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Old 2008-07-30, 20:17   Link #1301
Wild Goose
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Use his full name. When we use ark, it refers to arkhangelsk, the self-claimed Math Professor of Nanoha magitech.

(Incidentally: Why arkhangelsk? Did you visit there? Or just thought the russian for archangel sounded cool? Because I remember the russians had a naval base there before... garh, random curiousity before work.)
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Old 2008-07-30, 20:26   Link #1302
Comartemis
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Wikipedia is made by Fan O.o
Doesn't necessarily mean it's inaccurate. Give it a look.

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Quote please. We have never Seen a divine Buster for Excellion, and it seemed to me force burst was out of control.
Would that I had the DVD booklets or the fanbook for these, since you seem to be a wiki-hater...
Force Burst — In this method that requires four cartridges, she fires the shot much like the Divine Buster. Two variations exist for Force Burst: she may fire all arms of the shot at once, or delay the last one until after the others weaken the target's defenses.
Barrel Shot — Nanoha may precede an attack in Excelion Mode with an invisible binding field to prevent the target from moving.

Quote:
An organ? is that why it can be stolen and looks like a glowing spark?...
I know, it sounds weird to me too, but that's what canon says about it. Again, can we get an entry from the DVD booklets on the subject? I don't have sources on those...
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Old 2008-07-30, 20:31   Link #1303
Arkeus
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I am not a "Wiki-hater". I just Believe that people who write those don't have better sources than me on Nanoha.

Those two definitions sounds much like fanmade to me. I'd wait for someone to give the DVD booklet thing.

Myself, i believe that Excellion was imperfect, and thus couldn't make a single continuous precise shot like Divine Buster. Exceed can, though (reworked main frame).

What we see of Force burst is just that - an icomplete overworked spell. Of course...that's just my opinion.

For the magical organ, it can be a way of saying it's something that belongs to someone, but is made of magic?

It's Translated, after all.
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Old 2008-07-30, 20:37   Link #1304
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Arty, it's simple logic actually. Too much ANYTHING in the body is bad for it. Bad things, good things. It doesn't matter. Too much of it, and the body is going to start screwing up.

Too much air causes hyperventilation... too much water causes hyponutremia. Too much adrenaline can cause cardio problems and shock... So it's easily concievable even if it is not directly stated that too much magical energy can be just as nasty to a body not conditioned to handle it as any other more natural material.

I'll even assemble a medical term to make it sound nifty....
"Veneficemia"
- Magic Poisoning

=p
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Old 2008-07-30, 20:47   Link #1305
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So it's easily concievable even if it is not directly stated that too much magical energy can be just as nasty to a body not conditioned to handle it as any other more natural material.
And mages--particularly Belkan Knights, who depend on their bodies having high magic tolerances to use their enhancement spells--somehow aren't conditioned to be able to handle their magic as a part of their training? I find that somewhat hard to believe.
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Old 2008-07-30, 20:51   Link #1306
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
And mages--particularly Belkan Knights, who depend on their bodies having high magic tolerances to use their enhancement spells--somehow aren't conditioned to be able to handle their magic as a part of their training? I find that somewhat hard to believe.
I'm not even going that route, so you're safe there. 'kay?

I'm simply pointing out that there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. In the case of say, a Belken Knight as you're going with here. Too Much, is Much Higher. But you can STILL get Too Much.
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Old 2008-07-30, 20:54   Link #1307
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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
An organ? is that why it can be stolen and looks like a glowing spark?...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
I know, it sounds weird to me too, but that's what canon says about it. Again, can we get an entry from the DVD booklets on the subject? I don't have sources on those...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
For the magical organ, it can be a way of saying it's something that belongs to someone, but is made of magic?

It's Translated, after all.
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Originally Posted by selkirk View Post
From A's DVD booklet #1

リンカーコア - Linker Core
As the name suggests, an organ in a mage's (knight's) body which works to gather and manifest magic power generated within themself.
The disposition of a mage thus depends on their Linker Core, and currently any analysis of a mage's abilities are done by examining the Linker Core.
Anyway, the writers often give confusing or even outright contradictory explanations of things, so who knows.
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Old 2008-07-30, 20:57   Link #1308
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
I'm not even going that route, so you're safe there. 'kay?

I'm simply pointing out that there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. In the case of say, a Belken Knight as you're going with here. Too Much, is Much Higher. But you can STILL get Too Much.
Perhaps. But I think part of being a knight and training to have stronger and better enhancement spells is training your body to be able to handle more and more amounts of magical energy; what's the point of having an S-ranked linker core if you can only use E-ranked enhancement spells without giving yourself a stroke?

The abilities of a well-trained Belkan Knight should logically be defined by what level of magic their linker cores can handle, not how much magic their bodies can withstand before giving out. If you're defining a knight's abilities by the limits of magic their bodies can contain, I think you've done something wrong while training that knight.
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Old 2008-07-30, 21:07   Link #1309
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Perhaps. But I think part of being a knight and training to have stronger and better enhancement spells is training your body to be able to handle more and more amounts of magical energy; what's the point of having an S-ranked linker core if you can only use E-ranked enhancement spells without giving yourself a stroke?

The abilities of a well-trained Belkan Knight should logically be defined by what level of magic their linker cores can handle, not how much magic their bodies can withstand before giving out. If you're defining a knight's abilities by the limits of magic their bodies can contain, I think you've done something wrong while training that knight.
Now you've lost me.

Like I've said. Too much of a good thing can be bad. Obviously, for your trained knight, the Too Much Point is so much higher, that it's effectively a non-issue, unless you start throwing around arteficial boosts and their side-effects.


But imagine the unsafe cases. Those with high power, no training, and have the resources to take advantage of it before they are effectively ready. Like a Nanoha without sage council of a ferret and her own device.

Or how about Hayate, after kicking the crap out of the main defense program, passed out after having used her high level power for effectively the first time... that was just channeling massive amounts of power into external attacks. Could you imagine the damage done had she been channelling it for close quarters fisticuffs? Ouchies. I could see Bad Things happening from such oversaturation. Her body was already in Delta Sierra as it was.
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Old 2008-07-30, 22:05   Link #1310
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Overtraining is a problem in the real world, too. ;p

Professional athletes don't typically train at 100% every day, especially in high-contact sports like football. You train hard enough to do some good for your stamina, but not so hard that you're putting significant wear on the connective tissue. If you go all out every day, or if you train without regard to your physical limits, you've got a good chance of blowing out an ACL or something. Lots of athletes have good abilities in high school, but suffer an injury at one point or another, and never get to the big leagues because they never recover back to competitive levels.

So it's not going too far to imagine that magic can work the same way. Basically, in Strikers, they assert that Nanoha (a) injured herself through excessive use of powerful magic when she was younger (and further because she got attacked), and (b) injured herself through the events late in Strikers, costing her a few percent of her maximum potential (though she's proven the docs wrong before, so maybe she can get it back.)

We don't know for certain that Nanoha's problems aren't unique. Fate and Hayate didn't have the same problems (though neither of them are the beamspamming monsters that Nanoha is, nor did they get into enough scraps to pick up nicknames, so maybe that helped.) The problem isn't so widespread that everyone knows about it, or it wouldn't have come as a surprise to the forwards; they'd have been cautioned against it in their basic training.

We also have good reason to believe that the Linker Core is one resilient lil' bugger. Nanoha's and Fate's take a hell of a beating in A's and they bounce back in a short time span. Then again, "drained" might not be the same kind of damage as "overloaded".

So we can conclude that this is a problem that Nanoha ran into more than once, but that the majority of mages don't run into. Is it just that Nanoha's that hellishly powerful, and weaker mages can't overwork themselves into injury? Or is it just that Nanoha has a habit of fighting over her weight class, and that any mage that regularly trains like an idiot would run into this problem? We can't really know. But we can see why Nanoha would be specially careful, especially if she's intentionally taking relatively weak mages and working the hell out of them.
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Old 2008-07-31, 02:15   Link #1311
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I'd guess that it's a matter of technique rather than personal power; Blaster is specifically a limit-breaking/overdrive technique, and her earlier problems were attributed to using collection magic and especially the then-rare cartridge system, both of which allow the mage to interface with magical power in amounts exceeding what their body could inflict on itself.

Less about overwork, more about having rare abilities/equipment that allow you to do things to your body you normally wouldn't be able to.
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Old 2008-07-31, 02:24   Link #1312
Arkeus
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Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
I'd guess that it's a matter of technique rather than personal power; Blaster is specifically a limit-breaking/overdrive technique, and her earlier problems were attributed to using collection magic and especially the then-rare cartridge system, both of which allow the mage to interface with magical power in amounts exceeding what their body could inflict on itself.

Less about overwork, more about having rare abilities/equipment that allow you to do things to your body you normally wouldn't be able to.
Well yeah, except that Nanoha's Starlight Breaker in the 1st season was supposed to be too much too.

On the other hand, i have my own theories about how normal Starlight Breaker is.
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Old 2008-07-31, 03:11   Link #1313
Keroko
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It is possible to overstress your body with the use of magic, however its a good thing to note that there is a specific reason for Nanoha's injuries:


集束砲 - Accumulatory Cannonfire
(StS DVD3)
Spells which uses one’s own mana to accumulate released Mana in the surroundings, then reuses and re-releases it as a bombardment attack.
These accumulatory skills are unique in that they allow reuse of Mana which has already been used. Furthermore, in addition to magic released by the user, Mana released by any opponents can also be collected and reused, allowing enormous output potential. For Bombardment Mages, these attacks can be said to be nigh-impossible ultimate attacks; however, in cases dealing with Mana levels greatly exceeding the user’s limits, the burden placed on the user’s body can be prodigious.

Nanoha's favourite spell, Starlight Breaker, doesn't just use her own mana, but also the mana from her surroundings. Basically, she is using more mana then she can handle. From this, we can see that the body has a certain amount of mana, which you can do one of three things with:
  • deplete it: You deplete your mana, get tired, and stop because you can't go on. The same as doing some hard sporting, and has the lowest chance of physical harm
  • overuse it: Even though you can't go further, or can't go on, you keep pushing yourself, activatig Overdrives to pull out just that little bit more to get extra performance, similar to swallowing XTC to keep going, dangerous in the long run.
  • overcharge it: You charge your body with more mana then you have, overcharging it because your body simply can't handle the strain. Picture filling a bottle with water, the bottle being the body and the water being mana. You can fill the bottle with water and empty it, then refill it again with no problems. Overcharging means that you try to forcefully put in more water then the bottle can handle, eventually the bottle will crack, or worse, break.

Nanoha did the last, she filled her body with more mana then she could handle, causing the body to 'crack' this would have been bad on its own, but since there were enemies around, it just got worse.

So based on this, Hayate can do far bigger and nastier spells with less side effects, why? Because her mana pool, or her 'bottle' is bigger, so she can handle more mana before she even needs to try and overcharge it.
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Old 2008-07-31, 03:39   Link #1314
Arkeus
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oh, so that is canon? where did you get that?

It was the "theory" i was thinking about, though in a different way.

In my Negima/Nanoha Cross, it will be Revealed Nanoha can't use elemental or spirit based spell, but is instead a pure mana type. She can do things with mana other can't, but can't do things most people can.

One of these things is the reuse of mana.

It's my way of explaining why Takamichi can't incant spells (the negima verse mainly use elements or spirits, and never use equations).
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Old 2008-07-31, 04:05   Link #1315
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It started from "Let's give Hayate tremendous power boost for physical close combat because she has huge chakr... mana pool!" in an attempt to deshaft her.

I say NO. It's a big NO. Yes, there are such a thing as people dying from training well beyond their limits, users of enhancing drugs dying because of a heart attack (it's only the drug's fault? Body has its limits too), and this is for olympic athletes. And Hayate just happens to not be one.

And why do "HAYATE NEEDS CLOSE COMBAT!" always crawl back? I thought that people has proposed solutions for her to make use of her strenghts.
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Old 2008-07-31, 04:08   Link #1316
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oh, and my own take on Hayate: Her "large pool" is a product of the Tome of the Night Sky i believe, so as it's artificial, and Belkan may not have perfected the use (hence why it went on rampage) i'd say that it cost her a lot of control.
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Old 2008-07-31, 04:17   Link #1317
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oh, and my own take on Hayate: Her "large pool" is a product of the Tome of the Night Sky i believe, so as it's artificial, and Belkan may not have perfected the use (hence why it went on rampage) i'd say that it cost her a lot of control.
That's why she has an unison device to assist her in control.

Look, the solution to make Hayate flashier and de-shaft her is just under people's nose. She is a "bomber", she has large mana pool, she has Rein to assist her and Nanoha movie's director has expressed his wish to make the Nanoha's aerial mages fights less "STAND! AIM CHARGE SHOOT! *repeat*".

From these elements, it is not so hard to turn Hayate into a Touhou shooter boss with hardcore barrage of bullets and deadly labyrinth of lasers of doom. Here she can just lol at the fool who tries to melee her. He is in range? No problem, she can flee with her magic. Either with her own version of Flash Move or by using a space folding spell.
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Old 2008-07-31, 04:25   Link #1318
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Like you said sheba, it started from Comar announcing more ideas, which then lead to this.

@Arkeus: Most of our theories and data were mostly based on anime/soundstage material. And sometimes 7Arcs tries to give us a hand by releasing (sometimes weird) data as DVD extras. That example Keroko quoted was from the DVD.

I won't comment on your revealed Nanoha theory in Negiha, cos I wonder where does that go, if not the OC thread?

But for the Tome, Chrono mentioned that the Book of the Night Sky was altered some point in its history, resulting in the Book of Darkness. So Belka technology isn't at fault in this aspect.

The method Sheba mentioned it just 1 part of my 2 pronged approach: spam and crowd control. Just like that, Hayate would become very viable at CQC, and at range she'd just blast you to bits. Why can't people accept that Hayate isn't Negi?!
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Old 2008-07-31, 04:45   Link #1319
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But for the Tome, Chrono mentioned that the Book of the Night Sky was altered some point in its history, resulting in the Book of Darkness. So Belka technology isn't at fault in this aspect.
I assumed that it was altered by Belkan in order to not only get spells but also power, resulting into the Defense program going berserk.

But that's jsut my theory
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Old 2008-07-31, 04:57   Link #1320
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That's my theory as well, Belka had a habbit of altering Lost Logia after all.

Though Mid did the same, probably. History does say that Lost Logia were comonly used before the TSAB got around.
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