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Old 2008-03-10, 13:43   Link #881
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Trouble with first season is that through all the fighting, they weren't trying to seriously harm each other. Nanoha wanted to pummel Fate into listening, and Fate just wanted to spook her into not getting in the way. Plus that was purely magical attacks in nature. 'Phasers Set to Stun.'

In A's however, the stakes went up when Vita kind of lost it and nearly killed Nanoha. And the Wolkenritter weren't exactly holding back for love nor money. Signum was most certainly in the fight to put Fate down after the counter-attack on Vita.
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Old 2008-03-10, 13:45   Link #882
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Trouble with first season is that through all the fighting, they weren't trying to seriously harm each other. Nanoha wanted to pummel Fate into listening, and Fate just wanted to spook her into not getting in the way. Plus that was purely magical attacks in nature. 'Phasers Set to Stun.'

In A's however, the stakes went up when Vita kind of lost it and nearly killed Nanoha. And the Wolkenritter weren't exactly holding back for love nor money. Signum was most certainly in the fight to put Fate down after the counter-attack on Vita.
Actually I need to disagree. The Wolkenritter were not attempting to kill anyone: Vita wanted to fulfill their goal without killing a single person. She just kind of lost it. They only fought to incapacitate their enemies.

There are a few exceptions (Like Signum mentioning to Fate that she might not be able to stop her [Fate] without killing her).
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Old 2008-03-10, 14:35   Link #883
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Attempting and what acctually occures are two different things. Vita was most certainly going into Hammerziet on Nanoha. She's not exactly known for her Self Control. You can say all the stuff you want, but when backed into a corner, they fought full on... If that resulted in some killing... OOPS. Signum made that clear even if she expressed regret in doing so.
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Old 2008-03-10, 15:10   Link #884
Mirificus
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
I wanna point out something on stocks: they help the accuraccy but you don't really need them for sniping if you have a good bipod. Carlost Hathcock's 2,200 meter kill was with a scoped M2 machine gun with no stock.
Of course there was no need for a stock. The M2 was kept stable by the tripod, not to mention that it has no provision for a stock.

Quote:
SEALs train with the MP5N's stock retracted.
When the stocks are retracted they brace MP5s using their slings.

For any kind of aimed fire, you want the gun to be as stable and supported as reasonably possible. Stocks, bipods and slings are all simple and reliable mechanical aids that can help with that. The need for stabilization holds true for any kind of ranged weapon. The less stable the weapon platform, the less accurate any fire from it will be.
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Old 2008-03-10, 15:12   Link #885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
When the stocks are retracted they brace MP5s using their slings.

For any kind of aimed fire, you want the gun to be as stable and supported as reasonably possible. Stocks, bipods and slings can all help with that.
I can attest to that :3

I just recently took a range course during the summer, and my shooting accuracy jumped from a lvl once i started using a sling, because the rifle was now being supported on my arm, via the sling :3
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Old 2008-03-10, 15:23   Link #886
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Amen as well to stablized firearms. Gotta have your weapons stable, or your bullets go everywhere but where you want them. I don't know how many rounds I fired using the wrong arm to pull my weapon into my shoulder, but half of them liked to be two meters off target... and all that from just a little fatigue wobble at 200 meters.

Once I realized I was using my supporting hand to pull my M-16 into my shoulder, and switched to my trigger hand, the fatigue was nixed and I qualified on that run. (I had like, four runs on qualification day, and botched most of them because I couldn't stay COMFORTABLE in the prone, or the barrel would wobble all over the place. Not exactly making it easy to figure out what's wrong either when it's 98 degrees F in high georgia humidity with a Drill shouting at you to "FIRE! FIRE! FIRE DAMMIT!" They thought I was scared to miss. I ain't scared to miss when I know I'll miss when the sights are off to the LEFT, the RIGHT, or just plain out of allignment.)
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Old 2008-03-10, 16:13   Link #887
SpaceBrotha
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Not exactly making it easy to figure out what's wrong either when it's 98 degrees F in high georgia humidity
I can tell you that it's no easier when it's -20 celcius and you're not allowed to use gloves in your trigger hand... after an hour or so of holding the nice lump'o'iron in your hands it becomes kinda hard to actually feel anything. not to mention trying to adjust the damn thing with them numb fingers...
...and i never found prone to be the problem when firing, it was crouching... standing was done at half range, so i never had a problem with that... and no one stands straight in a fire fight anyway, unless they intend to leave feet first...
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Old 2008-03-10, 16:21   Link #888
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Originally Posted by SpaceBrotha View Post
I can tell you that it's no easier when it's -20 celcius and you're not allowed to use gloves in your trigger hand... after an hour or so of holding the nice lump'o'iron in your hands it becomes kinda hard to actually feel anything. not to mention trying to adjust the damn thing with them numb fingers...
...and i never found prone to be the problem when firing, it was crouching... standing was done at half range, so i never had a problem with that... and no one stands straight in a fire fight anyway, unless they intend to leave feet first...
We trained in foxhole sandbag and prone firing only. Trouble with the range was the rocks and sand. But I hear you in the cold stuff. The training was what I would call mismanaged. Trying to train too many people how to use their weapons effectively without anyone actually qualified for teaching. No wonder it takes three weeks... I could get a person to understand the firing concepts and what to watch out for with just a day with them. Firearms safety however, that DOES need to be pounded into skulls over three weeks. But If I can qualify with messed up vision (glasses with 3 year old presciption... and scratched, and I was plinking those pesky 300 meter targets just fine) I can certainly teach a few people how to hit something unless they were just plain horrible. Not exactly a cakewalk skill, but at the same time, it's not an X-games skill.
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Old 2008-03-10, 18:10   Link #889
Keroko
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Considering that the longest documented shot of Nanoha is 100m or thereabouts, and according to WG, Vice managed to shoot over that when he shot at the drones ... that at least is gone, unless you would like to dispute Wild Goose's findings, which will require you to range the shots yourself.
I'm not contesting Goose's findings, however, you should remember that Subaru -who is by no means a ranged expert- also formed a Wing Road at pinpoint accuracy along the same range. Are you saying that Subaru outranges Nanoha now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
OK, my memory was messed a little here. To be exact, the DVD booklet says "At full power, it can generate a field that can withstand even bombardment magics, but at full power its consumption is extremely high."

But at least it shows, certainly, that not all "fields" are created equal.
Duh, at full power anything will start being huge consumptions of energy. And anything can be adjusted with power, Barriers can be made sturdier, beams can be made stronger, I don't see how this matters to Fields alone, nor how it makes them 'power greedy'

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Oh, she randomly put out some red flames and you thought it was "an exact copy of Panzergeist", which was more like a purple glow?


Looks pretty similar, don't you think?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Fine. Panzergeist is a field. Now justify your belief that all fields allow mobility.
because A: Signum described it as an armor, and B: Signum is a close combat specialist. A defense that pins you down is a useless defense for a melee specialist, it only allows those with range to stay away from your weapons while you sustain fire.

A far better explanation for Signum to stay put is the intimidation effect it would bring, which is exactly what happened.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
What part of psychological shock do you not get.
Oh I get it, I just don't buy it. A veteran shocked to the point where they can't even move out of the way of a snails pace attack? Sounds rather unbelievable.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The fact your game character presumably has the gun on HIS shoulder means the game abstracts this part.
So you're saying that if you play enough shooters, you will automatically be able to aim right with a real gun as soon as you pick one up?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Oh, so indeed the close scenes were slowed according to you. Just as I thought. And so I ask you again, why is the far scene being accelerated not even a candidate. It contains much less detail. There were no voices and few sounds - sounds play h*ll on any significant time compression / dilation theory - we might have believed that Planet Namek was really going to blow up in 5 minutes and the delay is because we were seeing everything in super fast time if not for the sheer amount of dialogue
Because there is no need for acceleration. You'll notice that acceleration of scenes happens almost never in anime, whereas slowing does. Now, I know you'll protest against this reasoning, so I'll give you another example: A's 2 around the 16:50 mark clearly shows a real time situation thanks to Nanoha on the foreground. In the background, we see high-speed flashes of battle. That is how fast mage battles normally are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Why? What is a scene transition for except to mark a time shift. 5 minutes could have passed and you won't even know.
because the scene was made to be a shift of focuss.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I've quickly analyzed the scene. It took them 3 frames (28583-28586) to cross about 5 Zafira heights (say 10m). That's 10m every tenth of a second. Or about 100m/s. Your idea of bullet speed must be really slow... and there are plenty of scene cuts and distance to allow an acceleration phase any way you cut it.
*tired sigh* See, this is why I keep telling you that frame-by-frame analysis of anime doesn't work for calculating trajectory speeds in anime. You can grab almost any series that has rapid fire bullets, like, say, macross and do the same analysis and finding the real bullets fired by aircraft suddenly extremely lacking in speed.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It is a variant of sliding with the blow. If Laevantein swipes down, and Bardiche descends with it, then the full force of the blow is dissipated. I thought this principle is common in melee. Certainly, there's no sign the defenser broke.
Ah, now I see what you mean. Anyway, this technique is questionable depending on the situation. Sliding with the blow can sometimes give your oponent the advantage he needs to land a blow, it's a much better idea to slide sideways and create an opening. With shields, like it would have in this situation, then yes it works, but I wouldn't advice the trick with a sword. Bardiche though, shows no sign of doing so. In fact, he blocks the hit dead on.

But that's beside the point. At any rate, there is a clear sign that the defenser got broken. Note that when Signum strikes the defenser, she struck exactly where Bardiche's head was, when Yuuno found Fate, Bardiche's head was all battered up. Clearly the hit (a Shiden'Issen I might add, and a normal hit was already shown penetrating Fate's barrier later on) broke the barrer and hit Bardiche.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The key is in the distance from which they can deploy your defense. The BJ is an extremely short distance from the body. Thus, even if I grant the field infinite strength, it will be forced to stop Fate over an extremely short distance and thus in an extremely short time. This increases the deceleration and severely decreases the chance Fate will get out of it in one piece. A Defenser has more flexibility in deployment, thus allowing more time for the deceleration, which greatly increases the chances she'll get out of it in one piece.
And yet, there is increased evidence that the defenser got broken at the moment. I believe Tk once posted a real life video of someone in an armor taking blows the size of trucks, so there is a limit to your theory.

Also, I will once more (though I doupt you will even listen) point out that this is a magical girl anime. Now note that last word. In anime, many things happen that are not conform to the laws of physics, that's what makes them fun to watch to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
In A's however, the stakes went up when Vita kind of lost it and nearly killed Nanoha. And the Wolkenritter weren't exactly holding back for love nor money. Signum was most certainly in the fight to put Fate down after the counter-attack on Vita.
I'd like to argue that one, actuallly. In the manga it was stated that they did hold back a lot during the fights (which is supported by the fact that neither Signum, nor Vita, nor even zafira use their ultimate techniques untill the final fight).
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Old 2008-03-10, 19:01   Link #890
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Of course there was no need for a stock. The M2 was kept stable by the tripod, not to mention that it has no provision for a stock.


When the stocks are retracted they brace MP5s using their slings.

For any kind of aimed fire, you want the gun to be as stable and supported as reasonably possible. Stocks, bipods and slings are all simple and reliable mechanical aids that can help with that. The need for stabilization holds true for any kind of ranged weapon. The less stable the weapon platform, the less accurate any fire from it will be.
Oh, I'm well aware of all this. I was just tired and annoyed with ark's insistence on stocks and wanted to get in an admittedly faulty argument before I slept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Considering that the longest documented shot of Nanoha is 100m or thereabouts, and according to WG, Vice managed to shoot over that when he shot at the drones ... that at least is gone, unless you would like to dispute Wild Goose's findings, which will require you to range the shots yourself.
So basicaly in StrikerS, Quattro was just 100 meters away from Nanoha.

Yeah. Really.

As Keroko keeps saying and as I keep trying to point out, this is a Magical Girl Anime. Thus, stadia ranging and frame timings are going to be inherently flawed due to Magical Girl anime conventions as well as one simple thing: technological limitations of anime.

For another example, the Super Robot Wars games on GBA. You can have hugeass mecha and even bigger ships taking up the same space on the grid as the smallest grunt mecha. Why? Simplification and technological limitations of the platform. The same happens in anime; they need to cut production costs so they'll simplify as much as possible, which means that any timings/stadia ranging is inherently flawed.

Also, regarding people surviving 400MPH impacts: when a body freefalls down it eventually reaches a speed of 200MPH. Barring unusual exceptions, when that happens to people, they die on impact when they hit the ground.
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Old 2008-03-10, 19:01   Link #891
ghazghkull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
We trained in foxhole sandbag and prone firing only. Trouble with the range was the rocks and sand. But I hear you in the cold stuff. The training was what I would call mismanaged. Trying to train too many people how to use their weapons effectively without anyone actually qualified for teaching. No wonder it takes three weeks... I could get a person to understand the firing concepts and what to watch out for with just a day with them. Firearms safety however, that DOES need to be pounded into skulls over three weeks. But If I can qualify with messed up vision (glasses with 3 year old presciption... and scratched, and I was plinking those pesky 300 meter targets just fine) I can certainly teach a few people how to hit something unless they were just plain horrible. Not exactly a cakewalk skill, but at the same time, it's not an X-games skill.
LOL I easily taught a rookie in the basics of shooting a lvl-2 standard qualification within 15 minutes :3

In the program I took during the summer, there are four lvls of qualification, 1-4, with 4 being the highest. I walked away form that course with a lvl 4 qualifcation, although my shooting has probably by now degraded back down to a lvl 3, possibly due to a lvl 2 now because I haven't been on a range since then T.T

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I'm not contesting Goose's findings, however, you should remember that Subaru -who is by no means a ranged expert- also formed a Wing Road at pinpoint accuracy along the same range. Are you saying that Subaru outranges Nanoha now?
Yeah...I have to agree with Keroko. Nanoha's and possibly Hayate's range of fire is immense. Not may characters could possibly match their range. Plus here's the thing...Nanoha is an Ace! She's going to have superb range.

Quote:
Oh I get it, I just don't buy it. A veteran shocked to the point where they can't even move out of the way of a snails pace attack? Sounds rather unbelievable.
The day I see that happen is that day I get myself shot for being a stupid idiot and not dodge something I had pleanty of time for. Vita did not. Here's a something that might help you get an idea: try considering that it's the anime version of Matrix time.

Quote:
So you're saying that if you play enough shooters, you will automatically be able to aim right with a real gun as soon as you pick one up?
I can say right now: IMPOSSIBLE!

The configuration of the sight on games is utterly different to what you see on a real sight. Plus, it's a computer screen.

Secondly, even if you play a crap-load of real life ARCADE shooters, it's not going to prepare you for the real thing. The sights are not properly zeroed, the real things are way heavier than the arcade units, and most of all, RECOIL! It's going to leave a hell of a bruise if you're not ready for such impacts, compared to the taps that those shooters do.

Last edited by ghazghkull; 2008-03-10 at 19:24.
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Old 2008-03-10, 23:59   Link #892
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Originally Posted by ghazghkull View Post
I can say right now: IMPOSSIBLE!

The configuration of the sight on games is utterly different to what you see on a real sight. Plus, it's a computer screen.

Secondly, even if you play a crap-load of real life ARCADE shooters, it's not going to prepare you for the real thing. The sights are not properly zeroed, the real things are way heavier than the arcade units, and most of all, RECOIL! It's going to leave a hell of a bruise if you're not ready for such impacts, compared to the taps that those shooters do.
Agreed...

There's a saying floating around.

"It is said that marksmanship is as simple as aligning the sights and squeezing the trigger. It is also said that playing the piano is as simple as hitting the right notes in the right order."
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Old 2008-03-11, 00:03   Link #893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I'm not contesting Goose's findings, however, you should remember that Subaru -who is by no means a ranged expert- also formed a Wing Road at pinpoint accuracy along the same range. Are you saying that Subaru outranges Nanoha now?
Define "pinpoint" and "at the same range." I've had it of believing your pronouncements - they never seem to come true on objective analysis.

Quote:
Looks pretty similar, don't you think?
I have 20/200 in one eye (damage) and my other is not 20/20 even corrected thanks to extreme myopia. I must wonder what your eyes are like to call that flame and that glow "similar"... by the way, you started out with "exact copy". Now it is only "pretty similar"?

Quote:
because A: Signum described it as an armor, and B: Signum is a close combat specialist. A defense that pins you down is a useless defense for a melee specialist, it only allows those with range to stay away from your weapons while you sustain fire.

A far better explanation for Signum to stay put is the intimidation effect it would bring, which is exactly what happened.
Actually, armor is generally restricting. People tend to only move because of unarmored or at least less armored weaknesses in their armor, known as joints. Tanks move on their unarmored tracks. APCs have exposed wheels because armored skirts will restrict their ability to turn. Armored ships move propelled by unarmored screws.

Now look at PG. It is all encompassing. Do you see something resembling an opening to allow movement? If you see one, give me a screenshot. Thanks.

Flip B around. As a close combat specialist, Signum needs a method to survive the long range encounter phases of combat ... even if it restricts movement.

Quote:
Oh I get it, I just don't buy it. A veteran shocked to the point where they can't even move out of the way of a snails pace attack? Sounds rather unbelievable.
It is still coming at her at the speed of a car (16m/s).

Quote:
Because there is no need for acceleration. You'll notice that acceleration of scenes happens almost never in anime, whereas slowing does. Now, I know you'll protest against this reasoning, so I'll give you another example: A's 2 around the 16:50 mark clearly shows a real time situation thanks to Nanoha on the foreground. In the background, we see high-speed flashes of battle. That is how fast mage battles normally are.
You mean that geometric line dance? Isn't that just a phase of high speed skirmish combat?

Slowing down is pinned down when they start having sounds. Try halving the speed of the playback one time and seeing what happens to all the sounds. That did not happen. So if you insist time manipulation took place, it must be the one without such sounds that yields the place of realtime.

Quote:
*tired sigh* See, this is why I keep telling you that frame-by-frame analysis of anime doesn't work for calculating trajectory speeds in anime. You can grab almost any series that has rapid fire bullets, like, say, macross and do the same analysis and finding the real bullets fired by aircraft suddenly extremely lacking in speed.
As I said, anime bullet speed = not. But you promised me bullet speed. I don't see it.

Quote:
But that's beside the point. At any rate, there is a clear sign that the defenser got broken. Note that when Signum strikes the defenser, she struck exactly where Bardiche's head was, when Yuuno found Fate, Bardiche's head was all battered up. Clearly the hit (a Shiden'Issen I might add, and a normal hit was already shown penetrating Fate's barrier later on) broke the barrer and hit Bardiche.
IIRC the damage to the head was next time. But either way, even if it was broken, the Defenser could simply be regenerated. It is supposed to be a fast acting Auto Guard, you know...

Quote:
Also, I will once more (though I doupt you will even listen) point out that this is a magical girl anime. Now note that last word. In anime, many things happen that are not conform to the laws of physics, that's what makes them fun to watch to begin with.
I'll deal with this paragraph along with a similar one from WG.

Quote:
I'd like to argue that one, actuallly. In the manga it was stated that they did hold back a lot during the fights (which is supported by the fact that neither Signum, nor Vita, nor even zafira use their ultimate techniques untill the final fight).
Definitely agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Oh, I'm well aware of all this. I was just tired and annoyed with ark's insistence on stocks and wanted to get in an admittedly faulty argument before I slept.

So basicaly in StrikerS, Quattro was just 100 meters away from Nanoha.

Yeah. Really.
Considering the lack of ranging cues in that one, how would you disprove this?

Quote:
Also, regarding people surviving 400MPH impacts: when a body freefalls down it eventually reaches a speed of 200MPH. Barring unusual exceptions, when that happens to people, they die on impact when they hit the ground.
So, why do people insist that thin little BJ, without even the give of an airbag, saved Fate?

Quote:
As Keroko keeps saying and as I keep trying to point out, this is a Magical Girl Anime. Thus, stadia ranging and frame timings are going to be inherently flawed due to Magical Girl anime conventions as well as one simple thing: technological limitations of anime.

For another example, the Super Robot Wars games on GBA. You can have hugeass mecha and even bigger ships taking up the same space on the grid as the smallest grunt mecha. Why? Simplification and technological limitations of the platform. The same happens in anime; they need to cut production costs so they'll simplify as much as possible, which means that any timings/stadia ranging is inherently flawed.
As I've always said, I really tried to turn my brain off while watching MGLN, having gotten a bit tired of overanalyzing the Star Wars universe. Ep17 exceeded the limits on the tactical part, but I still tried to close my eyes on the technical. You will notice I didn't really get into the Magic and Tech thread until later on. I let Tk3997 do most of that stuff. But then I got sucked into technical discussions ... and that was that. SoD came back, full force. And when I go into SoD mode, I stick with it best I can.

The problem with you ("you" in the group sense) is that you are inconsistent in whether you take the SoD perspective or not. A typical argument with Keroko, for example, goes like this:

A: MGLN combat is close ranged (really trying not to look too closely).
K: No it isn't! Look at EpX of Y. Nanoha shot at Vita, who was a dot in the sky!
A: (Grabs frame; ranges) It was a 5px blob. The range is only about 100m, unless you want to insist on a zoom (but then no ranging is possible).
K: It looks further than that to me.
A: I did objective calcs. You used your subjective feelings.
K: Urr (realizes he isn't winning that way). It doesn't count! It is only anime! Anime cannot be ranged!
A: Then why the f*ck did you try to use "Vita is a dot" as an argument. Is it because all of a sudden, the conclusions of stadia ranging proved inconvenient?

It is one or the other. Presumably, Magic&Tech thread means we actually try and use everything (what little there is) to analyze out something. Fine.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghazghkull View Post
Yeah...I have to agree with Keroko. Nanoha's and possibly Hayate's range of fire is immense. Not may characters could possibly match their range. Plus here's the thing...Nanoha is an Ace! She's going to have superb range.
Hayate's range is good ... on indirect fire artillery bombardment. Nanoha ... well, we've ranged it.

I don't even want to comment on Ace = superb range arguments...

Quote:
The day I see that happen is that day I get myself shot for being a stupid idiot and not dodge something I had pleanty of time for. Vita did not. Here's a something that might help you get an idea: try considering that it's the anime version of Matrix time.
You will shoot yourself afterwards. At that moment, being in shock means just that ... you don't think much at all.

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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Well, we've seen that Mid mages have a method of cushioning ground impacts - Yuuno used it to save Nanoha from falling early in S1, and Chrono managed to brake right at ground level in A's after getting walloped by Mask. (But the first was an active-type defense - RH didn't do it on its own - and the second may have just been Chrono's flight spell recovering...)
Glad you agree.

Quote:
We know Fate is just plain quick; obviously if she's using Sonic Move, that's a significant amount of acceleration that she's being cushioned against. So it's at least not beyond the ability of a mage to survive that kind of acceleration in other circumstances (and, indeed, she did survive it.)
Or maybe she's just resisting it like a good pilot. I do notice that Sonic Move does not often get activated very long - a few seconds, say. Maybe that's why. Further, the acceleration configuration of Sonic Move is unclear - it is entirely possible that the entire body is accelerated at once (instead of a rocket booster at back creating a pressure) - in that case the body won't feel stress.

Quote:
Actually, here's a good question - how often do we see a character sustain an injury through the barrier jacket? That would give us an idea of what it takes to penetrate the jackets, and the sorts of things it protects poorly against.
The fastest one will be how Nanoha and Vita got shanked by a Type IV. Sein managed to cut Erio's hand even without any blades on her part.

Quote:
Hm... Season 1, we don't see a lot of this. Chrono got a head wound in the Garden somewhere, and Yuuno's taping up Nanoha's ankle, but we don't see either injury happen. (Let's discount the outliers, like Fate grabbing on to an unsealed Jewel Seed, or Fate's mom going through her jacket like hot butter.)

Fate's jacket takes a lot of damage from Nanoha's Divine Buster and then Starlight Breaker, but Fate doesn't actually sustain much in the way of damage (even though she had an uncontrolled fall into water at the end.)
The jacket is supposed to be magical - Nanoha is "deleting" the magic with her anti-magic strike.
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Old 2008-03-11, 00:15   Link #894
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OBJECTION!

Ark is bringing excessive Lawyer Skills to the thread! Such excessive argumentive skills grossly overkill the combined argumentive skills of all other parties involved and are an argumentive mismatch.

The INSANE party moves to have Ark discharged from the conversation until he can learn to tone the eloquently woven speach patterns down to managable levels.
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Old 2008-03-11, 00:17   Link #895
Avatar_notADV
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Exactly, and it's interesting how Fate's jacket frays at the edges as it takes that magical damage. Especially if we contrast it to Nanoha getting nailed by Vita head-on in A's ep 1; the jacket takes limited damage, but near-total for the area effected, and Nanoha obviously took a good amount of damage as well. (Enough that her vision was going in and out, so that's a head injury, though whether that was an effect of the hit or of going through the wall afterwards is unclear.)

For similar reasons, I'm not sure we can count the IV shanking Nanoha. We know that the gadgets pack anti-magic field technology; maybe they go through barrier jackets more effectively than normal. (At the same time, we see Signum's barrier jacket/armor/whatever breached at least twice by sharp weapon attacks from Fate. Maybe jackets aren't good against "slicing"?)
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Old 2008-03-11, 00:38   Link #896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
OBJECTION!

Ark is bringing excessive Lawyer Skills to the thread! Such excessive argumentive skills grossly overkill the combined argumentive skills of all other parties involved and are an argumentive mismatch.

The INSANE party moves to have Ark discharged from the conversation until he can learn to tone the eloquently woven speach patterns down to managable levels.
What mismatch? For one thing, b/w everyone that has at least something to say about my positions, I'm outnumbered about 5:1. Two, I write all the "daytime" replies (roughly 2/3rds of the total) without the benefit of easy access to sources -I'm going by memory. My night replies I write while fighting fatigue from a day of work. Third, I'm sneaking out replies with my superiors breathing down my back.

If I'm winning anyway, who knows? It might be because my position is fundamentally strong (though I might make a tactical misstep here and there)
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Old 2008-03-11, 01:08   Link #897
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
What mismatch? For one thing, b/w everyone that has at least something to say about my positions, I'm outnumbered about 5:1. Two, I write all the "daytime" replies (roughly 2/3rds of the total) without the benefit of easy access to sources -I'm going by memory. My night replies I write while fighting fatigue from a day of work. Third, I'm sneaking out replies with my superiors breathing down my back.

If I'm winning anyway, who knows? It might be because my position is fundamentally strong (though I might make a tactical misstep here and there)
For pity sake, YOU'RE OVER RATIONALIZING EVERYTHING!!!!

Granted there are some things you can rationalize into real world physics.

HOWEVER, there is only so much you can actually rationalize. The rest of it is bloody native to the ANIME!

The physics, the rationalization, the way battles occur, it is relative, to the anime, and only the anime. Trying to bring real-world physics into a make-believe world that has its own rules and properties of physics just doesn't work. It's like your matter and anti-matter, or your AC and DC. They equal no-no!
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Old 2008-03-11, 01:25   Link #898
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Alright, alright, ENOUGH.

Jesus, this was just a discussion on whether fields have antikinetic properties.

Now, as I said before, the general idea was that the field could be set to repel HV rounds which travel faster than beams, hence beam combat and melee would be viable because they'd be slower than the HV and wouldn't be caught by the anti HV field. This is a guess, a logical guess. (I am well aware that a wrong conclusion can be obtained logically from a flawed perspective.) I personally think it's more likely that the barrier on the BJ is what provides most of the protection; in Episode 4 of StrikerS, where Erio scuffs Nanoha's BJ, she says that he penetrated the jacket and hit the fabric...

With regards to the stadia ranging: I was trying to point out, Ark, that stadia ranging is inherently flawed. You'll note that when I mentioned Vice and sniping the drones on the cradle, I was trying to make a point to you on ranges and how we cannot get hard figures, but guess.

To continue, ark, 7arcs makes h-games. Their understanding of physics are already off-track! H-games. Where the money shots involve guy cumming and emitting more sperm, more jism, more white stuff, more seed of his loins, more little soldiers, than is humanly possible. This cannot be reconciled to reality.

I'm not going so far as to say that real-world physics don't compute to anime. But it's foolish to keep forcing reality onto an inherently unrealistic medium.

NOW, EVERYONE, PAY ATTENTION.
Emotions are running too high in this thread. I am therefore calling for a 36 hour timeout on Magitech. No posts. No replies. No mentions to it. Time out begins at 1500 GMT +8 / 0700 GMT / 0300 EST, or 35 minutes from now. Take this time to step back and cool down.

Then come back and post.

EDIT: 1435 (GMT+8): This means that you can post from now until 1500, fellas. Get your last shots in if you will. Cadians, I'll see you in the homeland.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-03-11 at 01:38.
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Old 2008-03-11, 01:36   Link #899
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Alright, alright, ENOUGH.

Jesus, this was just a discussion on whether fields have antikinetic properties.
Amazing. We are discussing something physical when this show isn't supposed to have real physics...

Quote:
Now, as I said before, the general idea was that the field could be set to repel HV rounds which travel faster than beams, hence beam combat and melee would be viable because they'd be slower than the HV and wouldn't be caught by the anti HV field. This is a guess, a logical guess. (I am well aware that a wrong conclusion can be obtained logically from a flawed perspective.) I personally think it's more likely that the barrier on the BJ is what provides most of the protection; in Episode 4 of StrikerS, where Erio scuffs Nanoha's BJ, she says that he penetrated the jacket and hit the fabric...
I call this Counter-Induction. Justifying abilities not by what is shown in canon, but by random speculations of perceived needs in lieu of using what's definitely there.

Quote:
With regards to the stadia ranging: I was trying to point out, Ark, that stadia ranging is inherently flawed. You'll note that when I mentioned Vice and sniping the drones on the cradle, I was trying to make a point to you on ranges and how we cannot get hard figures, but guess.
The moment you actually try and make a guess on the range he shot at, even if it is just "over 100", it means you believe in stadia ranging.

Quote:
To continue, ark, 7arcs makes h-games. Their understanding of physics are already off-track! H-games. Where the money shots involve guy cumming and emitting more sperm, more jism, more white stuff, more seed of his loins, more little soldiers, than is humanly possible. This cannot be reconciled to reality.
Nice thing about SoD. We don't have to think about what 7Arcs makes.

Quote:
NOW, EVERYONE, PAY ATTENTION.

Emotions are running too high in this thread. I am therefore calling for a 36 hour timeout on Magitech. No posts. No replies. No mentions to it. Time out begins at 1500 GMT +8 / 0700 GMT / 0300 EST, or 35 minutes from now. Take this time to step back and cool down.
I won't say my emotions are running too high, but I have no objection to using 36 hours for something else (like translating the DVD booklets). Frankly, answering several opponents in sequence is tiring. (Besides, if I agree, there's the small advantage that I currently happen to have the last big word in, never a bad position )

See you in 36. Out.
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Old 2008-03-12, 19:08   Link #900
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
Hey Ark, I think I've got a good candidate for a 'best case' beam shot. I'm stuck using youtube, my methods aren't great, and the scene is screwy, but I thought I'd throw it out there so we can have an alternative to this crap about beams being slower than a fast ostrich.
Ep6, original series? You'll have to wait at least 13 or 14 hours then if you want my commentary. Use this time to at least confirm the episode number.

I can write some replies while at work, but nothing that involves frame analysis.

In the meantime, you can take a look at some stuff I whipped up during the Cease-Fire:
http://arkhangelsk.onlinewebshop.net...transonic.html

Index Page:
http://arkhangelsk.onlinewebshop.net/

Tell me if you can even get into the site. Some people swear they can't...

Oh, and yes, the cease fire has ended a few hours ago. 3AM today.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-03-12 at 19:22.
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