will not credit her master - RH will be flying the bombs. Thus it is reasonable to assume that the majority of guided shots are not SACLOS.
Automatic Command Line to Sight / Command Guidance: Nanoha designates target and fires. She's free to look away. RH flies all the Shooters. (If RH can do this, she won't be asking Nanoha for "Control, please") It also has the objection listed for SACLOS.

For extra fun:
Semi-Active Homing: Either Nanoha glares at target, or tells RH to illuminate. No guidance signals are sent. Bombs flock like moths to a fire. This AFAIK has never happened.
Active / Passive Homing: We won't be able to differentiate these two. Fire and fully independent. Bloody Dagger is supposed to be like this, but is considered vulnerable to decoys.

According to the novel, Divine Shooter is supposed to be MCLOS or Homing, with MCLOS being the favored mode of employment.
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Old 2008-01-18, 12:26   Link #522
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
If that is true at the end of A's ep2 the city would've had at least a building with about a floor of windows blown out and another one that had Fate go down about ten stories down the center. There were never any relief clerks sent in for that as the barrier was shattered by Nanoha shoving Starlight Breaker through it.
I suspect they cleaned up afterwards. Anyway, you have to explain Ep11.

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I'm not sure. Every world (The desert and jungle one namely) seemed to have what look like multiple Earths in their orbit. And they said to go to 'planets nearby this one' and I'm sure the desert world isn't Venus and there isn't any jungle worlds in our solar system. And even if the desert world was Venus it isn't close enough to see what looks like Earth so close by unless it is a planet existing nearly ours but we can't see it as it exists on a different dimension. (Of course then how we can see our dimensional Earth is a mystery unless the planet can naturally see it somehow)
The simplest explanation is that they aren't Earth at all. They are random moons around very different worlds. The chances of them being in exactly the same coordinates is infinitesmial.

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Because they would've witnessed Nanoha's first battle with Fate when she went to go get the Jewel Seed from Suzuka's cat as Arisa and Suzuka were with Yuuno's barrier. They weren't in the barrier and I don't think you can 'suddenly' have magical talent unless you can somehow reason that their being in close proximity to Nanoha over the span of MSLN to A's somehow allows them to become magical.
Why does the "threshold" for all barriers have to be the same? Can't Yunno's require a little more magical capacity to continue to exist, especially since it was so small compare to Reinforce's.

By the way, Suzuka and Arisa were quite far out from the center, and that might have helped them ever so slightly as well.
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Old 2008-01-18, 12:27   Link #523
krisslanza
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This is just some random food for thought but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVD Booklet
アルカンシェル - Arc-en-Ciel
(A’s DVD6)
A magic cannon equipped to the Administration Bureau’s larger warships.
Boasting the highest destructive power within the Administration Bureau’s naval armory, use of the Arc-en-Ciel is only allowed in certain conditions or against certain targets, and only when specific requirements are fulfilled. The projectile has nearly no destructive power itself; instead, a short time after impact, a spatial distortion and a subsequent annihilating reaction is generated. As the area of effect is even greater than the maximum firing range, withdrawing to a safe location after firing by Transferring is an absolute must.
And a key snippet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BabelFish Translation of Arc-en-Ciel on NanohaWiki
The effective range focusing on the motion position reaches to over hundred ten kilometers
Which is saying the Arc's maximum range is 621 miles but that its area of effect is greather then 621 miles.

Just thought I'd like to note this and see what it'll make you all think

EDIT:
Quote:
I suspect they cleaned up afterwards. Anyway, you have to explain Ep11.
Unless they somehow cleaned up instantaneously after the barrier collapsed people in those buildings Nanoha and Fate went into would've suddenly been standing thin air and/or debris. And I'm not sure about the 'fires', unless the fires within the barrier began to leak into the 'real' world.

I also began to note that I think this is the easiest reason:
The barriers existed as a lazy way of not having to draw people running around in horror and people dieing in masses from magical battles. Look at MSLN 3 I think where the Jewel Seed is taken by the boy. There is no barrier present but yet during the ENTIRE thing you don't see a single human being who is freaking out and all the trees somehow tore into buildings that no one lived in? Same goes with MSLN 1, the damage caused by Nanoha's battle carried over into the real world.

Really. SevenArcs is just lazy.
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Old 2008-01-18, 12:40   Link #524
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
Which is saying the Arc's maximum range is 621 miles but that its area of effect is greather then 621 miles.
It is only 100+ kilometers (Babelfish missed the word "number", in this case meaning "one hundred and a few tens of kilometers"). How did it become 621 miles? Anyway, it is just like the TSAB to have such weapons.

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Unless they somehow cleaned up instantaneously after the barrier collapsed people in those buildings Nanoha and Fate went into would've suddenly been standing thin air and/or debris. And I'm not sure about the 'fires', unless the fires within the barrier began to leak into the 'real' world.
It was late in the night. It is actually possible that no one was there at the time except maybe a security guard or two who is not likely to be in exactly the wrong spot.

The fact that they were so desperate to quickly put out the fires suggest that what's burning is the real world.

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I also began to note that I think this is the easiest reason:
The barriers existed as a lazy way of not having to draw people running around in horror and people dieing in masses from magical battles. Look at MSLN 3 I think where the Jewel Seed is taken by the boy. There is no barrier present but yet during the ENTIRE thing you don't see a single human being who is freaking out and all the trees somehow tore into buildings that no one lived in? Same goes with MSLN 1, the damage caused by Nanoha's battle carried over into the real world.

Really. SevenArcs is just lazy.
It didn't "carry over into the real world". It was in the real world in the first place.

As for Ep3, I don't think we saw much details of what was going on in the streets, so focused were we on Nanoha.

We know that's the real reason, but that does not a SoD explanation make.
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Old 2008-01-18, 12:57   Link #525
krisslanza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It is only 100+ kilometers (Babelfish missed the word "number", in this case meaning "one hundred and a few tens of kilometers"). How did it become 621 miles? Anyway, it is just like the TSAB to have such weapons.
Well it'd only come out to be a 1000KM range. Which is 621 'statue' miles according to a calculator.

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It was late in the night. It is actually possible that no one was there at the time except maybe a security guard or two who is not likely to be in exactly the wrong spot.

The fact that they were so desperate to quickly put out the fires suggest that what's burning is the real world.
I suppose... But this is Japan. I'd suspect SOMEONE would've noticed two damaged buildings.

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It didn't "carry over into the real world". It was in the real world in the first place.

As for Ep3, I don't think we saw much details of what was going on in the streets, so focused were we on Nanoha.

We know that's the real reason, but that does not a SoD explanation make.
In MSLN 1 and 2? Yuuno put up a barrier. If I recall he explains it somewhat there... Or maybe later on. I forget.

You and your... Whatever SoD is.
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Old 2008-01-18, 12:58   Link #526
Tk3997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The key IMO is the "core" that Fate refers to in Ep2. That's core is somewhere in the standby state. The program for the creation of the device is placed there. The rest can all be pseudomatter or in subspace or still in energy form for the matter. As long as the core is fine and mage has magic energy reserves, you just concentrate and the device restores (unless, in the subspace bag theory the bag runs out of usable matter). Even if you don't, the auto-repair will slowly diagnose which parts were bent and smooth out the forcefields (call up matter, convert...) using the battery power (slow movements use less energy). But damage the core even slightly, and the program is incomplete, and that's when it stops self recovery.
In my theory it would have a limited supply of mass available to it as frankly that seems to fit the patterns we see better which that once heavy damage is taken, even if dosen't seem to effect the core much, the devices requires specialized repairs. I might use Sub-space but I won't abuse it and say that the pocket made by a device can hold 50 tons of matter, it probably only just holds the device and many a small amount of emergency mass enough to reform it or repair heavy damage once, maybe twice for slightly less extensive damage.

I prefer this from a literary preceptive as well since it makes device damage relevant in allot of these other theories you could nearly blow the thing apart aside from the tiny core and just squint a bit and reform it. That to me is just weak if someone goes all out or isn't careful and gets their weapon trashed in a fight it should matter.

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On the other hand, we seem to have a variety of constructs which are built in this way, such as the Wolkenritter.
The Wolkies are another good counter argument again due to the fact the also blatantly have mass.

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Again. Matter = forcefield. Matter = mass. Thus forcefields can have mass.
No not even close in fact this is completely false. Matter is mostly empty space yes and it’s held together by a kind of force field yes, BUT despite their tiny size relative to those interlocking fields those tiny atoms are still what gives an object it’s mass and if you remove the atoms even if you somehow maintain those fields it would have effectively zero mass. Devices have mass acutally Mach Caliber’s upgraded is said to be “heavier” weight is a function of mass thus meaning it has mass, which the upgrade has increased.

I acutally feel quite stupid for not thinking of this rather simple but IMO rather devastating argument before. As far as I’m concerned this is pretty much a slam dunk that destroys the argument devices are made of anything beside solid matter of some sort and not any kind of pesudeomatter force field.

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While the nature of magical "particles" is unknown, it is likely that the particle(s) making up magic will have some mass. Otherwise, it'll be hard to explain how they can be trapped into various stationary positions. Remember that the only velocity a particle with no mass can have is lightspeed.
I agree Magic Particles likely have mass for all the reasons you said, but really that then just makes them a type (or possibly state) of matter and thus your scheme is still wrong even if the devices are built out of them. (Which I’m not at all convinced they are.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
What? You are not counting the electromagnetic forcefields b/w the protons and the electrons? Those don't go away just because something starts to melt or even boil - extreme conditions are required to make them break down.

Even as a liquid in the macro sense, there's the forcefield of surface tension, and below the surface, there are still inter-attractions even though the molecules are not rigidly held togehter.

Even as a gas, not all forcefields break down. For example, the bond between carbon and oxygen in CO2.
Because this isn't about any of that and none of it matters to the argument I made.

An objects apparent solidity we agree that can be replicated with an advanced force field, but mass is something else all together force fields don’t have mass. An object can be “Solid” thanks to a force-feed, but it would still weigh nothing aside from the emitter which in this case we know to be the size of a small piece of jewelry and yet when deployed devices clearly weigh significantly more, then we hear stuff about “light weight” barrier jackets etc. All of this requires the object have mass to make sense, not just solidity and again force fields do not have mass unless they have atomic material stuck in them, in which case we call that “matter”.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagerou View Post
Pseudomatter:
...well okay I didn't think about them being one and the same. But I don't think Devices are ever stated as having a limited amount of matter at their disposal. Really, IMO, it would depend on how much energy a mage can pump into the Device to force it to summon parts. A Device can regenerate itself so long as the mage wielding as power to provide it.

It's the same concept behind a Barrier Jacket/Knight Armor. A mage can use it to protect him/herself so long as there's energy to burn.
Like I said to me this seems like a cop out:
"I've managed to totally ruin my weapon in battle but no matter I'll just squint a bit and it'll be good as new!" *dose so* "Now have at thee!"

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Barrier Spell:
I think we can all agree that was only the most useless spell to exist. Like TK said, it's only purpose was so there wouldn't be any civilians running around.

Actually, it might be even simpler: They use the Barrier spell because 7arcs didn't want to animate people flipping out (if you'll notice in StrikerS, any surprise by the Gadget Drones has a conspicuous lack of people other than the main characters).

And I disagree with the reasoning for using Barrier spells on Mid. To paraphrase TK on the OC thread about 300 pages ago: There simply aren't that many people who can do magic.

Okay nevermind I found the post:

But then, since we hardly see any civilians, this is a hard thing to judge.
Acutally that’s a tad out of context for one I meant use it to a level to be viable mages this is a different issue if we went with the above scheme then you’d only need maybe a trace of power to penetrate the barrier. Also even if it was only say 10% that where strong enough not to be punted if you threw a barrier over even 5 square miles of say Manhattan you’d end up with around 35,000 people trapped inside…

It was as mentioned clearly a plot device that conveniently side stepped a number of issues:
-Didn’t need to worry about civilians
-Allows the whole secret magical war thing to work
-Dose save a bit of time having to animate bystanders and the fleeing masses and every little bit of saved time can be used for something more important.

We still need to try and explain it though more so if you like you and me you intend to write fiction set in the verse.

That said newer evidence seems to have been brought in into this although as I recall the TSAB grunts used a barrier of their own so clearly the Belkan version isn't the only game in town.

Last edited by Tk3997; 2008-01-18 at 13:12.
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Old 2008-01-18, 18:40   Link #527
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
See Nanoha in Ep5. She's about the best there is in that art, but she's most CERTAINLY not "targetting and maneuvering" at the same time. It is highly unlikely the random mage will be even HALF as good.

MCLOS means you are flying the rounds, which seems to be the mode of employment. That you are using your mind to fly them does not make it cease to be MCLOS.

Finally, guided bombs are used in close range, much closer than 100m. Which suggests they have short effective ranges (homing limitation, limitation of command link range?) So I won't be holding out for them in long-range shoots (even 100m).
Try watching StrikerS, there are several ocasions with several characters flying and firing self-controlled spells.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Shouldn't you be able to use the stock as a club? And even if I agree with that, someone with a staff is still at a substantial disadvantage versus one with say a pike or a sword. I still say you might as well play to strengths.
Actually, a staff makes a pretty dangerous weapon if wielded propperly. Staff weapons are in fact still a common feature in many martial arts to this day, and while they indeed lack a sharp edge to cut things, blunt damage works just as well. Graff Eisen should have taught you that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
IIRC Fate made Bardiche recover in seconds once she got to it.
And it was never done again, even when devices were damaged in the midst of combat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It is NOT a little dot, she was a blob. The range is such that Nanoha was 5 pixels wide - the range was ~100m. See the stadia pictures again. Now, if Nanoha was a 1 pixel dot, the range would be in the 500m area. In that case, I will probably buy that some kind of stabilization took place, since even with a stock and all that would have been a fair shot and from the hip a stabilizer will be necessary - unless I start moving Nanoha from talented to out of reality, which is not exactly a great solution IMO. Unfortunately, she is 5 pixels wide.
Double checked the episode, around the 19:40 mark Nanoha clearly is a dot in the distance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
What about the movement of your own arms and so on.
Did I do that in the part where you asked me not to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
If you care so much about ergonomics in a melee, why do you care so little about it at range?
I've already pointed out the irony if this, if you'd care to read it. Perhaps its the reverse of your drive to defend the ergonomics in ranged combat. Unlike guns and rifles, I actually know a thing or two about melee weapons, from personel experience even.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
There you go. Even by the results of your analysis, the staff is not an optimum weapon. And if you place more emphasis on range and stop trying to paper over the ergonomics needed for long-range work, you'll revert to the rifle.
I never said it was 'the optimum' weapon, stop putting words where they don't exist. I said it was more versatile then a rifle, which it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Consider it this way. Had what happened been orchestrated by a human pushing preset buttons on a console, will you conclude from that performance that the human can help him aim?
Now here comes the fun part, they weren't pre-set buttons. Perhaps the spells, yes, but the way they were applied wasn't. It's like driving a car, you can step on the gaspedal as much as you like, but unless you steer you'll end up in a bloody mess. Stepping on the gaspedal in this case is Mach Calibur casting the spells, whereas steering is it actually using the spells to beat of Ginga.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Further, the movements that were involved were broad. It is very ill-suited for fine adjustment of aim.
There's also a wide amount of difference between beating someone of with an unconsious wielder and putting minor adjustments to a consious ones aim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
If she was "converted to energy", her existence will not be "inside the Yami no Sho". She will cease to exist. There won't be any "vitals" to take. There won't be sparkles. There will be an enormous nuclear level blast.
You're still asuming this conversion will go by method A, why can't it go along B?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
But it is still a secondary function.
Concidering the frequency of their use, 'secondary' would be pushing the line of the term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
In that capture, Teana was being airlifted by Nanoha.
before that. You know? The part where she had to use Caro boosted illusions to even escape?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
One has to balance it with how easily Nanoha got it. It is probably a power issue more than anything else.
So you're theorycrafting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Targeting is obviously manual. See Ep5, A's
To return your own argument 'that is only one example'

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Manual Command Line to Sight: Basically, Nanoha operates a mental joystick to command her Shooters to hit the target. Based on Ep5, this seems to be the most likely primary mode.
While I agree that Axel Shooter is similar to an MCLOS, you have to remember that these are mental commands, thus not subject to the physical reflexes or even counterfriction wielding a joystick would give you. Making the shot reacts goes as fast as thinking 'go down' and it goes down.
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Old 2008-01-18, 19:15   Link #528
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Try watching StrikerS, there are several ocasions with several characters flying and firing self-controlled spells.
Still means it is a major drain on your concentration. Do you see them doing sharp maneuvers or are they firing Sparrow missiles? I'm sure in Ep7, Vita was not doing a whole lot of moving after she fires her Swallow Fliers, for example.

And what happened to the range and speed objections. The distance you most need to aim are distances beyond the known ranges of the guided bombs.

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And it was never done again, even when devices were damaged in the midst of combat.
Perhaps the core is more vulnerable than you think. The reason I don't buy mass, mana or energy theories is because more than half the time, the mass lost is only a tiny percentage. If you believe the core was undamaged, it is more a matter of smoothing over what's there than bringing up new stuff.

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Double checked the episode, around the 19:40 mark Nanoha clearly is a dot in the distance.
In my 19:40, Nanoha is covering her ears from Eisengheul. A few seconds after that, Vita was about a 5px blob. When Vita stopped and turned back to look, Nanoha was a 5px blob as we already measured.

From now on, don't tell me it is a dot so I get excited unless it is at most 2px across. And don't call 100m long range. We need to standardize terminology.

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Did I do that in the part where you asked me not to?
Since you are handwaving away all ergonomic problems with LR shots, I figure you are.

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I've already pointed out the irony if this, if you'd care to read it. Perhaps its the reverse of your drive to defend the ergonomics in ranged combat. Unlike guns and rifles, I actually know a thing or two about melee weapons, from personel experience even.
I'm deferring to it. You'll notice I am conceding staff is a superior weapon in melee.

Further, even if I AGREE that the staff should be the default form, one should think when they are going for the LR mode, it can have a STOCK!

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I never said it was 'the optimum' weapon, stop putting words where they don't exist. I said it was more versatile then a rifle, which it is.
I originally asked you to show it is the optimal compromise IIRC. If you weren't going to do that at least you could have told me from the start.

You see, the staff is the standard weapon for Midchildrans. Thus, for it to be correct, it has to not only be superior to the rifle, but also superior to the maze of other choices. By placing a subconscious emphasis on melee and adding a bunch of handwaving magitech like arm-jerking stabilization, you might neutralize a rifle's advantages, but all that does is scream for a better melee weapon.

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Now here comes the fun part, they weren't pre-set buttons. Perhaps the spells, yes, but the way they were applied wasn't. It's like driving a car, you can step on the gaspedal as much as you like, but unless you steer you'll end up in a bloody mess. Stepping on the gaspedal in this case is Mach Calibur casting the spells, whereas steering is it actually using the spells to beat of Ginga.
OK, add a coarse steering knob to the console. Does that equate aiming assistance?

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There's also a wide amount of difference between beating someone of with an unconsious wielder and putting minor adjustments to a consious ones aim.
PRECISELY. So why do you insist that one equates the other (or even seriously hints at the possibility of the other)? The best we've seen a device do is play back spells to move the user. Even in the most optimistic interpretation one can see the movements are coarse and rough.

Remember how you described the arm-jerk stabilization to be "nudges"? Do THOSE look like "nudges" to you? DO they look like they can evolve to "nudges"?

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You're still asuming this conversion will go by method A, why can't it go along B?
We are going by thermodynamics, so from a scientific POV, there is no "method". When you revert ~30kg of mass to energy, the energy release is in the gigaton range. And being energy, Fate won't have vitals or will to have a dream.

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Concidering the frequency of their use, 'secondary' would be pushing the line of the term.
Concession accepted. GIVEN that thanks to a dangerous neglect of long range ergonomics, long range shots are not possible (even a 100m shot is considered some kind of miracle), and a emphasis on melee, concentrating on the primary role is probably correct.

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before that. You know? The part where she had to use Caro boosted illusions to even escape?
That's the tactical option they chose, which is reasonable.

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So you're theorycrafting?
Just taking a reasoned interpretation.

Datapoint A: Test subject = Powerful mage with no knowledge of magic. FLying = Easy
Datapoint B: Test subject = Wimpy mages with (presumably) knowledge of magic. Flying = Hard.

The most reasonable interpretation suggests that the primary component of the difficulty is power.

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To return your own argument 'that is only one example'
Counterexample?

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While I agree that Axel Shooter is similar to an MCLOS, you have to remember that these are mental commands, thus not subject to the physical reflexes or even counterfriction wielding a joystick would give you. Making the shot reacts goes as fast as thinking 'go down' and it goes down.
If she was literally jerking on a joystick, it'll be impossible to control twelve bombs. Neverthless, the control is manual and thus is a huge drain on concentration, forcing one to either fly straight (even stand still with eyes closed) or switch to auto-homing with its weaknesses. And again, the guided bombs are used at close range.

Starting from the T-64B, Soviet tanks have a guided missile they can use for targets out of effective range of their guns. Fighters have guided missiles out of range of the unguided cannona nd rockets. In the Nanoverse, Nanoha has a straight running shot that can be used out of range of the guided shots.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-01-19 at 06:51. Reason: Finish reply.
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Old 2008-01-18, 20:04   Link #529
Wild Goose
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Just a quick comment on rifles in melee.

The US Army isn't keen on the idea. The M16 and M4 tend to break when you beat someone on the head with them

Special Forces, if forced to engage in melee, will drop their rifles and use their knives.

SEALs DO use their rifles in melee, as part of Close Quaters Defence training, but their use of rifles as clubs is primarily intended for when someone's trying to grab the rifle; since he's trying to grab it, rather than let go and let him shoot you, you whack him with it, and try and make sure it's the Surefire taclamp on the side that hits him.

However, everytime Special Forces, Delta, Marines and SEALs are forced to go melee, they whip out combat knives. They don't bother using their rifles as spears. When Delta Operator Paul Howe was preparing for his last stand (which didn't happen), his plan of engagement was M4, shotgun, pistol, then knife. He had no intentions of attaching his knife to his M4 and turning it into a spear.

Now, that says something. None of the units I mentioned above believe in knife+rifle combo weapons. Their idea is that if you fight melee, you use a knife.

"Different horses for different courses." - US Navy aquisition policy.

Okay, another point that I just realised. The main contention is that a rifle device is more accurate for Nanoha.

What is the title? Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha.

Next, Nanoha is essentially Magical Girls doing Shounen Mecha Action. Thus, Divine Shooter/Accel Shooter can easily be seen as analoguos to the fin funnels of UC Gundam and the DRAGOON system of CE. Both systems are remote beam emitters controlled mentally by the pilot. Both have the emitters deploying from their hardpoints on the mobile suit first, then attacking the target with under the pilot's command.

Rau Le Creuset doesn't need a fucking rifle device to ruin someone's day with DRAGOON system.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-01-18 at 21:03.
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Old 2008-01-18, 21:58   Link #530
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
In my theory it would have a limited supply of mass available to it as frankly that seems to fit the patterns we see better which that once heavy damage is taken, even if dosen't seem to effect the core much, the devices requires specialized repairs. I might use Sub-space but I won't abuse it and say that the pocket made by a device can hold 50 tons of matter, it probably only just holds the device and many a small amount of emergency mass enough to reform it or repair heavy damage once, maybe twice for slightly less extensive damage.

I prefer this from a literary preceptive as well since it makes device damage relevant in allot of these other theories you could nearly blow the thing apart aside from the tiny core and just squint a bit and reform it. That to me is just weak if someone goes all out or isn't careful and gets their weapon trashed in a fight it should matter.
Frankly, I don't see that as any advantage unique to the "bag" theory. All other theories can have limits set as to how much can be restored.

Further, I don't think it explains the observations very well. For example, when Signum sliced Bardiche in two, Bardiche lost the mass of its shaft and that damage was easily repaired. Yet if the mass reserve is sorely limited, why doesn't Fate at least make an effort to recover the precious mass that's the shaft? It can't have fallen that far away.

Then Fate gets Bardiche damaged again. Bardiche is badly deformed, but actually very little mass was lost - it was just crunched. In your theory, it'll actually be a easier fix. That the small amount of mass lost coincidentally was the last draw is pushing it, and Fate doesn't even try to partially repair it using what mass was there - even if you can't make it good as new, surely it can be rearranged into something better than that poor shape.

Finally, they get it back to the base. If the problem is one of lack of matter, the repair should be a simple one. Grab the nearest bag of "Device Filler X" and toss it into subspace. Repair ... finished.

To put it simply - mass lost seems to have a low correlation to repairability.

Thus, it is more reasonable to say the core was involved. You say "does not seem to affect the core much). How much of a delicate thing like a CPU do you have to break before it loses function?

Oh yeah, think of Vita and Signum's devices. If they are really grabbing from a subspace matter bag, they'll have to be relatively big to contain all the matter for the Snake and Giant forms. Why do they hold so much and everyone else holds so little by comparison?

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The Wolkies are another good counter argument again due to the fact the also blatantly have mass.
Yet they are plainly mana creations, as are BJs, so whatever theory we make has to wrap around that.

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No not even close in fact this is completely false. Matter is mostly empty space yes and it’s held together by a kind of force field yes, BUT despite their tiny size relative to those interlocking fields those tiny atoms are still what gives an object it’s mass and if you remove the atoms even if you somehow maintain those fields it would have effectively zero mass. Devices have mass acutally Mach Caliber’s upgraded is said to be “heavier” weight is a function of mass thus meaning it has mass, which the upgrade has increased.
Well, you caught me oversimplifying a bit. Remember that at the beginning I said it is "basically a forcefield" because it is "mostly empty" space. Later I got lazier when describing it. But I was always imagining a matter-like matrix made of mana particles and forcefields (where do you think all the matter analogies came from). It is the only way to get even a "plate" shield, let alone something like a BJ. Maybe I should draw a picture, put it up on my new webpage, and link to it every time...

[quote]I agree Magic Particles likely have mass for all the reasons you said, but really that then just makes them a type (or possibly state) of matter and thus your scheme is still wrong even if the devices are built out of them. (Which I’m not at all convinced they are.)

If you want to say mana is a type of matter because mass=matter, That's fine. The exact nature of matter is a disputed subject anyway (I seem to have used the "fermion"=matter one by accident). In any case, it is a correction of terminology, not a fatal flaw in the plan.
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Old 2008-01-19, 03:12   Link #531
Jimmy C
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I just realised this morning that, in all this talk of mass, mana and forcefields, we overlooked something: Summoning. What are Alchemic Chain, Voltaire, Haktenou, Garyuu, Jirai-oh, the bugs made of? Where do they come from? Where do they go when dismissed?
Also, remember Friederich, who can go from mini-dragon to one large enough to ride. Where does the extra mass come from and where does it go?
If you want to call them mana creations like the Knights, do consider this: Neither Caro nor Lutecia have a device as advanced as the Book of Darkness. Furthermore, Caro had Fried long before she had a device. And yes, it could go full-form at the time, she just couldn't control well-enough back then.
Sommoning shows that an aspect of this universe completely defies the laws of physics. And since that's the case for one area, who's to say you can't leverage that in other areas?
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Old 2008-01-19, 03:41   Link #532
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The entire idea of "summoning" or "calling on someone's (especially a sentient's power" is frankly moronic beyond its physical consequences. I can buy Fried helping Caro since they've known each other for a long time, but why Voltaire will help Caro is frankly beyond me. Frankly, I don't even want to think about what happens if ten people call on Voltaire at once

However, from purely physical point of view, it is not much more troublesome than transporting. In fact, Caro implies that the two are highly related skills anyway. Summoning is most likely just a form of enforced teleportation. It probably goes something like this:
1) You chat up your summoned creature and make a contract with him.
2) When you need him, you use the spell to activate the link, find out where he is, and grab him by teleport.

So that leaves what is Fried. I think the little Fried we see is kind of a natural device, a little like Reinforce II really but made by Friedrich (remember Rein was supposedly made with a small piece of Hayate's Linker Core). Friedrich's real body is stuffed in the world of Voltaire and Co (speculation here but methinks the summoned creatures' original world is the one where Caro, Erio and Lutecia lived in at the end of StrikerS). When it is needed, Caro uses the little Friedrich as a "device" to call up the Friedrich body. That's the best I can think of out of a bad situation.

(Frankly, I don't remember how specific they were with how Caro met Friedrich or anything else that might provide a hint or limit, so I can't say I'm sure this won't bump into anything, but ...)
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Old 2008-01-19, 06:46   Link #533
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Originally Posted by arkangelsk View Post
The entire idea of "summoning" or "calling on someone's (especially a sentient's power" is frankly moronic beyond its physical consequences.
Summoning is rather common in the fantasy genre. You don't read much fantasy? Priests calling upon the Power of God is rather common too. Does the fact that these lean more towards classic fantasy than Nanoha's techno-magic style make you feel unconfortably out of your comfort-zone of rationalism?

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but why Voltaire will help Caro is frankly beyond me.
He gave her his blessing years ago, it got her kicked out of her village. One does not question the whims of a God.

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I think the little Fried we see is kind of a natural device, a little like Reinforce II really but made by Friedrich
You're probably wrong, since Caro said she raised him from an egg in ep10. If you're thinking, "he stuffed the device in an egg," Caro's memories show that no one in her tribe expected her to get a silver dragon. It was the other reason she got kicked out of her tribe. So it's not like someone gave her an egg and said "here's your device"
Fried's transformation is like Yuuno's, but on a much larger scale. How did you explain that one again?

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speculation here but methinks the summoned creatures' original world is the one where Caro, Erio and Lutecia lived in at the end of StrikerS
Wrong. After leaving RF6, Caro went back to the Environment Protection Squad she was with before joining RF6, Erio accompained her. She went there after Fate rescued her from the TSAB facility, which was after she was kicked out of her tribe. That world has nothing to do with her summons. Or Lutecia's. In fact, it's not known if Lutecia is even on the same world.
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Old 2008-01-19, 07:10   Link #534
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It is implied Lutecia is on the same world, seeing as how her butterfly thingy can reach Caro and Elio.
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Old 2008-01-19, 07:42   Link #535
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Summoning is rather common in the fantasy genre. You don't read much fantasy? Priests calling upon the Power of God is rather common too. Does the fact that these lean more towards classic fantasy than Nanoha's techno-magic style make you feel unconfortably out of your comfort-zone of rationalism?

He gave her his blessing years ago, it got her kicked out of her village. One does not question the whims of a God.
That it is painfully common is one thing. That summoning is generally not very well thought out from a rational point of view is another. But one still does the best he can. At least physically, most of summoning is not thathorrible.

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You're probably wrong, since Caro said she raised him from an egg in ep10. If you're thinking, "he stuffed the device in an egg," Caro's memories show that no one in her tribe expected her to get a silver dragon. It was the other reason she got kicked out of her tribe. So it's not like someone gave her an egg and said "here's your device"
Fried's transformation is like Yuuno's, but on a much larger scale. How did you explain that one again?
OK, let's do Yunno first, then move on to Fried. This is probably not going to be a popular idea, but the more I think about it, the more I think that Yunno's true default form is arguably the ferret. He may have been human once, and may still psychologically think of himself as one, but he's at least for Nanoha and Nanoha A's time period really a ferret and may have been one ever since.

Consider Ep 1. The guy has beaten off the Jewel Seed monster without managing to seal it. He's dead tired with his magic depleted. What does he do as a last step? He turns into a ferret! IIRC, in that Character Creation thread, Tk3997 postulates that shapeshifting is molecular manipulation with spare material moving in and out of a subspace bag. But that does not explain Ep 1 from an energy state point of view.

When you are tired, as a rule, you want to preserve energy, magical or otherwise. If Yunno's default form is human, why would his last move be to force open the portal (burn energy), stuff the bulk of his fermion mass into a subspace bag (use more energy) and reshape what's left of it into a ferret (can't have been free there either)? Surely it'll have not only have saved him energy not to go to all that trouble, but a human form has a greater chance of getting useful help than a ferret form. It is much bigger, thus easier to discover, and most people in a non-magical world will be a little less shocked conversing with a human. (Since he's trying to get help, secrecy is not his top priority, and a human form at least gives him an option of concealing his magical-being status). I'm not counting the possible health risks of performing such an operation when you are so tired - what if you get "stuck" in the middle?

If his real form is the ferret, there is probably no advantage to picking that moment to revert if the bag is true. There is only an advantage if he can either save some energy or recover some energy. If the human form is a mana creation, however, then dissolving it and reverting to only his ferret fermion mass will allow him to recover the energy used in its composition or at least save him the trouble of maintaining it (small as the upkeep may be). It'll also make the reversion very safe - the human form will self-dissolve when the energy is all gone and in fact that might have been what has happened; an involuntary or semi-voluntary action.

IMO, though Yunno might think otherwise, an objective way to decide a person's true form is to see what he turns into when he's near dead.

My StrikerS episodes are scattered over about a dozen unmarked disks (I use them as filler for DVDs mostly filled with other content), so checking exactly what is said is a bit tough - I plan to grab the new DVD versions coming out and consolidate them into a new DVD.

Anyway, for Fried, I know it is not a device per se. I'm using it as an analogy. I'm arguing his real form, at the time of StrikerS, is this huge dragon. He may have been bred by Caro and still could have been a huge dragon - in fact, it'll provide a rather objective reason for those beeps to kick her out. She obviously can't carry that dragon with her all the time, so Fried forks over a small piece of Linker Core and makes little Fried which Caro carries with her. The bulk either goes into hibernation or is subsisting somewhere on that summoner's world.

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Wrong. After leaving RF6, Caro went back to the Environment Protection Squad she was with before joining RF6, Erio accompained her. She went there after Fate rescued her from the TSAB facility, which was after she was kicked out of her tribe.
The tribe's world does not necessarily equate the world where the summoned creatures came from. But I was doing a bit of random speculation there. Never mind.

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That world has nothing to do with her summons. Or Lutecia's. In fact, it's not known if Lutecia is even on the same world.
They were close enough that Lutecia, which was actually exiled can have one of her flies send them a bouquet. Whatever else happens, they are on the same world.
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Old 2008-01-19, 08:09   Link #536
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
They were close enough that Lutecia, which was actually exiled can have one of her flies send them a bouquet. Whatever else happens, they are on the same world.
I'd hardly call a single flower a bouquet . Unless the animators really were that fucking lazy and drew one flower instead of twelve or something. If that's the case, I'm never watching an episode of Nanoha again.
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Old 2008-01-19, 08:20   Link #537
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Originally Posted by arkangelsk View Post
At least physically, most of summoning is not that horrible.
You're who calls it "moronic," not me.

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He may have been human once, and may still psychologically think of himself as one, but he's at least for Nanoha and Nanoha A's time period really a ferret and may have been one ever since.
So he started off as a human who has now somehow become a ferret who pretends to be human? Something about that just feels wrong. So, how would a human physically become a ferret with the ability to disguise himself as a human? And what would be the point of that?

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Anyway, for Fried, I know it is not a device per se. I'm using it as an analogy.
Not at the time, you weren't. And I quote:

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Originally Posted by arkangelsk View Post
So that leaves what is Fried. I think the little Fried we see is kind of a natural device, a little like Reinforce II really but made by Friedrich
Had you actually been thinking in terms of an analogy at the time, you would have said "like a kind of natural device". The only analogy you were thinking of was mini-Fried was made by Fried like Rein 2 was made by Hayate. Some might call it nitpicking grammar, but I think you really thought mini-Fried was a device at the time.
There's another thing, mini-Fried always disappears when Fried is around. If it had a seperate existence from big-Fried the way you seem to think it does, wouldn't it make sense to have mini-Fried around with the big one? Extra firepower always helps. I can't think of a good reason why, if mini-Fried wasn't big-Fried, the two of them can't be with Caro at the same time, can you?

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The tribe's world does not necessarily equate the world where the summoned creatures came from.
Oh yes it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by From StS DVD2 booklet, translated by Selkirk View Post
召喚士一族 - Summoner tribes
(StS DVD2)
Although they are few in number, there are a number of Summoner tribes on several worlds. Since "Summoning" involves an inseparable relationship with the subject creature, no matter if it is one of friendship or servitude, most summoner tribes live together with their summons in extremely remote wilderness areas. Summoners with great skill interacting with or using their summons are held in high regard within summoner tribes, but it is not rare to see cases where summoners who are too young and powerful are exiled. Tribal chiefs often decide to do this, in order to avoid any disputes, and to maintain the peace in the tribe.
When you think about it, why wouldn't a summoner tribe live near the native lands of their summons?

I've observed something about the way you argue, ark. Whenever you make assumptions to defend your position, you say it's allowable because canon doesn't contradict it, even when your opponents point out, there's no evidence supporting your assumption either. When others make assumptions to defend positions opposing yours, you are quick to point out that there's no evidence supporting their position and that simply not contradicting canon is not enough. Why is it only you have the privillige of making such assumptions?
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Old 2008-01-19, 08:44   Link #538
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I've observed something about the way you argue, ark. Whenever you make assumptions to defend your position, you say it's allowable because canon doesn't contradict it, even when your opponents point out, there's no evidence supporting your assumption either. When others make assumptions to defend positions opposing yours, you are quick to point out that there's no evidence supporting their position and that simply not contradicting canon is not enough. Why is it only you have the privillige of making such assumptions?
I'm more interested about how ark will quickly jump on weak arguments, like my mentions of RIM-66 and Sparrow, but is oddly silent on the subject of rifles and melee weapons...after I had put forth that the US Army is not keen on the idea, SEALs only use rifles in melee if the target is trying to grab the rifle, and SOCOM units and the Marines will prefer to drop the rifle and use a combat knife in melee instead of a rifle as a club/spear.

Hell, even Call of Duty 4 dropped the "Use your weapon's melee attack" for a knife strike.

Yeah, real good skills there, ark.
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Old 2008-01-19, 10:16   Link #539
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
You're who calls it "moronic," not me.
And you are the one who seems to want to defend it as "common" and accusing me of feeling "uncomfortable".

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So he started off as a human who has now somehow become a ferret who pretends to be human? Something about that just feels wrong. So, how would a human physically become a ferret with the ability to disguise himself as a human? And what would be the point of that?
Yes, I acknowledged that "feel wrong" thing when I noted that I do not expect it to be a popular theory. On the other hand, the world is not always intuitive.

The question I believe should be asked is: Why does Yunno want to become a ferret in the first place? But that's for the Character thread.

Given that he has chosen to be a ferret, I look at how he becomes a ferret and come up with the mechanism which I think can best explain the evidence.

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Had you actually been thinking in terms of an analogy at the time, you would have said "like a kind of natural device". The only analogy you were thinking of was mini-Fried was made by Fried like Rein 2 was made by Hayate. Some might call it nitpicking grammar, but I think you really thought mini-Fried was a device at the time.
Wow, this is a pathetic nitpick of words to gain a false Brownie point. I must admit that the misunderstanding was truly stunning to me, though I agree yours is a better phrasing. Anyway, now that we got that clarified, I see you don't have a substantive point.

ADDITION: Frankly, look at my posts, Jimmy. For various reasons, they are often constructed hastily, in a hectic fashion. Sometimes I post and then I realize I had not even finished answering one of the points (I had jumped around and forgot to come back to it). Other times the formatting comes loose (especially the quoting formatting) and there are more than a few typos. Given all this, don't you think you should give the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the exact wording?

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There's another thing, mini-Fried always disappears when Fried is around. If it had a seperate existence from big-Fried the way you seem to think it does, wouldn't it make sense to have mini-Fried around with the big one? Extra firepower always helps. I can't think of a good reason why, if mini-Fried wasn't big-Fried, the two of them can't be with Caro at the same time, can you?
Well, continuing with the device analogy, on the Rein tends to disappear from observation when fused with Hayate.

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When you think about it, why wouldn't a summoner tribe live near the native lands of their summons?
OK, fine, conceded. Scratch one speculation.

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I've observed something about the way you argue, ark. Whenever you make assumptions to defend your position, you say it's allowable because canon doesn't contradict it, even when your opponents point out, there's no evidence supporting your assumption either. When others make assumptions to defend positions opposing yours, you are quick to point out that there's no evidence supporting their position and that simply not contradicting canon is not enough. Why is it only you have the privillige of making such assumptions?
Frankly, I must disagree vehemently with this characterization.

When I criticized Tk3997's subspace bag theory, I did point out counterevidence that (IMHO) made his propositions unlikely, did I?

When I criticized the auto-jerking stabilization theory, I cited counterexamples of the use of stocks, proposed real-life ergonomic problems to his "solutions", and pointed out the limits to his own examples.

In other words, in both cases, it is not "no evidence", at least IMO it was very much "canon says otherwise". Not to mention real life for the latter (discussing "real life" for the former is a bit specious).

The non-contradiction of canon is the minimum for any theory. UPDATE: Almost forgot, the other requirement is that something needs explaining. Once you have that (to the best of your knowledge), IMO, you can propose it. That does not necessarily mean it is right, and I always give people a chance to jump on my theories, just as I'm jumping on theirs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose
I'm more interested about how ark will quickly jump on weak arguments, like my mentions of RIM-66 and Sparrow, but is oddly silent on the subject of rifles and melee weapons...after I had put forth that the US Army is not keen on the idea, SEALs only use rifles in melee if the target is trying to grab the rifle, and SOCOM units and the Marines will prefer to drop the rifle and use a combat knife in melee instead of a rifle as a club/spear.

Hell, even Call of Duty 4 dropped the "Use your weapon's melee attack" for a knife strike.

Yeah, real good skills there, ark
Ahh, we've finally disintegrated to personal attacks. So, if I answered it, it is a weak argument, and if I didn't, it is a strong one? Up till now, I was under the delusion that the strength of an argument depended on how well it is backed with evidence and all that, not on whether someone bothers to reply! Or did you deliberately throw out "weak arguments"?

Your latest post, IMO, is purely informative when Keroko was doing a fair job of convincing me, using his personal knowledge of melee ergonomics, that I had overestimated the relative melee combat coefficient of a rifle. Further, I wasn't interested in discussing SEALs, and I was actually supposed to be working (your post was posted as office hours start in Hong Kong - I work Saturdays) rather than answering posts about fictional universes. So I decided to get back to work. Sorry if that made you feel left out.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-01-19 at 10:35. Reason: Forgot something.
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Old 2008-01-19, 10:53   Link #540
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Ahh, we've finally disintegrated to personal attacks. So, if I answered it, it is a weak argument, and if I didn't, it is a strong one?
Lol, it's probably coincidental. Nope, it's not personal attacks (trust me, if I make a personal attack, you'll know), but rather a tongue-in-cheek poke, using obviously faulty logic.

But since you said it *grins* [/smartass]

Quote:
Up till now, I was under the delusion that the strength of an argument depended on how well it is backed with evidence and all that, not on whether someone bothers to reply! Or did you deliberately throw out "weak arguments"?
The mention of Sparrow was a weak argument; I was well aware it was a weak argument taken in whole, but chose to deploy it anyway, seeing as the point I was trying to make was that SARH was not impossible. (The practicality is another matter.) I'm well aware of the flaws and disadvantages of SARH missiles in air-to-air combat; the excercise where 4 Navy F-5Es with Sidewinders shot down 4 USAF F-15s with Sparrows tends to stick in one's mind as a rather graphic example.

Quote:
Your latest post, IMO, is purely informative when Keroko was doing a fair job of convincing me, using his personal knowledge of melee ergonomics, that I had overestimated the relative melee combat coefficient of a rifle. Further, I wasn't interested in discussing SEALs, and I was actually supposed to be working (your post was posted as office hours start in Hong Kong - I work Saturdays) rather than answering posts about fictional universes. So I decided to get back to work. Sorry if that made you feel left out.
Lol, at some point, all arguments are informative. Though that could be residual law studies going on in my head.

At any rate, it was merely giving real world examples to support what Keroko was doing, and to preempt the possible "But real Earth armies train people to fight melee with bayonets on rifles" argument.
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