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Old 2008-09-10, 12:53   Link #1481
Avatar_notADV
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Sigh...

It's asinine to think that you can't take animation quality into account. Be honest - the Strikers animation had severe problems in a few scenes with basic human anatomy, much less precise ranging. But we're not assuming that Teana can transform into some kind of MOK-KOS because of that. Even though we SAW IT, that sort of scene can be safely filtered out as "just bad animation".

Likewise, there's nothing in any Nanoha series that makes me think that the artists were composing their layouts with a calculator and a reference sheet. It's not sufficiently internally consistent for that.

It's good to attempt to tease information out of limited observations, but you can't transcend the problems of the media thereby - and one of the problems with Japanese animation is that it plays extraordinarily fast and loose with concepts of time and distance.
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Old 2008-09-10, 19:07   Link #1482
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It is a fundamental principle of anime, as with all primarily visual media, that information is visual. So unless you are telling me that the artists have no sense of perspective, when they for example, portray something as a dot in the sky, they are telling us it is far away, and by extension the distance can be measured.

SoD does recognize limitation of source. For all that, it will still not assume author's intent and dismiss scenes that don't happen to meet requirements.
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Old 2008-09-10, 19:31   Link #1483
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Right, but suspension of disbelief -does not operate with a calculator-. It doesn't count frames. It's merely "is the viewer of this scene inclined to accept that this is internally consistent with the rest of the show"?

And yes, suspension of disbelief is inherently tied up in the genre. For example, what about the staple of the magical girl genre, the transformation scene? In any kind of -ordinary- thinking, of course, sitting there having your clothing removed and redone for 90 seconds while the enemy is sitting there tapping his watch and fuming is silly. Are we supposed to believe that Vita is really going to sit there while Nanoha arms herself? In a word, -yes-, because -we are watching magical girl anime-. It's part of the trope. The show even has fun with the trope in that Nanoha can tell the transformation sequence to bugger off if she wants to... but they still do it a few times, because -that's the trope-.

So yes, in many ways, I'm specifically saying "as anime, it's quite likely that analyzing Nanoha for its scientific dimensions will fail, and largely miss the point." The show doesn't need to make sure that Vita-in-the-distance is three pixels tall rather than five in order to get people to believe "hey, Vita's far away". It doesn't need to have all attacks run in real-time (in fact, it pretty explicitly doesn't do that). Characters can pause and chat in places where it's quite implausible that they would pause, or at any rate they can say a line while swinging their weapon in such a way where in real life, the line would take much longer to say than the stroke. So long as Nanoha's not trying to declaim War and Peace in the middle of one of her incantations, we can believe that she can say a few words in there and it doesn't break up the pace of the action. So long as the characters' sizes are more or less constant relative to each other, we're not going to fume about exact positioning and angles of deflection and the like. And that's just taking the intentional stuff into effect - we're also prepared to see some scenes that are just "oops" because the budget wasn't that big.

Heck, suspension of disbelief is useful in non-scientific ways, too. We've discussed that Nanoha, by objective standards, is not that great of an officer, Hayate's worse, and the TSAB as a whole is less competent than the average third-world military. But in the context of the show, Nanoha is lauded as being really freaking good at her job as an officer (and not just at busting heads). It requires a suspension of disbelief to say "well, okay, Nanoha's skilled in the context of the show, but the writers are non-military fuggheads writing a war story".

But anime isn't film. You can't say "it's in the picture and thus represents a true image of what actually happened". Quite often, a scene will be redone (in the next episode or after a commercial break) and entirely different events will occur - character positioning will change, poses will be different, different dialogue might be spoken, what have you - but the viewer is meant to understand that the two scenes are in fact the same scene. And in the same vein, you can't count frames and put a protractor up to the screen and claim you've discovered the vital statistics of Nanoha attacks.
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Old 2008-09-11, 00:40   Link #1484
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Right, but suspension of disbelief -does not operate with a calculator-. It doesn't count frames. It's merely "is the viewer of this scene inclined to accept that this is internally consistent with the rest of the show"?
But in a greater sense, what you are doing is a bit of denial (see below for concrete example).

Quote:
And yes, suspension of disbelief is inherently tied up in the genre. For example, what about the staple of the magical girl genre, the transformation scene? In any kind of -ordinary- thinking, of course, sitting there having your clothing removed and redone for 90 seconds while the enemy is sitting there tapping his watch and fuming is silly. Are we supposed to believe that Vita is really going to sit there while Nanoha arms herself? In a word, -yes-, because -we are watching magical girl anime-. It's part of the trope. The show even has fun with the trope in that Nanoha can tell the transformation sequence to bugger off if she wants to... but they still do it a few times, because -that's the trope-.
Here, you have just refused to suspend disbelief, muttering "It can't be. It can't really have happened that way. Something else must have happened even though I don't know what it is."

Real SoD will have involved you going "Ahh, it might actually have happened that way ... in that universe ... this says something about the people there ..."

Quote:
So yes, in many ways, I'm specifically saying "as anime, it's quite likely that analyzing Nanoha for its scientific dimensions will fail, and largely miss the point." The show doesn't need to make sure that Vita-in-the-distance is three pixels tall rather than five in order to get people to believe "hey, Vita's far away".
Do you think there's a real difference in what is being portrayed when the animator makes Vita 240 pixels tall instead of 400 pixels, all else being equal? I bet you do. Presumably, 400 pixels means she's pretty close, and 240 pixels means she's not quite as close. You might even say she's close to being twice as far, but not quite.

But that's the same ratio as 3:5. So why does one count and the other doesn't.

Quote:
It doesn't need to have all attacks run in real-time (in fact, it pretty explicitly doesn't do that). Characters can pause and chat in places where it's quite implausible that they would pause, or at any rate they can say a line while swinging their weapon in such a way where in real life, the line would take much longer to say than the stroke. So long as Nanoha's not trying to declaim War and Peace in the middle of one of her incantations, we can believe that she can say a few words in there and it doesn't break up the pace of the action.
Again, you've refused to suspend disbelief here.

Quote:
Heck, suspension of disbelief is useful in non-scientific ways, too. We've discussed that Nanoha, by objective standards, is not that great of an officer, Hayate's worse, and the TSAB as a whole is less competent than the average third-world military. But in the context of the show, Nanoha is lauded as being really freaking good at her job as an officer (and not just at busting heads). It requires a suspension of disbelief to say "well, okay, Nanoha's skilled in the context of the show, but the writers are non-military fuggheads writing a war story".
You mean, you are shown A, but you don't believe it is A, based solely on your preconceptions that it must be B because they claim it is B (ignoring that their idea of B might really be completely different from yours)? I'll call that a failure to truly suspend disbelief.

Quote:
But anime isn't film. You can't say "it's in the picture and thus represents a true image of what actually happened".
Unlike the common stereotype, SoD does allow for the limitations of media. What it doesn't do is allow liberal claims of licence, generally all conveniently applied when the evidence as portrayed doesn't go your way.

Quote:
Quite often, a scene will be redone (in the next episode or after a commercial break) and entirely different events will occur - character positioning will change, poses will be different, different dialogue might be spoken, what have you - but the viewer is meant to understand that the two scenes are in fact the same scene. And in the same vein, you can't count frames and put a protractor up to the screen and claim you've discovered the vital statistics of Nanoha attacks.
Actually, in that case, we have an inconsistency. To resolve it, you should try and think of how you would have done so, if you were believing it all represented real events.
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Old 2008-09-11, 01:19   Link #1485
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Do you think there's a real difference in what is being portrayed when the animator makes Vita 240 pixels tall instead of 400 pixels, all else being equal? I bet you do. Presumably, 400 pixels means she's pretty close, and 240 pixels means she's not quite as close. You might even say she's close to being twice as far, but not quite.
Actually the most reasonable explanation for this size discrepancy is that Vita is changing sizes, not distances. She just grows and shrinks.

Similarly, I have calculated that all Nanoha projectile attacks have a range of several inches and velocities of at best a few inches per second based on how far and fast they moved across my screen.

Quote:
Unlike the common stereotype, SoD does allow for the limitations of media. What it doesn't do is allow liberal claims of licence, generally all conveniently applied when the evidence as portrayed doesn't go your way.
Pray tell, what is the objective method by which you draw the line between those? They're the same damn thing.
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Old 2008-09-11, 01:35   Link #1486
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Ark, you miss the point in amazing and flagrant fashion.

I'm -not- failing to suspend disbelief on those points. I enjoy the show! I have no problem with suspending disbelief. I'm merely pointing out that these are various things for which I am suspending disbelief. I'm totally okay with suspending disbelief in these cases.

When you insist on a rationalization for these things, that's a failure to suspend disbelief. Am I trying to find a reason that Vita, not exactly the most patient lil' Belkan ever to exist, would sit around while Nanoha got changed? Nope. I don't demand that it be explained comprehensively. I'm suspending my disbelief, which would normally have Vita smile and pound the hell out of a defenseless and unclothed Nanoha or something similar. I don't need to form some sort of reason why in bizarro-Nanoha world, people don't take advantage of surprise attacks during transformation sequences. I just shrug, say "lol, magical girl shows", and continue to enjoy the show.

Same diff for a lot of the fight scene stuff. Not everything -does- act consistently, some characters have plot armor, some don't, some things don't act perfectly consistently. You can have some fun trying to rationalize them, but at the end of the day, you shrug and say "lol, magical girl anime" and keep watching.

Same thing with the Nanoha-in-the-military issues. I've tapped out more than one post trying to figure out the weird thought processes in the TSAB, as a fun exercise, but only for the contexts of those discussions. Objectively, I know that there's no way to reconcile Nanoha's behavior with Nanoha's reputation with what I know about military affairs, so I shrug, say "lol, magical girl anime", and keep watching. ;p
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Old 2008-09-11, 02:31   Link #1487
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
...I'm suspending my disbelief, which would normally have Vita smile and pound the hell out of a defenseless and unclothed Nanoha or something similar...
When I saw that I started thinking dirty... I must visit 4chan too much...

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I don't need to form some sort of reason why in bizarro-Nanoha world, people don't take advantage of surprise attacks during transformation sequences. I just shrug, say "lol, magical girl shows", and continue to enjoy the show.

Same diff for a lot of the fight scene stuff. Not everything -does- act consistently, some characters have plot armor, some don't, some things don't act perfectly consistently. You can have some fun trying to rationalize them, but at the end of the day, you shrug and say "lol, magical girl anime" and keep watching.
This isn't just Nanoha per anime physics.

Anyway when I watch a show (such as Nanoha), I saw it's best to just sit back and enjoy it... and not think too much about the physics involved, as per the above link.
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Old 2008-09-11, 03:31   Link #1488
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By "so", do you mean they'll move them appreciably faster? I'll believe it when I see it...
That's what the article said, 'fast paced aerial battles to really show what mages are capable of' or something along those lines. The fact that they're putting emphasis on it certainly has me hopeful.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Animators are subject to the laws of unintended consequences. For example, if they drew a character ugly, would it matter the least bit to the audience that they intended for him to be handsome? Obviously not. It may be unintended but...
Which has zero to do with my point: Animators aren't going to sit down and do accurate measurements unless the goal for the animation is to give a realistic representation. For anime, the goal is to entertain, so the first thought isn't 'how do I make this as scientifically accurate as possible?' but 'how do I make this as entertaining as possible?'

For example, an animator is animating a gunfight. The hero is pinned and there are bullets flying all around him. What does the animator do? Well, he might decide to show the bullets flying around the hero, to emphasize that the hero is in danger and there are bullets flying all around him. In doing this he puts the hero in a bigger danger, because the audience can now see just how close the bullets are flying past his body. However, this also slows down the bullets to a point where they can be clocked, and clocking them will reveal that they are moving way to slow to be real bullets. Does this change that it still is a bullet? No, but trying to clock it doesn't yield the same scientific results. Why? Because the animator chose to ignore physics and instead made the scene look cool.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
When suspension of disbelief is applied to analysis, the disbelief that is being suspended is that this is all fiction. In other words, we assume everything we see are sources not of a fictional, but of a real event. In stripping the ability to appeal to author's intent (which is almost always used only when the evidence turns unfavorably) you leave a lot less room for subjective interpretation. Instead, we'll analyze it scientifically, and this provides the opportunity for one single answer to the problem.

I can measure a scene and clock it at say 70m/s, and you, using the same scene, should get about the same result. If we don't at least one of us screwed up the clocking procedure. Now, SoD means we take this as data, and so we can't nullify it by claiming some Law of Animation. So we can, at least in principle, agree on this by using this method. Of course, reality isn't quite that pretty, but you get the idea.
...

Wait, is that the idea you have of SoD? Oh... man... that explains a lot. Ark, by stripping away the abillity to appeal to author's intent and try to explain everything scientifically rather then use the terms the author provides us, in other words, by refusing to believe the terminology of the source, you already fail to suspend disbelief.

Suspension of Disbelief is for example simply accepting that spaceships make awesome sounds in space, or that lasers sound really awesome (the passage of light tends to be rather quiet) that is suspension of disbelief.

Applying Suspension of Disbelief to analysis can't possibly mean you strip away any and all idea that this is fiction, in doing so you'd create a major case of contradictio in termus. Applying Suspension of Disbelief to analysis means you explain what is asked using the terminology of the source. To stay on the subject at hand, if someone asks 'how come the cast can survive getting thrown through buildings?' the SoD analysis answer would be 'because they are wearing Barrier Jackets.' Does it make sense according to physics? No. Why do we provide the answer? Because it is the answer the source material gives us.

That is SoD analysis, what you are doing is completely refusing to will SoD and instead explain everything scientifically.

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Probably a matter of vortexes. As for Auto Barriers, again, you hear a word, and you immediately think it has no limits. Without quantification, even a cotton shirt qualifies as protection. Quantification of a quality is the true determiner as to whether it'll fulfill its function in a particular scenario.
As Comar said, Teana obviously thought her Auto Barrier would keep her safe. I don't know if you've ever seen a motor accident, but without a motor suit, the results are often worse then a car accident. A cotton shirt will not protect you.
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Old 2008-09-11, 05:57   Link #1489
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
That's what the article said, 'fast paced aerial battles to really show what mages are capable of' or something along those lines. The fact that they're putting emphasis on it certainly has me hopeful.
1) I'll believe it when I see it. They were probably pretty sure they were portraying them as pretty fast all along too...
2) Why do you even care? If you believe that what the animator draws is based on whatever is cool to them, and has no relevance to the MGLN reality, then who cares whether they are going to draw them fast or slow?

Quote:
Which has zero to do with my point: Animators aren't going to sit down and do accurate measurements unless the goal for the animation is to give a realistic representation. For anime, the goal is to entertain, so the first thought isn't 'how do I make this as scientifically accurate as possible?' but 'how do I make this as entertaining as possible?'
They do, however, make a decision on how many pixels to draw a character as. As they do so, a decision IS being made, with real consequences to the world. A careless decision is still a decision.

Quote:
For example, an animator is animating a gunfight. The hero is pinned and there are bullets flying all around him. What does the animator do? Well, he might decide to show the bullets flying around the hero, to emphasize that the hero is in danger and there are bullets flying all around him. In doing this he puts the hero in a bigger danger, because the audience can now see just how close the bullets are flying past his body. However, this also slows down the bullets to a point where they can be clocked, and clocking them will reveal that they are moving way to slow to be real bullets. Does this change that it still is a bullet? No, but trying to clock it doesn't yield the same scientific results. Why? Because the animator chose to ignore physics and instead made the scene look cool.
I'll assume in your scene, animator used none of the Deliberate Slow-Down cues. We'll also assume they weren't Terran bullets.

In which case, you clearly failed to suspend disbelief. You refused to believe the visuals, simply because the depicted projectiles failed to conform with your schema of bullets!

Quote:
To stay on the subject at hand, if someone asks 'how come the cast can survive getting thrown through buildings?' the SoD analysis answer would be 'because they are wearing Barrier Jackets.' Does it make sense according to physics? No. Why do we provide the answer? Because it is the answer the source material gives us.
What "analysis" has even taken place? You just accepted a vague promise of "protection" without quantification!

What I see is a Suspension of Rational Thought in face of Disbelief.

Further, the source material clearly depicts a world where physics do apply.

Quote:
As Comar said, Teana obviously thought her Auto Barrier would keep her safe. I don't know if you've ever seen a motor accident, but without a motor suit, the results are often worse then a car accident. A cotton shirt will not protect you.
If the collision is at say 3-5km/h relative, it is quite likely the shirt will provide some protection.

That aside, the point is the worthlessness of any qualitative statement with quantification of its magnitude.

The AB will keep her safe. Against what? 10km/h relative speed? 20km/h? 200km/h? Mach 20?
What about angle of impact? Will it make a Is there any difference if she hits grass instead of concrete? How much? If she flies into a jagged rock, will that make a difference?

And how safe? Complete noninjury? Mild ones you can walk away from? Broken bones? Just not quite dead?

Do you see the need for quantification?
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Old 2008-09-11, 06:12   Link #1490
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No I don't. All I see is the author saying Yes to all questions, depending on the plot.
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Old 2008-09-11, 06:31   Link #1491
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
They do, however, make a decision on how many pixels to draw a character as. As they do so, a decision IS being made, with real consequences to the world. A careless decision is still a decision.
And thus, not a decision upon which accurate measurements can be made.

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I'll assume in your scene, animator used none of the Deliberate Slow-Down cues. We'll also assume they weren't Terran bullets.

In which case, you clearly failed to suspend disbelief. You refused to believe the visuals, simply because the depicted projectiles failed to conform with your schema of bullets!
Now, you see, here is the problem: I am not the one that refuses to believe the visuals. I watch this scene and go 'wow, that guy is certainly under a lot of fire' I don't start to rationalize that the speed of the bullets can't possibly be realistically possible.

I suspend my disbelief.

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What "analysis" has even taken place? You just accepted a vague promise of "protection" without quantification!
Yes. And you know why? Because that's what Suspension of Disbelief is. Accepting things without having them be mathmetically and scientifically accurate.

As for the analysis that has taken place, it goes something along the lines of this:

Observation:
Member of the cast gets smashed through wall.

Query: How did the member of the cast survive that?

Analysis:
Member of the cast is wearing a Barrier Jacket, a magical form of armor. Source material explains that Barrier Jackets generate Barriers and Fields which provide protection.

Conclusion: Barrier Jacket protected member of the cast.

Now, the difference between scientific analysis, which is what you're doing, and SoD analysis is that once you found out what kept the member of the cast safe, you don't start to wonder how it managed to do so in the face of physics. "A magical clothing that generates magical barriers? Okay, thanks for explaining." That's what SoD analysis is.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
What I see is a Suspension of Rational Thought in face of Disbelief.
That is what SoD is after all. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to watch any Sci-Fi series without having our rational thought going "But wait a minute, there is no sound in space!"

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Further, the source material clearly depicts a world where physics do apply.
And yet defies them at the same time. As I said before, when it comes to anime, physics take a backseat. They only apply when it sounds cool for them to apply.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
If the collision is at say 3-5km/h relative, it is quite likely the shirt will provide some protection.

That aside, the point is the worthlessness of any qualitative statement with quantification of its magnitude.

The AB will keep her safe. Against what? 10km/h relative speed? 20km/h? 200km/h? Mach 20?
What about angle of impact? Will it make a Is there any difference if she hits grass instead of concrete? How much? If she flies into a jagged rock, will that make a difference?

And how safe? Complete noninjury? Mild ones you can walk away from? Broken bones? Just not quite dead?

Do you see the need for quantification?
Kha answered this better then I could.
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Old 2008-09-11, 07:21   Link #1492
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And thus, not a decision upon which accurate measurements can be made.
And why not? He has made the decision, and it has consequences. (Besides, you really have no clue he did not take great care in it).

Quote:
Now, you see, here is the problem: I am not the one that refuses to believe the visuals. I watch this scene and go 'wow, that guy is certainly under a lot of fire' I don't start to rationalize that the speed of the bullets can't possibly be realistically possible.
SoD is about accepting observations, or at least to the maximum feasible extent.

Then why do you only accept that the Guy is certainly under a lot of fire, but not what the scene actually showed, which is that the guy is under a lot of fire from slow-moving projectiles? Why Do You Pretend the Last Detail Did Not Exist?

Quote:
I suspend my disbelief.
No you didn't. See above.

Quote:
Yes. And you know why? Because that's what Suspension of Disbelief is. Accepting things without having them be mathmetically and scientifically accurate.
Yes, it is about accepting Observations.

Quote:
As for the analysis that has taken place, it goes something along the lines of this:

Observation:
Member of the cast gets smashed through wall.
Agreed here, except you missed out a whole of of observations. A more complete version (but still really quite incomplete) of the Observation paragraph might go: In a world where there is magic but where most physical laws show no sign of change, a member of the cast flies at such and such a speed, smashing through a wall probably made of Material X and of approximately Ymm thick. The member manages to get to her feet with such and such injuries.

Quote:
Query: How did the member of the cast survive that?
Despite your protestations below, the query itself already reveals a subconscious assumption that most laws of physics are still in effect. Otherwise, the fact that a member of the cast survived the event cannot be identified to be in any way worthy of questioning.

Quote:
Analysis: Member of the cast is wearing a Barrier Jacket, a magical form of armor. Source material explains that Barrier Jackets generate Barriers and Fields which provide protection.
Actually, the first part is an Observation, so add this to Observation: Cast Member is wearing some clothing that was called a "Barrier Jacket". According to the cast members, it has an unquantified defensive capability...

According to available text sources, which look like they are translated from a person in the universe, Barrier Jackets generate Barriers and Fields that provide an unquantified level of protection.

Quote:
Conclusion: Barrier Jacket protected member of the cast.
Not so fast. Based on the above, it is probably justifiable to make an initial Hypothesis with the above. Immediately, the hypothesis runs into problems with physics, which are observed to be at least mostly in effect. Then we have observations that they cannot protect against a lower force.

Conclusion: Barrier Jacket is almost certainly not what protected Cast Member.

Quote:
Now, the difference between scientific analysis, which is what you're doing, and SoD analysis is that once you found out what kept the member of the cast safe, you don't start to wonder how it managed to do so in the face of physics. "A magical clothing that generates magical barriers? Okay, thanks for explaining." That's what SoD analysis is.
Actually, that's not analysis at all. You conveniently forgot all other alternatives (obviously, an alternative that violates fewer physical principles will have a huge advantage) and even ignored Observations inconvenient to you. You didn't even try to rationalize them away.

Quote:
That is what SoD is after all. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to watch any Sci-Fi series without having our rational thought going "But wait a minute, there is no sound in space!"
Here's what you do. You accept that there seems to be sound in space, and you look for possible explanations, not all of which actually lead to sound being actually in space.

Quote:
And yet defies them at the same time. As I said before, when it comes to anime, physics take a backseat. They only apply when it sounds cool for them to apply.
Actually, whether from a scientific SoD or literary perspective, anime can only deviate from physical laws in a limited fashion. Scientifically, the existence of humans and planets like ours already drives many stakes to anchor the laws. The new laws added can only be on the edge.

In a literary, author's intent sense, no matter how hard the guy tries, he's human, raised in a world with our laws. His ability to imagine something vastly different is sorely limited. For example, he can mumble about ten dimensional space, but as he draws it or describes it, it'll start looking a lot like our 3-dimensional, because it is simply impossible for him to really imagine what it is like in ten-dimensional space.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-09-11 at 07:56.
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Old 2008-09-11, 07:37   Link #1493
Keroko
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Then why do you only accept that the Guy is certainly under a lot of fire, but not what the scene actually showed, which is that the guy is under a lot of fire from slow-moving projectiles? Why Do You Pretend the Last Detail Did Not Exist?
I'll pick out the rest later, but I'll start with this. Ark, it has become quite clear to me that you have no idea what Suspension of Disbelief really is. Suspension of Disbelief refers to the willingness of a person to accept as true the premises of a work of fiction, even if they are fantastic or impossible. It also refers to the willingness of the audience to overlook the limitations of a medium, so that these do not interfere with the acceptance of those premises.

In this case that means accepting that the bullets are supposed to be moving at the speeds of normal bullets, even if they don't stand up to calculations. Just look at the words: Suspension of Disbelief. I suspend my disbelief that bullets aren't supposed to move that slow.

Why do I pretend the last detail did not exist? Because, Ark, that is what Suspension of Disbelief is.
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Old 2008-09-11, 08:06   Link #1494
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I'll pick out the rest later, but I'll start with this. Ark, it has become quite clear to me that you have no idea what Suspension of Disbelief really is. Suspension of Disbelief refers to the willingness of a person to accept as true the premises of a work of fiction, even if they are fantastic or impossible.
Entirely agree. But how can we determine the premises of a work of fiction? By observation and taking into account all information, not just those that are convenient. That bullets move at 100m/s may well be one of the detailed premises of that work of fiction. Maybe Hero's ability to block the bullets is only there because of the fact that "bullets" in that universe move at 100m/s instead of 300m/s+. That bullets move at only 100m/s is a fantastic thought, but isn't SoD about choking it down and working with it anyway?

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It also refers to the willingness of the audience to overlook the limitations of a medium, so that these do not interfere with the acceptance of those premises.
Oh, and how do you know that, in this example, that bullets move slow is not a premise.

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In this case that means accepting that the bullets are supposed to be moving at the speeds of normal bullets, even if they don't stand up to calculations. Just look at the words: Suspension of Disbelief. I suspend my disbelief that bullets aren't supposed to move that slow.

Why do I pretend the last detail did not exist? Because, Ark, that is what Suspension of Disbelief is.
Actually, what you suspended was your own observation. You allowed your own prejudices to block out what you observed.

This case is actually more asinine than normal because we know there are a number of ways that Slow-Mode is explicitly portrayed.
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Old 2008-09-11, 08:13   Link #1495
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The Dimensional Fleet Zipang: when ASROC is fired in Episode 2, when Harpoon is fired in Episode 13 and when Sea Sparrows are fired in Episode 14, all missiles are shown exiting their VLS and launch tubes at slower speeds than real life. If they were really launched at those speeds, they would stall and crash back on the ship. How do you explain that?

Macross Frontier, Episode 14. Alto flies in space. And his VF-25 has vapor trails.

Now, when we saw vapor trails in Episode 13, that was acceptable, because vapour trails do form on aircraft going at high speed, particularly at high altitude. However, these vapour trails were in space and there was nothing at all to explain how that happened.

Also, the VF-25 uses a gatling gunpod that fires kinetic slugs; can you explain to me why the tracers are blue, what could cause blue tracers, and whether tracers are even possible in the vacuum of space.

Incidentally, ark hasn't replied to comar. Comar unworthy of your attention, perhaps? </jk> Probably busy with work and stuff, weren't you...(EDIT: lol ninjapost, nvm)

Actually this post has little purpose as relates to Nanoha, I just want to see how SoD applies to anime other than Nanoha. Mind you people who watch Macross Frontier tend to turn their minds and analysis off because Macross is a series that runs on explosions, power of music, Rule of Cool, and awesome.

As for suspension of disbelief in a game context: if you do not suspend disbelief, you will be unable to accept the Blackhawk that picks up the SAS team at the end of Mission 1, Chapter 1, of Call of Duty 4, which is flown by an american-sounding pilot, is painted in USAF colors, carries RAF markings, and the pilots are wearing Russian Spetsnaz uniforms and hats.
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Old 2008-09-11, 08:20   Link #1496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
In other words, you take all the fun out of talking about the series by demanding that everyone do so in scientific terms. Thanks but I'll pass on that one.
Start by explaining why Scientific = Not Fun.

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Cotton shirts can't be expected to provide any degree of protection in an auto accident, much less a motorcycle accident.
My point obviously blows over your head.

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Teana obviously expects her barrier to do its' job and protect her from serious injury, and her in-universe knowledge of the workings of barriers obviously exceeds our out-of-universe knowledge on the same subject; Tea's gone through combat school, where we, on the other hand, are trying to deduce the workings of a barrier by mere visual observation. I'll take Teana's word that the barrier will work over any viewer's insistence that it won't. Yours included, "Professor".
1) Tea has been through a 3 month boot camp, not a course in shield engineering. And remember, all their officers' courses didn't manage to make them better tacticians than us. Are you sure you want to place such faith in their technical education.
2) I have every confidence the barrier will activate. However, Teana never mentioned how effective it was going to be, or its limits. See my answer to Keroko - without quantification, a quality only statement has no references.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
The Dimensional Fleet Zipang: when ASROC is fired in Episode 2, when Harpoon is fired in Episode 13 and when Sea Sparrows are fired in Episode 14, all missiles are shown exiting their VLS and launch tubes at slower speeds than real life. If they were really launched at those speeds, they would stall and crash back on the ship. How do you explain that?
Those are real-life weapons, so their technotactical characteristics are much more likely to be fixed (unlike an alien weapon). There was no VTL, so a time slowdown is possible.

Quote:
Macross Frontier, Episode 14. Alto flies in space. And his VF-25 has vapor trails.

Now, when we saw vapor trails in Episode 13, that was acceptable, because vapour trails do form on aircraft going at high speed, particularly at high altitude. However, these vapour trails were in space and there was nothing at all to explain how that happened.
Have you considered the possibility I hadn't watched Macross Frontier? Anyway, without having looked at any details (details are very important in SoD analysis; often a small detail is what makes things most clear), it is possible that what you are seeing is some kind of exhaust from the sides of the plane (expendable coolant, perhaps?)

Quote:
Also, the VF-25 uses a gatling gunpod that fires kinetic slugs; can you explain to me why the tracers are blue, what could cause blue tracers, and whether tracers are even possible in the vacuum of space.
In theory, if the oxidant is mixed with the pyrotechnic chemicals, it might be possible to create the glow without external oxygen. Obviously, there is a chemical that we hadn't identified or at least is not in common use in terran tracers. As to why the heck they want to use blue tracers at all, that's a psychological question, but the Soviets used green so I guess blue ain't so bad...

Quote:
Actually this post has little purpose as relates to Nanoha, I just want to see how SoD applies to anime other than Nanoha. Mind you people who watch Macross Frontier tend to turn their minds and analysis off because Macross is a series that runs on explosions, power of music, Rule of Cool, and awesome.
SoD analysis is a methodology. Just remember: Assume that real events are being depicted. That generally guides you along the right path. In particular, if you assume real events are depicted, you won't feel so inclined to just throw the Laws of Physics out the window at every turn.

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As for suspension of disbelief in a game context: if you do not suspend disbelief, you will be unable to accept the Blackhawk that picks up the SAS team at the end of Mission 1, Chapter 1, of Call of Duty 4, which is flown by an american-sounding pilot, is painted in USAF colors, carries RAF markings, and the pilots are wearing Russian Spetsnaz uniforms and hats.
LOL. Well, then maybe that just happens to be what they are doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
When you insist on a rationalization for these things, that's a failure to suspend disbelief.
Why is that. If anything, I am suspending belief better than you, because you obviously don't think there might be a reasonable answer to this, while I'm trying.

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Am I trying to find a reason that Vita, not exactly the most patient lil' Belkan ever to exist, would sit around while Nanoha got changed? Nope. I don't demand that it be explained comprehensively. I'm suspending my disbelief, which would normally have Vita smile and pound the hell out of a defenseless and unclothed Nanoha or something similar.
Frankly, Vita's aggressiveness is over-rated. She's easily irritated, true, but there were times when she demonstrated more judgment and prudence than Signum. For example, she decided to try and retreat in Ep7 A's and concentrate mass against Fate rather than engage in a undecided battle and lose time and energy. Compare that to Signum, who, instead of taking a small amount of time to systematically eliminating the barrier mages and thus securing a free path or replacing it with their own barrier, decided to charge in. Only Graham's machinations allowed them to escape that one

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I don't need to form some sort of reason why in bizarro-Nanoha world, people don't take advantage of surprise attacks during transformation sequences. I just shrug, say "lol, magical girl shows", and continue to enjoy the show.
Don't be so sure. Remember how much our White Devil loves back attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
Pray tell, what is the objective method by which you draw the line between those? They're the same damn thing.
Oh, drawing the line right is one of the arts of SoD analysis. But just because it is hard doesn't mean one shouldn't make an effort.

Keroko gives a good example of what's a definite fail with his Bullet example. Note how he just pretends the bullet's velocity was never on the screen. Of course it was. But he insists in his opinion it isn't the author's intent, and that's that for a literary type. You can see how convenient it is to invalidate anything that does not meet your desires that way.

A SoDer does not have that freedom. No matter what, he must somehow deal with the fact that the scene showed this. If he invalidates it, he must have very good reasons (contradiction versus a lot of other footage, for example). Even then, it'll be a hole in his theory and he knows it. This kind of discipline helps objectivity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivio Testarossa View Post
Anyway when I watch a show (such as Nanoha), I saw it's best to just sit back and enjoy it... and not think too much about the physics involved, as per the above link.
I'll actually agree here, and I do watch a lot of anime this way. I chase down the Friday episodes of Strike Witches and Zettai Karen Children, as well as H-games ... etc, in a similar fashion.

However, these are different in that I don't discuss them. I believe that a casual attitude to making your mental model of worlds is OK ... unless you start to extrapolate. If you discuss things like "So how far can the protagonist in Anime X shoot" or write FanFic on Anime Y, you must make an effort to make an accurate mental model of what's going on. And that's where all the Analysis comes in.

If nothing else, it'll help you greatly when someone challenges your answer. Let's face it, most FanFic writers won't like being told that their depiction of Canon Character X has no resemblance to his real personality, or maybe that the combat depicted had no resemblance to how combat is handled in the series. How to avoid such problems, or at least to change the parameters from a position of knowledge? Analysis. Disciplined SoD analysis - eat the veggies too.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-09-11 at 09:28. Reason: Addition of Kikaifan answer
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Old 2008-09-11, 12:02   Link #1497
Evangelion Xgouki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I'll pick out the rest later, but I'll start with this. Ark, it has become quite clear to me that you have no idea what Suspension of Disbelief really is. Suspension of Disbelief refers to the willingness of a person to accept as true the premises of a work of fiction, even if they are fantastic or impossible. It also refers to the willingness of the audience to overlook the limitations of a medium, so that these do not interfere with the acceptance of those premises.

In this case that means accepting that the bullets are supposed to be moving at the speeds of normal bullets, even if they don't stand up to calculations. Just look at the words: Suspension of Disbelief. I suspend my disbelief that bullets aren't supposed to move that slow.

Why do I pretend the last detail did not exist? Because, Ark, that is what Suspension of Disbelief is.
Things do not always appear as they seem. Even things we actually SEE in real life with our own eyes are not always what they seem like optical illusions. Even live-action movies need to be taken in stride. Take films like Star Wars or a good chunk of films where the main characters come under fire from a large enemy force. It is shown that, off all the continuous fire sent down on your heroes regardless of small-arms fire to explosive, that they no not get hit at all or even a scratch . Or when editors slow down footage to make it more dramatic and 'cool looking.' There are things that cannot be taken for their face-value.
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Old 2008-09-11, 12:18   Link #1498
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Not to mention the classic staple of smashing through glass panes.

Cheers.
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Old 2008-09-11, 12:25   Link #1499
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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Not to mention the classic staple of smashing through glass panes.

Cheers.
Oh yea. That would hurt, huh? I remember watching the making of Kamen Rider: The First extra where a guard was kicked by Hopper 1 through a glass plane. They had to rig it to shatter just before he hit to guarantee it would shatter and avoid excessive injury to the stuntman. Even then they had paramedics standing by because it was to be one of the more dangerous stunts in the film. With all the precautions the stuntman still received numerous lacerations from the glass shards though thankfully nothing serious.
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Old 2008-09-11, 12:50   Link #1500
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Ark, lemme put it this way.

I've been in situations where I've formed elaborate theories as to what was going on in a show, parsing the dialogue and the observed phenomena really closely. Sometimes the events were such that I was able to form multiple theories. In at least one case, it was such that certain pieces of dialogue would need to come out subtly differently depending on which of the various interpretations was the one the authors had in mind. Because of the situation, that is, that I was getting paid to do this, I actually had the opportunity to forward both interpretations to the writers of the show, and actually ask them "so which one is more correct?"

I got back "durrrr... it looked cool." (Name of the series withheld to protect the guilty, heh.)

So part of that's just me being jaded. I've worked on lots of shows that just didn't have a lot of script consistency, where the plot holes were big enough to drive trucks through. I've worked on other shows that looked like they were pretty well constructed, but weren't; you could rationalize something coherent pretty easily, but it wasn't what the authors had in mind when they were putting together the show. I worked on Eva TWICE, about which I'm sure I need say nothing further.

So to a certain degree, I'm completely primed and ready to say "okay, we've reached the limit of successful interpretation on this script." Nanoha hit that particular limit before Strikers rolled around, and Strikers never really had a good interpretation that you could reconcile with "reality" and with the content of the show.

But that's okay! I enjoyed the hell out of Nanoha and A's, and I still had a good time with Strikers. I've got Rein and Subaru figures on the desk here, even Mom likes where I have Nanoha perched on the mantle (ironically, pointing RH at an old map of the world...) I have no idea where Vita and Signum and Hayate will go when they arrive, but I'm sure I'll find somewhere. Hell, if you saw the size of the discount I gave for Nanoha subtitles... now there's the love, man. ;p

When you need to rationalize things instead of accept 'em as inconsistent, that's not suspending disbelief - you're specifically looking for a way to believe it. That's not always correct, especially in anime, where much is stylized. The "slow bullet" example is a good one. Slowing down projectiles so that you can "see" them, so that the viewer understands that there's lead flying there, is a good visual shorthand. The fact that real bullets are faster is not intended to signal that these are somehow "slow bullets". No, they're normal bullets, it's just that your viewpoint is not that of a stop-motion camera, but a dramatic observer...
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