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Old 2008-09-02, 15:55   Link #1441
Evangelion Xgouki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
They aren't, ships of Arthra's class are patrol ships. The Claudia type Chrono flies around in are the warships, and they carry more then just an Arc en Ciel. Even their regular magical cannons could charge and fire a barage that took out the Cradle in 3 seconds.
The Arthra was fitted with the Arc en Ciel just for the YnS mission so it's not standard equipment for that type of vessel. Would seem it might be modular.

To give the Cradle some credit, it was under heavy fire before it left the atmosphere, was on emergency power since its primary power core was destroyed, and had internal damage thanks to one Nanoha Takamachi .
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Old 2008-09-02, 16:18   Link #1442
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Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
I'd be more interested in seeing it mainly to finally find out how big the Arc-en-Ciel's firing range really is. Since both times we've seen it used the target was rather close and the ship (or ships in Graham's case) had to all transfer as soon as the shot was fired to not get blown up in the process.
Well, its been stated that the range of the shot is smaller then the blast radius, so the range of the Arc en Ciel should be around 100 kilometer. I think they did a lot of balancing on this one. Anything hit by an Arc en Ciel shot is guaranteed to get killed, so they balanced it by giving it a few major disadvantages.

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Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
To give the Cradle some credit, it was under heavy fire before it left the atmosphere, was on emergency power since its primary power core was destroyed, and had internal damage thanks to one Nanoha Takamachi .
True, it does somewhat rob the glory out of the kill, but it still shows the TSAB has more then just the Arc en Ciel to fall back on should they ever fight a war in space.
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Old 2008-09-02, 16:26   Link #1443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
They aren't, ships of Arthra's class are patrol ships, usually weaponless. The Claudia type Chrono flies around in are the warships, and they carry more then just an Arc en Ciel. Even their regular magical cannons could charge and fire a barage that took out the Cradle in 3 seconds.
It was called a 'Cruise Patrol Warship' (Emphasis mine.)

Just because the guns are normally removed, doesn't mean it's suddenly a civilian ship. It's a Warship, just not a battleship.

Thus the 'barely' part of 'barely designated'.
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Old 2008-09-02, 16:27   Link #1444
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
True, it does somewhat rob the glory out of the kill, but it still shows the TSAB has more then just the Arc en Ciel to fall back on should they ever fight a war in space.
I'd like to see some evidence of magical snubfighters before I start pitting the TSA against dedicated space-bound forces, if it's all the same to you.
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Old 2008-09-02, 16:37   Link #1445
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
I'd like to see some evidence of magical snubfighters before I start pitting the TSA against dedicated space-bound forces, if it's all the same to you.
Especially those of us who utilize weapons that range from multi-megaton per shot weapons, to kinetic energy projectile weapons that are used at lightsecond ranges... to FTL torpedos that get used at ranges of several astronomical units with multi-megaton yields.

Dedicated space combat forces have a brutal tactical advantage in combat prowess over anything the cruisers have shown. Range, rate of fire, detection, manueverability...


There's a reason I keep calling TSAB cruisers 'golden guns'.

The golden gun being the single shot certain kill pistol from Goldeneye 007... that's how I see the cruisers.
They're guaranteed to kill if they shoot you... but if they miss, they have to 'reload'... And in the case of going toe to toe with dedicated space forces, who deliver swarms of heavy weapons fire... it's not a good position to hold that your only weapon is a golden gun when you're going up against a couple of machine gun nests.
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Old 2008-09-02, 16:49   Link #1446
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Especially those of us who utilize weapons that range from multi-megaton per shot weapons, to kinetic energy projectile weapons that are used at lightsecond ranges... to FTL torpedos that get used at ranges of several astronomical units with multi-megaton yields.


I was thinking something a little more mundane... you know, like a Star Destroyer.
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Old 2008-09-02, 16:51   Link #1447
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post


I was thinking something a little more mundane... you know, like a Star Destroyer.
A giant slice of moldy cheese in space? ()
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Old 2008-09-02, 17:04   Link #1448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
It was called a 'Cruise Patrol Warship' (Emphasis mine.)
It was? Huh, I thought it was just a patrol ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Just because the guns are normally removed, doesn't mean it's suddenly a civilian ship. It's a Warship, just not a battleship.

Thus the 'barely' part of 'barely designated'.
I don't know how it goes overseas, but in our militairy, calling a ship a patrol ship doesn't immediately make it a civilian ship. It just means the ship is designed and/or used for patrols, not combat.

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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
I'd like to see some evidence of magical snubfighters before I start pitting the TSA against dedicated space-bound forces, if it's all the same to you.
I don't see the TSAB using snubfighters at all. Who knows? If such a scenario ever comes we might see mages in space.

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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
There's a reason I keep calling TSAB cruisers 'golden guns'.

The golden gun being the single shot certain kill pistol from Goldeneye 007... that's how I see the cruisers.
They're guaranteed to kill if they shoot you... but if they miss, they have to 'reload'... And in the case of going toe to toe with dedicated space forces, who deliver swarms of heavy weapons fire... it's not a good position to hold that your only weapon is a golden gun when you're going up against a couple of machine gun nests.
And yet, ironically, getting your hand on a Golden Gun and a few crates of ammo means you'll be dominating the match. I've never lost a match when I got my hands on a Golden Gun. In fact, we simply banned the Golden Gun from being used because it always became a 'the one who gets the Golden Gun first wins' match.

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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post


I was thinking something a little more mundane... you know, like a Star Destroyer.
Not exactly the best of choices. Star destroyers have a reputation for being targets rather then mobile warships, and I don't think a Star destroyers shields, even those of an Impstar Deuce, can stand up to an Arc en Ciel. Heck, concidering the power we've seen of them I think the Claudia-type Madoho can already tear through them.

As much as I love my precious SD's, and will defend them to the death against many ships, I don't think they outblast a Nanoha-type ship.
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Old 2008-09-02, 17:09   Link #1449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Well, its been stated that the range of the shot is smaller then the blast radius, so the range of the Arc en Ciel should be around 100 kilometer. I think they did a lot of balancing on this one. Anything hit by an Arc en Ciel shot is guaranteed to get killed, so they balanced it by giving it a few major disadvantages.
A weapon that kills the shooter in the process... . That's sounds like a portable nuke that is used as a granade
I'm not sure about the minimal distance a ship/spaceship or whatever is called, needs to keep from earth to keep orbiting, but the Arthra was about to shoot arc en ciel down to earth while orbiting it (in A's). So Arc en Ciel explosion would reach space orbits?
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Old 2008-09-02, 17:16   Link #1450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I don't see the TSAB using snubfighters at all. Who knows? If such a scenario ever comes we might see mages in space.
Mages...in SPACE!...space...space...space...space...

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Originally Posted by Deadwings View Post
A weapon that kills the shooter in the process... . That's sounds like a portable nuke that is used as a granade
I'm not sure about the minimal distance a ship/spaceship or whatever is called, needs to keep from earth to keep orbiting, but the Arthra was about to shoot arc en ciel down to earth while orbiting it (in A's). So Arc en Ciel explosion would reach space orbits?
I think it was more so the after-effect of the blast that they were more worried about (kinda like a nuke where the initial strike zone is destroyed but damage can be caused kilometers away cause of the blastwave, heat, etc).
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Old 2008-09-02, 17:27   Link #1451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadwings View Post
A weapon that kills the shooter in the process... . That's sounds like a portable nuke that is used as a granade
Except that the one throwing the grenade can't shift to another dimension to avoid getting fried himself.

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Originally Posted by Deadwings View Post
I'm not sure about the minimal distance a ship/spaceship or whatever is called, needs to keep from earth to keep orbiting, but the Arthra was about to shoot arc en ciel down to earth while orbiting it (in A's). So Arc en Ciel explosion would reach space orbits?
200 KM is possible, we've already had sattelite's around that range, though I'm not sure about any closer ranges. But since the Arthra is a ship rather then a sattelite, I think it could get closer, fire a shot, and then get out again by shifting dimensions.
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Old 2008-09-03, 00:49   Link #1452
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Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
The Arthra was fitted with the Arc en Ciel just for the YnS mission so it's not standard equipment for that type of vessel. Would seem it might be modular.

To give the Cradle some credit, it was under heavy fire before it left the atmosphere, was on emergency power since its primary power core was destroyed, and had internal damage thanks to one Nanoha Takamachi .
Uhm, plus they took away Vivio. Wasn't there some blurb to the effect that the ship's defenses benefit from its connection to the Saint?

The Cradle at full power would be a match for damn near anything if it can fire from adjacent dimensions like Yuuno said.
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Old 2008-09-03, 00:57   Link #1453
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I got the impression that the patrol vessels aren't exactly front-line combatants. I mean, think about it, Precia rocked the Arthra pretty hard with -just her own magic-. Sure, sucker punch and all that, but let's keep a little perspective.

It's tough to talk about TSAB and space battles, because (a) we haven't ever seen one and (b) that's not what Nanoha is about. I still like the British empire analogy, though - the individual ships are good, they've got a goodly amount of autonomy, and they're capable of punching the living hell out of anything the "natives" can throw up, even if they're not actually invincible. And somewhere there's a big fleet with the ships of the line, but it's not the one that fights in skirmishes out in the border regions.
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Old 2008-09-03, 10:13   Link #1454
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
I got the impression that the patrol vessels aren't exactly front-line combatants. I mean, think about it, Precia rocked the Arthra pretty hard with -just her own magic-. Sure, sucker punch and all that, but let's keep a little perspective.

It's tough to talk about TSAB and space battles, because (a) we haven't ever seen one and (b) that's not what Nanoha is about. I still like the British empire analogy, though - the individual ships are good, they've got a goodly amount of autonomy, and they're capable of punching the living hell out of anything the "natives" can throw up, even if they're not actually invincible. And somewhere there's a big fleet with the ships of the line, but it's not the one that fights in skirmishes out in the border regions.
Agreed

Most likely The TSAB's warship have other weapons, including Patrol Warships, but because MSLN is not about Space Battles we're not going to see what any of the warships can do.

Was U.S. Navy myself until I screwed my Leg up.
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Old 2008-09-03, 10:29   Link #1455
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And I find it hard to think that a good idea won't be found elsewhere. After all, various geologically-separate cultures tackled the problem of gravity in reaching for the sky by building pyramids.

It would be a good educated guess to make that the TSAB, even with cultural variations, should have "in-principle" snub-fighters and carriers. Since they have tanks to support Ground mages, I believe while space-faring mages will be the "snub-fighter", they would be deployed with transports and armed transports escorted by dedicated gunboats in a small-to-moderate sized conflict.

And they definitely have carriers and dimensional jumpships; its a lesson the 97th superpowers learnt, and I don't see why didn't the TSAB, who did not just unify a world, but an entire multiverse. We just don't see them because these are massive dedicated warcraft and would most probably be deployed exclusively in contested territory, like in dimensional gulfs bordering with failed Belka despots for example.
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Old 2008-09-03, 11:50   Link #1456
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I dunno, Kha. For one thing, if the TSAB was involved in actual wars, they'd be better at it. (We've had this discussion already, after all...)

Part of it just turns on what's technologically feasible. We don't know how "small" they can make a ship and still have it do what it does. If you can make a one-man ship, put a mage in it, and it can move between dimensions, neat; you've got fighters, and logically carrier-transports to go with them.

But that model works well in this world, where it's a lot easier to throw an explosive than to block one with armor. How well would a teeny fighter, powered by one mage and whatever reactor they can throw in there, be able to penetrate the shields of a major vessel? If a big guy can shrug off a fighter's attack with no damage at all, then even if you've got a bunch of fighters, they may not prove that effective. (Also, the attrition would be pretty horrendous, and again, culturally I don't think that would mesh with what we've seen of the TSAB military.)

If you've ever read the Honor Harrington books, that gives you an idea of some of the problems of space combat against shielded enemies. The only reason you get anything fighter-like is because those shields have plot-oriented chinks. So it's all going to depend on a lot of technical capabilities related to stuff we haven't seen and probably won't...
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Old 2008-09-03, 11:51   Link #1457
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
I got the impression that the patrol vessels aren't exactly front-line combatants. I mean, think about it, Precia rocked the Arthra pretty hard with -just her own magic-. Sure, sucker punch and all that, but let's keep a little perspective.

It's tough to talk about TSAB and space battles, because (a) we haven't ever seen one and (b) that's not what Nanoha is about. I still like the British empire analogy, though - the individual ships are good, they've got a goodly amount of autonomy, and they're capable of punching the living hell out of anything the "natives" can throw up, even if they're not actually invincible. And somewhere there's a big fleet with the ships of the line, but it's not the one that fights in skirmishes out in the border regions.
TSAB as the transdimensional equivalent of old British Empire? I like that. Now need the old declining Empire that put up an uprising like the Boxers. Oh wait, we have one, the Belkan.
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Old 2008-09-03, 14:16   Link #1458
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If you've ever read the Honor Harrington books, that gives you an idea of some of the problems of space combat against shielded enemies. The only reason you get anything fighter-like is because those shields have plot-oriented chinks.
Apparently someone's never heard of bombers.

Now I'm not half as much a milotaku as some of the others around here, but I played an awful lot of TIE Fighter in my day and I know where starfighters fit into the grand scheme of a space battle. Pardon the extensive Star Wars references, but this is the best way I know of to explain my point.

The single biggest advantage a snubfighter has over a capital ship is that it is extremely difficult for the main guns of a ship like a Star Destroyer to pinpoint and attack ships much smaller than they are; sure a turbolaser will blow away a starfighter in one shot (two if it's a glancing hit), but it's still much easier for a snubfighter outfitted with anti-capital ship weapons like proton torpedoes to do damage to a big hulking target like a capital ship than it is for a capital ship to gun down lots of little starfighters, especially when there's bigger targets that those guns could be used on, like the carrier that launched those fighters or the battleship that's launching barrages of hot plasma up your ass. This is where lightly-armed fighters like A-wings come in; they're supposed to serve as interceptors, to take down the bombers and free up the capital ship's guns to concentrate on larger targets. And of course if one side has fighters then the other side is going to have their own fighters to protect their bombers.

Then there's the varied role fighter-bombers like X-wings, which can serve in both roles without emphasis on one or the other, and the heavy assault fighters like B-wings and Skipray Blastboats, which place a focus on the bomber role but aren't completely helpless in a dogfight either.

Even in history you see something like this in many of the major air battles. The Battle of Britain had the Luftwaffe's bombers attacking British targets (the "capital ships") while the RAF dueled with their escort fighters and tried to shoot down as many bombers as they could. You see something similar in the great carrier duels in the Pacific theater of operations, with US and Japanese fighters dogfighting with each other while each side's torpedo bombers go after the carriers.

Snubfighters may not be the capital ship killing machines that they are in the X-wing novels, but they definitely offer a tactical advantage that can turn a battle one way or the other, and no self-respecting military force capable of spaceflight should be caught dead without them.
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Old 2008-09-03, 14:29   Link #1459
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It should be noted though that the Star Wars universe CS's seems to be completely lacking in anti-missile Point Defence, or at least the practical use of it (neither the games nor the novels have ever shown ships blasting torps out of space before they hit, despite the fact that in the game it's the easiest defence) something mages have in abundance. Axel Shooter comes to mind, heck, we've already seen practical use of PD in episode 16.

A better example of Snubs VS capital ships would be Episode 1, where the fighters were helpess against the enemy Capital Ship. Yes, yes, I know that in the end it was still a fighter that saved the day, but that was more a combination of luck and incompetence then an actual tactical move. Not to mention SD's don't share that drone-ships weakness.

Can fighters be very effective when used tacticaly? Certainly. Would 'no self-respecting military force capable of spaceflight should be caught dead without them?' Hardly.

send one or two Lancers to acompany an SD and even a few Squadrons of snubfighters will be biting the dust.

Botomline: TSAB doesn't really need snubfighters. Their mages can take care of misiles and snubfighters by shooting them down with Axel Shooter and homing type spells, and the main guns take care of the capital ships.
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Old 2008-09-03, 14:56   Link #1460
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It should be noted though that the Star Wars universe CS's seems to be completely lacking in anti-missile Point Defence, or at least the practical use of it (neither the games nor the novels have ever shown ships blasting torps out of space before they hit) something mages have in abundance. Axel Shooter comes to mind, heck, we've already seen practical use of PD in episode 16.
An excellent point, Kero, though I'd have to go back and take another look at 16 to know exactly which scene you're referring to.

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A better example of Snubs VS capital ships would be Episode 1, where the fighters were helpess against the enemy Capital Ship.
Note: fighters. Not bombers. Only someone who's completely insane or utterly desperate would pit escort fighters against a battleship like that. You need something with a bigger punch, like the proton bombs on the NB-1S Royal Bomber, if you're planning on whacking a hardened target like that.

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Their mages can take care of misiles and snubfighters by shooting them down with Axel Shooter and homing type spells, and the main guns take care of the capital ships.
That depends entirely on the capabilities of enemy ships, particularly the strength of the shields on them. It's one thing to have mages rocketing around in outer space, but they won't do much good if your typical C-rank shooting spell just bounces off an enemy ship's shields.

This is why I think the TSA needs snubfighters, especially when they're going up against other magic-capable civilizations. A magitech snubfighter could vastly increase the amount of power your typical redshirt mage is capable of harnessing through tech attached to a one of these starfighters, and allow them to fight on level ground with snubfighters they otherwise wouldn't be able to scratch.

To illustrate my point, there's an image floating around the internet of Hayate hooked up to a scaled-down version of Gundam SEED's METEOR system. Even God probably doesn't know what she'd be capable of with that thing amplifying her attacks. Now take that concept and apply it to rank-and-file TSA troops and you've got a respectable fighting force that's ready to duke it out with pretty much every sci-fi military force I can think of.
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