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Old 2008-03-09, 12:32   Link #841
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Wouldn't that usually be called a shield. Stopping cold and gases is a matter of stopping low velocity objects (in atmosphere, cold and heat is mostly transmitted by conduction and convection, both relatively low velocity), as opposed to stopping something capable of crossing the field space in a fraction of a second.
I believe Signum already showed us that fastmoving projectiles can be stopped with a Field as well. True, they were magical projectiles, but projectiles nonetheless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
ROFTLMAO. Arisa and Suzuka were enormously easy detections in the kekkai. They were pretty much the only two unidentified lifeforms, which means Bardiche picked them up out of a noise level of roughly zero. How that translates to picking up tiny supersonic bullets is difficult to imagine.
he only mass carying object withing the area moving at supersonic speed perhaps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, Nanoha DBing Vita is one of the slower examples of high powered beam speed - so many seconds elapsed that it was rated at only 16m/s. Vice's sniper rifle had a more decent velocity though.
Which begs the question, why didn't Vita simply dodge it? If it was so slow moving surely she would have been able to dodge. This is yet another example that the speed witnessed on the timer =/= actual speed of the beam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Effective Range is partially a function of accuracy. Bullet velocity being another factor.
Now it's 'effective' range all of a sudden? Range in this case is how much space the beam can cross. I see no reason why scopes and stocks increase this.

Also, with the use of mental scopes, you can already eliminate one of the advantages of a rifle, leaving you with the stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Creator's intent is almost useless, especially in situations where they hadn't thought about it. Even if you catch them in an interview and they quick-wit up a semi-usable answer, it is very doubtful that's what they thought when they made it. So what is canon, is it their intention as they drew the slides or their retroactive thoughts during a post-production interview? Endless debates here alone for no result.

Obviously, what happened is that some rounds do travel faster than others, but it will be a rare one indeed that even has the speed of a pistol bullet.
So if we see people dodging or blocking bullets in anime, or if we see the bullets flying, that automatically means that the bullets are going slower then usual?
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Old 2008-03-09, 12:47   Link #842
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I believe Signum already showed us that fastmoving projectiles can be stopped with a Field as well. True, they were magical projectiles, but projectiles nonetheless.
Panzergeist? That'll be a very hard field that bears little resemblance to a BJ. Signum was basically a statue when it was activated.

Quote:
he only mass carying object withing the area moving at supersonic speed perhaps?
They are small, they don't emit even the slightest of magical waves... and so on. And if it detects say a rifle round at 300m (very optimistic), it'll have 1/3rd of a second to complete vector calculation, calculate the correct setting for the field, adjust the magic ... a very busy 1/3rd of a second indeed!

Quote:
Which begs the question, why didn't Vita simply dodge it? If it was so slow moving surely she would have been able to dodge. This is yet another example that the speed witnessed on the timer =/= actual speed of the beam.
Why didn't Quattro or Dieci at least try an evasive maneuver while Nanoha and Fate were charging? Psychologically, she's so shocked that Nanoha even attempted the shot she couldn't move.

Quote:
Now it's 'effective' range all of a sudden? Range in this case is how much space the beam can cross. I see no reason why scopes and stocks increase this.
Most of the time, when people refer to range, they refer to the effective range. When you look at a RPG-7's "range", most of the time they tell you 300 or 500m, even though the round itself self destructs at 920m.

Quote:
Also, with the use of mental scopes, you can already eliminate one of the advantages of a rifle, leaving you with the stock.
There we still go. Stabilization is important in long shoots, unless you plan to burn your energy with unchoked shotgun blasts.

Quote:
So if we see people dodging or blocking bullets in anime, or if we see the bullets flying, that automatically means that the bullets are going slower then usual?
Show me scene, show you answer. Sometimes, time compression is a valid answer - for example, when that missile detonated in uber slow motion in Behind Enemy Lines. One shouldn't just assume it to get out of a slow speed, though.

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Old 2008-03-09, 13:24   Link #843
Jimmy C
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While this is very interesting, can we get back to the point?
Is there any indication of magical defense construction that can make conventional weapons ineffective in Nanoha? Tshouryuu thinks there has to be in order for the ban to be practical.?
I hadn't thought of that while we were discussing the conditions that could make the ban possible.
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Old 2008-03-09, 14:45   Link #844
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Something I suggested to go with shour's comments, but I don't think made it into the conversation as a whole, was that jacket defense fields and barriers reacted smartly.

I'm thinking in terms of experimental Carbon Ballistic Cloth or some kind of carbon buckyball ballistic gel (which I can't find anywhere, but a conversation I had with someone.)

I think it's the carbon buckyball gel I'm thinking of.
Anyway, normally it's gel-like and sealed in packets.

***Pause

I found the post... it was on spacebattles... and it was crystle gel lattice suspended in a liquid.

Quote:
For your armor problems there's actually a simple solution. Carbon ballistic cloth (hereafter referred to as CBC)

Basically, take carbon nanotubes (buckytubes) and make a very thight-weave fabric with them. Very strong stuff (theoretically) can be made while at the same time being flexible. For added stopping power back the CBC with a crystal structure suspended in a liquid (something like this). When hit with kinetic energy the crystals lock up, making it rigid. Otherwise its flexible (this stuff is currently in development. Sadly I don't have any links, if someone could provide them I'd be grateful). As an added bonus, carbon can take a substantial amount of heat, which would make it capable of taking charged particle beams to some extent.

Alternatively you could use a form of CBC on the joins, with armor plates where you don't need motion. Would probably provide better protection than just CBC alone, and allow the strength augmentation. Having CBC with plate armor also allows for you to more easily establish the desired escape segments.
What I'm suggesting is that the field and barrier acts on par with the crystal gel suggested by that Spacebattles poster. Normally it's soft and moves freely, but an impact, such as a bullet or high force blunt impact compress the field and trigger the barrier. (Who says the barrier's the ouside?)
At this point it becomes rigid to prevent impact directly to the wearer as much as possible.

Smart-Jacket barrier jacket. The jacket iself could even be made of carbon nanotube-like materials in the fabric to further increase the effect.
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Old 2008-03-09, 14:58   Link #845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Panzergeist? That'll be a very hard field that bears little resemblance to a BJ. Signum was basically a statue when it was activated.
I was unaware that 'did not move' means 'unable to move at all' these days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
They are small, they don't emit even the slightest of magical waves... and so on. And if it detects say a rifle round at 300m (very optimistic), it'll have 1/3rd of a second to complete vector calculation, calculate the correct setting for the field, adjust the magic ... a very busy 1/3rd of a second indeed!
You have to remember it's a computer, not a human being.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Why didn't Quattro or Dieci at least try an evasive maneuver while Nanoha and Fate were charging? Psychologically, she's so shocked that Nanoha even attempted the shot she couldn't move.
Bull, according to your logic there was plenty of time to recover from her shock after she fired and move, and yet she didn't. She didn't even put up a defensive measure, despite being a combat veteran. Why? Because she didn't have the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Most of the time, when people refer to range, they refer to the effective range. When you look at a RPG-7's "range", most of the time they tell you 300 or 500m, even though the round itself self destructs at 920m.

There we still go. Stabilization is important in long shoots, unless you plan to burn your energy with unchoked shotgun blasts.
Yes, but the scope is still not an advantage of the rifle, as any device has one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Show me scene, show you answer. Sometimes, time compression is a valid answer - for example, when that missile detonated in uber slow motion in Behind Enemy Lines. One shouldn't just assume it to get out of a slow speed, though.
So if you understand that, why do you still deny that much of the combat animations in Nanoha are slowed down for dramatic effect, but not representative of the rounds actuall speed?

For example, in A's 4, we see Chrono firing his Stinger Blade Execution Shift, and the projectiles move at a slow pace. As soon as Zafira raises his shield those very same projectiles suddenly hit the shield with what in anime standards is bullet speed. Did they accelerate to that speed in 1 second? No, they always were that fast, the animation was simply slowed for effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
While this is very interesting, can we get back to the point?
Is there any indication of magical defense construction that can make conventional weapons ineffective in Nanoha? Tshouryuu thinks there has to be in order for the ban to be practical.?
I hadn't thought of that while we were discussing the conditions that could make the ban possible.
My logic is that if a barrier jacket can protect a mage from crashing through five layers of concrete, it can sure as hell stop a bullet. The mage was larger, and far less designed to pierce, and yet smashed through five layers of concrete and got out unscratched. I haven't seen a bullet acomplish the same feat.
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Old 2008-03-09, 15:10   Link #846
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I wouldn't say 'unscratched'. Jacket or no, she was down long enough that Yuuno managed to hop the distance to check on her. But still, surviving impact through five layers of Steel Reinforced Concrete in an office building is on the order of magnitude of a bunker buster bomb.

What about an explosive reactive effect? I can see that blasting the concrete...

The other problem I'm still concerned about myself is accelleration. The same scene she goes through all that concrete is one where Signum struck we with enough force to go from 0 relative, to enough speed to cross the office building's height in a second, back down to 0 after impact.

Internal organs turn to mush there when the outside of the body tries to accellerate faster than maybe fifteen Gs. Conversation with shour suggested some kind of G suppression,diffusion, or magical inertial damping. But if that were perfect, it would be better to have her BOUNCE off the building, unless it fails under uncontrolled circumstances.
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Old 2008-03-09, 15:18   Link #847
Keroko
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With unscratched I meant 'no apparent injury' heck, it doesn't even seem to limit her movements after she dusted herself of and went back into the fray. Sure getting knocked through that building rattled her up, jacket or no, but with that kind of force force any normal person would have gone splat against the roof.
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Old 2008-03-09, 15:34   Link #848
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Use the correct terms then, or you give the opposition ammunition! Arc don't need more ammo!
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Old 2008-03-09, 15:44   Link #849
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unscratched. Not a scratch on the body. I thought it'd be obvious. *shrug*
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Old 2008-03-09, 19:15   Link #850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I was unaware that 'did not move' means 'unable to move at all' these days.
Generally, if you can defend and maneuver, that's what you'll do.

Quote:
You have to remember it's a computer, not a human being.
How does being a computer grant it instant calculating speed?

Quote:
Bull, according to your logic there was plenty of time to recover from her shock after she fired and move, and yet she didn't. She didn't even put up a defensive measure, despite being a combat veteran. Why? Because she didn't have the time.
Despite being a combat veteran, she has never seen a 100m shot. It is obvious she's shocked all the way through.

Quote:
Yes, but the scope is still not an advantage of the rifle, as any device has one.
Actually, barrel alignment is still more ergonomically intuitive then off axis.

Quote:
So if you understand that, why do you still deny that much of the combat animations in Nanoha are slowed down for dramatic effect, but not representative of the rounds actuall speed?
The point is that you must have a time reference before you can claim time compression.

Technically, when you claim a compression, you are actually throwing a small piece of evidence away. Thus, your theory will automatically be inferior to any theory that keeps it. Be extra careful when the conclusion gained by including time compression just happens to be what you wish.

Quote:
For example, in A's 4, we see Chrono firing his Stinger Blade Execution Shift, and the projectiles move at a slow pace. As soon as Zafira raises his shield those very same projectiles suddenly hit the shield with what in anime standards is bullet speed. Did they accelerate to that speed in 1 second? No, they always were that fast, the animation was simply slowed for effect.
Anime standards bullet speed = Not.

Quote:
My logic is that if a barrier jacket can protect a mage from crashing through five layers of concrete, it can sure as hell stop a bullet. The mage was larger, and far less designed to pierce, and yet smashed through five layers of concrete and got out unscratched. I haven't seen a bullet acomplish the same feat.
A mage also has far more mass, which allows the penetration to occur at a lower velocity. Add that we can't see exactly what happened, but that Defenser is already up. The possibility of an active defense can't be ignored here...

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-03-09 at 20:37.
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Old 2008-03-09, 20:08   Link #851
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I'm willing to grant the devices a hell of a lot of computing power. We have at least some idea of how hard it is to come up with artificial intelligence. We're granting that the devices are at least proto-sentient, and that they're actual AIs (and not, by contrast, trapped souls... except maybe Bardiche? That's unclear.) If the devices have the computing power to run their own personalities, and not -only- their own personalities but also other things as well, then they've got enough excess to do anything we ourselves find reasonable.

Calculating ballistic trajectories is -really easy- for a computer. (It's what they were built for!) Assuming that the device can see the projectile, it can figure out where it's headed, and evade/prompt the user to evade, or get ready to get smacked. On the other hand, the device can't automatically erect a magical barrier instantly - the barrier jacket has to actually take the hit.

I don't like the "slow shields" / Dune theory. For one thing, in Dune it strongly affects how they engage each other in hand-to-hand combat, whereas in Nanoha, they emphatically don't go for slow counters; Signum and Vita's fighting styles are more oriented towards overwhelming the enemy's defense, not sneaking through it.

Crucially, though, nobody really takes pot-shots at any of the characters with what we'd consider to be normal weapons, so it's tough to say. You'd THINK that it'd be easier to protect against a .44 magnum than a Starlight Breaker, right? But we don't actually know that, and "can protect you against a big magical blast" isn't necessarily the same as "can protect you from a lil' piece of metal moving really quickly".

As far as the reasoning behind the ban, the major objection presented in the show is that non-magical weapons can get out of hand, destroy whole cities, yadda yadda. Makes me feel that it's more of a cultural choice than something based on hard reason - they didn't ban pistols and nukes in the same sweep because they couldn't tell the difference, but because that difference didn't -matter- to them. Maybe they encountered a technology-heavy opponent in the past or something? Or had a civil war where there were nukes tossed around? (Now -that- would explain why there's so many bloody ruins!)

At the same time, it's interesting that Jail didn't resort to conventional weaponry either. The law isn't a problem to him, using banned technologies isn't a problem to him. That suggests that either he's just obsessed with his cyborg systems (plausible), or that they're not that effective in the face of even meager magical opposition. Specifically, it's interesting that he didn't mount a conventional weapon on the gadgets, given their AMF properties! (One of them did have rockets...)
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Old 2008-03-09, 23:08   Link #852
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Jail DID use conventional weapons here and there... unless those missiles the drones were firing in StrikerS 11 at 14:45 WEREN'T missiles. And they look a lot like missiles to me. Really pathetic missiles, but still missiles.
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Old 2008-03-09, 23:14   Link #853
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Jail DID use conventional weapons here and there... unless those missiles the drones were firing in StrikerS 11 at 14:45 WEREN'T missiles. And they look a lot like missiles to me. Really pathetic missiles, but still missiles.
Just a shot from the hip: In terms of what owns what, Bullets > Magic Barrier > Missiles? That way, a mage just has to have barriers to tank the missiles and dodge the bullets.
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Old 2008-03-09, 23:54   Link #854
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But those were pathetic missiles. More like Macross micromissiles really.

If you want to bust barriers, you'll need a REAL missile, like a Harpoon Anti-ship missile. But then again, the drones were just to distract.
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Old 2008-03-09, 23:57   Link #855
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Originally Posted by Avatar not ADV View Post
Specifically, it's interesting that Jail didn't mount a conventional weapon on the gadgets, given their AMF properties!
We don't know if their beam guns were magically powered or not. And the Air Figthter Drones certainly carried air-to-air missles.
One important difference between Nanohaverse magical attacks and conventional weapons is that the former is self-sustaining. As long as the mage is fit, she can continue to launch attacks with the magic from her Linker Core.
Conventional weapons do not exist in isolation and more importantly, come in finite quantities. You can only carry a limited ammount of bullets, missles, explosives, etc into battle. Once they're expended, you need to rearm.
Manufacturing that ammo - alone! - requires massive industrial resources. Jail would have needed another factory just to build bullets if his drones use projectile guns. I think it would have increased the resource requirements for his operations by one third. It would also increase the size of his "cannon fodder" drones. If they had to carry bullets, the Type-1s would have been the same size as the Type-3s. Maybe he figured the performance of missles was worth the effort to build them, but bullets in the quantities needed were too much.
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Old 2008-03-10, 00:48   Link #856
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
While this is very interesting, can we get back to the point?
Is there any indication of magical defense construction that can make conventional weapons ineffective in Nanoha? Tshouryuu thinks there has to be in order for the ban to be practical.?
I hadn't thought of that while we were discussing the conditions that could make the ban possible.
OK, the picture gets clearer. Tshouryuu is using Counter-Induction. Instead of thinking from what they clearly do have, he insists there is a requirement and wants to make up a system. The block bullet part is actually the less offensive part. The more effective against HV part is more.

Frankly, if I were some TSAB Battalion Commander tasked with taking out a bunch of conventional weapon wielding freaks, I'll request something a little tougher than the soft, fluffy BJs that seem to be the norm. Pseudomatter armor plate will work better - basically hard and tough. You use hard plate to stop penetrations and add the BJ's buffering effect and we can start doing something, at least against light weapons.

After that, it is a matter of organization. Given a simple linear situation, the battalion is to be organized into the following components:

1st Echelon = the best shielders
2nd Echelon
"Tail" = healers; I might need lots of them.
Elite mages (if I have any).

After teleporting as close as possible towards the enemy, I'll put my 1st echelon into a shallow box formation. Their task is to erect a shield wall and cover my 2nd echelon. Elite mages are to fire suppression at the enemy with area fires (read: randomly lobbing rounds). When you are badly outranged, suppression is your best friend. They should really be using natural cover too, but closure now is the other best friend, before my elites run out of energy to fire suppressive fire. If I don't have elites then the formation is still the same.

The 1st echelon has to last until we get to oh, say 50m. The 2nd echelon advances under the cover of the lead echelon. Forget overwatch unless I have a few snipers (with rifle-shaped devices with stocks) in my team - it'll slow down my SOA and overwatch is nearly useless if the overwatching units cannot engage the enemy effectively. At 50m, the line is to assault, and the support fire lifted. If there are no second lines that have to be suppressed, the elite mages are to advance to act as cavalry. Whether they are to come in close to fire, or outflank the enemy, or otherwise depends on my estimate of the situation.

The 2nd echelon attacks the enemy in pairs, so that one is always shielding, until the range gets into point blank. The healers come and heal the corpses.

By doing this, I should be able to attack a light weapon armed conventional line without losing my whole battalion. After this, I start writing another futile paper to TSAB higher-ups: "The Value of Magi-mech support on the battlefield...", followed by letters to the parents of the fallen...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
We don't know if their beam guns were magically powered or not. And the Air Figthter Drones certainly carried air-to-air missles.
One important difference between Nanohaverse magical attacks and conventional weapons is that the former is self-sustaining. As long as the mage is fit, she can continue to launch attacks with the magic from her Linker Core.
Conventional weapons do not exist in isolation and more importantly, come in finite quantities. You can only carry a limited ammount of bullets, missles, explosives, etc into battle. Once they're expended, you need to rearm.
Manufacturing that ammo - alone! - requires massive industrial resources. Jail would have needed another factory just to build bullets if his drones use projectile guns. I think it would have increased the resource requirements for his operations by one third. It would also increase the size of his "cannon fodder" drones. If they had to carry bullets, the Type-1s would have been the same size as the Type-3s. Maybe he figured the performance of missles was worth the effort to build them, but bullets in the quantities needed were too much.
On the flip side, if it increases the effectiveness of his drones, he'll have to build less of those suckers.

NOTE: For the rest of you, wait. I actually have a busy workday today and so can't spend nearly as much time sneaking off replies to you.
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Old 2008-03-10, 01:24   Link #857
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
OK, the picture gets clearer. Tshouryuu is using Counter-Induction. Instead of thinking from what they clearly do have, he insists there is a requirement and wants to make up a system. The block bullet part is actually the less offensive part. The more effective against HV part is more.

Frankly, if I were some TSAB Battalion Commander tasked with taking out a bunch of conventional weapon wielding freaks, I'll request something a little tougher than the soft, fluffy BJs that seem to be the norm. Pseudomatter armor plate will work better - basically hard and tough. You use hard plate to stop penetrations and add the BJ's buffering effect and we can start doing something, at least against light weapons.

After that, it is a matter of organization. Given a simple linear situation, the battalion is to be organized into the following components:

1st Echelon = the best shielders
2nd Echelon
"Tail" = healers; I might need lots of them.
Elite mages (if I have any).

After teleporting as close as possible towards the enemy, I'll put my 1st echelon into a shallow box formation. Their task is to erect a shield wall and cover my 2nd echelon. Elite mages are to fire suppression at the enemy with area fires (read: randomly lobbing rounds). When you are badly outranged, suppression is your best friend. They should really be using natural cover too, but closure now is the other best friend, before my elites run out of energy to fire suppressive fire. If I don't have elites then the formation is still the same.

The 1st echelon has to last until we get to oh, say 50m. The 2nd echelon advances under the cover of the lead echelon. Forget overwatch unless I have a few snipers (with rifle-shaped devices with stocks) in my team - it'll slow down my SOA and overwatch is nearly useless if the overwatching units cannot engage the enemy effectively. At 50m, the line is to assault, and the support fire lifted. If there are no second lines that have to be suppressed, the elite mages are to advance to act as cavalry. Whether they are to come in close to fire, or outflank the enemy, or otherwise depends on my estimate of the situation.

The 2nd echelon attacks the enemy in pairs, so that one is always shielding, until the range gets into point blank. The healers come and heal the corpses.

By doing this, I should be able to attack a light weapon armed conventional line without losing my whole battalion. After this, I start writing another futile paper to TSAB higher-ups: "The Value of Magi-mech support on the battlefield...", followed by letters to the parents of the fallen...



On the flip side, if it increases the effectiveness of his drones, he'll have to build less of those suckers.

NOTE: For the rest of you, wait. I actually have a busy workday today and so can't spend nearly as much time sneaking off replies to you.
arkhangelsk, Let me repeat, I'm talking about the fields that come with the BJ not the actual material of the BJ itself...
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Old 2008-03-10, 01:32   Link #858
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Refer to post 831.
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Old 2008-03-10, 02:47   Link #859
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I want to remind everyone of something: when I theorised that the Fields don't work on slower attacks, i'm referring to "slower than rifle rounds." Vita and Signum as fast attackers, but are still slower than rifle rounds.

Unless y'all now wanna start arguing mages are faster...

Fact is, I think it's probably the invisible barrier that absorbs the brunt of the attack and the field which slows it down. Refer to StrikerS Episode 4 when Erio scratches Nanoha's BJ.
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Old 2008-03-10, 03:02   Link #860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
What I'm suggesting is that the field and barrier acts on par with the crystal gel suggested by that Spacebattles poster. Normally it's soft and moves freely, but an impact, such as a bullet or high force blunt impact compress the field and trigger the barrier. (Who says the barrier's the ouside?)
At this point it becomes rigid to prevent impact directly to the wearer as much as possible.

Smart-Jacket barrier jacket. The jacket iself could even be made of carbon nanotube-like materials in the fabric to further increase the effect.
A trigger? Wow, man, sounds like my MV should go up so that it'll be all the way through before the barrier activates. Since a new defensive magic generally takes a second or so to deploy at least...

By the way, even granting it'll harden, its ability to "defend more effectively" as KE goes up (tsoushurryu's stipulation) will only apply if it is tougher than the projectile - the KE goes into deforming and destroying the round itself.

So, granting that it can toughen itself up enough to gain a strength advantage over a Terran bullet, it can indeed be "bulletproof" and thus save Mid mages from the embarassing fate of being crunched by a non-mage power who hasn't even really mastered spaceflight beyond the orbit.

However, it won't grant it much protection against their own ammunition. Whatever techniques are used to toughen up the suit in principle can be applied to projectiles as well, and not having to compromise b/w the soft and hard forms, it'll be tougher and thus the suit itself does most of the deforming, with deformation generally increasing with KE.

Now that I've played this little game, I'll point out again that this is an example of Counter-Induction, and it is a game of unfalsifiable endless speculation, with its only justification being someone's concept that BJs must have this functionality. At least Keroko tried Induction...
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