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Old 2008-04-10, 18:42   Link #1161
Kha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
Here is a useless trivia question for ya:
If a vidcam is on voice only does it say "VOICE ONLY" on it?
Almost. Remember the SEELE High Council?
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Old 2008-04-10, 18:45   Link #1162
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Almost. Remember the SEELE High Council?
All I remember about any Council is "Brains in jars"
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Old 2008-04-10, 19:33   Link #1163
Kha
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Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
All I remember about any Council is "Brains in jars"
When they were first revealed that it in that secret comms to Regius.
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Old 2008-04-10, 20:34   Link #1164
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Even though he crossed a conciderable distance the next frame?
Either they were going for the "star" effect or they weren't. Once the star effect starts:
1) It is no longer possible to stadia-range. If I force range, the stadia ranging will actually report Zest turned back and closed. Unrangable data is useless.
2) We are literally told it is bad data.
3) We are told that at the end of the star, no matter what range Zest was really at they are dropping him from the plot.

Quote:
Which already makes this a rather moot point, concidering Nanoha and Fate are rather famous.
I'm talking real life. In the Nanoverse, things favor using commander reconaissance even more - because commanders are so well protected and in general capable in comparison to their forwards.

Quote:
Yes, but having your commander whiped before the mission even started isn't exactly ideal either. Especially since recon was already done.
There are so many things that can only be gained from actually being at the scene.

Quote:
Wrong analogy, punching a bag of chips won't cause the bag to shatter. Try an individual chip, that one does shatter.
I did not say "bag", did I.

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Don't cheer to soon, by the looks of it we're going to but heads at the Zest department again.
True. However, strategically I'm happy you are learning to stad-range anyway.

Quote:
But said reason is not the reason why animators do it.
It is the underlying reason they do the fade, whether they really realize it or not.

Quote:
Yes, and she caught up, concidering both of them fade at the exact same frame. This tells us one of two things: Either Sette is faster then Tre using Ride Impulse, or Tre was not using Ride Impulse yet. Concidering the former is riduculous, the later is far more likely.
But she already declared the activation, so the latter is not much of a solution. Maybe visibility was just a little worse in Sette's direction.

Quote:
They knew enough to pin a number on them at least.

The scenario with Nanoha went as followed:

- Team dipatches via heli.
- Detailed analysis of the situation is made by Long Arch, they know enough to determine that the target container has not been breached yet.
- Type-2 aerial drones appear, surprising the Long Arch. Nanoha and Fate provide cover for the unprotected heli
- Rein briefs the forwards and anounces she'll join them
- Forwards deploy

So you see, there was no time for a recon, as the group was caught almost by surprise when the drones arived before the briefing had even occured.
Oh, so according to you, Rein did the whole briefing by herself. That means around Item 1, Nanoha should have started flying ahead, to be foiled by Item 3.
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Old 2008-04-11, 01:31   Link #1165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
That's front-line command, but not commander's reconaissance. That will involve a commander (Rein's an aide), and the reconaissance part will mean Rein actually gets there before the main body and take a good look-see of the terrain and so on.


Maybe in the Napoleonic Era...

There is a reason that the doctrines of modern warfare demand that a commander stay a safe area far from the frontlines as possible. With advances in telecommunication, a commander no longer needs to personally ascertain the area for himself to be sure of his intelligence reports - the modern commander relies on printouts, video screens and reports in analyzing the big picture and calling the shots. With the scale of warfare today, it'll be inconvenient and a waste of time if the commander has to see the area for himself before making a decision. Speed is essential in the decisive execution of any command decision, and if a commander is sure that his recon elements are competent, then he has no reason to see the action area with his own eyes, lest he wastes time getting there.

While there's nothing stopping a commander from personally performing recon on the area, it's not only tedious, but also places the commander at greater risk from enemy elements. And I don't need to remind anyone that placing your commander, the greatest asset in a military operation, in harms way is not the best thing to do.
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Old 2008-04-11, 03:04   Link #1166
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A lot of the applicability of the "lead from the front" strategy depends on the scale of the operation. A battalion commander has a completely different set of responsibilities than a platoon leader! The latter is expected to demonstrate personal courage, the former to show caution in risking himself physically.

That translates weirdly to RF6, though, because it's a battalion -and- an outsized squad at the same time. Of course Nanoha and Fate have to lead from the front - not only are they the section leaders, but they personally represent something like half the unit's firepower. They ARE the front, man. (Normal US doctrine on the issue simply can't account for the possibility of the kind of combat beast that a high-rank mage can be. Or if all of RF6 was up to that standard, you could hold the commanders back in a supervisory role and still deploy plenty of beamspam to the target. But having Nanoha command from a console and sending Caro into fire would be just plain stupid...

It's a bit different for Hayate - but most of that is a function of her combat role of heavy support. If she were an attacker type like Nanoha or Fate, it'd be essential that she be right in the thick of things as well.
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Old 2008-04-11, 03:11   Link #1167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Either they were going for the "star" effect or they weren't.
Obviously they were, otherwise you wouldn't see a star, now would you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Once the star effect starts:
1) It is no longer possible to stadia-range. If I force range, the stadia ranging will actually report Zest turned back and closed. Unrangable data is useless.
In other words, stadia won't work on this scene, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
2) We are literally told it is bad data.
3) We are told that at the end of the star, no matter what range Zest was really at they are dropping him from the plot.
What we are told is that Zest disapeared into the distance. Star effect in animation means 'disapeared into the horizon' which means that Zest disapeared into the horizon in 17 frames.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I did not say "bag", did I.
You're right, I misread, you did say stack. And from A's and onwards, Barriers do look like stacked layers...

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
True. However, strategically I'm happy you are learning to stad-range anyway.
I finally have the software to do so, that does help.

However, that does not mean I accept everything must be able to be measured, and that such measurments are definetly accurate. Heck, even you agree that animation cannot always be measured.

Yes, I am still in disagreement over the fighting speed and Nanoha/Vita snipe. Rangewise yes, speedwise no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It is the underlying reason they do the fade, whether they really realize it or not.
Actually, its just a convenience. Fade animation is done because it looks good, realism is just a bonus. They could have done a star animation too, looks just as good but screws over realism.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
But she already declared the activation, so the latter is not much of a solution. Maybe visibility was just a little worse in Sette's direction.
Sette also declared the activation, but she wasn't exactly using her IS either, now was she? More likely the activation was along the lines of 'removing the safety' allowing the IS to be activated at a moments notice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Oh, so according to you, Rein did the whole briefing by herself. That means around Item 1, Nanoha should have started flying ahead, to be foiled by Item 3.
Rein did the briefing because they were surprised by the drones. Whether she had done so had the aerial types not shown up we can only guess.
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Old 2008-04-11, 08:39   Link #1168
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post


Maybe in the Napoleonic Era...

There is a reason that the doctrines of modern warfare demand that a commander stay a safe area far from the frontlines as possible. With advances in telecommunication, a commander no longer needs to personally ascertain the area for himself to be sure of his intelligence reports - the modern commander relies on printouts, video screens and reports in analyzing the big picture and calling the shots. With the scale of warfare today, it'll be inconvenient and a waste of time if the commander has to see the area for himself before making a decision. Speed is essential in the decisive execution of any command decision, and if a commander is sure that his recon elements are competent, then he has no reason to see the action area with his own eyes, lest he wastes time getting there.

While there's nothing stopping a commander from personally performing recon on the area, it's not only tedious, but also places the commander at greater risk from enemy elements. And I don't need to remind anyone that placing your commander, the greatest asset in a military operation, in harms way is not the best thing to do.
I think I'll take actual modern doctrine over you claim it says.

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Originally Posted by FM 3-91 - DIVISION OPERATIONS

ROLE OF THE COMMANDER AND STAFF

The division commander's leadership provides purpose and direction to both soldiers and units. The commander is responsible for everything his unit does or fails to do. He is accountable to senior commanders for accomplishing assigned missions. His leadership is central to the success of the division, and his actions have far-reaching impact.

The division commander motivates his soldiers and staff to accomplish difficult tasks in both war and operations other than war. He inspires and mentors subordinates through his presence and face-to-face communications. He positions himself where he can see the battlefield.

Command Group

The command group consists of the division commander and designated staff members. Normally, this includes a G3 officer, a G2 representative, a fire support element (FSE) representative, and the air liaison officer (ALO). The command group is not a permanent organization. The mission and staff available dictate its makeup. The command group locates well forward where it can see and influence the battle with rapid decisions and orders.

The commander may choose to fight the battle from his command group. If so, he normally positions himself initially with the main effort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truppenfuehrung (Unit Command)

7. An officer is in every sense a leader and a teacher. In addition to his knowledge of men and his sense of justice, he must be distinguished by superior knowledge and experience, by moral excellence, by self-discipline, and by high courage...

12. Leaders must live with their troops and share with them their dangers and deprivations, their joys and sorrows. Only thus can they acquire first-hand knowledge of the combat capabilities and needs of their soldiers.

The Position of the Commander and His Staff

109. The personal influence of a commander on his troops is vitally important. He must position himself close to the combat units...

111. The division commander's place is with his troops.

112. During an advance, the division commander with his immediate staff should position themselves well forward...

113. If contact with the enemy is imminent, the division commander remains with the advance guard of the march column, which based on his estimate will play the key role. It is there that he can most quickly exert his influence. Personal observation is best upon contact with the enemy. The division commander, therefore, must position himself on the battlefield at the decisive point, and as early as possible. His position must be located and reached easily.
There is no real substitute for personal observation. From at least the battalion level and lower, the place of a commander is with their troops. It is by no coincidence that ranks from Major to Colonel are called field ranks.
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Old 2008-04-11, 08:45   Link #1169
krisslanza
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Hang on. Wait. Are you guys applying Earth military laws and doctrine to Midchildains? They're Midchildans. They're ALIENS, they aren't Earthlings. Who is to say they have to function based upon our military codes? They could have different ones.

This is like assuming if aliens visited Earth that their military code and conducts would be identical to ours if they were humanoid looking. Though maybe this falls under the category of "Applying Earth logic" or... Something as usual
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Old 2008-04-11, 09:18   Link #1170
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Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
Hang on. Wait. Are you guys applying Earth military laws and doctrine to Midchildains? They're Midchildans. They're ALIENS, they aren't Earthlings. Who is to say they have to function based upon our military codes? They could have different ones.

This is like assuming if aliens visited Earth that their military code and conducts would be identical to ours if they were humanoid looking. Though maybe this falls under the category of "Applying Earth logic" or... Something as usual
If they are fighting battles, the fundamentals of military art of objective, offensive, mass, economy of force, maneuver, unity of command, surprise, security and simplicity all apply regardless of cultural standards.
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Old 2008-04-11, 09:24   Link #1171
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
If they are fighting battles, the fundamentals of military art of objective, offensive, mass, economy of force, maneuver, unity of command, surprise, security and simplicity all apply regardless of cultural standards.
It still sounds like an assumption really - at least to me. They are aliens, isn't any reason really they would follow our rules. They are a magical society after all. And ok some of those might apply but I doubt some of them also have to apply.
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Old 2008-04-11, 09:33   Link #1172
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It still sounds like an assumption really - at least to me. They are aliens, isn't any reason really they would follow our rules. They are a magical society after all. And ok some of those might apply but I doubt some of them also have to apply.
If you don't believe in gravity, does gravity no longer affect you?
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Old 2008-04-11, 10:05   Link #1173
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
If you don't believe in gravity, does gravity no longer affect you?
Gravity is a bad example. Just because human commanders might need to go survey a site in person doesn't mean another civilization could just say "Hey who needs that?" or they could use something else. Like a drone. Or magic!
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Old 2008-04-11, 10:10   Link #1174
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Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
Gravity is a bad example. Just because human commanders might need to go survey a site in person doesn't mean another civilization could just say "Hey who needs that?" or they could use something else. Like a drone. Or magic!
Gravity is a fundamental force of physics. Objective, offensive, mass, economy of force, maneuver, unity of command, surprise, security are fundamental military principles. They are not rules. They are foundations. They operate whether you are aware of them or not.
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Old 2008-04-11, 10:27   Link #1175
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I note that the excerpts Mirificus quoted refer to field leadership, but do not state explicitly that the commander must personaly conduct recon.

I think we need a couple of definitions here - ark's main thrust is essentiall that a commander must verify recon information personally and must scout out targets himself, essentially doing over the recon platoon/troop's job. Lowe's counter thrust is in essence that that's not the commander's job, the commander's job is command.

Which then brings up the question of whether personal observation of the battle for command & control is what Ark had in mind, but considering how he said that Nanoha should have gone on first and recce'd the train, I think his idea is that the commander must verify the recon intel personally.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Gravity is a fundamental force of physics. Objective, offensive, mass, economy of force, maneuver, unity of command, surprise, security are fundamental military principles. They are not rules. They are foundations. They function whether you are aware of them or not.
True.

...*sighs* This just drives the point home how utterly incompetant the TSAB are from a military standpoint. They're like Starfleet. -_-

BTW, Mirificus, out of curiousity: are you in the Army?
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Old 2008-04-11, 10:36   Link #1176
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It's true that the fundamental principles of conflict are no different, whether you have a rifle or a magical stick.

But how that translates to field operations, now, that's going to vary wildly depending on the circumstances. On a battlefield where the forces are capable of independent teleportation, security, for example, is a whole 'nother beast. To say nothing of saboteurs -coming out of the walls at you-. And you can list surprise as an essential principle, but at the same time, we're talking about a world in which accurate precognition exists - thus, surprise may be impossible under any and all circumstances! (Fortunately, only the good guys have any precog...)

The differential in combat power between the elite mages, the not-really-elite but hard-training forwards, and the plain ol' useless mooks is significant. That throws traditional concepts of mass on their ear.

We've already noted the problems with traditional unity of command principles. These aren't ordinary troopers. These are troopers with the combat power of high-value naval units, of their own persons (and if they retire, transfer, or desert, that power goes with them). There's a bit of fighter jock mentality, and it's earned. Also crucially, Hayate and Fate are both alive to see Strikers because Nanoha (and Yuuno, and then Nanoha and Fate) specifically disobeyed orders. It's like, yes, military virtue is good, but Fate not dying is -also- good. ;p

Finally, one reason we don't harp too much on the traditional principles of combat is that it's bloody obvious the writers are totally unfamiliar with them. There's lots of places where Hayate, Nanoha, Fate, the upper brass, even Chrono do things which make no sense from the perspective of managing and fighting in a military system. And, of course, all this is taking place in the context of a magical girl show where the big attraction is fights; while the principles of maneuver and mass suggest that it would make sense for Nanoha and Fate to cruise around the battlefield and swat every threat in tandem, that's not as good from a narrative standpoint.

(And, to put it bluntly, they already have to reach to challenge either of those two individually - a big part of the problem with the series is that they have to contrive pretty hard to keep Nanoha or Fate from instapwning the enemy on contact.)
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Old 2008-04-11, 21:00   Link #1177
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
In other words, stadia won't work on this scene, right?
No, you do the best with it. You have ~17 good frames. Which is actually more than enough to get very good averages.

Quote:
What we are told is that Zest disapeared into the distance. Star effect in animation means 'disapeared into the horizon' which means that Zest disapeared into the horizon in 17 frames.
Yes, but we don't know exactly when is that. According to you, they start playing these effect when the target is at least 2px wide. The difference b/w 2px and "subpixel" is over half a kilometer.

Quote:
Rein did the briefing because they were surprised by the drones. Whether she had done so had the aerial types not shown up we can only guess.
So she's capable of doing it. Easy tasks to deputy, hard tasks to yourself

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
I note that the excerpts Mirificus quoted refer to field leadership, but do not state explicitly that the commander must personaly conduct recon.

I think we need a couple of definitions here - ark's main thrust is essentiall that a commander must verify recon information personally and must scout out targets himself, essentially doing over the recon platoon/troop's job. Lowe's counter thrust is in essence that that's not the commander's job, the commander's job is command.

Which then brings up the question of whether personal observation of the battle for command & control is what Ark had in mind, but considering how he said that Nanoha should have gone on first and recce'd the train, I think his idea is that the commander must verify the recon intel personally.
Whenever possible. As you'll have noticed, I did say that if Nanoha has to fight drones, than Nanoha fights drones.

A Commander's job is indeed command, but part of effective command is to make sure he has a good grasp of the elements of the situation. Thus the Commander's reconnaissance (as time permits).

It is often forgotten what a close run thing Ep5 really was. Because of inadequate reconaissance, the location of a major enemy unit (Type III) was not identified, nor did they have an idea of its strength. This placed Erio in a very dangerous predicament. Then, a lack of discipline (a neverending problem for RF6) caused Caro to jump after him. Only the fact that 7Arcs apparently believes that the time to master a new skill is in Danger saved them. It is clear the Command did not have a very good grasp of the essential elements of the situation.
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Old 2008-04-12, 12:11   Link #1178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
BTW, Mirificus, out of curiousity: are you in the Army?
No, I'm Canadian actually

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
It's true that the fundamental principles of conflict are no different, whether you have a rifle or a magical stick.

But how that translates to field operations, now, that's going to vary wildly depending on the circumstances. On a battlefield where the forces are capable of independent teleportation, security, for example, is a whole 'nother beast. To say nothing of saboteurs -coming out of the walls at you-. And you can list surprise as an essential principle, but at the same time, we're talking about a world in which accurate precognition exists - thus, surprise may be impossible under any and all circumstances! (Fortunately, only the good guys have any precog...)
Surprise is to strike the enemy at a time or place or in a manner for which they are unprepared. As I've noted before, an enemy need not be taken completely by surprise but only become aware too late to react effectively.

Note how Scagletti's forces were able to achieve operational and tactical surprise in the headquarters battle despite the use of precognition by RF6.
Quote:
The differential in combat power between the elite mages, the not-really-elite but hard-training forwards, and the plain ol' useless mooks is significant. That throws traditional concepts of mass on their ear.
The essence of mass is the concentration of the effects of overwhelming combat power at the decisive place and time. Concentration is the ability to mass effects without massing large formations.

Rather than being thrown on its ear, it explains a lot like why TSAB line mages are such liabilities in conventional combat. Their lack of firepower, range and mobility necessitate that they physically need to be massed together to achieve a concentration of combat power but any such formation is terribly vulnerable to area weapons.

Quote:
We've already noted the problems with traditional unity of command principles. These aren't ordinary troopers. These are troopers with the combat power of high-value naval units, of their own persons (and if they retire, transfer, or desert, that power goes with them). There's a bit of fighter jock mentality, and it's earned. Also crucially, Hayate and Fate are both alive to see Strikers because Nanoha (and Yuuno, and then Nanoha and Fate) specifically disobeyed orders. It's like, yes, military virtue is good, but Fate not dying is -also- good. ;p
I haven't contested the results from the last two seasons. If they can get away with less discipline and still achieve positive outcomes, so be it. Strikers , however, is lacking in both process and results.

Quote:
Finally, one reason we don't harp too much on the traditional principles of combat is that it's bloody obvious the writers are totally unfamiliar with them. There's lots of places where Hayate, Nanoha, Fate, the upper brass, even Chrono do things which make no sense from the perspective of managing and fighting in a military system. And, of course, all this is taking place in the context of a magical girl show where the big attraction is fights; while the principles of maneuver and mass suggest that it would make sense for Nanoha and Fate to cruise around the battlefield and swat every threat in tandem, that's not as good from a narrative standpoint.
I was pointing out how when it comes to winning battles, cultural relativism, alien or not, does not invalidate those principles.

Quote:
(And, to put it bluntly, they already have to reach to challenge either of those two individually - a big part of the problem with the series is that they have to contrive pretty hard to keep Nanoha or Fate from instapwning the enemy on contact.)
That reminds me of how poorly limiters were handled.
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Old 2008-04-12, 15:38   Link #1179
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Equating mages to combat vehicles... this is what I see...

Nanoha: F-18E Super Hornet (Good air superiority and mix of firepower)
Fate: F-22 Raptor (Speed and power.)
Hayate: AC-130 Spooky OR B-52H Stratofortress (Heavy Firepower)

Signum: A-10 Thunderbolt II (Heavy CAS)
Vita: AH64 D Apache Longbow (Medium CAS, tank busting)


Shamal: E3-Sentry (Search Role) - UH-60 Blackhawk (Medical Role)
Saphira: F-16 (Escort)

R. Zwei: E2-C Hawkeye (Most time spent as supporting or Command & Control Element, but very vulnerable.)

Tiana: HMMVEE (Versatile weapons layouts, but gets chewed up if taken directly.)
Subaru: M2 Bradley Fighting Vehicle (Tow Missiles when she needs them. Doesn't ACTUALLY fly.)

Erio: Harrier (Doesn't fly the best, but has decent firepower.)

Caro (Riding Friedric): A-6 Intruder. (Generally useless alone, but capable of some surprises still, as well as calling in greater firepower.)

Chrono: F-15 Eagle (Tried and true, kicks so much ass.)
Lindy: B-2 Spirit (SURPRISE! Bet you didn't see HER coming.)
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Old 2008-04-14, 08:18   Link #1180
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Hi, Keroko, my computer and I greet you.
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