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Old 2008-03-05, 02:46   Link #741
AdmiralTigerclaw
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It would be rejected.

It fires a solid mass slug. And this slug is intended to deal the damage. That falls under the TSAB banned premise of 'using physical mass to inflict damage on an enemy'. You encase it in magic so it will snap a hole in a barrier, which is a good mechanism to work with from a purely intelligent, technical standpoint, but... that just makes it an 'armor piercing' (Barrier piercing) round... it's still using mass based solid projectile mechanism to do the damage. That would make it banned under TSAB regulation and would require either some insane permit (It's insane just to get permits for using mass weapons merely in experimental systems tests in the middle of the ocean...), an act of plot, or the user working outside the law (and subject to repercussions unless they're against the TSAB, which probably makes them a villain.)
That makes it no more than a magic reinforced 9mm pistol. I suggest a change in mechanics if you want an effective shot weapon.

And Really... tshouryuu, you underestimate me.
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Old 2008-03-05, 02:50   Link #742
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I tend to give the TSAB credit when they're corroborated by the actual show (and, heh, less when they ain't.) They've got a lively respect for Jewel Seeds; well, the show gives us plenty of reason to believe them. Huge tree. Seed go boom in Nanoha and Fate's face, smashing up otherwise-pretty-tough RH and Bardiche (and their users, a little...) Big-ass storm. Fate's hand injuries, just trying to pick one up without the proper seal on, and presumably she knew what she was doing!

Even the silly effects (kitty!) only underscore that they're randomly dangerous.

All that said, I'm not convinced that we're looking at actual Jewel Seeds in the gadgets, shards or no. I'd have to go over the translation of that scene more carefully (and frankly, technical Japanese is not my strong point - I leave that to others who actually do get paid for it, heh.) Somehow I'd prefer to believe that they're not THE Jewel Seeds, or chunks of 'em, but Jewel-Seed-like fragments. We can assume that the TSAB has the Seeds available to study and that Scag had access to the results of their research (and, hey, he's a mad genius!) But if they're actual little fragments of Jewel Seed, then their supply is quite finite, especially compared with the huge number of gadgets we see flying around (and their utterly disposable nature). If there wasn't a means to make as many more of them as he wanted, I can't see Jail throwing them away like that, and that argues against "irreplaceable physical component".

Get someone to license Strikers, I'll go subtitle it and get back to you. ;p
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Old 2008-03-05, 02:51   Link #743
tshouryuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
It would be rejected.

It fires a solid mass slug. And this slug is intended to deal the damage. That falls under the TSAB banned premise of 'using physical mass to inflict damage on an enemy'. You encase it in magic so it will snap a hole in a barrier, which is a good mechanism to work with from a purely intelligent, technical standpoint, but... that just makes it an 'armor piercing' (Barrier piercing) round... it's still using mass based solid projectile mechanism to do the damage. That would make it banned under TSAB regulation and would require either some insane permit (It's insane just to get permits for using mass weapons merely in experimental systems tests in the middle of the ocean...), an act of plot, or the user working outside the law (and subject to repercussions unless they're against the TSAB, which probably makes them a villain.)
That makes it no more than a magic reinforced 9mm pistol. I suggest a change in mechanics if you want an effective shot weapon.

And Really... tshouryuu, you underestimate me.
Hehe I know. Btw just for laughs, technically your own weapon's shot also has physical mass very very little but its still there. So you just busted your own weapon
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Old 2008-03-05, 02:56   Link #744
Nightengale
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
.All that said, I'm not convinced that we're looking at actual Jewel Seeds in the gadgets, shards or no. I'd have to go over the translation of that scene more carefully (and frankly, technical Japanese is not my strong point - I leave that to others who actually do get paid for it, heh.) Somehow I'd prefer to believe that they're not THE Jewel Seeds, or chunks of 'em, but Jewel-Seed-like fragments. We can assume that the TSAB has the Seeds available to study and that Scag had access to the results of their research (and, hey, he's a mad genius!) But if they're actual little fragments of Jewel Seed, then their supply is quite finite, especially compared with the huge number of gadgets we see flying around (and their utterly disposable nature). If there wasn't a means to make as many more of them as he wanted, I can't see Jail throwing them away like that, and that argues against "irreplaceable physical component".

Get someone to license Strikers, I'll go subtitle it and get back to you. ;p
Didn't Fate say the next 2 episodes or something during her talk with Yuuno something along the lines that Scaglietti had stolen the Jewel Seeds that were under TSAB's custody?

And hey, I still say he can make at least 1,000,000 Drones with just one jewel judging from the estimated size, and not like he needs Drones anymore if he really took over Mid-childa, since he can finally do a wide-spread genetic cloning/base-forming and have hundreds of cyborgs in a few years time.
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Old 2008-03-05, 03:06   Link #745
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Well if I were to do a diagram, maybe that would help explain how my cartridges work.

_____
<|__|__|
1 2 3

1: Obviously the bullet
2: The compressed energy
3: The gunpowder, which reacts with the energy, creating not only the explosive force launching the bullet, but then also releasing the energy inside, resulting in boost of power.

However, since my desired concept is actually for armour piercing, it would be illegal anyways, but TSAB standards, right?
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Old 2008-03-05, 03:10   Link #746
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Pardon me, but it feels like if the characters' statements do not seem to support your case, you're telling me it's alright to assume they're "mostly wrong"?
You have never heard of the STvsSW debate of DS9:The Die is Cast?
Spoiler for STvsSW TDiC:
Anyway, incompetence is hardly an impossibility, but other possibilities include the misunderstanding of context on our part as well.

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If we can't rely on the characters to present the situation to us properly, what are we watching?
Star Trek (refers not only to TDiC, but also to the number of times incompetence is shown in their people)

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That doesn't mean it wouldn't have grown beyond those limits given time. Like a fire, again, in the early stages one person can stop it alone, if she knew what she was doing. If unchecked, it will grow to something no number of people can halt. So, does the fact that a single person can stop a fire from elscalating mean there's no such thing as an unstoppable fire?
OK, but if you want to analogize it to a forest fire, then I get to analogize using the other part as well. The unstoppable forest fire is a chain reaction, with most of the fuel and danger being provided by the environment. The Jewel Seeds thus play the almost powerless lit match.

That's another perfectly acceptable end to this question, but now it isn't too different from my construction. The main point is that the Jewel Seed is not necessarily as h3xx in power as is commonly assumed from dialogue with unknown context and images apparently pulled from imagination. I weaken the estimate of spacetime fabric strength, you grab extra power from god knows where.

As for the power output of the Jewels, they were already in the bouzou range, so you can hardly say they aren't doing their best or working up (not to mention if they are working up by orders of magnitude, so should the intensity of the quake as they shake the dimensions harder and harder, but there seems no sign of this).

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You're grasping at straws here.
All that is required for a workable theory is that I somehow account for all the "destroy" stuff while maintaining consistency with our actual observations.

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How "weak" do you want that break point to be? Weaker than the Starlight Breaker?
Probably not. Its ability to raise an actual tornado probably puts it ahead in that regard.

Quote:
Weaker than Arc-en-ciel?
Maybe. Maybe not.

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You seem to assert the full activation of the Seeds can't be much stronger than what Lindy stopped. The Arc-en-ciel is certainly a stronger magical blast than that, it didn't tear the spacetime fabric apart.
Now, you are assuming that it is a matter of pure power difference. Perhaps the difference is whether you set it to "spatial-seismic" or another employment mode.

By the way, why do you think the Arcenciel necessarily does not open a hole? We know it is called some kind of spatial distortion cannon, but if space is merely distorted without breaking, the matter that is the enemy will remain at the end as the distortion is removed- it may be twisted around or even scattered, but it should still be there. But if a hole is opened via high-distortion, then there is a place for the matter to go and it'll be eliminated (消滅) from 3D space.

In fact, when the Arc blasted the BoD, we briefly saw what looked very much like a green voidspace, which then closed. It is quite reasonable that there was a hole, but it was zipped up.

Going further to the sides, the convenience of interdimensional transport also supports the fact that punching holes in spacetime is relatively easy. (BTW, when Chrono ships came out in Ep26, it looks like they came out through holes in spacetime as well, which they apparently closed after themselves).
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Old 2008-03-05, 03:20   Link #747
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
I tend to give the TSAB credit when they're corroborated by the actual show (and, heh, less when they ain't.) They've got a lively respect for Jewel Seeds; well, the show gives us plenty of reason to believe them. Huge tree.
Which equates to world-destroying ability how.

Quote:
Seed go boom in Nanoha and Fate's face, smashing up otherwise-pretty-tough RH and Bardiche (and their users, a little...)
Which equates to world-destroying ability how.

Quote:
Big-ass storm.
Ep9? Probably the best of the set. But which equates to world destroying ability how.

Quote:
Fate's hand injuries, just trying to pick one up without the proper seal on, and presumably she knew what she was doing!
Even if I generously grant it'll take a tacnuke to scorch Fate's hands, that equates to world destroying ability how.

Quote:
Even the silly effects (kitty!) only underscore that they're randomly dangerous.
Ironically, probably the kitty came closest to using it as the Al-Hazredians intended - a convenient tool to grant wishes.

Which equates to world-destroying ability how. That's the problem with them. Yes, they are pretty impressive, but as shown they just aren't destroying the world. Either there is something funny w/ the way they'll do so (misunderstanding of context on our part), or the characters are ... wrong.

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Somehow I'd prefer to believe that they're not THE Jewel Seeds, or chunks of 'em, but Jewel-Seed-like fragments.
If they are Jewel Seed-like (by like, I of course do not count a visual similarity), I'll be sorely disappointed in what that means for the real Jewel seed.
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Old 2008-03-05, 03:24   Link #748
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
Hehe I know. Btw just for laughs, technically your own weapon's shot also has physical mass very very little but its still there. So you just busted your own weapon
Along with any weapon that uses Lightning, or a sword's blade, or your fist, or brass knuckes... You catch my drift We all know what we mean though when they say physical mass. It's plainly obvious they mean 'firearms that shoot metal bullets and greater'.

I would find it funny though if one day someone challanged nanoha to a fight, and just shot her Indiana Jones style with a tranq gun.

NANOHA: Wha- @.@ *THUD!* Zzzz...

RANDOM EXTRA 1: "Well that was easy... Hey Ed, how bid a dose of chlorpromazine was IN that thing?"
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Old 2008-03-05, 03:33   Link #749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Along with any weapon that uses Lightning, or a sword's blade, or your fist, or brass knuckes... You catch my drift We all know what we mean though when they say physical mass. It's plainly obvious they mean 'firearms that shoot metal bullets and greater'.

I would find it funny though if one day someone challanged nanoha to a fight, and just shot her Indiana Jones style with a tranq gun.

NANOHA: Wha- @.@ *THUD!* Zzzz...

RANDOM EXTRA 1: "Well that was easy... Hey Ed, how bid a dose of chlorpromazine was IN that thing?"
Question though, if such things are illegal, why are not Graf Eisen and Laevaetien no illegal, although they could just as easily do what I wanted my device to do, if not worse? I mean sure I could put a whole through a person, but what's that compared to a sword or a sledge hammer? :3

I mean Vita would just have to go in and shatter the shield, and then Signum goes in for the kill :3

Granted it's not their character, but that's the essence of what I want to achieve with my device.
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Old 2008-03-05, 03:34   Link #750
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Which equates to world-destroying ability how.



Which equates to world-destroying ability how.



Ep9? Probably the best of the set. But which equates to world destroying ability how.



Even if I generously grant it'll take a tacnuke to scorch Fate's hands, that equates to world destroying ability how.



Ironically, probably the kitty came closest to using it as the Al-Hazredians intended - a convenient tool to grant wishes.

Which equates to world-destroying ability how. That's the problem with them. Yes, they are pretty impressive, but as shown they just aren't destroying the world. Either there is something funny w/ the way they'll do so (misunderstanding of context on our part), or the characters are ... wrong.



If they are Jewel Seed-like (by like, I of course do not count a visual similarity), I'll be sorely disappointed in what that means for the real Jewel seed.
Individually, the effects probably weren't all that impressive, but the TSAB didn't get concerned until Nanoha and Fate destablized the seed and set off a dimensional disturbance.

May not seem like a big deal, but when the fabric of spacetime is 'disturbed'... "Bad Things" happen. And if you happen to maybe RIP the fabric. Well, things that exist IN the spacetime that ripped don't fare all too well.

I would rather not have the fabric of space rip while I'm occupying it, it does rather unpleasant things to the atomic structure of my body, like subject it to irregular physical stresses the likes of which you find at the center of the sun. And that really HURRRRTS!
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Old 2008-03-05, 03:48   Link #751
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghazghkull View Post
Question though, if such things are illegal, why are not Graf Eisen and Laevaetien no illegal, although they could just as easily do what I wanted my device to do, if not worse? I mean sure I could put a whole through a person, but what's that compared to a sword or a sledge hammer? :3

I mean Vita would just have to go in and shatter the shield, and then Signum goes in for the kill :3

Granted it's not their character, but that's the essence of what I want to achieve with my device.
Technically, because GE is technically pseudomatter.

The rationale behind the law isn't really that well thought out really. Just as one simple example, what is Arcenciel if not a weapon that can be operated by a child?

Still, it is a brilliant plot device - it keeps logical weapons like high velocity bullets out of the picture. Just understand that Midchildrans are very very brainwashed and don't really see the illogic and hypocrisies of their policy, and you'll do fine.
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Old 2008-03-05, 03:53   Link #752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Technically, because GE is technically pseudomatter.

The rationale behind the law isn't really that well thought out really. Just as one simple example, what is Arcenciel if not a weapon that can be operated by a child?

Still, it is a brilliant plot device - it keeps logical weapons like high velocity bullets out of the picture. Just understand that Midchildrans are very very brainwashed and don't really see the illogic and hypocrisies of their policy, and you'll do fine.
*Grins evilly* Hmm...then I can possibly work in...XD

Thank you for the tip off. My hat's off to you :3
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Old 2008-03-05, 04:02   Link #753
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We only had some nice long arguments about it two weeks ago...
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Old 2008-03-05, 04:34   Link #754
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Don't remind me. It took ages of busting to get you to nerf the max velocity to 850m/s from 2km/s. *sighs*

Regarding physical weapons, current OC understanding (this ain't quite the right word, but it's the best I can come up with atm) is that usage of slug throwers is kept to either criminals or the OFM, who are TSAB black ops (Delta Force/SEALs/ODST/The Unit/Mutter-effing Halo) and have to lock up their guns when not on mission/training. Although the way Alpha is heading, I wouldn't be surprised if the OFM lost their guns at the end of things...
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Old 2008-03-05, 04:39   Link #755
Keroko
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Originally Posted by XenahortCharybdis View Post
It would have been more fun they had left it to the last minute, instead of deciding it with a few minutes left to go, though. It was anticlimatic.
True, that was rather anti-climatic.

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Originally Posted by XenahortCharybdis View Post
Now, where did Jail get those from, eh? I thought Precia, like, disappeared into the some dimensional void or something...or was she not carrying the thing with her?
Not all of them, besides, the Jewel Seeds we saw in Nanoha weren't all the Jewel Seeds in existance, concidering the TSAB already knew about them. Jail probably got them from his sponsors.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
But they were clearly activated and running.
A car can be activated and running, but it takes a person to conciously hit the gas pedal before it reaches 200 km/h.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
They are having a bad earthquake. Admittedly, it is pretty bad for a bunch of tiny seeds, but it isn't planet destroying.

The actual word used in the Japanese was 崩壊, which means "collapse", "breakdown" or "decay". It is actually a pretty broad term that can mean far more than annihilate.
That only makes it worse. Remember, Lindy talked about 'the adjacent world' most likely she was talking about the dimensions, which would make sense with the word 'collapse' meaning that the entire dimension in question collapsed, or multiple dimensions in this case.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Thus, you admit that you have absolutely no first-hand evidence for determining how bad it'll actually be .
Nor do you have any first hand knowledge for determing it wouldn't. On the other hand, I have the entire cast behind me supporting my case, whereas you have only theories with no base or even support. Just because the world wasn't destroyed doesn't mean it wouldn't have been, and the cast supports my view that it would have.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Fine. Does it look like 84 (or even 840) of those tiny "fragments" put together could "completely annihilate" worlds.
More then that, but yes.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
IIRC, the place they are guarding is auctioning away Lost Logia. Since RF6 is guarding the place, it is clear that at least some Lost Logia are cleared for sale.
*double checks* Yes, you're right. They are talking about legal Lost Logia.

This means that you were right that not all Lost Logia are dangerous. It also helps explain some things I was wondering about, like why Hayate was allowed to fly around with a Lost Logia.

It does not, however, make the Jewel Seeds harmless. In fact, it helps debunk your theory that the characters were talking about the destroyed worlds out of paranoia. Obviously they are very much aware on how powerfull various types of Lost Logia are, which means that if they say Jewel Seeds can destroy the world, they can.
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Old 2008-03-05, 04:41   Link #756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Don't remind me. It took ages of busting to get you to nerf the max velocity to 850m/s from 2km/s. *sighs*

Regarding physical weapons, current OC understanding (this ain't quite the right word, but it's the best I can come up with atm) is that usage of slug throwers is kept to either criminals or the OFM, who are TSAB black ops (Delta Force/SEALs/ODST/The Unit/Mutter-effing Halo) and have to lock up their guns when not on mission/training. Although the way Alpha is heading, I wouldn't be surprised if the OFM lost their guns at the end of things...
Mind you I'm asking on a general scale, basically in accordance to the fluff that the series itself has provided, and from the sounds of things, the way I'd like to have him combat is illegal by TSAB laws, which therefore limits the amount of physical damage down to mostly just burns from direct contact, which therefore means to actually kill someone would require a proxy, such as a falling piece of masonry, or other such rubble.

Am I correct?
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Old 2008-03-05, 04:46   Link #757
Keroko
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Canonically, magic does have the abillity to kill. However, unlike real bullets they can be put to a 'stun' or 'rubber bullet' setting, so to say.
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Old 2008-03-05, 05:16   Link #758
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
A car can be activated and running, but it takes a person to conciously hit the gas pedal before it reaches 200 km/h.
Even when someone is pushing on the gas (Precia) to the point of overload ... well, the earthquake was impressive, but crediting the observed performance with the capacity for the destruction of the world (much less dimension) seems very ... optimistic.

Quote:
That only makes it worse. Remember, Lindy talked about 'the adjacent world' most likely she was talking about the dimensions, which would make sense with the word 'collapse' meaning that the entire dimension in question collapsed, or multiple dimensions in this case.
Great, now entire universes collapsed in your mind, in the face of the pictures, which show nowhere near the amount of catacylsm needed to collapse an entire universe in a reasonable timeframe.

Quote:
Nor do you have any first hand knowledge for determing it wouldn't. On the other hand, I have the entire cast behind me supporting my case, whereas you have only theories with no base or even support. Just because the world wasn't destroyed doesn't mean it wouldn't have been, and the cast supports my view that it would have.
You have about three characters, two of which are from uncertain accreditation of the TSAB (curse StrikerS for this - we could have pretended they somehow made it work before that), and the third is all of 9 years old, speaking in an unknown context (we can't even decide whether they meant a universe, a planet, or a civilization when they blubbered sekai ...), with them having an unknown amount of knowledge about the particular Lost Logia involved ... some strong backup you have there when faced against the very consistent visible evidence of it falling far short.

Either there's something funny with dimensional dislocations (such as, they are ridiculously easy), and thus there's a contextual misunderstanding on our part, or else...

Quote:
More then that, but yes.
What PART of those things look like they can destroy worlds even with a million of them put together...
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Old 2008-03-05, 05:20   Link #759
Nightengale
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Speaking of dimensional yada yadas, what does the event in the end of S1 where Yuuno cannot return to Mid-childa for a few months due to some sort of dimensional 'whatizit' consider itself to be anyway? Instability?

If dimension dislocation and instability runs in the same veins, doesn't that pretty much just mean the destruction of highways that connect worlds?
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Old 2008-03-05, 05:37   Link #760
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
Speaking of dimensional yada yadas, what does the event in the end of S1 where Yuuno cannot return to Mid-childa for a few months due to some sort of dimensional 'whatizit' consider itself to be anyway? Instability?

If dimension dislocation and instability runs in the same veins, doesn't that pretty much just mean the destruction of highways that connect worlds?
I guess something like planetary movement. There were times it gonna take longer for someone to go to mars, depending on its orbital position.
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