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Old 2008-04-09, 12:52   Link #1141
Keroko
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Double checked stadias, from start to complete fade takes 35 frames for Tre and Sette.

Zest uses the star version of disapearing into the horizon, and he reaches that in 17 frames.
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Last edited by Keroko; 2008-04-09 at 14:27.
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Old 2008-04-09, 22:36   Link #1142
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Double checked stadias, from start to complete fade takes 35 frames for Tre and Sette.
Hmm, IIRC it was a bit more than that. Maybe our start references are different (curses broken laptop backlight). But let's work with that for now (when you can't stadia range, you are at the mercy of someone who can and does - don't you enjoy the feeling a bit?)

Quote:
Zest uses the star version of disapearing into the horizon, and he reaches that in 17 frames.
Yes, and the star lasts for IIRC over 10 frames. The "star" means distance is indeterminate starting from frame 17.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
A quick query: If the Commander is expected to conduct recon...

the what the HELL is the point of the Recon Platoon then?

Also, let's consider: Forwards, Nanoha and Fate are being scrambled to intercept the threat ASAP. There's barely time for recon - and the flying drones are inbound. Are you really going to insist, ark, that Nanoha should have reconned the train first, ignoring the flight drones which were a more serious threat to the Forwards and the helo?
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Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Also, Saint Church is already doing the recon; they had a team tracking the Relic, and I believe that same team found the train under attack, raised the alarm at the Church, which was then passed onto to Riot 6 command, who then pushed the button to turn out the troops.

Problem is, other than the mention of "our people have been tracking this Relic", we've no idea who in the world specifically is looking at the Relic.
Granting generously that the Saint Church is acting as recce platoon for this one, a Commander's Reconaissance is a form of recce. It neither replaces nor can be fully replaced by another form of recce.

Of course, it is excusable to skip it if circumstances don't allow it (it is potentially excusable to skip most forms of recon and pray for the best in time-limiting situations). But since Nanoha is supposed to be faster than the helo (according to Keroko), she should have time to do this, and given that it is the team's first job, they need every edge of predictability and control - which comes from doing all forms of recce.

What we should have seen is Nanoha leaving the bulk of the briefing to Rein and moving ahead to conduct her recon before her unit's first commitment. That she might get interrupted by the drones is another matter. Effort and process, not necessarily results, are being evaluated.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
As so many of both our proofs. However, lesser does not mean full, that much is certain.
The magnitude of the difference is uncertain.

Quote:
Propper Dutch for elementary school is "basis school" literally translated that means basic school. And I never mentioned millitairy training, now did I? I said fresh from basic, and immediately sought to rectify the misunderstanding I created by mentioning I was talking about school.
Are you Dutch? Anyway, Erio, as a TSAB member, must have undergone basic military training.

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Both Shields and Barriers are hard things.
Read my recent translation. Does "softly taking" the attack say "hard things" to you?

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Emergency flotation stuff?
The 1st DVD Booklet, where they mentioned Flight magic.

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Yes, but its amazing that it only comes into the fray now, even though it was always dismissed before.
It is rare to work with such small sizes.

Quote:
It's a standard animating technique, really.
It is standard and looks good to us because it represents reality.

Quote:
2 pixels, discounting radial. Which still leaves us with a good 450 or 505 km/h, which I am definetly not complaining about.
Be happier, if it really is 35 frames, it'll be about 162m/s or 582km/h, which is the speed of a late-WWII fighter, and that in dash speed (Ride Impulse). That's no problem for you?

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Geh... a miracle you even take the time to post. I couldn't stand working on such a thing >_<
Professionalism, you see.

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But they already had visual reconasis done, hadn't they? They knew the target, knew the location, knew the terain, knew their jobs and knew what to expect (with the exception of the Type-2, which would have meant Nanoha would have to clear the entire train to find out).
Actually, considering that Gadgets emit very detectable energy, it is highly likely Type III's exact location can be fixed with a low alt flyby of the entire train.

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And a return challenge for you: can you explain to me in a way that does not defy the laws of physics, how in the world Vita's hat stays on top of her head, even though she's flyin at high speed or bashing someone's skull in?
Glue.

Quote:
True, though I don't think Ark will like this one, since it pretty much voids his stadia rangings as 'innacurate'
Actually, his complaint is not about spatial accuracy, but about the time accuracy. No big deal when you have dozens of frames to work with (one or two frames out is but 10%). If you only have 2-3, the accuracy could never have been very high to begin with.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-04-09 at 23:05.
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Old 2008-04-10, 01:01   Link #1143
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Hmm, IIRC it was a bit more than that. Maybe our start references are different (curses broken laptop backlight). But let's work with that for now
Nope, frame 26013 to 26047. Slight miscalculation on my part, its 34 frames. My starting reference is as soon as the corner of Tre's face apears on the screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
(when you can't stadia range, you are at the mercy of someone who can and does - don't you enjoy the feeling a bit?)
Ooooh, yes. Especially since it is working in my advantage for once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Yes, and the star lasts for IIRC over 10 frames. The "star" means distance is indeterminate starting from frame 17.
Start of Zest flight: 17255
Start of Star: 17272
Total fade of star: 17284

17 frames untill Zest disapears into a star, 12 more untill the star dissapears. A total of 29 frames.

But remember, star signifies 'target has passed beyond horizon' in animation terms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Granting generously that the Saint Church is acting as recce platoon for this one, a Commander's Reconaissance is a form of recce. It neither replaces nor can be fully replaced by another form of recce.

Of course, it is excusable to skip it if circumstances don't allow it (it is potentially excusable to skip most forms of recon and pray for the best in time-limiting situations). But since Nanoha is supposed to be faster than the helo (according to Keroko), she should have time to do this, and given that it is the team's first job, they need every edge of predictability and control - which comes from doing all forms of recce.

What we should have seen is Nanoha leaving the bulk of the briefing to Rein and moving ahead to conduct her recon before her unit's first commitment. That she might get interrupted by the drones is another matter. Effort and process, not necessarily results, are being evaluated.
So... the commander does the reccon? So if the commander goes out for reconasis, and gets shot by a sniper, he just goes back and tell his men that there's sniper out the- oh wait.

Now, I don't know much about the millitairy, but last I recall going out by yourself wasn't exactly the smartest of moves in the army. Now its a must?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The magnitude of the difference is uncertain.
But the fact that is that its not full power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Are you Dutch? Anyway, Erio, as a TSAB member, must have undergone basic military training.
Yup. Hence my theory that the TSAB might be based on the Dutch army, since theres a lot of similarities. Anyway, furher research says that Erio has undergone millitairy training (the manga mentions his status being upgrades from 'trainee' to 'private third class') but concidering the timeline, he'd at most recieve the 3 month training course the Aces recieved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Read my recent translation. Does "softly taking" the attack say "hard things" to you?
Do soft things generally shatter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The 1st DVD Booklet, where they mentioned Flight magic.
Don't have that booklet. T_T

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It is rare to work with such small sizes.
Still, it makes me grin at the irony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It is standard and looks good to us because it represents reality.
Actually, its just 'crap, uhm, how do I make this look good? Oh, I'll fade them. *does so* Yeah, that looks good!' after which you start using it more often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Be happier, if it really is 35 frames, it'll be about 162m/s or 582km/h, which is the speed of a late-WWII fighter, and that in dash speed (Ride Impulse). That's no problem for you?
Concidering Sette, who does not have Ride Impulse, moves just as fast, yes. There is no reason to believe they are 'dashing' in that scene.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, considering that Gadgets emit very detectable energy, it is highly likely Type III's exact location can be fixed with a low alt flyby of the entire train.
Concidering they knew the locations of the Type-1 gadgets, I don't think that's entirely true.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Glue.
Right. Now a serious answer please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, his complaint is not about spatial accuracy, but about the time accuracy. No big deal when you have dozens of frames to work with (one or two frames out is but 10%). If you only have 2-3, the accuracy could never have been very high to begin with.
I'm using the DVD encodes from Coldlight, just so you know.
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Old 2008-04-10, 01:59   Link #1144
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Nope, frame 26013 to 26047. Slight miscalculation on my part, its 34 frames. My starting reference is as soon as the corner of Tre's face apears on the screen.
Hmm, same reference I used.

Quote:
Start of Zest flight: 17255
Start of Star: 17272
Total fade of star: 17284

17 frames untill Zest disapears into a star, 12 more untill the star dissapears. A total of 29 frames.

But remember, star signifies 'target has passed beyond horizon' in animation terms.
In stadia ranging terms, the usable data range is only from 17255-17271 in this case.

Quote:
So... the commander does the reccon? So if the commander goes out for reconasis, and gets shot by a sniper, he just goes back and tell his men that there's sniper out the- oh wait.

Now, I don't know much about the millitairy, but last I recall going out by yourself wasn't exactly the smartest of moves in the army. Now its a must?
As a front line leader, a junior officer who has not learned to hide the fact he's an officer from distant observation will likely die as his unit is brought into commitment anyway.

Of course, commander's reconaissance is not riskless, but a commander risking his butt is better than him making a mistake in judgment and sending his whole unit (which includes Commander) into the maw of the same sniper, no?

It is kind of like whether a commander should command his tanks with his head out or buttoned up in his tank. Of course, the latter is safer for him individually, but he usually also sees a lot less with those vision blocks and thus his ability to control the battle decreases. If they run into an ambush, he dies anyway with his whole unit. Thus, it is considered preferable to have heads out unless there's a reason (obviously, if arty is falling you button up).

Quote:
Do soft things generally shatter?
Not generally, but it could be relatively soft as a whole and still break into little pieces. Think of punching a stack of potato chips. Overall, the feeling will be relatively soft, but the individual potato chips should shatter quite nicely

Quote:
Don't have that booklet. T_T
It is available on the web.

Quote:
Still, it makes me grin at the irony.
I'm smiling. Because you are learning the beauties of stadia ranging

Quote:
Actually, its just 'crap, uhm, how do I make this look good? Oh, I'll fade them. *does so* Yeah, that looks good!' after which you start using it more often.
And there's a deep reason as to why it looked good.

Quote:
Concidering Sette, who does not have Ride Impulse, moves just as fast, yes. There is no reason to believe they are 'dashing' in that scene.
Actually, Sette was definitely lagging.

Quote:
Concidering they knew the locations of the Type-1 gadgets, I don't think that's entirely true.
IIRC, they knew they were somewhere inside the train. They don't know their exact locations.

Quote:
Right. Now a serious answer please.
Tape.

Now, I wasn't really joking about these two answers as their brevity makes it seem. One possibility is that it was magically bonded to the head so it doesn't fly off as easily. The other possibility is that the barrier automatically wraps around the hat and helps keep it from flying off.

Quote:
I'm using the DVD encodes from Coldlight, just so you know.
What did you think I was using...
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Old 2008-04-10, 01:59   Link #1145
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Granting generously that the Saint Church is acting as recce platoon for this one, a Commander's Reconaissance is a form of recce. It neither replaces nor can be fully replaced by another form of recce.

Of course, it is excusable to skip it if circumstances don't allow it (it is potentially excusable to skip most forms of recon and pray for the best in time-limiting situations). But since Nanoha is supposed to be faster than the helo (according to Keroko), she should have time to do this, and given that it is the team's first job, they need every edge of predictability and control - which comes from doing all forms of recce.

What we should have seen is Nanoha leaving the bulk of the briefing to Rein and moving ahead to conduct her recon before her unit's first commitment. That she might get interrupted by the drones is another matter. Effort and process, not necessarily results, are being evaluated.
...so you're saying that in essence Nanoha should have afterburnered her way past the drones, ignoring the fact that if she doesn't provide top cover the drones will cream the helo, recce'd the train, then return to the helo?

Quote:
Actually, considering that Gadgets emit very detectable energy, it is highly likely Type III's exact location can be fixed with a low alt flyby of the entire train.
Wasn't it powered down? Besides, wouldn't the energy sigs of the other Type IIs and Is mask the signal? (In like manner to how you can deliberately increase emissions to hid an EMCON'ed ship amongst non-EMCON ships or a sub running silent can hid itself in ambeint noise.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
So... the commander does the reccon? So if the commander goes out for reconasis, and gets shot by a sniper, he just goes back and tell his men that there's sniper out the- oh wait.

Now, I don't know much about the millitairy, but last I recall going out by yourself wasn't exactly the smartest of moves in the army. Now its a must?
Regarding Commander's Recon, I think ark is referring to the principle that the commander must survey the target first before attacking.

The problem though, is that it's not always practical or feasible to do so. For example, Iraq; raids on terrorist safehouses rarely have the time for a Commander's Recon, simply because there's not enough time to deploy even a recon platoon - again, as ark has admitted, when you're limited by time, you're limited by time. That said it's not totally useless or unused - Commander's Recon was much practised during WW2 - Patton surveyed Kasserine Pass, McAuliffe checked the 101st's defensive positions in the Battle of the Bulge. It depends from situation to situation.

From what I recall reading, Commander's Recon is, as with most things, practised where practical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It is kind of like whether a commander should command his tanks with his head out or buttoned up in his tank. Of course, the latter is safer for him individually, but he usually also sees a lot less with those vision blocks and thus his ability to control the battle decreases. If they run into an ambush, he dies anyway with his whole unit. Thus, it is considered preferable to have heads out unless there's a reason (obviously, if arty is falling you button up).
This is true to a certain extent, but with network centric warfare and the C3I equipment installed in commander tanks, the commander needs to be in his turret in order to manage his forces. His job is to manage his forces, not run recon, particularly in Cav units. Unless said commander is commanding the recon unit, of course, in which case it's a totally different ballgame (commander Abrams =/= recon Hummvee). ;P

Having said that... it must be admitted that for the tankers, seeing their commander in his tank barreling across the desert, thundering "FOLLOW ME!" is a most uplifting and morale-boosting scene. It certinly worked for Moshe Dayan and the Israelis.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-04-10 at 02:19.
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Old 2008-04-10, 02:29   Link #1146
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
...so you're saying that in essence Nanoha should have afterburnered her way past the drones, ignoring the fact that if she doesn't provide top cover the drones will cream the helo, recce'd the train, then return to the helo?
No. Here's what should have happened (if Keroko's high speeds are right). She should have:
1) Finished briefing and moved ahead for the recce.
2) As she moves in for the recce or as she's doing the recce, they detect the Type II drones.
3) She breaks off the recce to engage.
4) The Forwards are now forced to go in without recce.
5) Erio runs into Type III.

Quote:
Wasn't it powered down? Besides, wouldn't the energy sigs of the other Type IIs and Is mask the signal? (in like manner to how you can deliberately increase emissions to hid an EMCON'ed ship amongst non-EMCON ships or a sub running silent can hid itself in ambeint noise).
Maybe, but they don't know that. Remember, evaluate by Effort and Process, not Results.

Quote:
This is true to a certain extent, but with network centric warfare and the C3I equipment installed in commander tanks, the commander needs to be in his turret in order to manage his forces.
Technology changes the dialectic, doesn't it. And Nanoverse changes it once again. With those floating screens, you don't have to decide b/w the force-management screen inside your turret and the surroundings, just as the HUD (now HMS too) and HOTAS freed the pilot from much of the need to compromise b/w his radar screen and visuals, so again your head is stuck out to allow you to enjoy the full data flow from direct visualization
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Old 2008-04-10, 03:03   Link #1147
Wild Goose
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That fact that we don't see anyone using their computers in flight would tend to suggest there's a good reason for no MFDs or HUDs in combat.

Or it's TSAB zeitgeist again. :P
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Old 2008-04-10, 04:30   Link #1148
Jimmy C
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Those screens can be used in flight. In ep2's flashback, when Fate was flying out with Ginga during the airport fire, a screen popped up to report that Nanoha had rescued Subaru already.
And, considering how much of their spellcasting is managed by their devices, I don't think you can say they don't use computers in flight.
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Old 2008-04-10, 04:33   Link #1149
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Ahh, help from an unexpected direction
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Old 2008-04-10, 05:10   Link #1150
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Don't get too used to it, lol

Yet another example of TSAB silliness. Then again, all those screens could be distracting....
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Old 2008-04-10, 05:12   Link #1151
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Ahh, help from an unexpected direction
We don't argue against you Ark, we argue against your arguments. If your argument is the right one, then there is no need to argue against you now is there?
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Old 2008-04-10, 05:27   Link #1152
Kha
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Which begs the question: when do they use Voice-Only, and when do they use vidcoms? Or is it preference? Cos in Episode 1 and 3, Nanoha still airborne during the rescue effort used both in-flight, telcomms with Nameless Operator #37 in Episode 1, and vid with Hayate in the later one.
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Old 2008-04-10, 08:13   Link #1153
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
In stadia ranging terms, the usable data range is only from 17255-17271 in this case.
Even though he crossed a conciderable distance the next frame?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
As a front line leader, a junior officer who has not learned to hide the fact he's an officer from distant observation will likely die as his unit is brought into commitment anyway.
Which already makes this a rather moot point, concidering Nanoha and Fate are rather famous.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Of course, commander's reconaissance is not riskless, but a commander risking his butt is better than him making a mistake in judgment and sending his whole unit (which includes Commander) into the maw of the same sniper, no?
Yes, but having your commander whiped before the mission even started isn't exactly ideal either. Especially since recon was already done.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Not generally, but it could be relatively soft as a whole and still break into little pieces. Think of punching a stack of potato chips. Overall, the feeling will be relatively soft, but the individual potato chips should shatter quite nicely
Wrong analogy, punching a bag of chips won't cause the bag to shatter. Try an individual chip, that one does shatter.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I'm smiling. Because you are learning the beauties of stadia ranging
Don't cheer to soon, by the looks of it we're going to but heads at the Zest department again.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
And there's a deep reason as to why it looked good.
But said reason is not the reason why animators do it.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, Sette was definitely lagging.
Yes, and she caught up, concidering both of them fade at the exact same frame. This tells us one of two things: Either Sette is faster then Tre using Ride Impulse, or Tre was not using Ride Impulse yet. Concidering the former is riduculous, the later is far more likely.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
IIRC, they knew they were somewhere inside the train. They don't know their exact locations.
They knew enough to pin a number on them at least.

The scenario with Nanoha went as followed:

- Team dipatches via heli.
- Detailed analysis of the situation is made by Long Arch, they know enough to determine that the target container has not been breached yet.
- Type-2 aerial drones appear, surprising the Long Arch. Nanoha and Fate provide cover for the unprotected heli
- Rein briefs the forwards and anounces she'll join them
- Forwards deploy

So you see, there was no time for a recon, as the group was caught almost by surprise when the drones arived before the briefing had even occured.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Tape.

Now, I wasn't really joking about these two answers as their brevity makes it seem. One possibility is that it was magically bonded to the head so it doesn't fly off as easily. The other possibility is that the barrier automatically wraps around the hat and helps keep it from flying off.
I suggest you go for the former, the later only gives me more ammunition to play with.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
What did you think I was using...
Not a clue, but since our frame calculations were different I was thinking you were using the Yesy subs.

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Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Which begs the question: when do they use Voice-Only, and when do they use vidcoms? Or is it preference? Cos in Episode 1 and 3, Nanoha still airborne during the rescue effort used both in-flight, telcomms with Nameless Operator #37 in Episode 1, and vid with Hayate in the later one.
Preference I'd say.
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Old 2008-04-10, 08:42   Link #1154
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Ah well. Oh by the way, I'd like to point out the vidcam is actually in the screen, no to the side like we are used to. This is why when the characters talk facing the screen, the other side sees it as facing directly at them.

Useless trivia FTW.
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Old 2008-04-10, 10:09   Link #1155
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Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Ah well. Oh by the way, I'd like to point out the vidcam is actually in the screen, no to the side like we are used to. This is why when the characters talk facing the screen, the other side sees it as facing directly at them.

Useless trivia FTW.
Here is a useless trivia question for ya:
If a vidcam is on voice only does it say "VOICE ONLY" on it?

Just some minor things I need to know about the workings of those screens for Arc-en-Ciel (Though how exactly they pop into existence anywhere is beyond me...)
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Old 2008-04-10, 10:18   Link #1156
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Mid Childa is a magic civilization, obviously its magic. :3
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Old 2008-04-10, 10:20   Link #1157
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Mid Childa is a magic civilization, obviously its magic. :3
Well... True But I was also wondering how they exactly work. Like can only mages make them pop up anywhere? Or do they just pop up when like sent or...?

Its something that I need to figure out since I don't know if Varistans could actually access them.
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Old 2008-04-10, 10:25   Link #1158
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concidering non-mages can use them as well, I wouldn't worry about that.
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Old 2008-04-10, 10:26   Link #1159
krisslanza
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concidering non-mages can use them as well, I wouldn't worry about that.
Hmmm ok I guess I'll just treat them as some sort of uhm... On demand screen or... Something I'll figure something out that sounds logical enough...
If I can stop playing MMOs long enough to do any writing...
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Old 2008-04-10, 11:37   Link #1160
Wild Goose
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Meh, just follow the pearls of wisdom that were granted to me by my former-Marine source: "If it works, it works, be happy, and let the armorer worry about the fine details." Course, he was talking about the M16
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One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

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