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Old 2008-01-19, 12:12   Link #541
Jimmy C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkangelsk View Post
And you are the one who seems to want to defend it as "common" and accusing me of feeling "uncomfortable".
I'm not defending it. Merely pointing out it exists. You're not uncomfortable with it? Fine.

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Given that he has chosen to be a ferret, I look at how he becomes a ferret and come up with the mechanism which I think can best explain the evidence.
Aright, this is how you propose it happens:

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Originally Posted by arkangelsk View Post
If Yunno's default form is human, why would his last move be to force open the portal (burn energy), stuff the bulk of his fermion mass into a subspace bag (use more energy) and reshape what's left of it into a ferret (can't have been free there either)?
It appears to me that your assumption is that it takes a lot of energy to perform those actions and that those actions were what took place, if he indeed was a human who decided to change into a ferret.
Therefore, to you, it makes more sense from an energy point of view to dispell the illusion of being a human. But that doesn't fit his beheaviour of being human more often than not since A's.

Let's see what I can come up with. I'll lay my assumptions up front, feel free to assault them.
1. Yuuno is human by birth.
2. The change does not take much energy. If you've seen [Ranma 1/2] you wouldn't bat an eyebrow at this.
3. He can heal faster as a ferret. That recovery will be reflected when he reverts to human form.
The transformation spell "remaps" his body to that of a ferret, think of it as having a zoom lens that changes his shape as it shrinks him. Where does the extra mass go? Doesn't matter. We have a huge violation of mass conservation anyway. A ferret barely has as much mass as a human's head, there's no way it can carry a human mind without magic involved. After healing, he can revert and carry on the fight.
I'd say the shakiest assumption is 2. However, it's preferable to thinking how a ferret gained sentience and prefers to be human.

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Well, continuing with the device analogy, on the Rein tends to disappear from observation when fused with Hayate.
But Rein doesn't always fuse with Hayate. Do you wish to say Fried always does? I have nothing to contradict you if you want to. If someone could translate the "Dragon Soul Summon" entry in the StS DVD 2 booklet, that could shed some light on the issue. For me, if mini-Fried was capable if independant action seperate from big-Fired, I'd think there's be more than a few times having both around would be helpful.

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Frankly, I must disagree vehemently with this characterization.
I should apologize. Perhaps I was too hasty after all. The way you argue reminds of another poster. I put him on my ignore list right after joining. Yes, you make good points in your counterarguments. How could I mistake something like that?
But there was one time when your whole arguement was based completely on an assumption with no evidence backing it. You defended it very well. Unfortunately, I snapped at the end. It was only after the dust settled, that I realised had I understood your assumption earlier, I could have sunk your argument.
We can continue this in PM if you like.
And I'll be reading your posts closely from now on.

Last edited by Jimmy C; 2008-01-19 at 15:37.
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Old 2008-01-19, 12:27   Link #542
selkirk
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
But Rein doesn't always fuse with Hayate. Do you wish to say Fried always does? I have nothing to contradict you if you want to. If someone could translate the "Dragon Soul Summon" entry in the StS DVD 2 booklet, that could shed some light on the issue. For me, if mini-Fried was capable if independant action seperate from big-Fired, I'd think there's be more than a few times having both around would be helpful.
It's already been translated.
Quote:
竜魂召喚 - Dragon Soul Summon
Fried, Caro’s contracted dragon, normally accompanies Caro in a small form, but through a “Dragon Soul Summon” Fried can revert to its natural form. To have an enormous summoned beast with them, and to have the power of their natural forms ready at all times, Soul Summoning can be said to be an indispensable spell for summoners who normally have a summoned beast accompany them; however, because it is an advanced spell, the number of practitioners is small, even among summoners. Fried’s natural form is a rare “flying dragon” from the Alzus territory. Fried can fly through the air with Caro on its back, breathing flames.
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Old 2008-01-19, 12:52   Link #543
Jimmy C
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Thanks, Selkrik. I had looked at the posts around the Summoner Tribe entry but didn't find it. "Normally accompanies Caro in small form... revert to its natural form." I'd say that means mini-Fried and big-Fried are the same thing.
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Old 2008-01-19, 13:00   Link #544
dkellis
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Question:

Have we ever seen or heard of a book taken out of the Infinite Library?

I mean, most of the time we just see Yuuno and co. checking out stuff while inside the Library. But is anyone actually allowed to take the books out, or do they have to stay in there?
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Old 2008-01-19, 13:09   Link #545
Keroko
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No, we've never seen any physical books being taken out of the Library as far as I recall. However, its not a far stretch to asume that if any information is needed outside the Infinite Library, they simply digitalize it, which is also a lot safer then giving the more fragile, and perhaps even unique physical books.
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Old 2008-01-19, 17:29   Link #546
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Yuuno's original form is human, not ferret. Can't get around the dialogue. (It would be bizarre for Chrono to suggest that Yuuno turn into a human if he's really a ferret - but it's natural if he's not really a ferret, Chrono recognizes it as a disguise, and tactfully points out that the gig is up...) ;p

One wonders about the Infinity Library. Presumably it's not a conventional archive - the story is that EVERYTHING is in there, but the TSAB hasn't existed for all that long, really (and has fairly poor local history, to boot - no good records from 300 years ago on your own planet?) So obviously it's not just the result of a thorough archiving effort... it must contain information that the TSAB did not put in there! Either that, or the description of the archive is marketing BS served up by the Lieze twins. ;p

But, assuming that it is what it's said to be, you could see it as a kind of magical artifact on its own. Then, the challenge of finding something isn't just the result of an unforgivably lackluster attempt at archiving by the TSAB's woefully-underfunded library squad, but more like the challenge of drinking from a chink in the Hoover Dam.

We can't comfortably conclude that either is true, though. We know that Yuuno pulled a lot of information about of the Infinity Library, but there's nothing in that info that we can point to and say "nobody in the TSAB ever knew that". So it could just be a big-ass disorganized book dump, and Yuuno is busy putting it back into shape...

Don't mind me. I just finished the final subtitle formatting for A's vol. 3. ^^
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Old 2008-01-19, 20:52   Link #547
Keroko
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The way the Liezes describe it, the Infinite Library really is nothing more then a collection of all data the TSAB has gathered stuffed together in one place. Basically a really really large collection of books. They never say 'all knowledge' is there, just all the knowledge that they have gathered from all the worlds they have discovered, which if you look at earth's history alone, and imagine hundreds of other worlds like it, would amount to quite a lot of information that would very much seem infinite to the observer.
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Old 2008-01-19, 21:59   Link #548
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Huh. Went back and checked the lines, and they come out more or less in the middle - they say "every book and data imaginable", but nothing to indicate whether it really contains EVERYTHING or whether it's just extensive.

But if it's a conventional archive, why isn't it indexed? "Most of the contents are completely unorganized." That makes no sense if people are the ones filing the data - you'd expect that it'd at least be broken down simply, even if it's "popular novels from administrated world 97 from the year 0083" or something. Especially for a society with advanced data manipulation capability (and pet AIs), wouldn't they have taken a bit more care cross-indexing things?

So either the joke I told earlier really wasn't funny (i.e. that it's in the state of disrepair that it's in because the TSAB doesn't put any resources towards it... "oh, more books, chuck 'em in the Library and we'll get to them one day" type of thing), or it really does receive data in ways that preclude easy filing.
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Old 2008-01-19, 22:42   Link #549
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Yuuno's original form is human, not ferret. Can't get around the dialogue. (It would be bizarre for Chrono to suggest that Yuuno turn into a human if he's really a ferret - but it's natural if he's not really a ferret, Chrono recognizes it as a disguise, and tactfully points out that the gig is up...) ;p
I remember that (and just rechecked it). Yes, his original form was a human. The dialogue used 元, as in original. But it is not his true 本当 /真 form (go back and check that passage in those DVDs and make sure you've got that right ). It is pretty much undeniable that Yunno was originally a human, it is just what his natural / rest (lowest energy) form is now.

Further, Chrono keeps calling him a ferret and counted him among the familiars in the manga. We generally pass them off as jokes, but Chrono is hardly a joker by nature. It may actually have meant that Chrono was very conscious of Yunno's true natural / rest form.

As for the Infinity Library, my stab is that it is a giant bookcase. Frankly, my interest is not in its size, but how Yunno searches for information in it. Quick stab: Some kind of magical OCR, with the results being "sealed" in standardized formats into the back of each book, and thus easily searchable using standard computer-like techniques sounds the most reasonable.

And it definitely does not contain everything (or even everything that should matter to them) until it contains Field Manuals from Earth!

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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Thanks, Selkrik. I had looked at the posts around the Summoner Tribe entry but didn't find it. "Normally accompanies Caro in small form... revert to its natural form." I'd say that means mini-Fried and big-Fried are the same thing.
I read the same passage, and I get, normally in that little dragon form, and his natural form is summoned from Alzus to allow him to revert.

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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
It appears to me that your assumption is that it takes a lot of energy to perform those actions and that those actions were what took place, if he indeed was a human who decided to change into a ferret.
Therefore, to you, it makes more sense from an energy point of view to dispell the illusion of being a human. But that doesn't fit his beheaviour of being human more often than not since A's.

Let's see what I can come up with. I'll lay my assumptions up front, feel free to assault them.
1. Yuuno is human by birth.
Definitely. No contention.

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2. The change does not take much energy. If you've seen [Ranma 1/2] you wouldn't bat an eyebrow at this.
I watched at most 5 episodes of that show about ~15 years back on local TV, but IIRC the transformation was a poof thing.

The amount of energy to change is frankly unknown. My argument is actually not on the quantity, but whether Yunno is going "uphill" or "downhill" in his actions. When one does not have the energy to stand up, it is hard to see him going uphill even on a gentle slope, and "much energy" takes on a whole new meaning.

I rechecked the episode and he was arguably unconscious or very close to it by the time he transformed. Anything he did must either be instinctive or completely involuntary - hard to imagine him doing something "uphill".

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3. He can heal faster as a ferret. That recovery will be reflected when he reverts to human form.
The transformation spell "remaps" his body to that of a ferret, think of it as having a zoom lens that changes his shape as it shrinks him. Where does the extra mass go? Doesn't matter. We have a huge violation of mass conservation anyway. A ferret barely has as much mass as a human's head, there's no way it can carry a human mind without magic involved. After healing, he can revert and carry on the fight.
I'd say the shakiest assumption is 2. However, it's preferable to thinking how a ferret gained sentience and prefers to be human.
No one proposed a ferret gained sentience. In the unlikely event I actually said something that can be interpreted that way, consider said interpretation to be false or conceded.

I'll actually say 3 (the advantage) is the shakiest. He might be able to heal faster as a ferret, but:
a) He wasn't that badly injured - he was bleeding but it was not too serious; his main problem was that he's flat out tired. IIRC, he'll take a week to recover in that ferret form anyway, and he'll arguably have healed as a human in that time from that relatively light wound (a laceration?), especially since he knows healing magic.
b) Why would he even bother "healing" as a Ferret. Why doesn't he simply transform himself into a non-injured Ferret? It is moving the same mass around!
c) Let's call the amount of energy of "remapping" 30kg (Yunno's mass) of fermion mass into an injured (why?) ferret and shoving the remnants into subspace X. Wouldn't it have been much more efficient to just shove some fermions (less than 1kg worth) around to "paper over" the wound instead? Surely that energy will be in the region of 1/30X, plus he can retain all the advantages of being a human.
d) Since you argue that "human" is Yunno's present default form, and he must use magic to keep his mind in ferret form (because a ferret can't hold a large enough biological brain), you have to add the magic required to maintain the "magical brain" into the bargain (when if he stayed human that will not be a necessity). For me, such a proposition is not a problem - even if he must use magic to keep his mind, he may have had to do that in human form anyway, and shedding the strain of maintaining <30kg of mana mass arguably makes it a net plus anyway.

By the way, the way the extra mass is handled is of great importance to the energy balance - "doesn't matter" does not cut it. For example, if the >25kg of extra mass is reverted to energy, the balance will be positive (gain of energy) and Uminami will be annihilated from all that energy. If it is shoved into a subspace bag, the effort to shove the matter into the bag will inevitably be a drain of energy.

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But Rein doesn't always fuse with Hayate. Do you wish to say Fried always does?
Does he have other compatible partners?

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For me, if mini-Fried was capable if independant action seperate from big-Fired, I'd think there's be more than a few times having both around would be helpful.
As well as being made from Hayate's Linker Core, Rein II's core program actually resides in the Schwertkreuz (you see this in Epilogue of A's). It will certainly have been helpful had Rein been in one place and at least some of the programming left on the Schwertkreuz helped out Hayate, but that does not seem to be what happens - Schwertkreuz seems to be a "dead" (no-personality and no-assistance) Armed Device by itself. It is not clear what the rest of Fried does when it is in the little form - as I said, it might have been hibernating.
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Old 2008-01-20, 00:14   Link #550
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Chrono called him a ferret-wannabe, not a ferret. Then he said "I was merely joking". It's reasonable to assume he was joking at that point, even if he's something of a straight man.

Yuuno had enough magic remaining to heal himself, human or ferret, from what I recall. But he couldn't do that with it, because he still had a Jewel Seed beastie to deal with, and that magic was his only hope of dealing with it; when Nanoha took it out, that freed him to heal up.

It's not unreasonable that Yuuno picked ferret mode because it would be more inconspicuous; if he'd turned up in human form, bloody and injured, they'd put him in a hospital somewhere and freak when he left. In ferret mode, he could hope to sneak off when he was well without causing a ruckus. And nobody would ask the ferret to explain anything in the meantime, while Yuuno-human would have drawn a lot of questions he wouldn't want to answer...

One of the reasons that people want to say "hey, magic" instead of reach for a scientific explanation is that some of this stuff has ugly scientific connotations. Obviously Yuuno's transformations are doing something funky with conservation of mass! Yet we're not comfortable with it being somehow converted to energy - that's one hell of a lot of energy that Yuuno's got at his command. So what happens to it? We don't have a good explanation or even a theory, so "the magic takes care of it somehow" is the best we can do.
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Old 2008-01-20, 00:18   Link #551
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I don't think Yuuno just "picked" to be a ferret specifically for Earth. Since he doesn't exactly look like any native-Earth born ferret. Plus if he could pick a specific state he could turn into more then just a ferret.

Not saying he is naturally a ferret. But I seem to vaguely recall Yuuno said he was adopted into the Scryas or...?

I'm having a hard time forming complete thoughts today. Gomen.
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Old 2008-01-20, 01:17   Link #552
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Chrono called him a ferret-wannabe, not a ferret. Then he said "I was merely joking". It's reasonable to assume he was joking at that point, even if he's something of a straight man.
But he keeps calling him that. One time maybe it was funny (to Chrono), but several (and remember we see them intermittently we are seeing the tip of the iceberg)? I think Chrono actually says it out, then tries to smokescreen it with "a joke".

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Yuuno had enough magic remaining to heal himself, human or ferret, from what I recall. But he couldn't do that with it, because he still had a Jewel Seed beastie to deal with, and that magic was his only hope of dealing with it; when Nanoha took it out, that freed him to heal up.
I meant when he was still in that forest. He didn't have the energy to stand up, let alone heal. He might have charged up a bit since then (and no doubt disbanding his human form helped provide a small degree of reserve), but at that point in the forest he's flatter than a dead battery.

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It's not unreasonable that Yuuno picked ferret mode because it would be more inconspicuous; if he'd turned up in human form, bloody and injured, they'd put him in a hospital somewhere and freak when he left. In ferret mode, he could hope to sneak off when he was well without causing a ruckus. And nobody would ask the ferret to explain anything in the meantime, while Yuuno-human would have drawn a lot of questions he wouldn't want to answer...
A ferret that can get out of a cage? That will surely raise a ruckus. As a human, he'll at least be free (beyond an IV) in the hospital - they aren't likely to tie him up, much less encage him. Yunno human will also look human, while Yunno ferret isn't the same as a Terran ferret even on the outside and has already caused suspicion. If someone that can't help him comes up to ask Yunno human questions, he can just mumble "I don't remember" or just speak Midchildran. Midchildran is basically English. Speak English to a Japanese and half the time you can scare them off - at least according to www.gaijinsmash.com. Once he is left alone he can walk out without thinking about how to get out a cage.

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One of the reasons that people want to say "hey, magic" instead of reach for a scientific explanation is that some of this stuff has ugly scientific connotations. Obviously Yuuno's transformations are doing something funky with conservation of mass! Yet we're not comfortable with it being somehow converted to energy - that's one hell of a lot of energy that Yuuno's got at his command. So what happens to it? We don't have a good explanation or even a theory, so "the magic takes care of it somehow" is the best we can do.
A scientific explanation allows the possibility of it to be generalized and expanded.
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Old 2008-01-20, 03:05   Link #553
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I get the feeling that Chrono riding Yuuno on his furry side is just the writers' way of humanizing him, same as with his relationship with Amy. And he pokes fun at Yuuno pretty much all the time even without mentioning ferrets...

You don't think that a bloody kid showing up in a hospital one night, and gone in a couple of days, would create more of a stir than a mysterious disappearing ferret? Like, things with official records, police notified, yadda yadda? It's obvious that Yuuno's trying to keep a pretty low profile (and that the TSAB doesn't operate openly on Earth, right?)

And while a scientific explanation allows for the possibility of generalization and expansion, that doesn't help us if we just don't HAVE one. None of the competing theories for how Yuuno (and Fried, and Aruf or Zafira for that matter) can transform without either giving them access to silly-huge amounts of power or just utterly violating basic laws of physics. That's okay - we know they don't have the silly-huge power, so we have to conclude that it's the laws of physics that have to give. But we don't have any idea HOW. The writers don't toss us any explanation, they just expect the viewer to accept that it happens.

GOOD science fiction doesn't run into that problem. If you have the ability to do A, doing A is closely related to but more complicated than ability B, and a reasonable person would see how B would be useful, you'll have ability B too. (If you can cook a cake, you can probably cook bread; you might not DO it, but you could if you wanted to.)

Nanoha doesn't really clear the bar for that purpose. It's a great magical girl show, don't get me wrong. But it's only so-so scifi.
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Old 2008-01-20, 05:04   Link #554
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
I get the feeling that Chrono riding Yuuno on his furry side is just the writers' way of humanizing him, same as with his relationship with Amy. And he pokes fun at Yuuno pretty much all the time even without mentioning ferrets...
Yeah, I'm sure they never really thought that was how their scene would be interpreted. I bet they didn't think we'll blast the tactics out of the waters too. This is called the Law of Unintended Consequences.

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You don't think that a bloody kid showing up in a hospital one night, and gone in a couple of days, would create more of a stir than a mysterious disappearing ferret? Like, things with official records, police notified, yadda yadda? It's obvious that Yuuno's trying to keep a pretty low profile (and that the TSAB doesn't operate openly on Earth, right?)
From a city point of view, probably not. He's not going for full stealth or he won't be screaming over the magi-radio for help. Oh yeah, and he's not part of the TSAB at that time.

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And while a scientific explanation allows for the possibility of generalization and expansion, that doesn't help us if we just don't HAVE one. None of the competing theories for how Yuuno (and Fried, and Aruf or Zafira for that matter) can transform without either giving them access to silly-huge amounts of power or just utterly violating basic laws of physics. That's okay - we know they don't have the silly-huge power, so we have to conclude that it's the laws of physics that have to give. But we don't have any idea HOW. The writers don't toss us any explanation, they just expect the viewer to accept that it happens.
That's why I like mana forcefields. I don't have to use silly huge amounts of power because no mass is being converted to energy. It is also linked to a vast array of other skills, such as shields and illusions. And I don't even need a subspace bag.
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Old 2008-01-20, 05:58   Link #555
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by arkangelsk View Post
It is pretty much undeniable that Yunno was originally a human, it is just what his natural / rest (lowest energy) form is now.
And how does one change his "lowest-energy" form from the one he was born with to something smaller? Seems to me to be too much of a bother when one uses another form most of the time anyway.

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I watched at most 5 episodes of that show about ~15 years back on local TV, but IIRC the transformation was a poof thing.
I have no idea what you mean by a "poof" thing. For me, that shows a transformation that requires little to no energy to acomplish. What happens to the cursed person's surplus mass and how they keep their minds is unexplained other than "it's magic." I consider the human-to-beast transformations in Nanoha in a similar light. Since you have seen the show, do you accept how transformations happen in [Ranma]? If yes, I fail to see why you have problem with how transformations in Nanoha also violate the laws of physics. If not, do you have an explaination for how cursed transformations happen they way they do?

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b) Why would he even bother "healing" as a Ferret. Why doesn't he simply transform himself into a non-injured Ferret? It is moving the same mass around!
You know, I could say you have the same problem for him reverting to a "true form" ferret. Why did those injuries transfer over? The human form is fake anyway, why is the "ferret within" injured in the same place as well? With my "remapping" approach, at least I have an explaination for that. Say he has an injury one-fifth of the way from his elbow to his fingertips. That stays the same even though the length of the forearm has changed.

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d) even if he must use magic to keep his mind, he may have had to do that in human form anyway, and shedding the strain of maintaining <30kg of mana mass arguably makes it a net plus anyway.
For all I know, keeping his mind is a consequence of the spell and it is self-sustaining after the formshift. No energy needed to maintain.

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By the way, the way the extra mass is handled is of great importance to the energy balance - "doesn't matter" does not cut it.
Only in universes where breaking the Laws of Conservation is absolutely forbidden. It's about time you accepted Nanoha isn't one of these.

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A scientific explanation allows the possibility of it to be generalized and expanded.
Like Avatar said, What happens when there is NO scientific explaination? What do you do then?
I wonder, are you possibly not a fantasy fan? The way you analyse things and hold them to a rational framework here makes me think you're not, but I'd like to know for sure.
I myself detest the fantasy genre. There have been very, very few fantasy titles I've even bothered to read. I do not like how magic allows the Laws of Physics to be violated at will and I like how we can accomplish "magic attacks" with technology anyway.
I love science-fiction because it's willing to lay out its rules (the good ones anyway) and stick to them. As a result, I also hate "psionics" in sci-fi. Most people who put psionics in sci-fi seem to use them as an excuse to do magic instead of working with what reality gives them.
My fantasy collection is almost exclusively manga. When I pick them apart, like what we're doing for Nanoha now, I do it without a key assumption that I think you're making: Magic cannot violate the Laws of Physics. If it does, that violation must be as limited as possible. What happens when you check that assumption at the door?

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and it definitely does not contain everything (or even everything that should matter to them) until it contains Field Manuals from Earth!
They might be there already, but no one has dug them out of the junk heap yet.
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Old 2008-01-20, 06:50   Link #556
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
And how does one change his "lowest-energy" form from the one he was born with to something smaller? Seems to me to be too much of a bother when one uses another form most of the time anyway.
I think, the first time, say in the magic school, when he shapeshifts, that's when he leaves the extraneous mass behind. It doesn't matter what he uses most of the time. If anyone wants to shapeshift, he gives up all but the fermionic mass of his smallest shapeshifting form (Ferret for Yunno). I guess that's why shapeshifting is not very popular...

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I have no idea what you mean by a "poof" thing. For me, that shows a transformation that requires little to no energy to acomplish. What happens to the cursed person's surplus mass and how they keep their minds is unexplained other than "it's magic." I consider the human-to-beast transformations in Nanoha in a similar light. Since you have seen the show, do you accept how transformations happen in [Ranma]? If yes, I fail to see why you have problem with how transformations in Nanoha also violate the laws of physics. If not, do you have an explaination for how cursed transformations happen they way they do?
Jimmy, 15 years ago, I was like 8 or thereabouts. Especially since it is obvious I did not particularly like the show, why would I analyze it. Anyway, I could be totally wrong since I saw it 15 years ago, but IIRC, Ranma's apparent mass does not change that much b/w male and female (a small difference can be shoved into muscle and bone).

And why does the fact that Ranma may indeed be unanalyzable mean the same is true for MGLN?

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You know, I could say you have the same problem for him reverting to a "true form" ferret. Why did those injuries transfer over? The human form is fake anyway, why is the "ferret within" injured in the same place as well? With my "remapping" approach, at least I have an explaination for that. Say he has an injury one-fifth of the way from his elbow to his fingertips. That stays the same even though the length of the forearm has changed.
OK, but explain this to me. Why am I restricted to this:
(A = Mana human, B = Fermion ferret)

AAAAAAAAA
AAAABBBAA
AAAAAAAAA

While you are allowed to insist the particles you want are dispersed like this:
(A = Human-only fermions, B = Ferret fermions)
AAAABAAAA
AABAAAAAA
AAAAAABAA

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For all I know, keeping his mind is a consequence of the spell and it is self-sustaining after the formshift. No energy needed to maintain.
Wow, this is a nice piece of handwaving. So now you declare that a small brain does not require magic upkeep, but then that has to go for both theories, no?

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Only in universes where breaking the Laws of Conservation is absolutely forbidden. It's about time you accepted Nanoha isn't one of these.
Sorry, pal. The laws of conservation are the very foundation of science. Subspace bags, direct M-E conversion and mana forcefields aren't great, but they still beat violating Laws of Conservation all hollow.

In a world where humans exist, there are strict limits to how much the laws can differ. Any new laws must be exceptions and fit into the "gaps" of our present observation.
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Old 2008-01-20, 08:38   Link #557
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Still means it is a major drain on your concentration. Do you see them doing sharp maneuvers or are they firing Sparrow missiles? I'm sure in Ep7, Vita was not doing a whole lot of moving after she fires her Swallow Fliers, for example.
No, but then Vita has to go through a lot more complicated motions to fire her Schwalbe Fliegen, Nanoha only has to create and fire. As for complicated manouvers, we see them flying at high speeds, pursuing targets while firing without any noticable downsides, which is still far more then your initial claim of being immobile even if we do dismiss that they can use such attacks while pursuing targets.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
And what happened to the range and speed objections. The distance you most need to aim are distances beyond the known ranges of the guided bombs.
Almost all combat takes place inside those ranges, anything outside control-range can be easilly dodged by simply moving aside.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Perhaps the core is more vulnerable than you think. The reason I don't buy mass, mana or energy theories is because more than half the time, the mass lost is only a tiny percentage. If you believe the core was undamaged, it is more a matter of smoothing over what's there than bringing up new stuff.
'smoothing over' about a meter of missing solid material? That's not just a tiny percentage, Bardiche lost close to 50% of his mass in that blow. It's far more logical that Fate channeled mana into Bardiche, which replaced the lost ellements before solidifying, which is exactly what we see. Sometimes, things simply are what you see is what you get. Fate channeled mana (energy) into Bardiche which became solid (matter).

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
In my 19:40, Nanoha is covering her ears from Eisengheul. A few seconds after that, Vita was about a 5px blob. When Vita stopped and turned back to look, Nanoha was a 5px blob as we already measured.

From now on, don't tell me it is a dot so I get excited unless it is at most 2px across. And don't call 100m long range. We need to standardize terminology.
I'm wondering how you can so accurately calculate a distance like that to be 100 meter? To me, it looks far more then that. Plus, we already know thanks to Hayate and Sein, that 100 metres is not nearly the max range for a magic blast. The reason Hayate needs ground support for accuracy is that, in her own words, she is a klutz with long range sighting and accurate fire. Normally she uses Rein to compensate.

Now this is important. Hayate uses a device to compensate her lack of accuracy on long ranged shots. This shows that devices are very much capable of aiding their wielders in Long Ranged shots.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Since you are handwaving away all ergonomic problems with LR shots, I figure you are.
You're missing the point. You are accusing me of something I didn't. Quote me a part in the post down bellow where I 'papered over weaknesses with unproven magitech':

Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I'm deferring to it. You'll notice I am conceding staff is a superior weapon in melee.

Further, even if I AGREE that the staff should be the default form, one should think when they are going for the LR mode, it can have a STOCK!
And since they don't do something as simple as that, obviously it is not an issue for accuracy.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
OK, add a coarse steering knob to the console. Does that equate aiming assistance?

PRECISELY. So why do you insist that one equates the other (or even seriously hints at the possibility of the other)? The best we've seen a device do is play back spells to move the user. Even in the most optimistic interpretation one can see the movements are coarse and rough.

Remember how you described the arm-jerk stabilization to be "nudges"? Do THOSE look like "nudges" to you? DO they look like they can evolve to "nudges"?
Do you really think nudges are capable of driving away an aproaching enemy? And once more, Mach Calibur was completely controlling an unconsious wielder the difference between that and aiding someone in accuracy is quite honestly laughable. Yes of course the motions with Subaru are going to apear more jerky! Mach Calibur has to control an entire body do block, dodge and attack the enemy. Machines these day can also apear as having 'course and rough' motions, but what do we use when we make something as complicated as computer chips? Machines. Why do we do that? Because of their accuracy. The same machine that may apear unyieldingly rough one moment, can be accurate enough to put together a swat of chips the next moment. Those are current day machines, the devices in Nanoha are Intelligent Devices. Artificial Intelligence. Sentient Machines, hell Subaru and Nanoha have conversations with their devices, to even claim that they are not capable of making improvised actions is apaling, really.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
We are going by thermodynamics, so from a scientific POV, there is no "method". When you revert ~30kg of mass to energy, the energy release is in the gigaton range. And being energy, Fate won't have vitals or will to have a dream.
Once again, you are thinking this goes by 'scientific method A' You have to realize that the Nanohaverse is technolocially more advanced then ours. If you would jump back in time and tell someone about nuclear energy, they'd laugh you in the face. Science is an ever growing area, and there could very well come a time where we figure out a way to convert matter to energy without going as far as gigaton class energy.

Once again I point to teleporting, teleporting works by turning mass into energy and sending it of to its destination before reforming it into matter again. Do they lose life signs? No. Does it require or yield gigaton range energies? No.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Concession accepted. GIVEN that thanks to a dangerous neglect of long range ergonomics, long range shots are not possible (even a 100m shot is considered some kind of miracle), and a emphasis on melee, concentrating on the primary role is probably correct.
And yet in StikerS over 100 meter shots are treated as common as dirt. Sounds to me like either,

A: Vita was not acustomed to long ranged shots, which surprised her, or
B: The range was more then 100m.

That's the tactical option they chose, which is reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Just taking a reasoned interpretation.

Datapoint A: Test subject = Powerful mage with no knowledge of magic. FLying = Easy
Datapoint B: Test subject = Wimpy mages with (presumably) knowledge of magic. Flying = Hard.

The most reasonable interpretation suggests that the primary component of the difficulty is power.
Either that, or a control thing. Like you said, Nanoha has always excelled at control. Also note that her first primary flight experience was due to Raising Heart helping her fly.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Counterexample?
StrikerS 2 and StrikerS 11, where Hayate even says she normally has Rein help her with control and accuracy. StikerS 25, unless you say that Nanoha somehow gained X-ray vision to allow her to aim manually through multiple bulkheads, this was done automatically.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
If she was literally jerking on a joystick, it'll be impossible to control twelve bombs. Neverthless, the control is manual and thus is a huge drain on concentration, forcing one to either fly straight (even stand still with eyes closed) or switch to auto-homing with its weaknesses. And again, the guided bombs are used at close range.

Starting from the T-64B, Soviet tanks have a guided missile they can use for targets out of effective range of their guns. Fighters have guided missiles out of range of the unguided cannona nd rockets. In the Nanoverse, Nanoha has a straight running shot that can be used out of range of the guided shots.
Flying straight at high speeds pursuing targets. One does not use attacks that force one to fly straight if one is pursuing targets. Obviously these attacks can be used while manouvering, otherwise they wouldn't use them. Axel Shooter hs also never been labeled as a homing attack, as far as I recal. In fact, seeing how Raising Heart specifically asks Nanoha for control of the attack suggests that all shots are manually controled every time we see the attack.

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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Huh. Went back and checked the lines, and they come out more or less in the middle - they say "every book and data imaginable", but nothing to indicate whether it really contains EVERYTHING or whether it's just extensive.

But if it's a conventional archive, why isn't it indexed? "Most of the contents are completely unorganized." That makes no sense if people are the ones filing the data - you'd expect that it'd at least be broken down simply, even if it's "popular novels from administrated world 97 from the year 0083" or something. Especially for a society with advanced data manipulation capability (and pet AIs), wouldn't they have taken a bit more care cross-indexing things?

So either the joke I told earlier really wasn't funny (i.e. that it's in the state of disrepair that it's in because the TSAB doesn't put any resources towards it... "oh, more books, chuck 'em in the Library and we'll get to them one day" type of thing), or it really does receive data in ways that preclude easy filing.
Well, imagine it like this: If it really is an archive that can magically gather every single piece of data that exists in the many universes, how come such a wonder device doesn't automatically categorize it? If it can do something as complicated as gather all knowledge, then categorizing it shouldn't be that much of a hassle.

Concidering how Yuuno empasized that the area of categorizing and catalouging the information was 'neglected for far too long' I really do think that they just grabbed the data and stuffed it into the library. After all, if you discover a new world and gather all the data you can about it, do you have any idea how much information you would end up with? It's hard to find people up to the task of organizing it, so they just say 'stuff it in the library, we'll sort it out later'

Concidering the TSAB isn't an old organization, the amount of data they would have found in a short time would have been immense, and few -if anybody- would have felt like going through that while there were more important tasks at hand, hence why it was neglected for so long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
A ferret that can get out of a cage? That will surely raise a ruckus. As a human, he'll at least be free (beyond an IV) in the hospital - they aren't likely to tie him up, much less encage him. Yunno human will also look human, while Yunno ferret isn't the same as a Terran ferret even on the outside and has already caused suspicion. If someone that can't help him comes up to ask Yunno human questions, he can just mumble "I don't remember" or just speak Midchildran. Midchildran is basically English. Speak English to a Japanese and half the time you can scare them off - at least according to www.gaijinsmash.com. Once he is left alone he can walk out without thinking about how to get out a cage.
What would make more of a ruckus, a ferret escaping form a cage, or an unknown wounded boy with no ID escaping from a hospital?

Obviously the ferret form was the better choice. Had he remainded human and escaped, he could have faced the consequences of being wanted by the police, not to mention that if he had stayed in the hospital, he would have been subjected to questioning about what had happened. As a ferret he escaped a lot of complications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I think, the first time, say in the magic school, when he shapeshifts, that's when he leaves the extraneous mass behind. It doesn't matter what he uses most of the time. If anyone wants to shapeshift, he gives up all but the fermionic mass of his smallest shapeshifting form (Ferret for Yunno). I guess that's why shapeshifting is not very popular...
Actually, transformation magic is treated pretty casual in the Nanohaverse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Jimmy, 15 years ago, I was like 8 or thereabouts. Especially since it is obvious I did not particularly like the show, why would I analyze it. Anyway, I could be totally wrong since I saw it 15 years ago, but IIRC, Ranma's apparent mass does not change that much b/w male and female (a small difference can be shoved into muscle and bone).
There are people changing into small animals as well, like little piglets and cats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
And why does the fact that Ranma may indeed be unanalyzable mean the same is true for MGLN?
Because the transformations follow the same basic principles? Lots of mass becomes small amount of mass.
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Old 2008-01-20, 09:24   Link #558
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by arkangelsk View Post
Anyway, I could be totally wrong since I saw it 15 years ago, but IIRC, Ranma's apparent mass does not change that much b/w male and female (a small difference can be shoved into muscle and bone).
Ranma's lucky his curse still left him human. Among the other cursed people in the series are a boy who turns into a piglet, another who turns into a duck, a girl who turns into a kitten, a boy who turns into chimera monstrosity and a girl who turns into Asura incarnate. All with just a splash of water. What the hell happened to conservation of mass there?

Quote:
And why does the fact that Ranma may indeed be unanalyzable mean the same is true for MGLN?
Because both shows openly defy the Laws of Conservation to make their magic work. Would you care to explain to me what happens to the mass of a boy who changes into a piglet a tenth his size when he's splashed by water? Seems to be similar to our problem with Yuuno here.

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OK, but explain this to me. Why am I restricted to this:
While you are allowed to insist the particles you want are dispersed like this:
You're not restricted to that. But I'd think that'd be the best way to go for a ferret in a mana-formed human body, don't you? Putting all the real mass in the middle of the mana-form gives it more protection. But he'd be less injured if that was really the case.
Second, if you wish to disperse the real fermions throughout the mana-form, you'd have to explain how he can maintain his existence after his body is scattered like that and before the mana-form comes into existence around them. Also, you argued that if the ferret form is the real form, letting go of the mana form and reverting is "downhill" compared to a human shrinking into a ferret. But if his ferret form mass is scattered throughout his mana-form like you want, that "downhill" could turn into "falling off the cliff" if he can't maintain his "self" before his scattered mass can reform as a ferret. We see his body glow as it shrinks, this could be a protective cocoon, but the atoms would still need to be guided to their proper places in the ferret form. what if he loses concentration and all the atoms drop to a pile on the ground? I see this as being as difficult as a human shrinking into a ferret, if not even more.
If they are not scattered, they'd only have to assume new forms to complete the mana-body. Not that that isn't bad enough to deal with on its own.
Still think this is easier than a human shrinking into a ferret?

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Wow, this is a nice piece of handwaving. So now you declare that a small brain does not require magic upkeep, but then that has to go for both theories, no?
I'm thinking more in terms of mind and soul than brain and body. Fantasy's like that.

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Sorry, pal. The laws of conservation are the very foundation of science. Subspace bags, direct M-E conversion and mana forcefields aren't great, but they still beat violating Laws of Conservation all hollow.
And I'd feel the same way if this was a fully sci-fi universe, but it isn't. Despite the techno appearance of the devices, Nanoha's universe has more in common with wizards in stone castles, waving wooden staffs and casting spells at each other. Those wizards can do things people would consider breaking the Laws of Conservation, I'm willing to give Nanoha the same lattitude, that's all.
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Old 2008-01-20, 11:30   Link #559
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Ranma's lucky his curse still left him human. Among the other cursed people in the series are a boy who turns into a piglet, another who turns into a duck, a girl who turns into a kitten, a boy who turns into chimera monstrosity and a girl who turns into Asura incarnate. All with just a splash of water. What the hell happened to conservation of mass there?
I don't think "pseudomatter using mana" is as establishable there, so a quickie stab says to use some kinda subspace bag.

Quote:
Because both shows openly defy the Laws of Conservation to make their magic work. Would you care to explain to me what happens to the mass of a boy who changes into a piglet a tenth his size when he's splashed by water? Seems to be similar to our problem with Yuuno here.
See above.

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You're not restricted to that. But I'd think that'd be the best way to go for a ferret in a mana-formed human body, don't you? Putting all the real mass in the middle of the mana-form gives it more protection. But he'd be less injured if that was really the case.
Simplistic considerations say that. On the other hand, any theory we make must wrap around the evidence, so if the only way to make a theory compliant is to spread those fermions around the total mass, that has to be it.

An advantage of spreading the fermions around is that it makes for a better disguise. Imagine what a X-ray might look like if there's a ferret inside a human body. Plus, the center of the human happens to be a lot of human organs. So basically you are forced to break the ferret up into several pieces anyway, unless you want your disguise only skin deep.

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Second, if you wish to disperse the real fermions throughout the mana-form, you'd have to explain how he can maintain his existence after his body is scattered like that and before the mana-form comes into existence around them.
Obviously, maneuvering the fermions and inserting mana into the gaps occurs simultaneously, just as maneuvering the fermions and grabbing more fermions out of the bag occurs simultaneously in the bag theory.

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Also, you argued that if the ferret form is the real form, letting go of the mana form and reverting is "downhill" compared to a human shrinking into a ferret.
Definitely. That's probably the big advantage of it for me.

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But if his ferret form mass is scattered throughout his mana-form like you want, that "downhill" could turn into "falling off the cliff" if he can't maintain his "self" before his scattered mass can reform as a ferret.
Here's an idea. Use "leak-before-break" systems. Basically, the exterior is made so it fails a little faster than the interior. When he's really near dead, the exterior fails first and the whole matrix collapses neatly into the ferret, recovering mana as it goes. It might even kill the need for concentration in the process - the reversion is all automated, requiring almost exactly as little thought as the authors gave when creating the shapeshifting ability in the first place

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And I'd feel the same way if this was a fully sci-fi universe, but it isn't. Despite the techno appearance of the devices, Nanoha's universe has more in common with wizards in stone castles, waving wooden staffs and casting spells at each other. Those wizards can do things people would consider breaking the Laws of Conservation, I'm willing to give Nanoha the same lattitude, that's all.
Try arguing Star Wars. It is a fantasy and a sci-fi packed in one!
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Old 2008-01-20, 12:27   Link #560
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by arkangelsk View Post
So basically you are forced to break the ferret up into several pieces anyway, unless you want your disguise only skin deep.
Pieces that are right next to each other. Reforming the ferret in that case is like molding clay. OTOH, if they're scattered around, you need to gather the bits of clay together first.

Quote:
It might even kill the need for concentration in the process - the reversion is all automated, requiring almost exactly as little thought as the authors gave when creating the shapeshifting ability in the first place
It you want it to be automated, I'll grant you that. However, why can't I say that shrinking a human to a ferret is automated and requires nothing from him after triggering the spell, too? It could be all set up, with the instructions for where everything needs to go. He gives the GO command and just supplies one burst of energy to get the ball rolling.

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Try arguing Star Wars. It is a fantasy and a sci-fi packed in one!
You think violating Conservation is bad? Try dealling with prescience(SP?) instead!

EDIT: Additional argument.
As I think about it, if Yuuno was just dissipating a mana-form and reverting to his true ferret form, there's even less reason for him to show injuries than the "remapping" approach I advocated. If the atoms, even molecules, of his true form were distributed throughout the mana body, they can't suffer any damage that would show as an injury in his ferret form.

One other thing:
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Simplistic considerations say that. On the other hand, any theory we make must wrap around the evidence, so if the only way to make a theory compliant is to spread those fermions around the total mass, that has to be it.
I find it amusing that you're not critising them for not taking the most practical approach to dealing with a problem. Back when we were talking about device design, you took us to the task for defending current designs as unsuitable for accuracy and stability and presented examples that were better. Very well done. Yet here, I'm showing you one way they could have done things better going the way you want, and you just wave it off?

Last edited by Jimmy C; 2008-01-20 at 12:40.
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