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Old 2008-03-05, 10:18   Link #781
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Not true, Precia had only started to activate them shortly before Lindy arived and supressed them.
Definitely untrue. They could tell that Precia was going for a bousou hatsudou at the very beginning of Ep12, and Lindy only came near the end. The strength of vibration was not even increasing in any obvious way throughout the period

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The description may be qualitative, but that does not change the fact that Lindy still said that many worlds collapsed. In a qualitative description, this ranks as a 'high dimensional dislocation' that did destroy several worlds.
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Please don't put words in my mouth. I never agreed that they don't look like they could. Don't twist my words.
I was under the assumption that if you truly believed the visuals showed otherwise, you would have objected on that point instead of appealing to authority.
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Old 2008-03-05, 10:43   Link #782
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Look at my analysis of the same passages and see if it makes sense to you.
I would if I could, but I cannot reach your page or your site right now. Are you sure it's up and running properly?
One thing, can you get another person who knows Japanese to back you up on your interpetation of the dialog? I just want to make sure you did not unconciously bias it in favor of your stance.

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You've just rephrased the whole forest fire thing, while ignoring the consequences of any analogy of this type.
The main point of my analogy is you're accusing Chrono, Lindy and the rest of the Asura's crew of not knowing how to do their jobs. That, I consider rather offensive. I look forward to seeing you back up that accusation, once I can read your page.
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Old 2008-03-05, 11:24   Link #783
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
I would if I could, but I cannot reach your page or your site right now. Are you sure it's up and running properly?
All I know is that I can reach it, and when I punched up other pages previously, ATC has no trouble going to them. Have you tried heading there via the index page - maybe that'll work.

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One thing, can you get another person who knows Japanese to back you up on your interpetation of the dialog? I just want to make sure you did not unconciously bias it in favor of your stance.
Well, since it is on the webpage, I suppose that anyone that really has an opinion could discuss it. If anything the biggest problem is that it is too stiff, because I'm emphasizing on catching every last piece of meaning even at the cost of prose - the same trend I use when translating anything. Anyway, since you can't read it I guess I'll dump the text out:
Spoiler:
Conclusion: In conclusion, the dialogue does not provide any real guidance as to the power of the Lost Logia as long as a dislocation of unknown size can be created. While a dislocation is not good news, the dialogue clearly says nothing explicit about it being world ending. That, when combined with the fact that everything that occurred can be handled by single mages, along with the fact that the High Council seems willing to allow Scarlietti to "steal" the Jewel Seeds for his Gadgets, leads to the inevitable conclusion that Jewel Seeds are not all that powerful.

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The main point of my analogy is you're accusing Chrono, Lindy and the rest of the Asura's crew of not knowing how to do their jobs. That, I consider rather offensive. I look forward to seeing you back up that accusation, once I can read your page.
Actually, I've switched my axis of attack already. Now I had re-surveyed the positions and calculated that they are not in my way, I don't have to lawnmower them.
Spoiler for Space:
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Old 2008-03-05, 11:58   Link #784
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Do we know what a dimensional dislocation entails? Perhaps it severs connections between the dimension and others, meaning its no longer accessible through teleportation tech and magic. That would be bad from the TSAB point of view but not necessarily catastrophic.
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Old 2008-03-05, 12:56   Link #785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Do we know what a dimensional dislocation entails? Perhaps it severs connections between the dimension and others, meaning its no longer accessible through teleportation tech and magic. That would be bad from the TSAB point of view but not necessarily catastrophic.
I don't think they ever really elaborated too much on what a dislocation does, but I think it's safe to say some of it's destructive capabilities are akin to the Omega Particles from Star Trek in some sense.

It is very possible that it'll rip the very fabric of some dimensions rendering the areas useless, including the dimension it initially formed in. Well that's my theory, since it seems to be a rip in reality, that and the word 'dislocation' gives me other ideas.

Another idea is that it literally relocates the world/planet the dislocation occurred, along with any neighboring dimensions. Like I said though, it's just a theory at this point.
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Old 2008-03-05, 13:00   Link #786
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, I've switched my axis of attack already. Now I had re-surveyed the positions and calculated that they are not in my way, I don't have to lawnmower them.

However, thanks to StrikerS, it is by now a statistical average that TSAB people, on average, just aren't very good. I don't think anybody on this board seriously debates this anymore. I just don't know why people that completely agree the TSAB don't have the first clue about tactics suddenly insist they must be infallible experts on Lost Logia.
Correction: Competency in Science = Competency in Tactics is as good as saying Competence in Cooking = Competence in Smoking Pot, and therefore does not compute at all in any logical sense.

They are two independent abilities.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Further, even if it were not for that, Lost Logia is not very well understood by the TSAB. And even if it were an understood subject, Lost Logia will be the equivalent of very advanced engineering and even granting there's a specialist somewhere at Fleet HQ that has intricate knowledge about a particular type of Lost Logia, realism actually dictates that the frontline staff won't have that technical knowledge. Is it really so "offensive" to suggest that they might not know everything? It is certainly a lot less offensive than the conclusion that they don't know tactics, since basic tactics should be part of every officer's repertoire.
The TSAB, however, obviously has a information dissemination network, and I'm very sure that they have the common sense to go look up their network for information on their current quarry, especially if it's something potentially hairy like a Lost Logia. If they don't do that, they not only fail as an Army, or a Peacekeeping Force, they fail as people who actually care.
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Old 2008-03-05, 18:12   Link #787
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I'll get meta for a second.

Nobody here is arguing that the writers intended for the TSAB to be a moronic, useless military organization. Nanoha does plenty of things in Strikers that are, from the perspective of someone familiar with the functioning of a modern fighting military, dumb as hell. Yet Nanoha isn't -supposed- to be lousy at her job; she's supposed to be freakishly dedicated and notably good at it, from her reputation and the reactions of the other characters. The shortcoming isn't something the writers intended to write into the show; it's an artifact of the writers themselves not knowing anything about any militaries besides the useless rump of the JSDF, and not even a whole lot about that. Within the context of Strikers, Nanoha is a competent officer and an excellent trainer; the defect is that said context is warped pretty far from reality, in ways that it shouldn't be, and in ways that can only be accounted for by the shortcomings of the writers.

Lost Logia work differently. There are no real magical devices with which they may be compared. We can't judge the context in relation to reality because there's no correspondence whatsoever. Thus, so long as the show's internally consistent, there's no reason to carry over an "idiot judgment" from one category to the other - characters can have no clue about modern military management (because the writers had no clue), yet be totally on the ball when it comes to Lost Logia (because everything that the writers know about the topic is correct by definition, within the context of the show.)

Now, if the writers were contradicting themselves horribly, that would be different. If they could track Nanoha down because she had some sealed Jewel Seeds, but they couldn't track Fate or Precia the same way, that would be an example of a contradiction. We really don't have any of those, however - the Lost Logia behave the way the characters in the show expect them to behave, and when they behave differently, the characters notice and are surprised/shocked/you get the idea.

That doesn't mean that the writers sat down before putting pen to paper on Nanoha and talked about the capabilities of the category of Lost Logia. In fact, in my experience, this is probably not the case; I've had situations before where I've constructed a fairly elaborate explanation for weirdness in a show, had the opportunity to ask the writers about whether it was a correct model of their thinking on the topic, and gotten back a polite equivalent of "duh, we did it 'cause it looked cool?" Specifically, I'm almost certain that things like the structure of the TSAB's armed forces, or the function of unison devices, or Belka anything, hadn't even been considered when Nanoha season 1 went into production. Just not how they do this sort of thing, more's the pity... Which of course means that it all gets cobbled together on the fly.

On the other hand, if you keep in mind that Nanoha was, initially, a joke show on the same level as Komugi, it's doing pretty damned good. Sure, it's not hardcore science fiction, but it's a long way from the initial concept of "magical girl spinoff of an obscure erotic game", now isn't it? ;p
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Old 2008-03-05, 19:07   Link #788
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XenahortCharybdis View Post
Correction: Competency in Science = Competency in Tactics is as good as saying Competence in Cooking = Competence in Smoking Pot, and therefore does not compute at all in any logical sense.

They are two independent abilities.
Actually, an understanding of Lost Logia will fall into Engineering.

Quote:
The TSAB, however, obviously has a information dissemination network, and I'm very sure that they have the common sense to go look up their network for information on their current quarry, especially if it's something potentially hairy like a Lost Logia. If they don't do that, they not only fail as an Army, or a Peacekeeping Force, they fail as people who actually care.
If they actually cared about their profession, their tactics and moral-psychological training won't be in such a pathetic state.

As for their "information dissemination network", you'll notice that in the BoD incident, any small scrap of information found is entirely due to them just happening to have a personal friend in Yunno. They don't even seem to have regular librarians for searching. Wonderful "information dissemination network" there! And of all the scraps of information found, amazingly, there is not one scrap of quantitative data (for the Cradle incident, they did a little better, managing to scrap up a very incomplete map (yeah, it is nice to know where the Control room and the reactor is, now can we have the rest of the ship's corridors stenciled in?) Yes, they just know everything there is to know about Lost Logia, all right...

It is obvious that you and ADV are still looking at this from the Literary point of view. However, if you are to do that, you'll have to acknowledge that in the context of the show, even they admit they don't really know a whole lot about Lost Logia*. Which makes sense because Lost Logia are obviously much more advanced magitech than items in Midchildran service. But it does wreak havoc on attempts to use them as unimpeachable authorities.

From a SoD point of view (a POV I desperately tried to avoid when watching MGLN, but Ep17 and onwards was just too much), it is scary to think how weak their knowledge of Lost Logia really is. When even these people admit they now very little...

*The line where they say they don't know the method of usage is very important. In the real world, understanding of "machinery" is roughly on three levels - the operator, the technician, and the engineer, the first requiring the least understanding of its working principles and performance. When they admit they aren't even on Level 1...

But whether they were going to eat the world or not, it was nice that the TSAB (or rather one Captain) did its best to help anyway. Much better than in the next arc, when we were 5 minutes from being Arced because of inadequate deployment of forces... Isn't that effort enough? Why does everyone insist they have to be engineers?
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Old 2008-03-05, 23:45   Link #789
Jimmy C
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Ark, you've made your point. I'm conceeding this one. We'll see next time.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
That should be a start. Anyway, they've admitted that they can't calculate the actual damage, so maybe we shouldn't be blind trusting their pronouncements...
Look, I know you don't think highly of the Bureau's abilities, but even you should have been able to equate that with "unimaginable". As in "you DO NOT want to add these numbers". But since it fits you vision of Bureau personnel being morons, go ahead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
In the real world, understanding of "machinery" is roughly on three levels - the operator, the technician, and the engineer, the first requiring the least understanding of its working principles and performance.
That nice ladder does not apply when technical information on said machinery is not available, in any way. For example, when an 18th-century farmer digs up flying machine, with no instruction manual and no technical documentation. Even the best engineers of that age wouldn't be on Level-1 in that case. That's the Bureau's situation with regards to Lost Logia. Do you think they are idiots because of that? Do you think our best people could do better?
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Old 2008-03-06, 01:07   Link #790
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Ark, you've made your point. I'm conceeding this one. We'll see next time.

Look, I know you don't think highly of the Bureau's abilities, but even you should have been able to equate that with "unimaginable". As in "you DO NOT want to add these numbers". But since it fits you vision of Bureau personnel being morons, go ahead.

That nice ladder does not apply when technical information on said machinery is not available, in any way. For example, when an 18th-century farmer digs up flying machine, with no instruction manual and no technical documentation. Even the best engineers of that age wouldn't be on Level-1 in that case. That's the Bureau's situation with regards to Lost Logia.
Very true. Did you notice that I said it "made sense" they didn't know much about Lost Logia? This is not to make them sound like morons, or idiots, just being matter of fact. It is NO INSULT to say that they don't know much about it. In fact that is the story's setup if you want to talk literary.

The only problem with this is to those who insist on using them as unimpeachable authorities. But as it turns out it doesn't really matter if they are or not in this context. Maybe it is not me that's in a state of denial
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Old 2008-03-06, 03:27   Link #791
XenahortCharybdis
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Very true. Did you notice that I said it "made sense" they didn't know much about Lost Logia? This is not to make them sound like morons, or idiots, just being matter of fact. It is NO INSULT to say that they don't know much about it. In fact that is the story's setup if you want to talk literary.

The only problem with this is to those who insist on using them as unimpeachable authorities. But as it turns out it doesn't really matter if they are or not in this context. Maybe it is not me that's in a state of denial
If that was the only problem, then this has been a waste of the 2 minutes it took me in total to type those replies.

One last shot at you, though.

Engineering falls under Physics and Maths (which are themselves related). Physics falls under Applied Science. Therefore Engineering itself in a way falls under Science too

You're not in denial, that title belongs to Chaos...nevermind.
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Old 2008-03-06, 05:08   Link #792
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Random post for the IRC...

Resonance as I'm talking of deals with adding energy to waveforms.

Say you have two waves, one with a +4 crest, and -4 trough, and then another with a +3 crest, and -3 trough.

When they two waves interact in a compatable fashon, resonance occures. Depending on the phase of the interaction, you could have two effects.

1 - destructive resonance. The trough of the 3 wave meets with the crest of the 4 wave, resulting in a new wave energy of +1 -1.

2 - constructive resonance. Like above, only the crest of the 3 wave meets the crest of the 4 wave, and vice versa the troughs. The result is the waves synch up and add together. Creating +7 -7 wave.

It's a pretty quick term of what I'm trying to say, but here's the wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonance


Anyway, resonance can be quite powerful. When working with sound waves, a good example of constructive resonance is an opera singer shattering glass with their voice. What happens is that the glass's natural vibration frequency matches up with the frequency of the singer's voice. The resulting constructive resonance builds vibration energy in the glass until it reaches a physical limitation of the mateiral, and breaks.
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Old 2008-03-06, 06:59   Link #793
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It is important for people not to get overenthusiastic about Resonance:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...h_Science.html

BTW, I'm throwing material onto my new site. How many people other than JimmyC are having trouble accessing it?
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Old 2008-03-06, 18:07   Link #794
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They need to update their info on the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. Read the Wiki info that coincides with that in my article.

Oh by the way Arc, that was just to throw something at them about Unisons for a covnersation in the IRC. My thought is that the Unisons may have some kind of constructive resonance with the user's magic that increases the effective power, without actually, well, increasing power outright. It's complicated, but it was something I tossed in.



Anywho, something interesting. I was at WalMart earlier... Looking at some airsoft rifles.

I noted one that looked like a shotgun, using a simple spring action mechanism fires its rounds at 106 m/s. (It was labeled on the box.) Another one, an A17 (Airsoft version of an M-4 Carbine), which was electric, fires rounds at 97 m/s.


In fact, I'm double checking. The Shotgun is... This... Fires its BBs at 350 f/s. (106.68 m/s)
The Rifle is... this and fires 262 F/s (79.6 m/s... so I got that one backwards in my memory.)

Now that REALLY makes me irritated. Magic ATTACKS are as slow, or slower than the stuff coming out of TOYS!


But at the same time, it gives me an idea.
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Old 2008-03-06, 19:15   Link #795
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
They need to update their info on the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. Read the Wiki info that coincides with that in my article.
There isn't anything extraordinary about resonance as ark noted. The total energy is proportional to the square of the amplitude and the energy has to come from somewhere.

If you really want to use Wikipedia:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoma Narrows Bridge - Wikipedia
In the case of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, this mode was negatively damped (or had positive feedback), meaning meaning it increased in amplitude with each cycle because the wind pumped in more energy than the flexing of the structure dissipated.
The oscillation in the bridge was self-induced (torsional flutter), the wind supplying the power, and the motion supplying the power-tapping mechanism.
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Old 2008-03-06, 19:54   Link #796
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The problem is people here don't even know the context I was speaking of unless they were in IRC last night, so don't jump to conclusions now. I didn't introduce anything wild, just that constructive resonance may be one of the things a unison device does to improve user power. (Or rather both make the user utilize their power more effectively and add on their own power to the mix. ) It would explain compatability issues if Unisons produced certain frequencies that only get the best effect if they resonate constructively. Incompatabilities would occure as the Unison's pattern gets more and more out of phase or frequency with the user until it actually starts to appraoch destructive resonance and actually weakens a mage.


Let me break down how this may work.

The Mage and the Unison both have distinct magical energy of their own. I'll mark the mage as 5 and the Unison as 5. Equal magic apeice... These are their normal peak magical energy amplitude values.

Now, first assumption of a unison is that it merges and adds power/ability equal to itself to its master mage.

But the issue of compatability and the fact that we don't see them actually have distinct instance of power boosting except for Agito with Signum.

It could be based of frequency and phase resonance. And here's how.

If you apply a moderately compatable Mage to a Unison, say Vita and Rein, the waveforms don't match up all to well, but they still occaisionally have complementary peaks. Allowing a slight increase in power here and there with added abilities coming from the extra mind working from the same space and vantage as the actual mage. In this case, the 5 and 5 power combine to be something like 6 or 7.

If you take a more incompatable mage, such as Zest and Agito. (I would argue Zest is far stronger in his full drive without Agito mucking him up, but he used her because his condition was so absolutely shitty that full power was dangerous.) In this case, the incompatability coming from being out of frequency, and out of phase actually results in destructive resonance, in which Zest actually loses power by being unisoned. (Again, they unison more because Zest's condition is but SHIT. And in Unison, it would be more Agito's power that did the work.
They're slightly incompatable, but both are Belkan, so they still work. And what you get is 5 and 5 coming out to 5 still, or even 4.5 or 4.

Then you get totally incompatable, where the frequency and phase are so bad it's worthless. 5 and 5 cancel out and make 1 or 0.

But take an almost perfect, or even a perfect unison compatability match like Agito and Signum. The phase and frequency line up nicely and nearly all the peaks match up, and the result is 5 and 5 make 10. You get maximum unison performance that it just seems that you get this monster power boost in one mage, with the combined skill and awareness of two mages.
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Old 2008-03-06, 21:00   Link #797
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Wouldn't that be more analogical to Constructive Interference?
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Old 2008-03-06, 22:14   Link #798
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You're right... how'd I get that mixed up with Resonance?
*Scratches head...*

I know it well enough at least... Even if I screw up the wording sometimes.
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Old 2008-03-07, 06:38   Link #799
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post

Now that REALLY makes me irritated. Magic ATTACKS are as slow, or slower than the stuff coming out of TOYS!

FFS, we are talking about anime, and you try to bring RL logic and rules in an anime!

Are laser instantaneous in Star Wars? Would Han Solo and Chewbacca be able to dodge shots from stormtroopers if it was the case? Would Luke's X-wing can do it against a squadron of Tie fighters? No! But they do it anyway for the sake of rule of cool. And how come Arnie was able to stand still after the Predator's self-destruction? Have we seen anyone moaning about it?
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Old 2008-03-07, 09:20   Link #800
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FFS, we are talking about anime, and you try to bring RL logic and rules in an anime!

Are laser instantaneous in Star Wars? Would Han Solo and Chewbacca be able to dodge shots from stormtroopers if it was the case? Would Luke's X-wing can do it against a squadron of Tie fighters? No! But they do it anyway for the sake of rule of cool. And how come Arnie was able to stand still after the Predator's self-destruction? Have we seen anyone moaning about it?
*Slaps Sheba with a fish.*

Don't give ME trout!

I will moan about it as I see fit!

There's suspension of disbelief, and then there's insanely silly. (Lasers in Star Wars aren't actually lasers by the way.) When you've got pop guns that shoot faster toy bullets than 99% of all magic attacks, how in heck do magic users expect to hit anything. I mean, we've got mach one capable flight mages, and then attacks that are about as fast as a football being thrown down field. Obviously the easiest form of attack is to fly over targets and drop magic spheres which explode! Not only can you out run their counter attacks, but anyone chasing you can't hit you because they're flying faster than their own attack, and it'll just slam right back in their face after it hits air ressistance.

The more flaws I discover, the more insult to simple COMPETENCY I discover. It's getting to the point where I'm ready to declare it as bad as Dragon War. You can't get much worse than Dragon War when it comes to insult to competency.
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