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Old 2008-06-04, 05:39   Link #1261
PhoenixG
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I think more accurate translation would be "a few hunderd KM". But the "few" is really a subjective word. It be a few more, or really dozen/ hunderds more....

Speaking out of experience.

Being a Cantonese, most at the time I will ask "how few is few?"
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Old 2008-06-04, 05:51   Link #1262
arkhangelsk
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Considering the word order, I wonder how you came up with a few hundred km. Even in Chinese for that you'll have placed the "few" (even more literally "a number (of)") in front of the "hundred", not after.

*Yes, the Japanese sometimes like to flip around Chinese kanji, such as 平和 for 和平 (peace), but numbers is one of the areas where they do it the same way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Well, my main point is that suujuu is not a number, it is a word. If it was a number, I wouldn't argue, but like I said, concidering it isn't a number, doesn't that change things? The meaning of suujuu varies along the lines of 'dozens' or 'scores of' (decades too, but I think its safe to say that doesn't apply here) not just tens. Is it not posible to read it as, say, 'scores of hundreds?'
Actually, they meant "decades", but in the more arcane "sets / groups of ten" meaning. That actually makes it the most literally accurate translation of the three options, though the least personable to the commoners, who tend to relate "decade" to "ten years". I'll be honest and say I had to check the dictionary for the above as well, so that makes me a commoner too.

Anyway, the short answer to your question is no. Besides, "scores of hundreds" (20*100=2000) would be thousands. Now, don't you think they'd just have gone with "thousands" instead of fooling with "scores of hundreds" BS?

The longer answer is that when "hundred" is used w/o a prefix digit, the "one" in front is implied. So that locks the hundred part as "one hundred". The same thing goes with thousands. For ten thousand, common usage will make the one explicit (ichi man); same with one oku (10^8 = one hundred million).

As for suujuu, it is a phrase composed of two discrete word components. Together, they literally mean "multiple decades" or "multiple tens" with the juu being the 'decade' and the suu being the 'multiple'. Words like "scores" or "dozens" are more familiar analogies to show the approximate scales being discussed, but are not really synonymous, especially dozens.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-06-04 at 11:29.
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Old 2008-06-04, 19:58   Link #1263
Nagumo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Considering the word order, I wonder how you came up with a few hundred km. Even in Chinese for that you'll have placed the "few" (even more literally "a number (of)") in front of the "hundred", not after.

*Yes, the Japanese sometimes like to flip around Chinese kanji, such as 平和 for 和平 (peace), but numbers is one of the areas where they do it the same way.



Actually, they meant "decades", but in the more arcane "sets / groups of ten" meaning. That actually makes it the most literally accurate translation of the three options, though the least personable to the commoners, who tend to relate "decade" to "ten years". I'll be honest and say I had to check the dictionary for the above as well, so that makes me a commoner too.

Anyway, the short answer to your question is no. Besides, "scores of hundreds" (20*100=2000) would be thousands. Now, don't you think they'd just have gone with "thousands" instead of fooling with "scores of hundreds" BS?

The longer answer is that when "hundred" is used w/o a prefix digit, the "one" in front is implied. So that locks the hundred part as "one hundred". The same thing goes with thousands. For ten thousand, common usage will make the one explicit (ichi man); same with one oku (10^8 = one hundred million).

As for suujuu, it is a phrase composed of two discrete word components. Together, they literally mean "multiple decades" or "multiple tens" with the juu being the 'decade' and the suu being the 'multiple'. Words like "scores" or "dozens" are more familiar analogies to show the approximate scales being discussed, but are not really synonymous, especially dozens.
Um.... well that's a new way of looking at 'suujuu'. Never thought of it or seen it that way. The way I've been told about 'suujuu' used in conversation implied that it's several or a few. The number ten is very special and used often in this form to denote multiples because there's no unique word like 'dozen' as it is in the West.

The fact that's it's 'tens' in character is somewhat misleading. It's an approximation of the number of another word like hundreds or thousands.

So either it's "several hundred kilometers", "a few hundred kilometers", or something similiar. It's very vague but we can assume that it's between 100 and 1000 kilometers.
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Old 2008-06-04, 21:09   Link #1264
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagumo View Post
Um.... well that's a new way of looking at 'suujuu'. Never thought of it or seen it that way. The way I've been told about 'suujuu' used in conversation implied that it's several or a few. The number ten is very special and used often in this form to denote multiples because there's no unique word like 'dozen' as it is in the West.
I don't know what kind of conversations you've been reading or hearing.

The origin of the term is defined by its component words. I'll agree that in actual usage, it may be valid to use it to cover for say, 35, but then, this is logical since if you had not fixed the tens place exactly you won't be fixing the unitary place either.

In my experience, if they are going for "a few" (as in, less than ten), they would just have gone with the suu, such as 数ヵ所. This is also, of course, logical when you look at the word.

When they say a few tens of thousands, they would say 数万. For hundreds of thousands (literally: tens of ten thousands), they would say 数十万. Or how about 数百万。I would find it suprising if you had not seen these. Note how there is a difference in the quantity, and also that a smaller digit is placed in front of a larger place to signify multiplication. When large is placed in front of small, it means addition.

But that's really just beans compared to why you think that when suujuu (whatever is value) goes after hyaku, it is justified to multiply them, in defiance of the normal order of writing numbers, common to Japanese, Chinese (and English for the matter).

Quote:
The fact that's it's 'tens' in character is somewhat misleading. It's an approximation of the number of another word like hundreds or thousands.

So either it's "several hundred kilometers", "a few hundred kilometers", or something similiar. It's very vague but we can assume that it's between 100 and 1000 kilometers.
Your interpretation, in addition with every other problem listed above, makes the term equivalent to suuhyaku, which makes one wonder why they didn't just use this simpler, shorter and more grammatically logical term that follows the usual conventions of writing numbers in Japanese.
----------------------------
Theory aside, here's a practical example of suujuu, hyakusuujuu and suuhyaku in operation (link).

Or another, even better one here: link about tube amps. Look at the tables. Observe how when he wants to say "a few" kΩ, he doesn't fool around with 数十. He just says 数. Note also 数kΩ~数十kΩ. Why make the differentiation if 数十 = few and 数 = few? Note also that the man uses 百数十倍 and 数百倍 as separate terms that are not equivalent, and it is pretty obvious that the latter is bigger.

Which is consistent with my experiences, the logical structure of the component words and Japanese numbers usage.
---------------------------
Finally, while I don't mind discussion or even debate of my translations, why do you guys get to vaguely say "experience" or "been told" or "implied" or even challenge me with almost no knowledge of the language (Keroko), and I have to give grammar lessons that would likely have given a professional Japanese teacher pause, if not fits?
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Old 2008-06-05, 02:03   Link #1265
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Finally, while I don't mind discussion or even debate of my translations, why do you guys get to vaguely say "experience" or "been told" or "implied" or even challenge me with almost no knowledge of the language (Keroko), and I have to give grammar lessons that would likely have given a professional Japanese teacher pause, if not fits?
Me? Curiosity. As you say, I have almost no knowledge of the language. My knowledge of the written language draws a flat zero, and I can grasp about a quarter of a conversation through the words I've learned over the years of watching anime. Maybe more if they use more familiar words which I can use to puzzle things together. That's why I ask, to get these grammar lessons.

Nagumo has been translating the sound-stages, and if I remember has Japanese relatives. Though you'd better ask her to be sure.
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Old 2008-06-05, 03:48   Link #1266
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Nagumo has been translating the sound-stages, and if I remember has Japanese relatives. Though you'd better ask her to be sure.
Which is why I was (I'll like to use the present tense, but I'm about 2 hours from having to cut this debate short to take a vacation to Seoul, South Korea) trying to see her logic in this. As I said, I don't mind discussion.

Though if "Japanese relatives" are your guide, I've got a Japanese father, a bunch of Japanese relatives living in Japan and so on...

Technically, I'm Japanese too, though to claim that for authority advantage would have been dishonest, since I've been living in Hong Kong and thus my Japanese language skills have been hovering near L3-4 JLPT equivalent until recently, when it jumped to the point I could just hurdle the L1 (fortunately, I didn't have to actually write out those darn kanji...)
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Old 2008-06-05, 04:02   Link #1267
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South Korea? Well, have fun. I'm sure this debate will still be open by the time you get back.
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Old 2008-06-05, 05:54   Link #1268
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Reading you posts would be so much more painful if you were full Japanese, so I thank my stars...
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Old 2008-06-05, 09:12   Link #1269
Nagumo
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The vast majority of conversations I have with my relatives and translations works I've done and seen rarely involve numbers beyond combinations of ones, tens, hundreds, thousands and ten thousands. >_>; So my first gut feeling is to either assume that it means a few hundred. Though admittedly I think I've seen the usage of oku once or twice.

That and every time 'suujuu' is used by people in my life, it never seems to actually correspond with 'tens' of 'hundreds' or any 'tens' of whatever. They usually exaggerate when the number is hell of a lot less.

The Japanese I've learned is either from my parents, through NHK news (leading to an interesting period of time of Japanese NHK speak in my childhood but that's a different story) and through reading Japanese middle school social studies books.

My Japanese level written or spoken would probably formally be between level 3-2 JLPT if I ever had to take the test. So your level Japanese is actually higher than mine. As well as greater access to Asians who would speak the language.

That being said... 1000+ kilometer blast radius is a bit of overkill ain't it? Wouldn't that mean that it could, you know, destroy the entire planet earth if they fired it?
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Old 2008-06-05, 10:42   Link #1270
krisslanza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagumo View Post
The vast majority of conversations I have with my relatives and translations works I've done and seen rarely involve numbers beyond combinations of ones, tens, hundreds, thousands and ten thousands. >_>; So my first gut feeling is to either assume that it means a few hundred. Though admittedly I think I've seen the usage of oku once or twice.

That and every time 'suujuu' is used by people in my life, it never seems to actually correspond with 'tens' of 'hundreds' or any 'tens' of whatever. They usually exaggerate when the number is hell of a lot less.

The Japanese I've learned is either from my parents, through NHK news (leading to an interesting period of time of Japanese NHK speak in my childhood but that's a different story) and through reading Japanese middle school social studies books.

My Japanese level written or spoken would probably formally be between level 3-2 JLPT if I ever had to take the test. So your level Japanese is actually higher than mine. As well as greater access to Asians who would speak the language.

That being said... 1000+ kilometer blast radius is a bit of overkill ain't it? Wouldn't that mean that it could, you know, destroy the entire planet earth if they fired it?
Thats what my friend was saying
If you assume its blast radius is 1000KM+ that means if you shot it at Earth you'd probably leave a crater so big you'd do something reeeaaaalllly bad and kill all life on it

But again we don't really know the blast radius so..
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Old 2008-06-05, 10:46   Link #1271
Kha
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1000km would leave a big hole, but it won't wipe the planet. Given Earth some credit; she survived getting bulldozed by something larger than our current moon before.
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Old 2008-06-05, 10:52   Link #1272
Keroko
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1000km would leave a big hole, but it won't wipe the planet. Given Earth some credit; she survived getting bulldozed by something larger than our current moon before.
... which killed nearly all life on the planet. Not your greatest argument.

Anyway, its safe to say that the Arc en Ciel has a radius of at least 100 Km. Beyond that... well, its up for debate it seems.
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Old 2008-06-05, 10:59   Link #1273
Kha
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Who was talking about life? As long as there's Earth, there will be life. .......

Anyways I believe a 1000km asteroid will have far more repercussions than a 1000km Ion Cannon, because the former "theoretically" carries more kinetic energy than the latter has heat, provided the latter is tuned to flatten things on the surface and not punch into a planet's core.
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Old 2008-06-05, 11:31   Link #1274
Nagumo
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Wait, wait... and the Wolkenritter were only concerned on how such a blast would wipe out Hayate's house?!

It's not just 1000+ km! We're talking multiples of tens! So it's like 1000 - 10000 km or something.
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Old 2008-06-05, 11:36   Link #1275
Keroko
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Only Vita, and concidering that blast would have levelled at least the city, I'm quite surprised Hayate didn't sweatdrop at her statement.

Though my initial question with 'Hyaku suujuu' was if it could mean 'scores of hundreds' which might as well well be 400, or 600.
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Old 2008-06-05, 13:34   Link #1276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
1000km would leave a big hole, but it won't wipe the planet. Given Earth some credit; she survived getting bulldozed by something larger than our current moon before.
Not quite true. The hypothesized size of the asteroid that crashed to Earth and caused the extinction of the dinosaurs is only about 10 km in diameter, while our current moon is about 300 times larger than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Who was talking about life? As long as there's Earth, there will be life. .......

Anyways I believe a 1000km asteroid will have far more repercussions than a 1000km Ion Cannon, because the former "theoretically" carries more kinetic energy than the latter has heat, provided the latter is tuned to flatten things on the surface and not punch into a planet's core.
Considering the speed and mass, I wouldn't say there are going to be much differences, actually. And ion cannons are just as powerful in blasting things apart (impact shockwaves) as they are in punching holes. =3
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Old 2008-06-05, 19:51   Link #1277
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Not quite true. The hypothesized size of the asteroid that crashed to Earth and caused the extinction of the dinosaurs is only about 10 km in diameter, while our current moon is about 300 times larger than that.
I believe he's referring to the impact which supposedly caused the moon to spin off from the Earth in the first place. Supposedly the Earth got hit by something about the size of Mars when it was still a lifeless hunk of rock, which liquefied a good portion of the planet's crust and caused the moon to separate from the rest of the Earth.
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Old 2008-06-06, 00:47   Link #1278
Kha
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
I believe he's referring to the impact which supposedly caused the moon to spin off from the Earth in the first place. Supposedly the Earth got hit by something about the size of Mars when it was still a lifeless hunk of rock, which liquefied a good portion of the planet's crust and caused the moon to separate from the rest of the Earth.
That I was. It supposedly happened not long after the formation of the Solar System, as 2 planets, proto-Earth and proto-Moon, had orbits set on collision course with one another, albeit a few billion years after being set in motion. Earth had her face rearranged, but survived. However, the proto-Moon got completely smashed into a ring of debris that eventually formed the hard reflective rock we know today.

Of course this is just one of the many theories about Earth's geological history.
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Old 2008-06-06, 01:19   Link #1279
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That I was. It supposedly happened not long after the formation of the Solar System, as 2 planets, proto-Earth and proto-Moon, had orbits set on collision course with one another, albeit a few billion years after being set in motion. Earth had her face rearranged, but survived. However, the proto-Moon got completely smashed into a ring of debris that eventually formed the hard reflective rock we know today.

Of course this is just one of the many theories about Earth's geological history.
Ah, the giant impact hypothesis. Well, that I suppose is true. But, you never refute Keroko's point on a life-filled Earth (maybe you did, but it was so vague ) during the impact, so I figured you were talking about the asteroid that struck Earth and sent the dinosaurs to their graves.
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Old 2008-06-06, 02:26   Link #1280
Kha
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Yeah well because, that happened before there was life IIRC. I was refuting Earth getting blown apart by 1 Arc.
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