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Old 2008-09-03, 15:06   Link #1461
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
An excellent point, Kero, though I'd have to go back and take another look at 16 to know exactly which scene you're referring to.
It was the scene in which Agito uses a multi-target attack to take down Vita's shots. It didn't work as well as she thought it would, as Agito didn't think she'd be facing physical shots, but its a good example nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Note: fighters. Not bombers. Only someone who's completely insane or utterly desperate would pit escort fighters against a battleship like that. You need something with a bigger punch, like the proton bombs on the NB-1S Royal Bomber, if you're planning on whacking a hardened target like that.
Which automatically renders your X-wing analogy pretty useless as well, at any rate lumbering bombers are a hellalot easier to shoot down.

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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
That depends entirely on the capabilities of enemy ships, particularly the strength of the shields on them. It's one thing to have mages rocketing around in outer space, but they won't do much good if your typical C-rank shooting spell just bounces off an enemy ship's shields.
Which means we're just working with guesswork here. And completely unsuported guesswork at that. I mean, by that logic I can say that even a bombers proton bombs wouldn't even dent a TSAB capital ships shields.
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Old 2008-09-03, 15:22   Link #1462
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Which means we're just working with guesswork here. And completely unsuported guesswork at that. I mean, by that logic I can say that even a bombers proton bombs wouldn't even dent a TSAB capital ships shields.
For all we know you're right about that. That's part of the reason why I like the idea of magical snubfighters so much, because the capabilities of TSA warships is almost a complete unknown at this point and we're free to make stuff up for use in Outer Cadia.

Besides; Hayate + METEOR system. Don't even try to tell me you don't want to see how much ass she could kick with one of those things strapped to her back.
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Old 2008-09-03, 15:37   Link #1463
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
For all we know you're right about that. That's part of the reason why I like the idea of magical snubfighters so much, because the capabilities of TSA warships is almost a complete unknown at this point and we're free to make stuff up for use in Outer Cadia.

Besides; Hayate + METEOR system. Don't even try to tell me you don't want to see how much ass she could kick with one of those things strapped to her back.
You Mean this one:

Spoiler for hayate:


I want to see ALL 3 Aces kick ass in one of these. Just think on how many they can 'befriend' with one of these bad boy on.
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Old 2008-09-03, 15:47   Link #1464
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
For all we know you're right about that. That's part of the reason why I like the idea of magical snubfighters so much, because the capabilities of TSA warships is almost a complete unknown at this point and we're free to make stuff up for use in Outer Cadia.

Besides; Hayate + METEOR system. Don't even try to tell me you don't want to see how much ass she could kick with one of those things strapped to her back.
I don't know... after watching Sky Girls and currently watching Strike Witches, which are more tech then magic, I remembered that rather like Nanoha's balance between tech and magic. Sure, the devices are high-tech, but there are a lot of magic elements that clearly show you're watching a magic show.

Putting Hayate in one of those would make one wonder if its Hayate doing the blasting, or the thing she's in. So no, I don't really want to see that.
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Old 2008-09-03, 15:51   Link #1465
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The discussion on the use of fighters in SF space battle depend alot on writers fiat, we can see them in "Legend of Galactic Heroes" because the author want to use "close" engagements, on the other spectrum you will find "Banner of the Star" or "the Culture" settings where a fighter doesnt have a place.
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Old 2008-09-03, 15:58   Link #1466
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I don't know... after watching Sky Girls and currently watching Strike Witches, which are more tech then magic, I remembered that rather like Nanoha's balance between tech and magic. Sure, the devices are high-tech, but there are a lot of magic elements that clearly show you're watching a magic show.

Putting Hayate in one of those would make one wonder if its Hayate doing the blasting, or the thing she's in. So no, I don't really want to see that.
I'd like to think that the machine would be Enhancing what they already have, probably to go up against capital ships, or at least run off their Linker Cores.

BTW Ive watched Sky Girls and Strike Witches as well and they Don't have the beam spamming that Nanoha has, But interesting to see though
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Old 2008-09-03, 23:53   Link #1467
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Exactly what I meant in armed transports and gunboats. The snubbers' job falls to the mages, but when they need more spell penetration, their escorts and transports can go shooty on the harder targets. Like a tooled up Devilfish and Hammerhead Gunship supporting Firewarriors or several equivalent configurations in 40K.

Need proper handling though, to involve all of TSAB's possible arsenal and yet not lose the magical girl bits. In that aspect, fan material who have a significant mecha fan pop not surprisingly tends to go heavy on machinery, and I'm no exception, but I believe I'm close to the proper level.
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Old 2008-09-04, 00:27   Link #1468
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Like I said, it all depends on what the writers would decide.

Keep in mind that the unique element of Nanoha-type technology is a certain amount of autonomy and AI-assisted control. Even down to the grunt level, it's a lot harder to dodge a Nanoha-type homing attack than a normal bomb, missile, or shell. It's perfectly reasonable that they've got the same capabilities on up the line. Therefore, dismissing a theoretical capital ship's armament as "too unresponsive to hit small fighters" strikes me as somewhat counterintuitive. If anything, you'd expect them to be extremely good at that sort of thing.

Also, keep in mind that the timing of your historical analogy is important. You mention carrier battles in WW2 - indeed, this is a good example of why carrier air power is important. However, if you pick, say, 1927 for your date instead, you can easily see why admirals still believed the battleship to be queen of the seas. Bombers existed, torpedo planes existed, carriers existed... but the associated technologies that let fighters find and effectively attack naval units, by and large, didn't exist. Part of it was technological, part of it was evolving the correct doctrines for carrier air operations, part of it was that major naval vessels (even in WW2) weren't designed with the role of air defense in mind, and didn't have adequate anti-air armament.

Does that mean fighters don't make any sense in Nanoha? No, not as such. But it's an imperfect fit at best. Nanoha places significant emphasis on the abilities of individual mages and there's not a good booster technology - even cartridges don't make Subaru a "threat" to Nanoha, and there's not really anything that could. Thus, a fighter with an inferior mage pilot would be overwhelmingly reliant on the technological systems as opposed to the magical ones - and that cuts against the Nanoha-verse grain. Also, think about the utter carnage an S-rank fighter pilot would cause pitted against swarms of lousy mages in fighters. (Hell... would the S-ranker even need a vessel?)

Finally, if carrier vessels were an important part of the TSAB military, we might expect at least an off-hand reference to them. Naval aviation pilots are an elite in the navy; we've got lots of elites running around in Nanoha, but they're not fighter jocks. Or rather, they are, but -without fighters-...
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Old 2008-09-04, 00:53   Link #1469
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I have to agree with Mages taking the role of Fighters. Look at the last few episodes of StrikerS when they were attacking the Cradle the only aircraft that you see, besides the Arthra (or is it Asura), are Helicopters. No fighters could be seen, you would think that if they had them they would use them.

On that note, Fighters would still be useful to the TSAB. Mainly because not everyone who's part of the TSA is a mage. It definitely make non-mages more useful even allowing them to be on par, with the TSA's Technology, with their mage comrades.





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Old 2008-09-04, 11:17   Link #1470
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Originally Posted by Seraph42 View Post
I have to agree with Mages taking the role of Fighters. Look at the last few episodes of StrikerS when they were attacking the Cradle the only aircraft that you see, besides the Arthra (or is it Asura), are Helicopters. No fighters could be seen, you would think that if they had them they would use them.

On that note, Fighters would still be useful to the TSAB. Mainly because not everyone who's part of the TSA is a mage. It definitely make non-mages more useful even allowing them to be on par, with the TSA's Technology, with their mage comrades.
There's also the question of whether barrier jackets can provide and maintain an artificial atmosphere for space combat mages. Personally I think if you're going to have Mages in Space, they're going to need some powered armor to maintain a life support system or at least boost power to the barrier jacket's environmental hazard defense fields (can you say "mecha musume"? ).

Also the TSA's big thing is that none of their weapons can be used by people who aren't trained mages; I think snubfighters that non-mages can use would qualify as mass-based weapons, even if they were powered by artificial linker cores or something of the like.
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Old 2008-09-04, 12:47   Link #1471
Seraph42
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
There's also the question of whether barrier jackets can provide and maintain an artificial atmosphere for space combat mages. Personally I think if you're going to have Mages in Space, they're going to need some powered armor to maintain a life support system or at least boost power to the barrier jacket's environmental hazard defense fields (can you say "mecha musume"? ).

Also the TSA's big thing is that none of their weapons can be used by people who aren't trained mages; I think snubfighters that non-mages can use would qualify as mass-based weapons, even if they were powered by artificial linker cores or something of the like.
Most likely Their barrier jacket can provide an artificial atmospher, it is after all a combination of magic and technology. At the very least it may need a small tweak to it, like a mask or a helmet. Powered armor would most likely boost a mages capability especially defense, maneuverability, and survival. I do think power armor would be cool though:

Spoiler for Yes I can Say 'Mecha Musume' :
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Old 2008-09-04, 13:47   Link #1472
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
There's also the question of whether barrier jackets can provide and maintain an artificial atmosphere for space combat mages. Personally I think if you're going to have Mages in Space, they're going to need some powered armor to maintain a life support system or at least boost power to the barrier jacket's environmental hazard defense fields (can you say "mecha musume"? ).

Also the TSA's big thing is that none of their weapons can be used by people who aren't trained mages; I think snubfighters that non-mages can use would qualify as mass-based weapons, even if they were powered by artificial linker cores or something of the like.
i can say Space bikini
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Old 2008-09-04, 19:41   Link #1473
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I'll add to Space Bikinis with Hazardous Environment Fanservice and hunks in Gundam armor that fly variable fighters carrying giant devices.
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Old 2008-09-05, 00:36   Link #1474
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You know, Mecha Musume is canonical, at least in Macross Frontier. Now all we need is for Klan to ditch the suit and use a bikini....
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Old 2008-09-10, 04:20   Link #1475
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
(Reminds myself to go hear SSX...)

Preliminary SoD conclusions:

Bounce off w/ Strada hypothesis: Plausible. He is certainly able to deflect projectiles coming below a certain speed and Strada is presumably tough enough to block bullets if it can be placed in the way. However, his speed of movement, even with Flash move is limited. This leads to two possible conclusions.

1) The bullet speed becomes constrained by his canonically visualized ability to move (put simply, the assumed speed of the bullet is reduced). To some extent increased assumed distance of firing correlates to increased speed. But it is not very likely he can spot something as small as a bullet flying towards him even at a relatively low speed (unless it is very large, which will correspond to a low muzzle velocity to avoid creating recoil forces too great for a human...), so overall this is not a high probability.
2) He's actually following the muzzle, blocking the place through which the bullet will travel if it was fired at a particular moment. This will require extremely high skill level, even in an anime, but at least it is physically possible. His training with using Flash Move will probably help him have this kind of reflex. But this will be more useful at short ranges where he can accurately see the muzzle's movements than at long, when even the gunman himself can't determine exactly which body part he's aiming at.
Blocking bullets, as impossible as it may be realistically, is a common skill in anime for wielders of melee weaponry.

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Barrier Jacket hypothesis: Barring the fact that those things can be torn apart by windblast and whips , actually also possible if he catches it on the coat. If we assume the coat doesn't break almost immediately, it is at a distance from the body which helps make up for its softness and may provide a large total amount of delta-V. Even if the bullet then reaches the inner jacket, its velocity will be reduced and so the thinness (and softness) of the jacket won't matter as much. The big question in this one is whether those jackets have the requisite toughness.
I've actually found a perfect example of what I believe Barrier Jacket's would work like recently. It may not be Nanoha, and it may not explain how, but its always nice to have a visual:

Spoiler:


That's how I believe Barrier Jackets work as well. It generates a Barrier and Field surrounding the body that can halt most conventional attacks. In fact, the generating part is already canon.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Silently-raised Barrier Hypothesis: They've actually been done before (Ep 7 A's, and then IMHO every time the mage hits a wall at high speed...) and it is even easier not to mention it in a sound-only media, and have the fewest technical problems. The only problem is with every silently-raised barrier, that you can't observe it being raised, so it is deduced rather than observed.
Hmm, also possible, though that means Barriers can be silently cast when moving at high-speeds to intercept projectiles as fast as bullets.

Though in regards to the hitting the wall, I rather use Barrier Jackets. Auto Barriers seem to be a common safety feature, used for things like riding motorbikes as well.
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Old 2008-09-10, 05:10   Link #1476
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I've actually found a perfect example of what I believe Barrier Jacket's would work like recently. It may not be Nanoha, and it may not explain how, but its always nice to have a visual:

Spoiler:


That's how I believe Barrier Jackets work as well. It generates a Barrier and Field surrounding the body that can halt most conventional attacks. In fact, the generating part is already canon.
Another similar visual effects is also found on shields in (Going out-of-anime here) Mass Effect. The visual effect in the vid is actually very similar to how the in-game shields reflects/stop bullets or energy weapons.

Just for..future reference >_>
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Old 2008-09-10, 05:30   Link #1477
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Blocking bullets, as impossible as it may be realistically, is a common skill in anime for wielders of melee weaponry.
Well, as far as the anime writers are concerned "Block Bullets" is a kind of checkbox. But a good SoDer does not allow himself to be trapped by "Class", such as "Bullets = Fast" or "Lasers = Primitive; Phasers = Advanced", he sees what they do, and a "bullet" that can't get past a slow mover is most likely a very slow projectile - authors can't just check the box and excuse themselves of entire seasons of drawing slow characters.

Of course, if they actually gave us a way to clock the bullet... but your source is Sound only...

Quote:
That's how I believe Barrier Jackets work as well. It generates a Barrier and Field surrounding the body that can halt most conventional attacks. In fact, the generating part is already canon.
Well, but we never see the field, or at such extension. The one time where that clearly (seemed) to happened they said it was Active Defense... halting most conventional attacks ... is windblast stronger than most conventional attacks?

Quote:
Hmm, also possible, though that means Barriers can be silently cast when moving at high-speeds to intercept projectiles as fast as bullets.
Could also be a preset there, but that depends on the specifics. Besides, the ability to activate a shield fast was pretty much given away when I decided they were the things that save people flying into walls.

Remember the things that save you in impacts - distance and time.
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Old 2008-09-10, 05:53   Link #1478
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Well, as far as the anime writers are concerned "Block Bullets" is a kind of checkbox. But a good SoDer does not allow himself to be trapped by "Class", such as "Bullets = Fast" or "Lasers = Primitive; Phasers = Advanced", he sees what they do, and a "bullet" that can't get past a slow mover is most likely a very slow projectile - authors can't just check the box and excuse themselves of entire seasons of drawing slow characters.
If what we've heard about the movie is right, they're about to do so.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Of course, if they actually gave us a way to clock the bullet... but your source is Sound only...
Clocking an animation will produce inacurate measurments anyway. An animator isn't going to be bothered be details like 'If I want to accurately portray the speed of a bullet, I need to animate X amount of frames' animators rely more on the rule of cool then realism in that department.

By the way, I have a question that has bothered me for a while, you seem to wave around SoD as some sort of flag of logic, if you'll pardon my wording, that is used for objective reasoning. And yet, SoD is 100% subjective, as the SoD limits of one person may be a lot lower then the next.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Well, but we never see the field, or at such extension.
Ah, my mistake, I meant that it worked that way in that it is a field that blocks attacks, and yet doesn't have any limits in grabbing objects. As I recall, this was one of the biggest problems with this.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The one time where that clearly (seemed) to happened they said it was Active Defense... halting most conventional attacks ... is windblast stronger than most conventional attacks?
If you mean the puff of wind from the bug, that scene doesn't make sense anyway. When flying they recieve a lot more air presure and yet their Jackets stay in one piece. And we already have more evidence that Auto Barriers do protect against heavy impacts then that they don't. Heck, Teana blatantly says she will be using hear Auto Barrier for protection while driving her bike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Could also be a preset there, but that depends on the specifics. Besides, the ability to activate a shield fast was pretty much given away when I decided they were the things that save people flying into walls.
You did? Oh, I remember you firmly oposing that once when I suggested fast activating Barriers could be used against bullets... though that was a long time ago.

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Remember the things that save you in impacts - distance and time.
That doesn't seem to bother any of the castmembers that much though. They pretty much against or even through concrete with zero distance between them and the concrete when they hit.
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Old 2008-09-10, 07:09   Link #1479
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If what we've heard about the movie is right, they're about to do so.
By "so", do you mean they'll move them appreciably faster? I'll believe it when I see it...

Quote:
Clocking an animation will produce inacurate measurments anyway. An animator isn't going to be bothered be details like 'If I want to accurately portray the speed of a bullet, I need to animate X amount of frames' animators rely more on the rule of cool then realism in that department.
Animators are subject to the laws of unintended consequences. For example, if they drew a character ugly, would it matter the least bit to the audience that they intended for him to be handsome? Obviously not. It may be unintended but...

Quote:
By the way, I have a question that has bothered me for a while, you seem to wave around SoD as some sort of flag of logic, if you'll pardon my wording, that is used for objective reasoning. And yet, SoD is 100% subjective, as the SoD limits of one person may be a lot lower then the next.
When suspension of disbelief is applied to analysis, the disbelief that is being suspended is that this is all fiction. In other words, we assume everything we see are sources not of a fictional, but of a real event. In stripping the ability to appeal to author's intent (which is almost always used only when the evidence turns unfavorably) you leave a lot less room for subjective interpretation. Instead, we'll analyze it scientifically, and this provides the opportunity for one single answer to the problem.

I can measure a scene and clock it at say 70m/s, and you, using the same scene, should get about the same result. If we don't at least one of us screwed up the clocking procedure. Now, SoD means we take this as data, and so we can't nullify it by claiming some Law of Animation. So we can, at least in principle, agree on this by using this method. Of course, reality isn't quite that pretty, but you get the idea.

Quote:
If you mean the puff of wind from the bug, that scene doesn't make sense anyway. When flying they recieve a lot more air presure and yet their Jackets stay in one piece. And we already have more evidence that Auto Barriers do protect against heavy impacts then that they don't. Heck, Teana blatantly says she will be using hear Auto Barrier for protection while driving her bike.
Probably a matter of vortexes. As for Auto Barriers, again, you hear a word, and you immediately think it has no limits. Without quantification, even a cotton shirt qualifies as protection. Quantification of a quality is the true determiner as to whether it'll fulfill its function in a particular scenario.

Quote:
That doesn't seem to bother any of the castmembers that much though. They pretty much against or even through concrete with zero distance between them and the concrete when they hit.
See answers in all previous debates. In fact, we saw how limited the protection is.
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Old 2008-09-10, 09:21   Link #1480
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When suspension of disbelief is applied to analysis, the disbelief that is being suspended is that this is all fiction. In other words, we assume everything we see are sources not of a fictional, but of a real event. In stripping the ability to appeal to author's intent (which is almost always used only when the evidence turns unfavorably) you leave a lot less room for subjective interpretation. Instead, we'll analyze it scientifically, and this provides the opportunity for one single answer to the problem.
In other words, you take all the fun out of talking about the series by demanding that everyone do so in scientific terms. Thanks but I'll pass on that one.

Quote:
Probably a matter of vortexes. As for Auto Barriers, again, you hear a word, and you immediately think it has no limits. Without quantification, even a cotton shirt qualifies as protection.
Cotton shirts can't be expected to provide any degree of protection in an auto accident, much less a motorcycle accident. Teana obviously expects her barrier to do its' job and protect her from serious injury, and her in-universe knowledge of the workings of barriers obviously exceeds our out-of-universe knowledge on the same subject; Tea's gone through combat school, where we, on the other hand, are trying to deduce the workings of a barrier by mere visual observation. I'll take Teana's word that the barrier will work over any viewer's insistence that it won't. Yours included, "Professor".

Quote:
See answers in all previous debates. In fact, we saw how limited the protection is.
I'd hardly call Strength of Plot to be "limited" by any stretch of the imagination.
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