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Old 2008-04-01, 10:22   Link #1121
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Not to mention there is information in the novel that wouldn't fit in canon, such as the 'forced reqruitement' thing. Disregarding Nanoha, who, I believe it was stated, was only allowed to stay on earth because Lindy pulled some strings, Fate, Hayate and the Wolkenritter were also allowed to stay on earth. Nanoha, I can buy, even with the total lack of evidence but to say Lindy has enough influence to allow several criminals to stay on a planet they should have been drafted of the moment they were discovered? I mean, even during StrikerS there are people who don't trust Hayate and see her as a criminal, and that's excluding Regius.
Fate volunteered as a shokutaku before her trial was even over. Her first mission was then on Earth, and then she was taken under Lindy's wing. If Lindy decides to live on Earth...

For Hayate and Wolkies, Chrono (and Lindy) specifically offered a quid pro quo - service for relative freedom, which they accepted. What is it if not a demi-conscription.

Given such large concessions (they agreed to serve), I'm sure the TSAB has a little maganimity.

Oh, and Comarteris, regarding the whole feasibility of conscription of high-ranking mages, see the Military decisions thread. IMO, basically, the value of a high-ranking mage in their system is such that the risks are worthwhile.

If this is going to turn into a full blown discussion, might want to move it to the Military thread...
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Old 2008-04-08, 06:19   Link #1122
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
This is an entirely different thing a practice sword can be weighted and shaped identically to the real deal for the most part the only thing it lacks is an edge. This would be more like trying to teach someone to shot a gun with blanks I don't see how they can be expected to "get used to it" if the weapon is an emasculated and pale imitation of the real deal. For instance the first gun you learn to shot is rather likely to be real and quite capable of killing someone if you misuse it.
You forget that learning magic is a biological process as well. Your body has to get used to the magic, especially since devices are capable of drawing out more. It is noted several times in canon that using too much is dangerous, and it is also noted several times that the Forwards devices do have limiters. Hell, episode 4 basically renders this entire point null and void by blatantly stating the Devices are less powerfull in their initial stages, only getting more powerfull as they get used to them.

Hence, I think the sword analogy fits better. Only when you get used to wielding a wooden one without hurting yourself are you trusted with a sharp one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
So after all that it turns out that he can't acutally use a spell like this without a bunch of prep... So basiclly we're back to the fact that lower ranked mages lack spells with really high firepower to competent with more conventional weapons. Given the time involved a demolition chagre would likely do the same thing quicker.
Probably. It certainly is more effective in combat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Horseshit now you’re back pleading to try and cover your ass in the face of this insanity when he graduated he was an enlisted solider in the TSAB you’re telling me they’ll give you a rank and a position in the armed forces having no experience using the primary weapon of their military. This is like sending riflemen to an active combat units while having never fired a weapon you CAN’T be this stupid or expect me to buy this drivel. Rein can kiss my lily white ass I refuse to believe that the basic training required to enlist in the TSAB includesno training whatsoever with a device something which every combat mage every seen in the TSAB armed forces has been seen to use.

I’ve said it before I’ll work with canon to a point, but when confronted by something utterly retarded or totally inconsistent I’ll ditch it. This is one of those times IMO what the fuck is the point of a "basic training" that dosen't teach you the core basic skills require of your post! Like you know USING YOUR PRIMARY FUCKING WEAPON.

Really the entire training process as shown in StrikerS has left me deeply unimpressed from Nanoha's lessons in tactics to the seemingly haphazard methods involved it's one the aspects I hate most about the series and not even becasue it is training, training done well can be nearly as exciting as real battle, but becasue it's training done poorly and incompetently and it offends my militray sensibilities. I think I've said this before, but I still think Teana at the start of the series would make a better instructor then Nanoha and the rest based on the show and the Manga.
Look, you can complain about the lack of logic all you want, but Rein blatantly said "Because you two haven't had any real experience with devices before" making it a fact that Erio had not done any real training with his device.

what I meant with basic training was this:



Do you see any devices? Do you see any of them learning the art of combat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Right about 400 Km/h is the world record, but many militray models cruise in the 275 to 300 range as standard (with helicopters it's more aerodynamics then power that limits there speed and modern engines have so much horsepower that even very large helos tend not to be hugely slower then smaller models). The CH-53E Super Stallion for instance cruses at around 275 m/h and can push it to 315 if need by all while carrying 55 men or even light armored vehicles. What this means is that even if your mage speeds are right helicopters are at worst about even and possibly even slightly faster over long distances. Given that helos being used to insert even aerial mages is just a canon fact this seems about right to me.
And yet we've seen Nanoha overtake one of those very Heli's before, suggesting that they are in fact faster.

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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
I see so having a knife rammed straight through your chest with no real resistance is a “scratch” now? I’d hate to see what you class as a serious injury! So what’s your excuse for the drones being able to easily bisect a barrier jacket, Magical Robot Knives? If a mage isn’t actively shielding themselves they’re highly vulnerable to any sort of physical weapon I don’t see how you can watch the series and not come to that conclusion. Said shielding is also just as clearly not automatic and requires them to activate it as needed and they’d never be able to do that AFTER someone fired at them with a gun.
Ironic that you seem to completely ignore the AMF that was saturating the area.

That aside, using Ark's logic there is a perfectly logical reason why Eisen didn't activate the defence: It didn't know the attack was coming. The drone was stealthed from every form of scanning, surprising not only Vita, but Eisen as well. No matter how fast you are, if you don't know the attack is coming, good luck defending against it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Then why stop them at all? If there apparently is no risk? The only reason TO stop them is if there is some risk of injury also recall this a girl that’s pretty widely know for almost pathological confidence in good outcomes and in this case indeed it really WAS no big deal for someone of her skill to deal with the problem. Panicking wasn’t going to do any good and she knew she was easily up to the task of stopping them. But she was still concerned because she stopped them something she wouldn’t have done IMO if there was no real risk if only to teach them a lesson about thinking things through and being careful.
Because it still hurts? Let's face it, defences or not, smashing into a wall will hurt, but Nanoha was way to casual for it to be anything serious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
After all she hardly coddled them later when they made mistakes and she didn’t even lift a finger when Vivio feel on her face when she was sure the fall hadn’t seriously hurt her. So why would she behave in a totally different manner with the forwards unless the situation was different and there was some real risk if she didn’t stop them?
The difference in behaviour during the mock battle was rather huge, in case you hadn't noticed. It sparked riots here on the forum, which just leaves Vivio. Counter that with the high amount of times the cast gets smacked against and through solid materials (in StrikerS, Erio especially is prone to this) and a patern starts growing.

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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
I’ll admit I thought you where advocating a higher speed, but really this just proves my point 300 kh/m is pretty damn fast already, but not so fast as to make a helicopter useless. The thread was moving kind of fast and you kept making new replies as I was finishing my own so I might have lost track of the conversation slightly as I tried to pick out what I wanted to comment on.
Well, technically 100 M/S is around 360 KM/H, so you're not entirely wrong.

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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Yeah because I mean we see that… oh right basiclly NEVER. Also tying into the above example about weakness without shields Vita sure could have used one of these when that drone came up behind her and skewered her. This also assume the shield can acutally be raised that fast unlikely given that we can often watch them visibly deploy outward often over several frames before they reach full size.
Now where was that argument when the auto-guard theory was used to butcher the protective properties of the Barrier Jacket? This means that it is yet more likely that Barrier Jackets provide good defense against kinetic impacts.

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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
No what I’m saying is that both sides have advantages and counter measures against each other so which on wins depends on the situation, but that said used competently technology could be extremely dangerous to mages and would demand quite a different approach to what we see in the series in order to deal with it. Ideally I think you’d want both since as I said they do different things. Basiclly mages make really good infantry, but infantry alone dose not a war win. Also most of the rank and file grunt mages would have a much thinner advantage then the elites do and at the lowest level (ground forces mages that can’t fly) it would be a very close fight between them and well trained and geared infantry.

So while the elites of the TSAB are certainly dangerous and would require considerable effort to deal with the lower level majority are considerably less so and lacking various useful bits of technology would take much higher losses and be noticeably easier to counter. Mages of all strips are also rather vulnerable to ambush and the lacking of any sort of armored vehicles or protective gear extirpates this problems can you imagine low level TSAB grunts in say Iraq for instance? They’d be getting blown up and shot left and right they’d quite likely do considerably worse then the US army is.
... So you're saying we've basically been arguing round and round while we are both supporting the same point of view?

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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
I've never advocated something like that, but I also won't stand for people that seem to think that having magic powers somehow automatically makes you immune to bullets and unstoppable by anything besides other mages or lubriciously overwhelming firepower.
Every time I give the TSAB a viable defence against bullets, its shot down.

Barrier Jackets: No defence against kinetic impacts ().
Active Barriers: Too slow.
Device activated Barriers: Bullets are too fast.

And then there is the whole 'bullets travel at speed X so they'd penetrate barriers easilly' and so on and so on. If every possible defence the TSAB can mount against bullets is torn to pieces, how am I not supposed to believe that the analysts concider a gun to be superior to magic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Note italicized. There's also safety concerns (using weaker materials makes hitting them by accident all the less painful).
But wouldn't that also increase the danger? If the material is weaker, then standing on high grounds actually becomes dangerous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Top top shot, drawn lazily at a low detail level, looks OK, but Look at the preceding side shot scribbled in high detail.


A few cracks on the side, and the top doesn't look lazilly drawn to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It looks like the shot was made from Signum's POV in, so the bearing rate we see should have been Signum + Zest's movement rates, yet the Bearing Rate is still so slow.
If we were looking through Signum's eyes, then the camera wouldn't drag so slow, it would have been focused purely on Zest. Such shots are also made blatantly obvious that you're looking through the characters eyes, either through sound or visual effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The anime drawer might get lazy and stop drawing her soon, but if he's dedicated, at 10px, she's just at <10% of the distance at which she should disappear.

They do fade out eventually, but not until well after 30 frames. During those 30 frames, they are clocked at 60-100m/s at the end were 5px big. It is evident the drawer just ruled that they blended in the background.
Oh, so Laws of Animation start applying all of a sudden? That's good to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Which is exactly the same one as his "real device."
Erio and Caro noted that too, I point to Rein's explanation is episode 4: "Only the outside apearance is unchanged. We used only the basic frame and provided only minimal functions to let you get used to the feeling"

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
He means the subjective "looks pretty far" style of glance-and-evaluate stadia ranging. As I've told you back when we were on "arm-jerk stabilization", people have a tendency to overestimate distances when they just look at them, and perception is further skewed by preconception - they seem to go faster IF you think they are fast and farther if you think they are far away.
Just to double-check, but if something actually vanishes into the distance its safe to asume that a distance of at least 100 meters has been crossed, yes?

The DVD episodes are MKV format, which makes it rather difficult to do frame-by-frame calculations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I don't know about you, Keroko, but if I'm the commander and I can in safety, I'm definitely taking a look at the scene as soon as I can pass Briefing to someone else. This is called Commander's Reconaissance.
Uhm... I'm sort of confused, because I'm not entirely understanding what you are trying to tell me. Isn't that what happened? Hayate let Nanoha do the briefing after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Note also the word "real". It means they did have some experience in it, just that they didn't have enough to qualify as "real" (which is realistic, being almost fresh out of school, he can hardly be considered a vet). I'll relisten and "cut" the audio again tonight - fansubs are OK for getting gist but rather useless when every word counts.
Okay so never was an exageration, I'll wait for your translations then.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I must say I never understood what was the trouble against borgs. AMF, sure, they aren't used to fighting in it. Drones are mostly dangerous because of their AMF otherwise the Type Is at least are about as tough as a target autosphere. But borgs?
Cyborgs can probably take more of a beating, and can see through illusions easier (Teana only managed to pull this of because of her training with Subaru) they also can adjust to combat situations and adapt, making them tougher when you encounter them again.

I know, its not much, but its something.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
That's completely inconsistent with the boot camp we actually see them do.
Not boot camp, basic training. School. Studying. That sort of thing.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Having debated w/ you on that one, I can certify that your so-called explanations were handwaves. As in "the BJ somehow stopped it despite complete inadequacy in both strength and distance"
'somehow' were barriers generated by the Barrier Jacket. Anyway, I know this screws with the LoP (you've pounded that into my skull more times then I remember) but it beats them hitting the wall with nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Ahh, you hypocrite. I can't use that defense even under cover of a smokescreen but you can use it in the open?
It's called tactics. Use the enemies weapons against them. By using your explanation, I'm forcing both you and Tk to find the flaws in it, which I can use in amunition for my defence on the Barrier Jacket case.

Besides, you seem to have absolutely no problem throwing away stadia ranging and diving into the Laws of Animation when its convenient for you either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Further, Tk is actually correct. We hadn't seen it. The only reason I can use it is because it is the only physically plausible way to have explained a clearly observed result. It was a deduction where only one solution was left.

With your case, there are several other physically plausible options - one of them being "There's no defense." So, you can't justify the availability of an Active Guard deductively.
But if your theory would be correct, and devices can calculate and deply defeces in hundreds of seconds, they wuld be capable of doing the same for projectiles, no?
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Last edited by Keroko; 2008-04-08 at 06:31.
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Old 2008-04-08, 07:19   Link #1123
arkhangelsk
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Here's my comments for Tk3997's part

@The promised translation and commentary: 二人はちゃんとしたデバイスの使用経験が無かったですから...

Note bolded part. The debate-grade translation really should have been "Because (から) you two (二人は) have no usage experience (使用経験が無かった) with "decent / respectable / proper" devices (ちゃんとしたデバイスの)..."

So, basically, the translation mislaid the emphasis point. It is not on the "real" experience. It should have been on what kind of devices. Obviously, the devices used with RF6 will be a huge step up over the regular storage devices.

@The picture of a school: That's ... not ... basic ... training. That ... is ... a ... school! A ... civilian ... school ... It is a school that Signum suggested they go to during manga 13 or 14.

@Nanoha outrunning helos: Do you mean Ep12? Frankly, the helo was hardly roaring across the sky in that one... it was bobbing at the speed of a car... If you mean she outrunning the helo while the ramp is open - well, generally heloes slow down when the ramp's open

@Auto-Guard: Among other things, there is one huge advantage for any kind of fast moving defense. It can probably see the wall (which is large and flat) a lot more easily than it can see an oncoming bullet.

@Beating Bullets: How about using some planning, and applying a proper mix of suppressive fires and proper buddy tactics to pre-erect shields. That oughta save you from bullets at least... You don't need to win every bullet fight. If you win 8 or 9 of them, you have the edge.

I'll do my section later tonight.
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Old 2008-04-08, 08:49   Link #1124
arkhangelsk
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My computer crapped out on me, just as I finished taking down the Ep16 caps. LCD backlight went dead... exactly 364 days after purchase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
But wouldn't that also increase the danger? If the material is weaker, then standing on high grounds actually becomes dangerous.
As long as it isn't too weak, and supports the mage fine, it is OK. Weaker structures also presumably are less energy demanding.

Quote:
A few cracks on the side, and the top doesn't look lazilly drawn to me.
In comparison to the finely detailed side, yes it is.

Quote:
If we were looking through Signum's eyes, then the camera wouldn't drag so slow, it would have been focused purely on Zest. Such shots are also made blatantly obvious that you're looking through the characters eyes, either through sound or visual effects.
Oh, so when you track something with your eyes, you always successfully keep it centered?

Quote:
Oh, so Laws of Animation start applying all of a sudden? That's good to know.
Not really. I rechecked frame by frame. More than them shrinking to nothingness after 30 frames, their contrast to the background was reduced carefully - almost as if they were fading into the hazy visibility. So we just lost them in the haze.

Right after this discovery, my monitor died. I now type to you from my mom's antique.

Quote:
Just to double-check, but if something actually vanishes into the distance its safe to asume that a distance of at least 100 meters has been crossed, yes?
If it shrinks to nothingness. If it fades, what happens is less clear,

Quote:
The DVD episodes are MKV format, which makes it rather difficult to do frame-by-frame calculations.
They are close enough.

Quote:
Uhm... I'm sort of confused, because I'm not entirely understanding what you are trying to tell me. Isn't that what happened? Hayate let Nanoha do the briefing after all.
I'm saying right after the briefing (or she could have left it to Rein), Nanoha should actually have flown ahead and visually reconnoitered the upcoming battle zone.

Quote:
Okay so never was an exageration, I'll wait for your translations then.
And there they are above.

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Not boot camp, basic training. School. Studying. That sort of thing.
See my reply.

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It's called tactics. Use the enemies weapons against them. By using your explanation, I'm forcing both you and Tk to find the flaws in it, which I can use in amunition for my defence on the Barrier Jacket case.
When you use your enemy's weapons, the first thing to do is to understand their peculiarities.

Quote:
Besides, you seem to have absolutely no problem throwing away stadia ranging and diving into the Laws of Animation when its convenient for you either.
The ability to understand the limited resolving power of the media is not the same as ignoring such signs as BJ flapping, if that's what you want.

Quote:
But if your theory would be correct, and devices can calculate and deply defeces in hundreds of seconds, they wuld be capable of doing the same for projectiles, no?
One word: Acquisition.
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Old 2008-04-08, 10:03   Link #1125
Keroko
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Question, Ark. Could you translate this one? I might need what's on it, and I'd rather not make bold claims now and discover I was totally wrong later:

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Old 2008-04-08, 14:37   Link #1126
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Why don't we translate all those damn things? How many questions would be answered, ne?
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Old 2008-04-08, 14:43   Link #1127
Keroko
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'Cause that's a lot of work. Especially with the StrikerS ones.
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Old 2008-04-08, 15:06   Link #1128
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Why don't we translate all those damn things? How many questions would be answered, ne?
I've suggested that too, but some one thought it's not necessary
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Old 2008-04-08, 15:58   Link #1129
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
@The promised translation and commentary: 二人はちゃんとしたデバイスの使用経験が無かったですから...

Note bolded part. The debate-grade translation really should have been "Because (から) you two (二人は) have no usage experience (使用経験が無かった) with "decent / respectable / proper" devices (ちゃんとしたデバイスの)..."

So, basically, the translation mislaid the emphasis point. It is not on the "real" experience. It should have been on what kind of devices. Obviously, the devices used with RF6 will be a huge step up over the regular storage devices.
Okay, so this does counter Erio having never wielded one.

It does not, however, counter the fact that those training devices are lesser in performance then their live counterparts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
@The picture of a school: That's ... not ... basic ... training. That ... is ... a ... school! A ... civilian ... school ... It is a school that Signum suggested they go to during manga 13 or 14.
Exactly! A school! And what do they teach in school? The basics. Not 'how do I wield a spear-type device' -which is specialization- but the basics.

Though Erio would most likely be taught in the protection facillity. Fate is noted to have helped him study at any rate.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
@Nanoha outrunning helos: Do you mean Ep12? Frankly, the helo was hardly roaring across the sky in that one... it was bobbing at the speed of a car... If you mean she outrunning the helo while the ramp is open - well, generally heloes slow down when the ramp's open
While being shot? Vice is a failure as a pilot if he doesn't at least take evasive manouvers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
@Auto-Guard: Among other things, there is one huge advantage for any kind of fast moving defense. It can probably see the wall (which is large and flat) a lot more easily than it can see an oncoming bullet.
That's true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
@Beating Bullets: How about using some planning, and applying a proper mix of suppressive fires and proper buddy tactics to pre-erect shields. That oughta save you from bullets at least... You don't need to win every bullet fight. If you win 8 or 9 of them, you have the edge.
Then what about the arguments that even Barriers can't stop bullets? Pre-erecting shields don't have much use if bullets can just tear through them.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
My computer crapped out on me, just as I finished taking down the Ep16 caps. LCD backlight went dead... exactly 364 days after purchase.
Lemme guess, your warranty was only for one year?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
As long as it isn't too weak, and supports the mage fine, it is OK. Weaker structures also presumably are less energy demanding.
What about attacks? Attacks that normally don't do any severe damage a building can all of a sudden cause the thing to collapse.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
In comparison to the finely detailed side, yes it is.
Pff, look at the windows in the bridge, the things have repeated patterns they didn't even bother to fix. it goes from light, to dark, suddenly back to light in the exact same pattern. Not exactly finely detailed. Add a few cracks on the side and done. At least the top has propper shading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Oh, so when you track something with your eyes, you always successfully keep it centered?
I don't know how you look at things, but when I look at a moving object, I generally do. Either that, or my eyes flicker away because the object moves to damn fast. Neither applies here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Not really. I rechecked frame by frame. More than them shrinking to nothingness after 30 frames, their contrast to the background was reduced carefully - almost as if they were fading into the hazy visibility. So we just lost them in the haze.
Oh this is great. Now that stadias start working in my advantage for once, animation errors come into the fray. You have no idea how deliciously ironic this sounds.

Anyway, now we are moving into my territory. I can say with full convidence that this was an animation choice. You can do two things in animation to show increased distance: Shrink them, or fade them. Shrinking is often a more obvious choice, because it increased the suggestion of the object moving away. However, there is a limit to how much you can shrink them before it becomes hard to control or find the points. Taking a screenshot and copying it in photoshop, the two are about two pixels wide, discounting radial blur. This is more then adequate to start fading. Now, the reason they blur them to make the effect of them vanishing more realistic. 2 pixels, hell even 1 pixel or not, simply cutting them off will be noticed. Fading provides a much smoother transition, which increases the end-result quallity.

Where do you think "fading into the distance" comes from?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Right after this discovery, my monitor died. I now type to you from my mom's antique.
Ouch. How antique are we talking?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
They are close enough.
No no, I meant that I don't have a program I can use to watch frame-by-frame. Premiere doesn't swallow MKV, neither does directsub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I'm saying right after the briefing (or she could have left it to Rein), Nanoha should actually have flown ahead and visually reconnoitered the upcoming battle zone.
I see. However, shouldn't that job be Hayate's? Nanoha and Fate's job was to provide air superiority after all.

Oh, I just remembered. Rein was at the scene giving commands. Does that count?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
When you use your enemy's weapons, the first thing to do is to understand their peculiarities.
That would require me to read your mind. I saw an excuse to put a hole in your theory, and I took it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The ability to understand the limited resolving power of the media is not the same as ignoring such signs as BJ flapping, if that's what you want.
Technically, it is. There are various things that can be explained using animatory choices that would otherwise make no sense. If you honestly try to tell me they should have animated the flight scenes without flapping hair and clothing, I'll laugh at you and welcome you to the land of low grades when you do an education in animation.
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Old 2008-04-08, 18:21   Link #1130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
@Beating Bullets: How about using some planning, and applying a proper mix of suppressive fires and proper buddy tactics to pre-erect shields. That oughta save you from bullets at least... You don't need to win every bullet fight. If you win 8 or 9 of them, you have the edge.
Quote:
Then what about the arguments that even Barriers can't stop bullets? Pre-erecting shields don't have much use if bullets can just tear through them.
Ahem. I'm probably going to get torn into for this...but...according to the manga:

BARRIERS DO NOT STOP BULLETS. THIS IS BECAUSE BARRIERS DO NOT STOP ANYTHING!.

if we take the Manga's wording , then barriers allow the user to 'gently avoid the attack' (according to my version's tranlsation)

In other words, the barrier does not stop the attack, so much as redirect it.

that is, a Barrier is a deflection mechanism. it does not stop the attack, but deflects it. Deflection is a well documented and widely used means of easily increasing the defensive ability of armour without increasing the thickness.

In which case, I have no difficulty believing a barrier could disperse the energy of an attack by using a sloped projection of much lower energy than a shield (which stops attacks through direct energy opposal) to cause the bolt (or the constituents of the bolt) to ricochet off carrying most of the energy with them.

In the case of bullets, then, rather than saying that barriers can simply stop bullets, it then becomes more a possibility that the bullets simply are intercepted by a sloped surface with the ideal angle of incidence to redirect them with minimal energy.

Best of all, unlike with the solid armour of a tank, a barrier is malleable and can be reshaped on the fly; Whereas a tank's sloped armour can be defeated by altering the angle of attack, the Barrier would simply react to the different angle and reshape itself to maintain the ideal.

As for the other means of defeating sloped armour, that of high momentum, well, that seems to also work against Barriers too.

Melee weapons, then would work ideally against barriers because:
1: they possess greater mass and momentum Than the small package of a bullet or the easily dispersed small packages that would make up a particle type energy attack.
2: the user can actively fight the deflection and keep the blade on course despite the barrier attempting to deflect it (kind of like fighting against the grain of wood when using a saw; the saw wants to follow the path of least resistance, but the user can 'force' it to cut where they want)

Of course, this doesn't wholly account for 'barriers' allowing mages to be punted through concrete walls etc. I admit that that is troublesome to this theory, however, it's possible that the barrier could, when suffering a large impact or the like, 'give' like a crumple zone or hydraulic damper, thereby again redirecting the energy by:
1: prolonging the length of time taken for the energy involved to be transferred, thus passing the kinetic energy onto the mage oin bite-sized chunks rather than all at once
2: absorbing some of the energy involved to do work other than that intended, by using it to deform the barrier rather than be transferred to the mage
3: adopting a sahpe most conducive to the redirection of the enrgy spreading it over the largest possible surface area and scattering as much of it off through deflection as it can by reactively altering in shape throughout the impact.

how does this match up, according to your opinions?
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Old 2008-04-08, 18:37   Link #1131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormturmoil View Post
Ahem. I'm probably going to get torn into for this...but...according to the manga:

BARRIERS DO NOT STOP BULLETS. THIS IS BECAUSE BARRIERS DO NOT STOP ANYTHING!.

if we take the Manga's wording , then barriers allow the user to 'gently avoid the attack' (according to my version's tranlsation)

In other words, the barrier does not stop the attack, so much as redirect it.

that is, a Barrier is a deflection mechanism. it does not stop the attack, but deflects it. Deflection is a well documented and widely used means of easily increasing the defensive ability of armour without increasing the thickness.

In which case, I have no difficulty believing a barrier could disperse the energy of an attack by using a sloped projection of much lower energy than a shield (which stops attacks through direct energy opposal) to cause the bolt (or the constituents of the bolt) to ricochet off carrying most of the energy with them.

In the case of bullets, then, rather than saying that barriers can simply stop bullets, it then becomes more a possibility that the bullets simply are intercepted by a sloped surface with the ideal angle of incidence to redirect them with minimal energy.

Best of all, unlike with the solid armour of a tank, a barrier is malleable and can be reshaped on the fly; Whereas a tank's sloped armour can be defeated by altering the angle of attack, the Barrier would simply react to the different angle and reshape itself to maintain the ideal.

As for the other means of defeating sloped armour, that of high momentum, well, that seems to also work against Barriers too.

Melee weapons, then would work ideally against barriers because:
1: they possess greater mass and momentum Than the small package of a bullet or the easily dispersed small packages that would make up a particle type energy attack.
2: the user can actively fight the deflection and keep the blade on course despite the barrier attempting to deflect it (kind of like fighting against the grain of wood when using a saw; the saw wants to follow the path of least resistance, but the user can 'force' it to cut where they want)

Of course, this doesn't wholly account for 'barriers' allowing mages to be punted through concrete walls etc. I admit that that is troublesome to this theory, however, it's possible that the barrier could, when suffering a large impact or the like, 'give' like a crumple zone or hydraulic damper, thereby again redirecting the energy by:
1: prolonging the length of time taken for the energy involved to be transferred, thus passing the kinetic energy onto the mage oin bite-sized chunks rather than all at once
2: absorbing some of the energy involved to do work other than that intended, by using it to deform the barrier rather than be transferred to the mage
3: adopting a sahpe most conducive to the redirection of the enrgy spreading it over the largest possible surface area and scattering as much of it off through deflection as it can by reactively altering in shape throughout the impact.

how does this match up, according to your opinions?
That's actually a really good way of describing one of the three known defenses in Nanoha. I like that.

Here's a cookie :3
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Old 2008-04-08, 19:08   Link #1132
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It's possible, of course, that a barrier simply has a load limit - it's only capable of absorbing so much force - and thus can be purely overwhelmed. We know that mages aren't completely immune to shock from being thrown into things - even if Nanoha or Fate get thrown into or through a concrete wall, they're not totally unfazed. So it's not unreasonable to assume that the barrier absorbs minor impacts completely (chucked bottle?) but only a percentage of impacts over its maximum strength (through the wall).

Still, you're overstating the difference between deflection and "stopping". True, you can play games with the angle of incidence to reduce the amount of "stopping" force you need to generate for a particular attack - it's pretty easy to bounce what would only be a grazing shot completely outside the body. On the other hand, if the shot is coming in dead-on, you can't really use a deflection trick, as it doesn't do any good to concentrate your power to bounce a shot that ends up in the wearer's ribs anyway! (Of course, if you're talking barriers generated by an intelligent device and its associated barrier jacket, it's entirely possible that they could modify the flight path of the mage such that the shot isn't coming in dead-on, and thus "generate a miss"... that is, evasive action to turn a direct hit into a grazing shot, and the barrier turns the grazing shot into a miss.)

Then again, we have to face up to the fact that deflection normally works -really- well against melee weapons; just read up on a treatise on proper shieldwork sometime. Then again, it's not unreasonable to assume that the intelligent-device weapons, used in melee combat in the series, are on a totally different level of power than an ordinary stick swung by a little girl! So it's entirely possible that the barrier jackets attempt to play games with deflection, but are purely overpowered in close range combat by cartridge-equipped devices (or, heck, just Nanoha's plain old Raising Heart in S1 - or Bardiche, except when you are a lightning scythe, you don't have to assume it hits harder than normal farm implements!)

Unfortunately, the visual evidence doesn't back up that theory either. Think back to the fight between Signum and Fate in S1 - on a couple of occasions, we see some "this would have hit except for the barrier from the jacket" swings. But the field from those swings isn't deflecting, it's just providing protection (in these cases, it's centered around the tip of a slashing weapon). So, again, we have to conclude that the barrier is just a plain old defensive-type, and one that can be pierced (both Fate and Signum take a scratch or two in that encounter).

For that matter, we don't -know- that a normal barrier jacket can protect the user against bullets (or, at any rate, all bullets; there's a big difference between a .22 derringer and a .50 sniper rifle.) The only reason we're assuming that is because we don't ever see someone try to do it, and guns are a fairly unsophisticated technology - presumably if it were effective against mages, non-mages would employ it? But we don't see any guns or any non-mages in combat, so we're left to assume that they're not useful on the battlefield against a mage, which implies...

That said, stopping a high-velocity bullet (or deflecting it, even) is a much harder proposition than stopping a slower impact, since kinetic energy increases geometrically with velocity and only directly with mass. In many ways, it's -easier- to make a field that would protect you against getting blown through a wall than it would be to make a field that would protect you against a sniper.

Then again... (evil thought...) Maybe Mid just doesn't use guns because they never really employed them in warfare? In the real world, gunpowder weaponry was developed to reduce fortifications, and for use on massed bodies of troops. In a world where you have widespread use of magic, would there be the same impetus to develop gunpowder weapons? It's entirely possible that Mid never really employed normal guns in warfare at all, and went straight from spells to nukes...
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Old 2008-04-08, 21:08   Link #1133
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Okay, so this does counter Erio having never wielded one.

It does not, however, counter the fact that those training devices are lesser in performance then their live counterparts.
"Lesser" - yet another "fluffy" term w/ no absolute reference frame

Quote:
Exactly! A school! And what do they teach in school? The basics. Not 'how do I wield a spear-type device' -which is specialization- but the basics.
I know we have language differences, but most people call that "elementary or primary civilian education", not military or paramilitary basic training.

Quote:
While being shot? Vice is a failure as a pilot if he doesn't at least take evasive manouvers.
See Ep12. Come on, we've laughed at Vice over this already, especially when Alto shows she has a better understanding of such things in Ep21 or so.

Quote:
Then what about the arguments that even Barriers can't stop bullets? Pre-erecting shields don't have much use if bullets can just tear through them.
I said to erect "shields". Hard things.

Quote:
Lemme guess, your warranty was only for one year?
Yes. Today's the 365th, precisely. I'm seeing if I can get my warranty guy to admit it was broken during the warranty.

Quote:
What about attacks? Attacks that normally don't do any severe damage a building can all of a sudden cause the thing to collapse.
If you are standing on a building that suddenly collapses, you can use the emergency flotation stuff they describe to make it a survivable experience. If you get thrown into a building, the only thing that might save you is the building crumbling nicely to almost act like a cushion.

Quote:
Oh this is great. Now that stadias start working in my advantage for once, animation errors come into the fray. You have no idea how deliciously ironic this sounds.
Actually, animation errors came into the fray because of small sizes. All errors are expanded at small sizes due to the small amount of source data which increases the effect of noise.

Quote:
Anyway, now we are moving into my territory. I can say with full convidence that this was an animation choice. You can do two things in animation to show increased distance: Shrink them, or fade them. Shrinking is often a more obvious choice, because it increased the suggestion of the object moving away. However, there is a limit to how much you can shrink them before it becomes hard to control or find the points. Taking a screenshot and copying it in photoshop, the two are about two pixels wide, discounting radial blur. This is more then adequate to start fading. Now, the reason they blur them to make the effect of them vanishing more realistic. 2 pixels, hell even 1 pixel or not, simply cutting them off will be noticed. Fading provides a much smoother transition, which increases the end-result quallity.

Where do you think "fading into the distance" comes from?
Actually, fading into the distance represents the real life problem of things starting to lose contrast due to the limited visibility of air and the limited focusing and resolving power of the measuring instrument (Bayer mask?). I'm actually surprised how well the whole thing was done.

I was actually relieved they did that. I won't know about quality, but the decision to fade actually also substantially increased the realism and thus the SoD applicability as well as a dampener to our new stadia ranger's hopes. You see, when you get down to such small pixel scales, the difference b/w 2px and 1px is measured as well over 150 meters. So you should actually have cursed them for fading, if your goal is to prove high speeds - you could have gotten a MUCH higher speed had they shrank instead of faded!

IIRC (comp's broken), they took something like 40-45 frames before they faded out completely. Let's take 45 to be conservative. If the last frame before they faded completely is 1px, the range will have been at least 377m. In 45 frames that would have been 905km/h, in 40 frames 1019km/h - which is a perfectly competitive speed with all but supercruising fighters, and very good considering they are about to target man sized targets with visual acquisition systems - a real modern fighter would have had to slow down to acquire and hit them properly.

At 2px, the speed's HALVED.

Quote:
Ouch. How antique are we talking?
It took one minute to load Internet Explorer 6.0 - how's that...

Quote:
No no, I meant that I don't have a program I can use to watch frame-by-frame. Premiere doesn't swallow MKV, neither does directsub.
Personally, I just settle for grabbing frames with Media Player Classic and the codec's frame capture function. Not perfect, but good enough for the job.

Quote:
I see. However, shouldn't that job be Hayate's? Nanoha and Fate's job was to provide air superiority after all.
She's also there as the commander of the Stars.

Quote:
Oh, I just remembered. Rein was at the scene giving commands. Does that count?
That's front-line command, but not commander's reconaissance. That will involve a commander (Rein's an aide), and the reconaissance part will mean Rein actually gets there before the main body and take a good look-see of the terrain and so on.

Quote:
Technically, it is. There are various things that can be explained using animatory choices that would otherwise make no sense. If you honestly try to tell me they should have animated the flight scenes without flapping hair and clothing, I'll laugh at you and welcome you to the land of low grades when you do an education in animation.
If I'm drawing a flying armored knight with hard armor that covers him from head to toe incl. hair, should I make the steel plates of that armor flap? His cape might flap if I need a flapper, but his armor?
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Old 2008-04-08, 21:15   Link #1134
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Brains explode and is left running around screaming "Physics! T3h Physics!!!"

Gawd I can't even vaguely contribute or comprehend more than 50% of all the posts since I first posted handwavium here. No wonder there are far more engineers than Medicine and Life Science in the Genshiken@UWA; its a statistical reflection of the greater otaku population.
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Old 2008-04-08, 21:44   Link #1135
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by Avatar notADV View Post
In a world where you have widespread use of magic, would there be the same impetus to develop gunpowder weapons?
Given that that widespread is still not a majority of the population, I'd say say yes.

Quote:
It's entirely possible that Mid never really employed normal guns in warfare at all, and went straight from spells to nukes...
They showed cannons when talking about "mass weapons". It's a small step from large cannons to handheld guns. in either direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
No no, I meant that I don't have a program I can use to watch frame-by-frame.
Use Aegisub. It can do that. Older versions had a bug that didn't load MKV timecodes properly, but that's been dealt with in the newer versions. Go to that site, take the current version.
For frame-by-frame, use ctrl-G to jump to a frame, then you can use the arrow keys to go frame-by-frame.
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Old 2008-04-08, 21:53   Link #1136
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Of course, keep in mind that even looking at something in Aegisub is only as good as your video encode - the frames in your video encode are not guaranteed to be equivalent to the frames in the original broadcast, on the master, what have you. (Something that's depressingly easy to screw up in encoding... had to bounce a file recently because somebody ticked the wrong box when they were encoding it for me. Hard to spot, too, especially if your audio sync is already iffy...)
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Old 2008-04-09, 00:15   Link #1137
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by stormturmoil View Post
Ahem. I'm probably going to get torn into for this...but...according to the manga:

BARRIERS DO NOT STOP BULLETS. THIS IS BECAUSE BARRIERS DO NOT STOP ANYTHING!.

if we take the Manga's wording , then barriers allow the user to 'gently avoid the attack' (according to my version's tranlsation)
Let's use the actual Japanese for something this delicate:

攻撃を防御膜で相殺して、柔らかく受け止めること旨とするもっとも汎用性の高い防御。

Far from "avoiding" or "deflecting" the attack, it actually says: "softly (柔らかく) taking (受け止める) the attack".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Question, Ark. Could you translate this one? I might need what's on it, and I'd rather not make bold claims now and discover I was totally wrong later:
Spoiler for Image:
It says:
The high concentration field filling the Cradle that prevents magical bonding.

The reason for not doing a complete cut off is because magic is an extremely efficient and good energy source for Midchildra, and thus is essential to the daily activities and machinery usage of the people on board.

It is thought that the Cradle's crew and knights are trained to resist AMF, and thus can use magic against intruders who are having difficulty using magic, thus increasing the defensive capability of the ground.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-04-09 at 00:43.
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Old 2008-04-09, 09:34   Link #1138
Keroko
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
"Lesser" - yet another "fluffy" term w/ no absolute reference frame
As so many of both our proofs. However, lesser does not mean full, that much is certain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I know we have language differences, but most people call that "elementary or primary civilian education", not military or paramilitary basic training.
Propper Dutch for elementary school is "basis school" literally translated that means basic school. And I never mentioned millitairy training, now did I? I said fresh from basic, and immediately sought to rectify the misunderstanding I created by mentioning I was talking about school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
See Ep12. Come on, we've laughed at Vice over this already, especially when Alto shows she has a better understanding of such things in Ep21 or so.
Poor Vice. 7Arcs screwed him over badly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I said to erect "shields". Hard things.
Both Shields and Barriers are hard things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Yes. Today's the 365th, precisely. I'm seeing if I can get my warranty guy to admit it was broken during the warranty.
Urg. That sucks. Good luck, I hope the guy is the reasonable type.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
If you are standing on a building that suddenly collapses, you can use the emergency flotation stuff they describe to make it a survivable experience. If you get thrown into a building, the only thing that might save you is the building crumbling nicely to almost act like a cushion.
Emergency flotation stuff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, animation errors came into the fray because of small sizes. All errors are expanded at small sizes due to the small amount of source data which increases the effect of noise.
Yes, but its amazing that it only comes into the fray now, even though it was always dismissed before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, fading into the distance represents the real life problem of things starting to lose contrast due to the limited visibility of air and the limited focusing and resolving power of the measuring instrument (Bayer mask?). I'm actually surprised how well the whole thing was done.
It's a standard animating technique, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I was actually relieved they did that. I won't know about quality, but the decision to fade actually also substantially increased the realism and thus the SoD applicability as well as a dampener to our new stadia ranger's hopes. You see, when you get down to such small pixel scales, the difference b/w 2px and 1px is measured as well over 150 meters. So you should actually have cursed them for fading, if your goal is to prove high speeds - you could have gotten a MUCH higher speed had they shrank instead of faded!
Like I said, shrinking is a no-no at certain sizes. When the points reach a certain size, you can do one of many things. Scene shift before they vanish, Team-rocket-ish 'pings' (though that limits realism in return for comic effect, a flash without a ping sound is often used for things which emit one source of light or another) or fade are a few examples, but you do not cut them off. Ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
IIRC (comp's broken), they took something like 40-45 frames before they faded out completely. Let's take 45 to be conservative. If the last frame before they faded completely is 1px, the range will have been at least 377m. In 45 frames that would have been 905km/h, in 40 frames 1019km/h - which is a perfectly competitive speed with all but supercruising fighters, and very good considering they are about to target man sized targets with visual acquisition systems - a real modern fighter would have had to slow down to acquire and hit them properly.

At 2px, the speed's HALVED.
2 pixels, discounting radial. Which still leaves us with a good 450 or 505 km/h, which I am definetly not complaining about.

I'll double check the framecount when I get back home, and throw in Zest for good measure.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It took one minute to load Internet Explorer 6.0 - how's that...
Geh... a miracle you even take the time to post. I couldn't stand working on such a thing >_<

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
She's also there as the commander of the Stars.
Ah, I see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
That's front-line command, but not commander's reconaissance. That will involve a commander (Rein's an aide), and the reconaissance part will mean Rein actually gets there before the main body and take a good look-see of the terrain and so on.
But they already had visual reconasis done, hadn't they? They knew the target, knew the location, knew the terain, knew their jobs and knew what to expect (with the exception of the Type-2, which would have meant Nanoha would have to clear the entire train to find out).

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
If I'm drawing a flying armored knight with hard armor that covers him from head to toe incl. hair, should I make the steel plates of that armor flap? His cape might flap if I need a flapper, but his armor?
Depends, you'd be surprised how many flapable points armor can have. Sideguards and hanging mail would flap, for example. Shoulders too, depending on the type.If its an armor with no flapable points whatsoever, just solid plate with little to no abillity for movement then it won't. But then again, having such an armor fly won't be the quickest choice in animation anyway, exactly because of that.

And a return challenge for you: can you explain to me in a way that does not defy the laws of physics, how in the world Vita's hat stays on top of her head, even though she's flyin at high speed or bashing someone's skull in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Use Aegisub. It can do that. Older versions had a bug that didn't load MKV timecodes properly, but that's been dealt with in the newer versions. Go to that site, take the current version.
For frame-by-frame, use ctrl-G to jump to a frame, then you can use the arrow keys to go frame-by-frame.
Thanks, I'll download that one when I get home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Of course, keep in mind that even looking at something in Aegisub is only as good as your video encode - the frames in your video encode are not guaranteed to be equivalent to the frames in the original broadcast, on the master, what have you. (Something that's depressingly easy to screw up in encoding... had to bounce a file recently because somebody ticked the wrong box when they were encoding it for me. Hard to spot, too, especially if your audio sync is already iffy...)
True, though I don't think Ark will like this one, since it pretty much voids his stadia rangings as 'innacurate'

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It says:
The high concentration field filling the Cradle that prevents magical bonding.

The reason for not doing a complete cut off is because magic is an extremely efficient and good energy source for Midchildra, and thus is essential to the daily activities and machinery usage of the people on board.

It is thought that the Cradle's crew and knights are trained to resist AMF, and thus can use magic against intruders who are having difficulty using magic, thus increasing the defensive capability of the ground.
Right, nothing usefull for the conversation at hand. The energy source bit is good evidence that most powerplants do indeed use magical energy instead of conventional forms though. Thanks for the translation.
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Old 2008-04-09, 09:59   Link #1139
Wild Goose
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A quick query: If the Commander is expected to conduct recon...

the what the HELL is the point of the Recon Platoon then?

Also, let's consider: Forwards, Nanoha and Fate are being scrambled to intercept the threat ASAP. There's barely time for recon - and the flying drones are inbound. Are you really going to insist, ark, that Nanoha should have reconned the train first, ignoring the flight drones which were a more serious threat to the Forwards and the helo?
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Old 2008-04-09, 10:29   Link #1140
Kha
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Also, Saint Church is already doing the recon; they had a team tracking the Relic, and I believe that same team found the train under attack, raised the alarm at the Church, which was then passed onto to Riot 6 command, who then pushed the button to turn out the troops.

Problem is, other than the mention of "our people have been tracking this Relic", we've no idea who in the world specifically is looking at the Relic.
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