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Old 2008-03-12, 19:17   Link #901
Kikaifan
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Oh, it is over?

Alright, checked. It is episode 6. And your page isn't working for me. I am in India right now though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Or had a civil war where there were nukes tossed around? (Now -that- would explain why there's so many bloody ruins!)
I thought that was kind of implicit in the shot of the nuke-scale weapon going off in the city when they discussed the reasons for the ban.


Hey Ark, I think I've got a good candidate for a 'best case' beam shot. I'm stuck using youtube, my methods aren't great, and the scene is screwy, but I thought I'd throw it out there so we can have an alternative to this crap about beams being slower than a fast ostrich.

In episode 6 of the first season, Nanoha and Fate start beamspamming at each other between the buildings.

Time: Fate fires 4 shots in just under 4 seconds, with 3 shots from Nanoha between them. Youtube = can't count frames, but since there are slight gaps between each beam that means the average duration of each beam's flight is under half a second. Assuming the animators aren't playing tricks, of course.

Distance: Although max range is extremely hard to determine in this shot because the beams originate and terminate off-screen, there is a helpful building right in the center of the pan that all the beams pass behind. Determined the width and height of the screen at the building's depth by assuming that one window + interval to the next window = 1 story = 3 meters.

Fate's final shot crosses the screen on its diagonal. If the shot were parallel to the plane of the screen and had crossed the face of the reference building, it would have had a visible length of ~70m.

However, the shot is three times as wide when it exits the screen as when it enters, implying considerable movement towards the screen as well as across it, and it passes well behind the reference building, so the distance it visibly crosses must be greater than 70m. Add to this its unseen offscreen motion and a range exceeding 100m doesn't sound too unlikely- and this is from an attack fired by Fate, as a child, at one second intervals, while maneuvering.

This also gives basic beam attacks a speed of at least 150m/s, which is at least faster than an arrow.

This thing really isn't much help but since I bothered to make it I'll throw it out.
Spoiler for lol wide picture:





I guess I'm late for that whole armor argument, but I'd always assumed the actual matter/pseudomatter of the barrier jacket was magically active and supporting an always-on omnidirectional barrier capable of stopping physical attacks, like the ones that protected Fate and Signum when they scored those glancing hits on each other at the beginning of their ep. 7 duel. I mean, if they can stop you from breathing nerve gas without covering your face I don't see why they can't stop you from eating a bullet, too.
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Last edited by Kikaifan; 2008-03-12 at 20:24.
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Old 2008-03-13, 00:28   Link #902
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
Alright, checked. It is episode 6. And your page isn't working for me. I am in India right now though.
OK, I am trying a new webhost. Tell me if this one works any better:
http://arkhangelsk.987mb.com/analysis/transonic.html
http://arkhangelsk.987mb.com

Quote:
This thing really isn't much help but since I bothered to make it I'll throw it out.
Spoiler for lol wide picture:
Quite frankly, I can't make out anything from your diagram with its painted on lines with numbers on them. I'll see if I can get some better shots when I get home.

Quote:
I guess I'm late for that whole armor argument, but I'd always assumed the actual matter/pseudomatter of the barrier jacket was magically active and supporting an always-on omnidirectional barrier capable of stopping physical attacks, like the ones that protected Fate and Signum when they scored those glancing hits on each other at the beginning of their ep. 7 duel. I mean, if they can stop you from breathing nerve gas without covering your face I don't see why they can't stop you from eating a bullet, too.
Your chemical warfare suit can save you from gases, but tell me you can tank bullets with it.
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Old 2008-03-13, 11:40   Link #903
Kikaifan
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Yeah. I just slapped a bunch of screenshots together and drew the beam trajectories on so I could look at them all at once instead of replaying the scene over and over again.

I'm using the ability to filter out the gas as evidence that the barrier jacket includes a layer of invisible, always-on protection effective against matter. The assumption that it can deal with high-energy attacks as well is a product of the numerous instances in Nanoha in which characters appear to benefit from such an invisible defense.
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Old 2008-03-13, 12:33   Link #904
krisslanza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Your chemical warfare suit can save you from gases, but tell me you can tank bullets with it.
This may be true but are you comparing a chemical warfare suit to magical clothing?

I still say a barrier jacket could easily stop a bullet - if not a few dozen.
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Old 2008-03-13, 12:59   Link #905
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
Yeah. I just slapped a bunch of screenshots together and drew the beam trajectories on so I could look at them all at once instead of replaying the scene over and over again.
I went over the same frames you did and finally figured out which is which. But that's also the biggest problem with the idea that those are actually beams (ignoring the inconsistency in speed with emissions that are confirmed to be beamspam) - the trajectories of the characters will have to be most contrived, almost as if the only reason they are moving is so they can get hit by the enemy's beams (for example, Nanoha moving just so that she can get hit by Emission#3). And I thought I was supposed to be the one that had an unfairly low perception of their intelligence!

And it is even worse than the diagram show because you missed something from not being able to go frame by frame. Nanoha's Emissions are better, but take that Fate Emission 1. Going frame by frame, you'll realize for a moment, it dips to a far more vertical angle, then goes from descent to ascent for a frame! Emission 5 is similar. What nice attack beams!

Further, there is no sign of them doing this kind of combat once we switch to the close up. Combining all these absurdities together makes me conclude that those were probably not attack beams at all, but rather the manifestation of two powerful mages' aural emissions (and the aura of the reactivating Jewel Seed?) interacting with each other.

By the way, can you tell me if you can actually access my page?

Quote:
I'm using the ability to filter out the gas as evidence that the barrier jacket includes a layer of invisible, always-on protection effective against matter. The assumption that it can deal with high-energy attacks as well is a product of the numerous instances in Nanoha in which characters appear to benefit from such an invisible defense.
I won't mind that. But I'll hesitate to just write "bulletproof" without even objectively analyzing its performance or seeing if it is possible to abscribe survivability to other things - such as active defenses, Autoguards ... etc.

Remember, Rein's barrier jacket was penetrated by a bug (Ep7 SS), so much it reached skin (poor Rein, still feel sorry for her there). If you did the DVD frame by frame, it was torn before the CPA! Yes, I know Rein's is only a A+, but she also had a much smaller area to defend. Is this supposed to inspire in me confidence that a barrier jacket will stand up to bullets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
This may be true but are you comparing a chemical warfare suit to magical clothing?

I still say a barrier jacket could easily stop a bullet - if not a few dozen.
I was poking fun at this abuse of inductive logic - ability to stop gases = ability to stop bullets?
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Old 2008-03-13, 13:03   Link #906
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I won't mind that. But I'll hesitate to just write "bulletproof" without even objectively analyzing its performance or seeing if it is possible to abscribe survivability to other things - such as active defenses, Autoguards ... etc.

Remember, Rein's barrier jacket was penetrated by a bug (Ep7 SS), so much it reached skin (poor Rein, still feel sorry for her there). If you did the DVD frame by frame, it was torn before the CPA! Yes, I know Rein's is only a A+, but she also had a much smaller area to defend. Is this supposed to inspire in me confidence that a barrier jacket will stand up to bullets?
To be fair it IS a magical bug. And Rein seems to be particularly weak to them.
A physical bullet =/= magical bug

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I was poking fun at this abuse of inductive logic - ability to stop gases = ability to stop bullets?
Ah yeah that makes more sense...
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Old 2008-03-13, 13:18   Link #907
Jimmy C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Combining all these absurdities together makes me conclude that those were probably not attack beams at all, but rather the manifestation of two powerful mages' aural emissions
I would like to know what you mean by "aural emissions" and how they would "interact" with each other. I can't even begin to think about how to discuss this when I have no idea what you're talking about.

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By the way, can you tell me if you can actually access my page?
This time, I could.
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Old 2008-03-13, 13:26   Link #908
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
I would like to know what you mean by "aural emissions"
and how they would "interact" with each other.
Think DBZ.
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Old 2008-03-13, 13:37   Link #909
Jimmy C
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You remember that but not Ranma? Geez. Nevermind.
Anyway, you'll have to explain. I can't form a connection here.
And it would be best if you have some hint, at least, that such things as "aural emissions" like you're describing here exist in Nanoha. Beyond "that's what I think this is.".
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Old 2008-03-13, 16:13   Link #910
Kikaifan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I went over the same frames you did and finally figured out which is which. But that's also the biggest problem with the idea that those are actually beams (ignoring the inconsistency in speed with emissions that are confirmed to be beamspam) - the trajectories of the characters will have to be most contrived, almost as if the only reason they are moving is so they can get hit by the enemy's beams (for example, Nanoha moving just so that she can get hit by Emission#3). And I thought I was supposed to be the one that had an unfairly low perception of their intelligence!
I attempted to plot the movement of the characters based on where their foe was aiming, but remember that the real cause-effect order is the other way around- one character aims at the other based on the other's movements! Their movements are contrived to avoid getting hit- thus the zig-zagging motions- and their attacks attempt to follow those motions.

Though I'll admit that the huge movement Nanoha has to have made after firing the fourth (her second) beam in order to be anywhere near where the fifth (Fate's third) was aimed is a little ridiculous. Perhaps flash move was used.

Quote:
And it is even worse than the diagram show because you missed something from not being able to go frame by frame. Nanoha's Emissions are better, but take that Fate Emission 1. Going frame by frame, you'll realize for a moment, it dips to a far more vertical angle, then goes from descent to ascent for a frame! Emission 5 is similar. What nice attack beams!

Further, there is no sign of them doing this kind of combat once we switch to the close up. Combining all these absurdities together makes me conclude that those were probably not attack beams at all, but rather the manifestation of two powerful mages' aural emissions (and the aura of the reactivating Jewel Seed?) interacting with each other.
I have trouble buying that. All of the Fate emissions move down and to the right, while all of the Nanoha emissions move up and to the left- the exchange still definitely has the appearance of being between two people aiming at each other (or at least in some general direction), not random discharges.

A different sort of issue your explanation brings up is the question of why, if magic can accidentally create giant arcs of energy that move at least ten times faster than their beams, have mages not based their attack spells off that effect?

I did do enough pausing to see that Fate's beams distort wildly, appearing to be arcs between two points rather than the flowing streams of energy the beams are usually depicted as. I can only explain this difference as a result of her using quickly-fired pseudoelectric magic, presumably without the multiple focusing rings that she often uses in A's and StrikerS.

(Well, actually I'd explain it as the animators changing the look-and-feel of magical combat somewhat each season, but since I'm using your system right now I'll leave that aside)

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By the way, can you tell me if you can actually access my page?
Yup. I was really surprised by that Sturm Falke article, the shot always looked terribly slow to me and I'd assumed it was just a very high-tension bow shot. I'd forgotten all about it being described as supersonic.

Quote:
I won't mind that. But I'll hesitate to just write "bulletproof" without even objectively analyzing its performance or seeing if it is possible to abscribe survivability to other things - such as active defenses, Autoguards ... etc.

Remember, Rein's barrier jacket was penetrated by a bug (Ep7 SS), so much it reached skin (poor Rein, still feel sorry for her there). If you did the DVD frame by frame, it was torn before the CPA! Yes, I know Rein's is only a A+, but she also had a much smaller area to defend. Is this supposed to inspire in me confidence that a barrier jacket will stand up to bullets?
Mostly for sophistry's sake: in the scanlation I have of the StrikerS manga, Nanoha refers to 'our barrier jackets and Rein's clothing' as though the two are distinct and need to be separately named. It could just be another name game like with knight armor and guardian beasts, but one could take it as evidence that they aren't really on the same plane. Also, the bugs can be used as nodes (is that a good term?) for attack spells, so it could have been magically-charged or something.

Now, in general I've favored the view that mages have extremely strong physical defenses for two reasons. One is the intuitive effect of watching them survive city-killer blasts- if a strong active defense can stop something that looks like a nuke, I start expecting their passive defenses to be able to handle small arms fire, and probably more, even with the caveat that 'same scale as a nuke' doesn't necessarily mean 'as hard to defend against with magic as a nuke'.

The second, of course, is that scene where Fate displaces a large amount of reinforced concrete and emerges intact that you just spent so much time arguing about. Suffice to say that while I agree that it's possible she used some unseen active method to survive the impact, with a few rare exceptions like the scene we're discussing above Nanoha has always been a show that liked to take combat slow and show the viewer action and reaction at length so I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect, as I do, that she didn't.
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Old 2008-03-14, 00:32   Link #911
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
I have trouble buying that. All of the Fate emissions move down and to the right, while all of the Nanoha emissions move up and to the left- the exchange still definitely has the appearance of being between two people aiming at each other (or at least in some general direction), not random discharges.
But one can hardly call them aimed (or even pointed shots of any kind either, without the people "evading" in ways that just "zig" them right into a beam...

Quote:
A different sort of issue your explanation brings up is the question of why, if magic can accidentally create giant arcs of energy that move at least ten times faster than their beams, have mages not based their attack spells off that effect?
That will be trivial compared to why do they use slow beams at all if those in Ep6 were actually beams.

It will be kind of like deliberately using a 50m/s round in a rifle.

It is not clear that those "giant arcs" of energy actually are in any way harmful. Even the very impressive looking glow of the Jewel Seed did remarkably little damage - RH and Bardiche were damaged, but even the two girls weren't visibly harmed, to say nothing of the surroundings. Fate only got burnt because she has to go touch the darn seed. Light does not equal harm.

There are certainly some applications of MGLN magic that are very fast - for example, telepathy. It does not stand that we can thus turn the telepathic signals into attacks!

Quote:
I did do enough pausing to see that Fate's beams distort wildly, appearing to be arcs between two points rather than the flowing streams of energy the beams are usually depicted as. I can only explain this difference as a result of her using quickly-fired pseudoelectric magic, presumably without the multiple focusing rings that she often uses in A's and StrikerS.
But 60+ degrees? Fate's magic generally thus fly straight, not zigzags.

Quote:
(Well, actually I'd explain it as the animators changing the look-and-feel of magical combat somewhat each season, but since I'm using your system right now I'll leave that aside)
In SoD terms (which by the way is the common standard when it comes to extracting quantitative technotactical data from fictional sources, not "my system") I'll class it as an emission. And this is no unique event.

You might compare it to the scene a little earlier when Arf was stated to be releasing a massive amount of magical energy over a wide area to excite the Jewel Seed. You'll notice that not only did she manage to knock out the electricity (or at least lighting) all over town (I've always said the Original was best at making things look l33t), but you also see those arcs in the distance (if you measured the speed of those arcs, you'll doubtlessly also find them very fast). But that's not a beam, not even a real attack (they want the magic power spread around a wide area, not concentrated into "beams"), and caused no damage to anything of import.

Or maybe Ep9, when those Jewel Seeds were activated and were running amok. In addition to towering light and a storm, they also randomly had these blue emissions - one of which smacked Arf (but apparently didn't do more than trifling damage either).

Further, the one great similarity of all these incidents is someone firing off her magic to excite a certain area. Then the emissions really get going. One can infer then, that the excitation energized the airborne mana to a higher energy state or otherwise made it easier to produce visible manifestations.

Summing up the evidence with my points before, I feel it is safe to class them as emissions.

Quote:
Now, in general I've favored the view that mages have extremely strong physical defenses for two reasons. One is the intuitive effect of watching them survive city-killer blasts-
The city was fine after SLB went through it, but I see your point. Still, it does not inspire me any confidence when barrier jackets and Knight's armor have been damaged or penetrated by:
1) Bugs's windblast
2) Sein's hand (Erio's) (can't blame magic blades here...)
3) Low velocity (compared to bullets) swipes and glances of blades (not a lot of pressure there).
4) Completely penetrated by Type IVs (Type 1s and IIIs produce AMF, but there's no evidence of it from II and IV, and ruther, even a strong AMF has little visible effect against BJs - or we'll be enjoying some nice naked scenes).

I certainly buy that Mid-tech could have made something that can block bullets and blades. But the BJ just doesn't seem to be it. The real pity is that it isn't that hard - the BJs just badly need a single, much neglected component - hard armor plate.

Quote:
The second, of course, is that scene where Fate displaces a large amount of reinforced concrete and emerges intact that you just spent so much time arguing about. Suffice to say that while I agree that it's possible she used some unseen active method to survive the impact, with a few rare exceptions like the scene we're discussing above Nanoha has always been a show that liked to take combat slow and show the viewer action and reaction at length so I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect, as I do, that she didn't.
I see. Well, I take a different approach to these things generally. Without contradicting evidence, I tend to go for what is most plausible (or at least the least implausible). For example, the BJ or an active shield might have saved Fate in that one. It may indeed be true, as Wild Goose suggests, that neither would have realistically saved Fate. However, the shield certainly has a much better chance scientifically due to the increased stand-off distance that will lower peak accelerations and peak forces and pressures. So the choice b/w the two is obvious.
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Old 2008-03-14, 00:49   Link #912
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Purely devil's advocate here...

Is being penetrated by Sein's hand really germane to the discussion? We're talking about something that can penetrate practically anything. Penetrating stuff is what Sein does! If she can go through a mile of armor, I don't think saying "she can go through a Barrier Jacket" necessarily means that the Jacket is flimsy...
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Old 2008-03-14, 02:22   Link #913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
But one can hardly call them aimed (or even pointed shots of any kind either, without the people "evading" in ways that just "zig" them right into a beam...
When was this scene again? It strikes me that the only way you can say that they flew into the beam deliberately with such conviction is that it showed her flying into it after it was fired. Was this the case?
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Old 2008-03-14, 02:35   Link #914
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When was this scene again? It strikes me that the only way you can say that they flew into the beam deliberately with such conviction is that it showed her flying into it after it was fired. Was this the case?
We don't know. We can't even see them throughout that scene. However, look at Kikaifan's proposed flightpaths. For them to be true, the two must basically be flying themselves into the emissions again and again, thus my comment.

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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Purely devil's advocate here...

Is being penetrated by Sein's hand really germane to the discussion? We're talking about something that can penetrate practically anything. Penetrating stuff is what Sein does! If she can go through a mile of armor, I don't think saying "she can go through a Barrier Jacket" necessarily means that the Jacket is flimsy...
Sein "dives" through solid material like it is water, presumably by exploiting the true degree of emptiness in matter, but she leaves it unharmed. The Deep Diver was off as Sein surfaced. Thus, if she hurt Erio, it is with her hand. A fingernail, maybe

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Old 2008-03-14, 03:39   Link #915
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
We don't know. We can't even see them throughout that scene. However, look at Kikaifan's proposed flightpaths. For them to be true, the two must basically be flying themselves into the emissions again and again, thus my comment.
In that case, I'm puzzled. What about an alternative explaination that they're better at aiming than they are at dodging? Since you are so convinved that they're flying into each other's shots, you must have discounted that for some reason already. What was it?
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Old 2008-03-14, 05:16   Link #916
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In that case, I'm puzzled. What about an alternative explaination that they're better at aiming than they are at dodging? Since you are so convinved that they're flying into each other's shots, you must have discounted that for some reason already. What was it?
First, as I said, I don't really believe they are beams at all, so they aren't running themselves into them.

As for them aiming, while Nanoha's emissions at least tend to go in one general direction, Fate's emissions zigzag (not visible in Kikaifan's picture) over 60 degrees from frame to frame. Crediting any kind of "aiming" or "control" to the process even if they are beams is ridiculous.

But back to Kikaifan's picture. Let's start with Fate's path.

Fate fires (1), then dives (2), right into Nanoha's beam. OK, that might just have been a bad choice.

She then continues her dive, fires back (3). Now, she begins a slow, arcing turn (what enthusiastic dodging!), right into a beam (4). Despite this, she does not inverse (does she want to get hit again or what?), but continues her turn to fire back (5). But then, with no threat, she turns again to fire (6).

But that monstrosity is nothing compared to poor Nanoha. Let's consider the light blue path first.

Nanoha gets hit (1) and jinks up to fire back (2). Now she dives, in a much longer jink (why?), thus allowing Fate to target and hit her (3). She then jinks up briefly again to fire (4). One will think Nanoha has learned the folly of long jinks by now, but no, she zooms forward until she gets hit again (5), without taking a shot opportunity. She jinks up, a bit more this time (6) to fire back (why a long jink to shoot this time?), and then she jinks a long dive again, right into Fate's beam (7).

Let's look at the Dark Blue line, an alternate path. Nanoha gets hit (1), flies backwards to return fire (2), jinks down in a very long run (3) and gets hit, zigs up (4) short to fire (nice, learning that short zigs = good), before dashing forward in a straight run to get hit (5). Then she goes the same as the blue path.

If those are the paths they took, both have a death wish, Nanoha more so. It definitely does not have any sign of evasive intent.
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Old 2008-03-14, 07:03   Link #917
Jimmy C
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Question then: Since neither Nanoha nor Fate are in view during the sequence, can we be sure they actually got hit when you thought they did?
Kikaifan's path is only an estimate after all. It's possible those positions aren't the ones Nanoha and Fate were in when they were actually firing. What then?
Anyways, they're nine and this was their first stint as mages. So what if their performance was less than stellar at this time?
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Old 2008-03-14, 07:08   Link #918
Kikaifan
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
But one can hardly call them aimed (or even pointed shots of any kind either, without the people "evading" in ways that just "zig" them right into a beam...
I'm still not getting you on this one. I'm assuming that they move first, and then the beam is fired. I don't assume that they move into the beam, just that they were at or near the point the beam was aimed at around the time it was fired.

Quote:
That will be trivial compared to why do they use slow beams at all if those in Ep6 were actually beams.
The obvious answer would be that the 'slow' beams are in fact in slow motion. This scene is valuable precisely because it breaks from normal Nanoha style and shows an exchange of shots at full speed without constantly switching back and forth to show the actions and reactions of each combatant in close-ups.

Quote:
It is not clear that those "giant arcs" of energy actually are in any way harmful. Even the very impressive looking glow of the Jewel Seed did remarkably little damage - RH and Bardiche were damaged, but even the two girls weren't visibly harmed, to say nothing of the surroundings. Fate only got burnt because she has to go touch the darn seed. Light does not equal harm.
Accepted.

Quote:
But 60+ degrees? Fate's magic generally thus fly straight, not zigzags.
I can't frame-by-frame it, but to me what it looks like is happening is that-

1. The point of the beam moves across the screen in a straight line.
2. The portion of the beam immediately following distorts.
3. The beam 'straightens out'
4. Then fades, leaving behind little remnants.

Could be explained by either the initial portion of the beam forming a path that the rest of the magic follows in better focus, or a sort of 'train wreck' effect caused by the compression of the middle part of the beam when the front hits something. I like the first better. At any rate, the fact that the beams all fade out and only leave remnants over their straight path suggests to me that the majority of the magic is moving in proper beam form.

I'm pretty sure I've seen beams 'rear back' or distort before/while hitting something in other shots too, but I'll have to look later. Think it's there in Nanoha and Fate's beam-o-war in episode 5 and when they go up against the big mecha with the shield in the Garden of Time at the end.

Quote:
In SoD terms (which by the way is the common standard when it comes to extracting quantitative technotactical data from fictional sources, not "my system") I'll class it as an emission. And this is no unique event.
You are its chief proponent around here though.

Anyway, agreed that random magical discharges with limited effect against mages are common enough, but the consistent direction and timing of the beams in the scene still gives me the impression of weapons fire first.


Other things:

As to the assertion that the scene doesn't match the closeups of the combat, at the very least Nanoha has Raging Heart in shooting mode before and after, indicating she was or was trying to fight at some range.

It's possible they might have been using those intermediate-power 'mini-beams' they create by charging up their basic attacks that show up occasionally in the first season and then disappear until Nanoha 'cools down' Teana in StrikerS.

Quote:
The city was fine after SLB went through it, but I see your point. Still, it does not inspire me any confidence when barrier jackets and Knight's armor have been damaged or penetrated by:
1) Bugs's windblast
2) Sein's hand (Erio's) (can't blame magic blades here...)
3) Low velocity (compared to bullets) swipes and glances of blades (not a lot of pressure there).
4) Completely penetrated by Type IVs (Type 1s and IIIs produce AMF, but there's no evidence of it from II and IV, and ruther, even a strong AMF has little visible effect against BJs - or we'll be enjoying some nice naked scenes).

I certainly buy that Mid-tech could have made something that can block bullets and blades. But the BJ just doesn't seem to be it. The real pity is that it isn't that hard - the BJs just badly need a single, much neglected component - hard armor plate.
Barrier Jackets, as per the name, include integrated barriers (that or my scanlation of the StrikerS manga is terrible). They aren't just being protected by the cloth. Apparently they're conveniently invisible most of the time, but that glow that shows up on Signum and Fate when they score those glancing hits on each other at the start of the A's 7 fight looked like it might be the thing.

The problem with using examples of BJ and their wearers taking damage from 'physical' attacks is that it's always against opponents using magic or magitech. There's pretty clear evidence that the 'magic sword' excuse is a valid one- Fate's barriers can displace hundreds of kilos of concrete in a high-speed collision, but they can't deflect Laevatein's blade (which, incidentally, gives off arcs of magic in Signum's pink when it hits them). Extending that to 'magic fists' (Arf gets magic arcs just from punching Zafira, YnS breaking Nanoha's shield) isn't hard.

I don't know what to say about that windblast though. That's just ridiculous. Though StrikerS is the season where Hiryuu Issen got deflected by some tiny projectile that looked like nothing so much as one of Kirby's air-puff attacks.
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Last edited by Kikaifan; 2008-03-14 at 07:21.
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Old 2008-03-14, 08:25   Link #919
Wild Goose
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Quick posting on the run:

On Rein's BJ being penetrated by the windblast, if you look at it more closely, Rein was grazed by the wings of the bug. Note how fast the wings are moving; we know that insect wings move very fast for them to gain their lift, much as how the hummingbird is a living helo because of the madly flapping wings. Considering that these insects seem somewhat harder physically than organic bugs, getting hit by the wings, even if just a graze, would be like getting hit with a lawn strimmer using a metal wire instead of plastic.

Scaled for Rein and plot, of course. And probably not as bad as my above example, or walking into a helo's rotors... (remembers hearing about one of his Dad's friends, a Malaysian AF mechanic, who got up one day and walked right into a Sea King's tail rotor, or about the Marine Cobra pilot in Vietnam who landed at the foot of a hill, got out, ran uphil, and got hit in the head by the main rotors.)

She wasn't hit by the windblast, but a direct impact. It was a graze, but it was just enough to hurt.

Also, consider that these bugs are magical...
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Old 2008-03-14, 09:41   Link #920
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Question then: Since neither Nanoha nor Fate are in view during the sequence, can we be sure they actually got hit when you thought they did?
Kikaifan's path is only an estimate after all. It's possible those positions aren't the ones Nanoha and Fate were in when they were actually firing. What then?
Anyways, they're nine and this was their first stint as mages. So what if their performance was less than stellar at this time?
Well, since we can't see them at all, how do we even know that they were aiming, or the shots came of their own volition, or that they were shots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
I'm still not getting you on this one. I'm assuming that they move first, and then the beam is fired. I don't assume that they move into the beam, just that they were at or near the point the beam was aimed at around the time it was fired.
Let me ask you. Why does Nanoha, for example (according to you), do short jinks to shoot, and long, long jinks that give people time to aim otherwise?

Quote:
The obvious answer would be that the 'slow' beams are in fact in slow motion. This scene is valuable precisely because it breaks from normal Nanoha style and shows an exchange of shots at full speed without constantly switching back and forth to show the actions and reactions of each combatant in close-ups.
Here's the problem. From the SoD point of view, the "slow" beam scenes, which contain lots of sound, have their timerates pretty much locked. You might be able to bump it up / down 10% but that's no help considering the base crudeness of our observations. Scenes like this one with few sounds are victims of being sped-up, if I'm to assume they are beams at all.

Appealing to literary analysis methods don't do you any good here. A detailed scene has priority then over a non-detailed one there too.

Quote:
I can't frame-by-frame it, but to me what it looks like is happening is that-

1. The point of the beam moves across the screen in a straight line.
2. The portion of the beam immediately following distorts.
3. The beam 'straightens out'
4. Then fades, leaving behind little remnants.
Actually, since you can't see either of our combatants positions, it is not even clear (if they are beams), that the first and last parts are the "straight part". Maybe the "distorted" part is on the right course to target. Or maybe none.

Quote:
You are its chief proponent around here though.

Anyway, agreed that random magical discharges with limited effect against mages are common enough, but the consistent direction and timing of the beams in the scene still gives me the impression of weapons fire first.
Quite frankly, the first impression it gave me (remember that right up until Ep17, I was really trying to turn my brain off) is that it is a cheap special effect drawn in by 7Arcs to show that there's a lot of energy in the area. Because there is no way something that random can be sane weapons fire, not to mention that about the only similarity it has with known attacks is that it glows.

SoDwise, it probably has to do with how the mages energy's interacted in the air. For example, it might be them arcing between two pillars of power. But frankly, it is really hard to say because we don't even see our targets.

Quote:
It's possible they might have been using those intermediate-power 'mini-beams' they create by charging up their basic attacks that show up occasionally in the first season and then disappear until Nanoha 'cools down' Teana in StrikerS.
What mini-beams. And if those mini-beams are any use as weapons, they should have thrown them at each other.

Quote:
Barrier Jackets, as per the name, include integrated barriers (that or my scanlation of the StrikerS manga is terrible). They aren't just being protected by the cloth. Apparently they're conveniently invisible most of the time, but that glow that shows up on Signum and Fate when they score those glancing hits on each other at the start of the A's 7 fight looked like it might be the thing.
Yes, the cloth is part of the barrier / field structure. It is all, ultimately, formed by magic.

Quote:
The problem with using examples of BJ and their wearers taking damage from 'physical' attacks is that it's always against opponents using magic or magitech. There's pretty clear evidence that the 'magic sword' excuse is a valid one- Fate's barriers can displace hundreds of kilos of concrete in a high-speed collision, but they can't deflect Laevatein's blade (which, incidentally, gives off arcs of magic in Signum's pink when it hits them). Extending that to 'magic fists' (Arf gets magic arcs just from punching Zafira, YnS breaking Nanoha's shield) isn't hard.
That's why used those only as secondaries. Also the blade is not always "powered up".

Quote:
I don't know what to say about that windblast though. That's just ridiculous. Though StrikerS is the season where Hiryuu Issen got deflected by some tiny projectile that looked like nothing so much as one of Kirby's air-puff attacks.
Actually, the DVD booklet spent some time going over that. Apparently, Agito's powers as a Fire-magic user extended to cancelling out flames that other people put. That "Kirby air-puff" is a shockwave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Quick posting on the run:

On Rein's BJ being penetrated by the windblast, if you look at it more closely, Rein was grazed by the wings of the bug. Note how fast the wings are moving; we know that insect wings move very fast for them to gain their lift, much as how the hummingbird is a living helo because of the madly flapping wings. Considering that these insects seem somewhat harder physically than organic bugs, getting hit by the wings, even if just a graze, would be like getting hit with a lawn strimmer using a metal wire instead of plastic.
Do you think I say such ridiculous and depressing things on a whim or even based on normal speed playback? I've watched the DVD subs from Coldlight very carefully before reluctantly coming to this conclusion. I might not think that BJs are bulletproof but I honestly thought they were tougher than god-d*mned tissue paper.

Look at this depressing frame sequence and weep :
http://arkhangelsk.987mb.com/analysis/ss07depress.html

Quote:
Scaled for Rein and plot, of course. And probably not as bad as my above example, or walking into a helo's rotors... (remembers hearing about one of his Dad's friends, a Malaysian AF mechanic, who got up one day and walked right into a Sea King's tail rotor, or about the Marine Cobra pilot in Vietnam who landed at the foot of a hill, got out, ran uphil, and got hit in the head by the main rotors.)
Imagine if your Dad's friend died before he even walked into the rotor.
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