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Old 2008-05-06, 08:05   Link #1221
Comartemis
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You guys are taking this way too seriously. Can't we just say "They're faster than normal humans" and leave the details to personal interpretation?

I'm all for the idea that the Aces fly at about fighter jet speeds as a general baseline figure, with modifications for things like Sonic Form and Flash Move. TK will probably say they're closer to helicopter speeds and ark will probably say something even slower than that based on "stadia ranging" and all this "judging by the animation techniques" bullshit--which I do my level best to ignore--but all the same, they're really fast by human standards no matter how you look at it. Can't we just agree to disagree and make our own judgments based on personal interpretation?
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Old 2008-05-06, 10:36   Link #1222
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
You know, the most biggest difference between your logic and mine is that I don't discard scenes. I explain them. You, however, just blatantly said 'this scene is useless, it never happened'
You put this on the bottom, but this is so important that it just has to be on the top.

First, the difference b/w your logic and mine is that mine is an Analytic Logic that produces results. Yours is not. Your Laws of Anime do not "explain" scenes - they are just an assortment of excuses to discard scenes (or parts of scenes) you don't like. Anyway, I find it of utter sophistry that after you brightly admit that getting your desired version involves shafting the majority of the combat evidence (and that we should do it anyway), you turn around and complain that I'm a discarder.

And Wild Goose calls me unconstructive...

Quote:
And the part of it not being a representation of reallity is cute. Especially since I've been saying that all along. This is anime, animation, something created to entertain, to look cool, to look cute. It is not created with 'reallity' foremost in mind, ergo, comparing it with reallity is inherently flawed.
Here, unfortunately, is your dilemma. Sure, if you only want to watch it as entertainment, such a "brains-off" attitude is fine. That's actually how I tried to watch Nanoha and succeeded for Nanoha, A's and up to Ch17 of StrikerS.

However, we want to do more. We want to write FanFic using those characters (in combat at that). We want to analyze. We want to know how fast Nanoverse rounds are. How high they can fly and what they can defend against. And that's when we, for objectiveness, decide to evaluate it as it was real.

For example, you can say that you cannot determine the speed of Nanoverse combat. But you don't want that. So...

Now let's look at your pile of VTL breaking evidence
Spoiler for Bullet Time Scene Collection:
Quote:
Whew, well that's all I could pick out when speed-watching S1. Haven't started A's yet, much less StrikerS, but with so many examples lining up in the first season alone, I'd say its safe to say Voice-Lock is busted.
It is obvious that you allowed your discomforts and eagerness to destroy evidence rule your judgment. If you spend half the effort in trying to make everything fit as you do trying to destroy everything, we might make progress yet.

Further, your strategy for "breaking" VL tells me that you don't understand the nature of VL as derived from SoD's principles. To put it in perspective you might understand, it is roughly equivalent to me busting Laws of Animation (Time Accel and Decel) by citing the many, many minutes of Nanoha (supplemented by other anime) in which there's no reason to believe any time accel or decel happened. I'll undoubtedly be able to cite many more examples (I can pick one for almost every minute of Nanoha), but that's of no import. Same here.

Now for the rest of your post...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Never Lose
Granted, never lose was symbolic, but that does not change 'best choice'
Why? The statement's literal truthfulness is already broken.

Quote:
Movement is even pressure now?
Relative to a vortex.

Quote:
All right, so I grant you that scene. Where does that bring us? At a controdictionairy point. Barrier Jackets are worn for defence, but apparently they are useless defending against puffs of wind from flying bugs. Whgich brings us where?
They are pretty good against fire (Ep 9 A's), and I have not yet had cause to laugh at their BC abilities.

Quote:
.... blank line.
I thought you are good at math.

Quote:
Following your logic, the fast movement scenes are locked by sound though. Heck, the scene in 16:51 even has nice sparkling sounds that don't change as soon as Nanoha starts talking.
Should have included this one into your list up there. It is not VTL, but the principle and strictness is similar.

Solution candidates that don't require any time manipulation.
1) It was indeed 1x time there, and they were using Flash Move equivs. Possible because the times of the lines glowing are very small. Flash Move was being used in a start / stop fashion. But since you didn't bite this theory:

Solution candidates involving time manipulation
2) The nice sparkling sound is related to the healing field, which is somehow linked to Nanoha (for all we know, Nanoha was powering it - which does explain why the field just disappears instead of breaking as Nanoha preps for SB+). As Nanoha made the decision to save her buddies, her Linker Core unconsciously changed its power setting (use the screencut for transition) and the acoustics of the field changed. After all, the sounds of magical fields is a very unknown science, unlike voices. Here's a boost for what it is worth: If you look closely at the sparkles, there were clearly more of them (per unit area) after the scene cut! This suggests a change in the field conditions, which may explain the change in the realtime acoustics.

Quote:
And the rest of the sounds don't matter anymore?
For the Accel/Decel ranges required in Nanoverse, probably not.

You are correct that VTL in fact affects all Sound as well. The difference is that most sounds can take a higher manipulation without sounding implausible. Voice can take almost no manipulation at all (say 10-20% pushing it, which does not help anything).

Take your typical slowdown. In the slowed (say 1/3rd speed) phase, we hear a 20Hz explosion. That means the real explosion is 60Hz. Can we confidently say it can't be a 60Hz explosion? Probably not, especially if we hadn't heard the explosion at its original speed. (Of course, explosions aren't one freq, but you get the point.) But a normal voice changing to 3 times its frequency? Well... it won't survive a change of 20%!

Speech adds even more difficulties, because it takes time to pronounce phonemes.

Thus, as a generalized rule, the strictness of the T-Lock is Speech > Voice (wordless shouts) > Sounds > Silence. Of course, if the sounds are Alternate Timing Signals (such as the good old Heartbeat or Tick Tock), then you follow their timing.

By the way, if you complain about the Sound Lock, you basically can't use any time manipulation (except for Double / Triple Takes) at all. So that kills you as well - and no, the "Laws of Animation" is not an explanation.

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Admitted imperfect nature? Since when?
Since when it admits it doesn't know some things and since when it admits that "it is thought". The magical dictionary is clearly written from the point of view of a magical expert (probably Midchildran). Which makes him an authority, but not theoretically infallible like the author would be.

Quote:
That aside, during the novel debate you were so insistent that he most recent source of canon is the one we should believe. With the booklets being the most recent source of canon, and the scenes explainable instead of outright changing, doesn't that sort of counter your earlier statements?
All else being even, the recent source has priority. Recentness, however, is not the only factor in life, such as now.

Note also that you (and others) can try to hang me on my own petards. The fact that you can even try to do this is due to a recognition that the scientific gameboard has fair rules that apply to all, always. Your gameboard, on the other hand, is a mishmash of things that are misnamed Laws.

You see, a Law is something that holds true all of the time, or at least almost all. An example of a real "Law of Anime" is that humans are not drawn realistically. However, your laws are really Exceptions, so they basically apply only when you want them to.

Further, as I said, there is a nice ending to this story, and you aren't taking it.

Quote:
<--- fails to see why long barrels should matter when the shots are formed outside the barrels.
Yet the only change is the barrel - thus, obviously the barrel has something to do with it, like helping in cohesion or some such.

Quote:
... You know, with all that I don't see why you're disagreeing with me? This shows exactly my point. There is no point in constantly showing the high-speed battles since it would take away all the character and storyline development, hence they slow down the action on-screen, but leave the far-off shots to prove that it is actually supposed to go a lot faster.
Yet, they place too many constraints on themselves for this to be feasible. Just imagine the Ep5 Fate v Signum (right after the "fast" part). Just think whether the devices will have time to say things like Blitz Rush if they are moving at the speeds you want them to.

By the way, there is a solution to both allow uber high speed fights with huge time decelerations and nice chats. They can just do all their conversations over the common telepathic net. They are not doing this. The conclusion is clear.

Quote:
Although true (I can hardly deny this), I can see a high level of self-contradiction in this. After all, you use one scene of weakness in the Barrier Jackets to justify the 'Barrier Jackets are weak' argument yourself.
What happened to them consistently not holding up well against Whips and Blades (thanks to your assistance, we now confirm they aren't even much good against shock)? What happened to this being consistent with scientific prediction when considering their construction. It is just that Rein takes the cake of a trend so well she gets mentioned a lot, and she closes the last door on anti-Occam Razor claims of the blows not counting because they are magical.

Of course, even one case is better than nothing and may be satisfactory, as long as the opposition has no counterevidence.

Finally, even if I did do what you said, it does not free yourself from my objection, so perhaps you should deal with the essence of the problem.

Quote:
So as long as Voice-Lock does not apply, the scene is discardable? Nice way to rule out my claims of Voice-Lock not applying, but I'm not buying it. That's the pot calling the kettle black there.
Actually, you buy it as the realistic solution. You just don't want to buy it as The Solution, thus you appeal to your self-admittedly unrealistc solution.

If you really need help in understanding the theoretical basis of my assertion, please tell me.

By the way, I've previously stated the importance of VTL, so that's hardly a new principle for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
You guys are taking this way too seriously. Can't we just say "They're faster than normal humans" and leave the details to personal interpretation?

I'm all for the idea that the Aces fly at about fighter jet speeds as a general baseline figure, with modifications for things like Sonic Form and Flash Move. TK will probably say they're closer to helicopter speeds and ark will probably say something even slower than that based on "stadia ranging" and all this "judging by the animation techniques" bullshit--which I do my level best to ignore--but all the same, they're really fast by human standards no matter how you look at it. Can't we just agree to disagree and make our own judgments based on personal interpretation?
Not when you are in the place where you agree to resolve the disagreements instead of just burying them.

Also, this attitude only lasts you until you get into the OC thread.

If the Aces fly at about fighter jet speeds, than a mage rank of AAA-S to you corresponds to that speed range. Let's just go with that:

Scenario 1: You create a squadron. To ensure its easy admission, you make sure it only has one AAA. It looks good and it was almost approved. Except you let slip that the AAA has jet fighter speeds. A h3xxbuster homes in and tells you Jet Fighter = SS+ = No Go.

Scenario 2: Someone borrows your character and you agree. He looks at the technotactical data stating your character is a AAA flying mage and plans his battle with your character accordingly. Your chara gets brought down by a propeller fighter. According to you, your character should just outrun the propfighter.

These are crude examples, but when you remember you probably differ from Tk on matters like weapons ranges, survivability, etc, the net result is that what you thought is AAA is completely different from his, and this will cause problems. Now, how would both sides justify themselves to each other. An unhappy compromise? Tyranny of the Majority? Or a reasoned analysis of what canon really says about the issue?

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-05-06 at 11:13. Reason: OK, so it wasn't always...
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Old 2008-05-06, 11:32   Link #1223
Tormenk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
We want to write FanFic using those characters (in combat at that). We want to analyze. We want to know how fast Nanoverse rounds are. How high they can fly and what they can defend against. And that's when we, for objectiveness, decide to evaluate it as it was real.
Given the conditions that the writers here place themselves in, I do see the point in finding out about the details of certain matters or mechanics to give an accurate presentation and avoid mistakes as best as possible.

However I'm not sure why the knowledge of how things like how fast a round in Nanoha can travel will aid in writing good fanfiction or affect the reader's experience of it.
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Old 2008-05-06, 20:05   Link #1224
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This is part of the reason when I write mage battles they tend to be melee and up close, because then I don't have to worry about round velocities or details like that.

And I tend to focus more on charecter interactions and wordplay.

@ark: In this case, from both your points of view, both you and Keroko are equally unconstructive to each other. Think about that a bit, Math Professor.
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Old 2008-05-11, 10:26   Link #1225
Wild Goose
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I'm probably going to regret this in the morning. However I am tired, very tired. Work as a Customer Service Rep for Domino's is draining, especially on weekends - and tonight we got hit with so many orders almost all our stores got backlogged. And you can't exactly backlog breaker pizzas.

Shift started at 4 pm, ended at 10 pm officially, hung back till 10.30 to take care of some overtime shit and annoyed and grumbling customers, and bitchy customer bitches. All while showing great enthusiasm and shit which will hopefully help me get an in for the shift leader slot when a new slot opens in about 3 months time. Was on the phone from 5.20 until 10.15 nonstop.

Anyways, question as follows:

Episode 5, StrikerS (or whatever episode it was where the Forwards first deployed onto that train - do any of you really think that at this moment in time I'm going to give a fuck and wiki it), the Forwards and Nanoha do an air drop from the helo. Now, consider.

The helo has to be very high up. Ark can probably whip out his holy stadias and calculate the distance for us. Now here's a question: None of the Forwards can fly. Yet when they land on the train, they do so nonchalontly, like it was no big deal.

So, since this is apparently Physics Girl Nanoha, how the hell did they avoid that given that such a landing should have ended up in them going splat?

Also, any offence anybody wants to take in this post, that's your own problem. Much of my patience and tact has been rubbed away in the last few weeks and I'm rather annoyed, and am right now going Fuck This and just dropping this question into magitech to necro it and give ark and kero something else to argue about.
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Old 2008-05-11, 10:32   Link #1226
Comartemis
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When in doubt, blame the barrier jacket. I'm no physics major, but a drop from several stories doesn't seem like it would have as much kinetic energy as, say, getting smashed through several floors of a building, so the jacket would probably take the brunt of the impact.
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Old 2008-05-11, 10:36   Link #1227
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Agreed on the 'blame the Barrier Jacket' part, but then, that's where the majority of our debates have been about anyway.

Another interesting thing to note is that to be punched trough several walls, one has to punch you, which means that Signum hit Fate with enough power to knock her through five layers of reinforced concrete, which is pretty physics defying on its own.

But then, I am on the 'physics don't matter' camp, so I just say 'Physical Enhancement Magic' and be done with it.
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Old 2008-05-11, 10:40   Link #1228
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They didn't just fall on the train. They soft-landed on it. Drop protection isn't an excuse for that scene. They had something like the magical equivalent of the parachute.
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Old 2008-05-11, 10:46   Link #1229
Keroko
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I remember a scene from the Final Fantasy movie where the comandos shot a green blob towards the ground which gave them a soft landing, perhaps a magic equivelant of that? An invisible 'field' which gives them a soft landing?
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Old 2008-05-11, 10:50   Link #1230
Comartemis
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I remember Yuuno cushioning Nanoha's landing after she got pwned by Fate early in season 1. Something similar but without the obvious runework, maybe?
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Old 2008-05-11, 10:57   Link #1231
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Intelligent Devices has been known to auto-process certain spells and magical functions. The Forwards were shown to have some form of softening effect as they landed on the train, so most likely they were slowed down via a parachuting effect during the transformation, and then have their landing softened once the dropping speed was reasonable. That wasn't really strange.

If anything, the HAMO Jump build-up could've been better, but between wasting time looking more militaristic and transformation scenes, we know what gets priority in Magical Girl shows.
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Old 2008-05-11, 13:19   Link #1232
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Since Erio was supposed to be in danger when he fell off the train proper I have to go with 'cushioning' rather than 'parachute.' Plus it fits with the visual evidence of Yuuno's S1 Ep 4 cushioning barriers and Chrono's sudden recovery at the end of his fall after Masked Guy kicked him in A's.
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Old 2008-05-11, 15:55   Link #1233
Comartemis
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Quote:
Since Erio was supposed to be in danger when he fell off the train proper I have to go with 'cushioning' rather than 'parachute.'
I wouldn't necessarily count that as evidence. The only one who freaked out when Erio went airborne was Caro, who might not have been thinking rationally due to her relative inexperience.
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Old 2008-05-11, 16:28   Link #1234
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It would explain why everyone was so amazingly calm and did nothing, something which I might add was often complained about. If both Erio and Caro were safe because of whatever it was that had softened their landing, then that would explain their ease.
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Old 2008-05-11, 19:23   Link #1235
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Makes sense in an asian way of thinking. If his flight is busted thanks to the AMF but he'll be alright and have that cushioning once he falls out of AMF range, tthere's nothing to worry about.

This might be an explanation for Chrono coming to a stop after being dropkicked in Ep 4 of A's, though since he could fly, the way the scene was setup seemed to be that he manually stopped himself with judicious application of magical thrust.
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Old 2008-05-12, 06:05   Link #1236
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An excuse to expand my webpage again

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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
They didn't just fall on the train. They soft-landed on it. Drop protection isn't an excuse for that scene. They had something like the magical equivalent of the parachute.
And Jimmy takes the cake for this one. Here is another overly literal and stilted translation from me. I think Selkirk made one for this actually, but I can't find it, certainly not in less time than it'll take me to just scribble something.

Link.

At this rate, I'll actually translate all the terms in 3 years or so...

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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
When in doubt, blame the barrier jacket. I'm no physics major, but a drop from several stories doesn't seem like it would have as much kinetic energy as, say, getting smashed through several floors of a building, so the jacket would probably take the brunt of the impact.
I must say I don't understand this phenomena of crediting the thing physically least likely to save them... do you and Keroko just hate science that much?

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Agreed on the 'blame the Barrier Jacket' part, but then, that's where the majority of our debates have been about anyway.

Another interesting thing to note is that to be punched trough several walls, one has to punch you, which means that Signum hit Fate with enough power to knock her through five layers of reinforced concrete, which is pretty physics defying on its own.

But then, I am on the 'physics don't matter' camp, so I just say 'Physical Enhancement Magic' and be done with it.
It'll just mean she used magic to boost her physical strength to that point. For that particular shot, Signum also could take advantage of the shockwave (see the whitish thing that expands). If we accept that they can generate blasts, then we can accept this possibility.

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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
I wouldn't necessarily count that as evidence. The only one who freaked out when Erio went airborne was Caro, who might not have been thinking rationally due to her relative inexperience.
Well, you've got a point there, though it was still actually fairly irresponsible. You might remember that Q-ice comic where a very likely alternate future was shown

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-05-12 at 06:20. Reason: Added Q-ice link
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Old 2008-05-12, 09:41   Link #1237
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do you and Keroko just hate science that much?
I'm not sure if they hate science in general. Maybe just applying science to a fictional universe.
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Old 2008-05-12, 09:48   Link #1238
Keroko
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
And Jimmy takes the cake for this one. Here is another overly literal and stilted translation from me. I think Selkirk made one for this actually, but I can't find it, certainly not in less time than it'll take me to just scribble something.

Link.
Huh, that's the one from DVD 1 isn't it? Thanks for the tranlsation, much usefull information there. Though it does make me wonder what the one from the second booklet is saying:



It probably doesn't have anything to do with it, but I'm curious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
At this rate, I'll actually translate all the terms in 3 years or so...
I don't mind, they're a treasury of background information. Thanks a lot.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I must say I don't understand this phenomena of crediting the thing physically least likely to save them... do you and Keroko just hate science that much?
Well, it was one of my most hated courses in class, all the calculations drove me mad. I did average though.

*cough* anyway, off-topic rambling aside, you have to remember that Cort and I are in the camp that say that the Barrier Jackets protect against high-impacts, which is pretty physics defying. We just don't see the point in following every bit of the Laws of Physics (most of which we don't even know about, much less how they work) in a show that blatantly breaks them on a regular basis. The explanations don't have to be scientifically correct. If the explanation is cool, it'll do for us.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It'll just mean she used magic to boost her physical strength to that point. For that particular shot, Signum also could take advantage of the shockwave (see the whitish thing that expands). If we accept that they can generate blasts, then we can accept this possibility.
Which still far surpasses the limits of what a human being is scientifically capable of doing.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Well, you've got a point there, though it was still actually fairly irresponsible. You might remember that Q-ice comic where a very likely alternate future was shown
Well, yes, but then why let them jump on a train filled with the buggers in the first place? Besides, there weren't any gadgets following them, now where there? If there were, how can you say they would have reacted the same way?
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Old 2008-05-12, 10:08   Link #1239
Comartemis
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Quote:
I must say I don't understand this phenomena of crediting the thing physically least likely to save them... do you and Keroko just hate science that much?
No, I just don't particularly care about what science has to say on the subject, particularly since this is a magical girl series. I have only so much tolerance for the insertion of science into my thought processes on such a series, and once I reach that point, I go “screw it” and handwave it: “It’s magic, it doesn’t have to make scientific sense.”

See also: Rule of Cool.

The way I see it, the protection afforded by a barrier jacket varies depending on what the wearer wants out of his armor. Some guys prefer protection against mass-based weaponry, and modify their protective fields to be able to shrug off high-impact kinetic shocks, stop bullets, and essentially turn their wearers into walking tanks, but at the expense of zero protection against magic damage. With guns being virtually extinct and beamspam and ranged magic techniques being the order of the day in the TSAB, these have fallen out of use in favor of much more balanced protection, which is what most of the CCs use.

This, essentially, is the difference between barrier jackets and knight armor; knight armor is almost universally designed to withstand physical attacks more than barrier jackets are, while barrier jackets are tuned to provide protection against magical energy. Then there's the knight's garb which the Wolkenritter wear, giving them what is probably a balanced mixture of physical and magical defense as well as allowing them to move faster than their armor-plated cousins.
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Old 2008-05-12, 12:28   Link #1240
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Huh, that's the one from DVD 1 isn't it? Thanks for the tranlsation, much usefull information there. Though it does make me wonder what the one from the second booklet is saying:



It probably doesn't have anything to do with it, but I'm curious.
It indeed has nothing to do with it, but for what its worth, it is here.

At the rate I'm translating, you'll learn Japanese and challenge my translations by the time I'm done

Quote:
Well, it was one of my most hated courses in class, all the calculations drove me mad. I did average though.
I swear there was this post where you said you were good at math.

Quote:
Which still far surpasses the limits of what a human being is scientifically capable of doing.
True, but then, that part of the plan went out the window when they started using magic. Which is why I'm actually not as tight on bodily limits as say Tk3997.

Quote:
Well, yes, but then why let them jump on a train filled with the buggers in the first place? Besides, there weren't any gadgets following them, now where there? If there were, how can you say they would have reacted the same way?
Well, maybe, but they don't know before the operation that should this rather predictable contingency happen (if they simply thought there was no chance one of the Forwards will be thrown off the train, that's a horrendous lack of contingency planning - not that this is unusual to us anymore), no Gadgets will be around to come close to them.

I'm sure lots of us will have cheered had Erio fallen to his death anyway (not me, but I know there are some people who think the Lightning team are better off not existing.
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