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Old 2008-09-11, 14:46   Link #1501
Vivio Testarossa
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I'll actually agree here, and I do watch a lot of anime this way. I chase down the Friday episodes of Strike Witches and Zettai Karen Children, as well as H-games ... etc, in a similar fashion.

However, these are different in that I don't discuss them. I believe that a casual attitude to making your mental model of worlds is OK ... unless you start to extrapolate. If you discuss things like "So how far can the protagonist in Anime X shoot" or write FanFic on Anime Y, you must make an effort to make an accurate mental model of what's going on. And that's where all the Analysis comes in.

If nothing else, it'll help you greatly when someone challenges your answer. Let's face it, most FanFic writers won't like being told that their depiction of Canon Character X has no resemblance to his real personality, or maybe that the combat depicted had no resemblance to how combat is handled in the series. How to avoid such problems, or at least to change the parameters from a position of knowledge? Analysis. Disciplined SoD analysis - eat the veggies too.
.
That's exactly why I don't write fanfiction... that and the fact that I'm not real good at writing... all of them would be filled with "Mary sues".
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Old 2008-09-12, 00:58   Link #1502
Kikaifan
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Oh, drawing the line right is one of the arts of SoD analysis. But just because it is hard doesn't mean one shouldn't make an effort.
So long as we're clear that your conclusions are not inherently any more meaningful than those of anyone else here to a person who has not accepted your position that the material should be interpreted in a way that maximizes familiarity and measurability and defends the integrity of the most 'rigorous' measurements against any subsequent appearance of contradiction.

SoD is definitely useful for those who want to use it. It is not in any way 'correct.'
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Old 2008-09-12, 04:19   Link #1503
Keroko
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Entirely agree. But how can we determine the premises of a work of fiction? By observation and taking into account all information, not just those that are convenient. That bullets move at 100m/s may well be one of the detailed premises of that work of fiction. Maybe Hero's ability to block the bullets is only there because of the fact that "bullets" in that universe move at 100m/s instead of 300m/s+. That bullets move at only 100m/s is a fantastic thought, but isn't SoD about choking it down and working with it anyway?
So you alter the entire workings of a world for a single scene? I do wonder what happens when you watch an anime that displays both 'normal speed' bullets and 'slow speed' bullets depending on the scene in question? And do note, the only thing slowing in this scene are the bullets.

You seem to take the "accept as true the premises of a work of fiction, even if they are fantastic or impossible." as a sign that SoD means that we should scientifically explain it. It doesn't. It means what it says: Accept as true the premises of a work of fiction. There is no rationalizing, no scientific explanations, nothing. Reviving the dead is impossible, but if a work of fiction does this, we accept it is true. We don't rationalize it, we simply accept it. The only exception is when such an explanation is given by the work of fiction itself, because in this case it becomes part of the premises, and thus falls under SoD. Any explanation made outside the premises of the series is mere conjecture, and when those explanations contradict the source material, it is a failure of SoD.

In this case the Barrier Jackets were an explanation given to us by the source material, thus they become the 'natural' explanation for the events in which characters survive actions they should not have, and according to SoD, are to be accepted as true, even if they are fantastic or impossible. Rejecting the workings of source material on the base that it is physically not possible is a failure of SoD, because you have failed to accept the Barrier Jackets as being true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, what you suspended was your own observation. You allowed your own prejudices to block out what you observed.

This case is actually more asinine than normal because we know there are a number of ways that Slow-Mode is explicitly portrayed.
*sigh* Allright, maybe an observation that doesn't involve calculations will get the message through. Let's take Superman. Superman hides his identity from the world by simply donning a pair of glasses, conservative clothing, and acting in a "mild-mannered" fashion. Not only is the disguise so thin as to be ridiculous, but also in the TV series, Adventures of Superman, this absurdity was carried to an extreme. Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen constantly suspected Clark Kent of being Superman, yet when obvious evidence was right in their faces — such as times when Clark was missing his glasses — they never saw the resemblance.

Applying Suspension of Disbelief here, we simply accept that Superman's disguise works, even though we as the audience can all clearly see that it a ridiculous disguise.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
And why not? He has made the decision, and it has consequences.
Because, as you say, it is a 'careless' decision, not an objective one.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
(Besides, you really have no clue he did not take great care in it).
Concidering I have graduated from a 4 year education including animation, worked in the business as part of my education, have more then 30 former classmates in the same education, have met some of their colleagues in the business, and have talked about this with the teachers from my education, I think I can safely say I am a little bit more experienced in the comings and goings of animation then most people here.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Not so fast. Based on the above, it is probably justifiable to make an initial Hypothesis with the above. Immediately, the hypothesis runs into problems with physics, which are observed to be at least mostly in effect. Then we have observations that they cannot protect against a lower force.

Conclusion: Barrier Jacket is almost certainly not what protected Cast Member.
See, this is where you fail to suspend your disbelief. Your disbelief in this case is that it is physically not possible for the Barrier Jacket to safe the member of the cast. If you were to apply Suspension of Disbelief, you would Suspend the Disbelief that this is physically not possible, and simply accept it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, that's not analysis at all. You conveniently forgot all other alternatives (obviously, an alternative that violates fewer physical principles will have a huge advantage) and even ignored Observations inconvenient to you. You didn't even try to rationalize them away.
SoD means not scientifically rationalizing, simply accepting. I've told you this several times.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Here's what you do. You accept that there seems to be sound in space, and you look for possible explanations, not all of which actually lead to sound being actually in space.
No, that is acknowledging your disbelief of the situation, not suspending it.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
1) Tea has been through a 3 month boot camp, not a course in shield engineering.
One year, actually. Teana has personal experience with the Auto Barrier. I'll trust her word that it works any day.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Why is that. If anything, I am suspending belief better than you, because you obviously don't think there might be a reasonable answer to this, while I'm trying.
Ah, and here we come to the core of the matter. SoD is not about suspending belief, it is about suspending disbelief. It is about suspending your realization that this can't possibly happen, and go with the explanation the source gives you, if any.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Frankly, Vita's aggressiveness is over-rated. She's easily irritated, true, but there were times when she demonstrated more judgment and prudence than Signum. For example, she decided to try and retreat in Ep7 A's and concentrate mass against Fate rather than engage in a undecided battle and lose time and energy. Compare that to Signum, who, instead of taking a small amount of time to systematically eliminating the barrier mages and thus securing a free path or replacing it with their own barrier, decided to charge in. Only Graham's machinations allowed them to escape that one
Ironically this only serves to prove ADV's point all the more. Why did the more tactically leveled Vita wait for Nanoha to activate her defences for an extended period of time?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Keroko gives a good example of what's a definite fail with his Bullet example. Note how he just pretends the bullet's velocity was never on the screen. Of course it was. But he insists in his opinion it isn't the author's intent, and that's that for a literary type. You can see how convenient it is to invalidate anything that does not meet your desires that way.
Personal attacks aside, you once again completely missed the point. In the example of the hero under fire, bullet speed is 'slowed' visually to make the bullet visible and increase the sense of tension. The audience can now see that the hero is almost being grazed by the flying lead. This does not mean that bullet speed in the world of the anime in question is different from the norm, just that in the scene the speed of bullets was slowed to achieve a desired reaction from the audience. In this case the desired reaction is "Wow, he's in real danger! Look at all the bullets, they're almost hitting him!"
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Old 2008-09-12, 08:32   Link #1504
Comartemis
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Quote:
Start by explaining why Scientific = Not Fun.
I can't count the number of arguments you guys have gotten into about things that didn't mean jack shit to me. Bullet speeds? Animation framerates? Movement speeds judged by those animation framerates? Yawn. Not fun. Get back to the explosions and the magical lolis and leave the science for the people who care about that stuff. I'll make judgments on those less important things if the need ever comes up, and when they do they'll be simple interpretations, not involved calculations like what you insist on working with.

Quote:
However, Teana never mentioned how effective it was going to be, or its limits. See my answer to Keroko - without quantification, a quality only statement has no references.
Again, she obviously expects it to protect her in the event of an accident. If it was only going to keep her from scraping her knee and not from busting her head open she'd wear more protective gear or enhance the field.

You ask me why Scientific = Not Fun, ark, but from my perspective I can't figure out for the life of me how you could possibly be having fun by nitpicking at the smallest, most insignificant details.
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Old 2008-09-12, 09:58   Link #1505
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
I can't count the number of arguments you guys have gotten into about things that didn't mean jack shit to me. Bullet speeds? Animation framerates? Movement speeds judged by those animation framerates? Yawn. Not fun. Get back to the explosions and the magical lolis and leave the science for the people who care about that stuff. I'll make judgments on those less important things if the need ever comes up, and when they do they'll be simple interpretations, not involved calculations like what you insist on working with.
In other words, you'll make it without taking advantage of all the information that's available to you? That'll leave you in a very weak position if someone came to challenge you. And while of course you could be tough and say "It is my FanFic and I'll write it as I please", I'm sure not many people are truly happy to hear that they are badly wrong in interpreting a world, with evidence to prove it.

Quote:
Again, she obviously expects it to protect her in the event of an accident. If it was only going to keep her from scraping her knee and not from busting her head open she'd wear more protective gear or enhance the field.
From what kind of accident? The whole spectrum? Accidents that are under 10km/h? Maybe she knows it isn't all that protective but just doesn't want to wear a helmet - god knows there are plenty of people on Earth who prefer no helmet, and they don't have Auto Barriers.

Why do you assume the field is easily enhancable. And IIRC, she was supposed to be wearing a helmet but declined. Considering that helmets are not exactly the most comfortable things, I think it'd be reasonable to assume that if barriers were more effective, not many people will bother with helmets. This tells me a lot about them too.

Quote:
You ask me why Scientific = Not Fun, ark, but from my perspective I can't figure out for the life of me how you could possibly be having fun by nitpicking at the smallest, most insignificant details.
Here's the fun. Using your brain instead of turning it off. Testing out interpretations. Entering into debates. Seeing possibility where others see doom.
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Old 2008-09-12, 10:17   Link #1506
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In other words, you'll make it without taking advantage of all the information that's available to you?
I already do that by ignoring most of the material in the Sound Stages. And to answer your question, yes I will. Because I'm not willing to turn into a guy like you who obsesses over every little insignificant detail and turns it into "evidence" that such and such is this way or that way. I could care less that x number of animation frames indicates that Signum flies at 200 mph on average or whatever; she flies, and she probably flies a good deal faster than she could run the same distance. That's enough detail for me.

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That'll leave you in a very weak position if someone came to challenge you. And while of course you could be tough and say "It is my FanFic and I'll write it as I please", I'm sure not many people are truly happy to hear that they are badly wrong in interpreting a world, with evidence to prove it.
You think I care what some guy thinks about a spell's rate of movement or how fast a mage can fly? Hell, you think other people care about those things and not, say, just enjoying the show? The nitty-gritty specific details of the animation and all that junk do not mean anything to me, and I would be surprised if they mattered to anyone besides yourself, ark.

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Here's the fun. Using your brain instead of turning it off. Testing out interpretations. Entering into debates. Seeing possibility where others see doom.
I can do all those things without being anal retentive, thanks.
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Old 2008-09-12, 10:36   Link #1507
Nya~n
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please, arkhangelsk, you're making this a very painful thread to visit. I'd no sooner return mull through the 300-Legion War than to go through this again.

On a separate topic, another Vivio-centric question from me - what were those skills that Vivio was using in the Cradle, and from who did she steal those skills from?
Didn't know whether to post this question here or the Q&A thread. Decided on this thread in any case

edit: thanks Keroko, once again!

Last edited by Nya~n; 2008-09-13 at 01:42.
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Old 2008-09-12, 10:51   Link #1508
Keroko
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*zooms in the thread faster then Fate in Sonic Form*

Did I hear a Vivio-centric question?



Apparently Vivio has the ability to leech spells from people she is spending a lot of time with in a similar way Yami no Sho could, considering she has learned and converted spells from both Nanoha and Fate.
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Old 2008-09-12, 10:54   Link #1509
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
So you alter the entire workings of a world for a single scene?
Coming from a man who takes the first opportunity to throw physics out the window, I find the hypocrisy amusing.

That aside, changing the speed of a bullet hardly means throwing out the physical workings of a world, just an abandonment of a stereotype I had about bullet-like projectiles as being inapplicable to the world.

Quote:
I do wonder what happens when you watch an anime that displays both 'normal speed' bullets and 'slow speed' bullets depending on the scene in question? And do note, the only thing slowing in this scene are the bullets.
Depending on the details, one of the following possibilities (there are more, I'm just doing this fast):
1) The slow speed scene is true and the high speed scene is accelerated.
2) Vice versa.
3) There are fast and slow bullets in this world, coming from different guns.

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You seem to take the "accept as true the premises of a work of fiction, even if they are fantastic or impossible." as a sign that SoD means that we should scientifically explain it. It doesn't. It means what it says: Accept as true the premises of a work of fiction. There is no rationalizing, no scientific explanations, nothing. Reviving the dead is impossible, but if a work of fiction does this, we accept it is true. We don't rationalize it, we simply accept it. The only exception is when such an explanation is given by the work of fiction itself, because in this case it becomes part of the premises, and thus falls under SoD. Any explanation made outside the premises of the series is mere conjecture, and when those explanations contradict the source material, it is a failure of SoD.
ROFTLMAO. You've almost gotten SoD right, until you substituted Premises (which is an interpreted thing) for Observations. All we really have are Observations. Even a source within the fiction is just that. We observed that a source gave such and such an opinion on a particular matter. It is Interpretation that says it is, for example, true, false, or every gradation in between, let alone assigning yet more meanings to it.

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In this case the Barrier Jackets were an explanation given to us by the source material,
Wrong. You just lazily bridged the links in a way convenient to yourself. The source just claims it gives protection. From that, you added that The protection is of adequate magnitude to defend against crashing into the building at the speed depicted. (Where did that come from?)

I find it utterly amazing how you can arrogantly fantasize details like this out of nowhere when it comes to dialogue and then use them in your "analysis", but delete from analysis undesirable details from the visuals. You can conclude 2 is true using reasoning, but it is not because it was even stated in the source.

At least I still stick to details that are actually drawn on the cel.

Quote:
*sigh* Allright, maybe an observation that doesn't involve calculations will get the message through. Let's take Superman. Superman hides his identity from the world by simply donning a pair of glasses, conservative clothing, and acting in a "mild-mannered" fashion. Not only is the disguise so thin as to be ridiculous, but also in the TV series, Adventures of Superman, this absurdity was carried to an extreme. Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen constantly suspected Clark Kent of being Superman, yet when obvious evidence was right in their faces such as times when Clark was missing his glasses they never saw the resemblance.

Applying Suspension of Disbelief here, we simply accept that Superman's disguise works, even though we as the audience can all clearly see that it a ridiculous disguise.
Yes, we observe that it works and we won't say it didn't. However, how it works can be very important as well.
Spoiler for Examples:


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Because, as you say, it is a 'careless' decision, not an objective one.
Oh, how easy would life be if your "careless" decisions don't have the same potential effects as your considered ones...

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Concidering I have graduated from a 4 year education including animation, worked in the business as part of my education, have more then 30 former classmates in the same education, have met some of their colleagues in the business, and have talked about this with the teachers from my education, I think I can safely say I am a little bit more experienced in the comings and goings of animation then most people here.
And all this, put together, doesn't tell you what he was thinking as he made the scene. In fact, given the way you are thinking, there will be no way he can express visually that bullets in his world are slow even if he wants to, since you will reject any attempt to do so as "careless" decisions that should be ignored.

Quote:
See, this is where you fail to suspend your disbelief. Your disbelief in this case is that it is physically not possible for the Barrier Jacket to safe the member of the cast. If you were to apply Suspension of Disbelief, you would Suspend the Disbelief that this is physically not possible, and simply accept it.
I can't believe I have to eat this from a guy who can't even suspend disbelief on the point that the source doesn't even say that. It did not say "The Barrier Jacket saved Fate from the building", no? It said "Barrier Jackets give protection". How the latter turned into "Barrier Jackets give out enough protection to save people who fly at buildings at velocities above or equal to the velocity depicted in that scene where Fate crashed into a building, and was indeed the one and only agent that saved Fate when she crashed into that building" is totally unclear.

You see how much was added by your imagination in its cognitive dissonance, and I'm the guy not facing up to MGLN reality?

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No, that is acknowledging your disbelief of the situation, not suspending it.
So, in such a case, what would be your mental model of that world?

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One year, actually. Teana has personal experience with the Auto Barrier. I'll trust her word that it works any day.
I could have sworn it was three months. Ah well. Even a year won't make her a expert on Barrier Dynamics.

Still, according to the principle of maximum data retention, I'll take her word it'll work. I won't assign quantities that were never stated.

By the way, "Personal Experience" with the Auto Barrier on the Motorcycle? How many motorbike accidents has Teana been in?

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Ironically this only serves to prove ADV's point all the more. Why did the more tactically leveled Vita wait for Nanoha to activate her defences for an extended period of time?
Wait. So, first it was Vita will try to preempt because she's rash, and now it is Vita will try to preempt because she's calm?

Quote:
In the example of the hero under fire, bullet speed is 'slowed' visually to make the bullet visible and increase the sense of tension. The audience can now see that the hero is almost being grazed by the flying lead. This does not mean that bullet speed in the world of the anime in question is different from the norm, just that in the scene the speed of bullets was slowed to achieve a desired reaction from the audience. In this case the desired reaction is "Wow, he's in real danger! Look at all the bullets, they're almost hitting him!"
Wait, wait. Up there, you said that this whole bullet slowdown thing was an accident. But now you are saying that he intended to slow down the bullet speed? If he intended to slow the bullet speed, then regardless of his reasons, SoD and literary methods, in this case, should give the same results, the bullets were slow. It was the author's intent. It was also what we saw. Who cares if he did it because he thought it'll make it look cool. He intentionally did it, intentionally paid the piper for it, and all that.
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Old 2008-09-12, 11:01   Link #1510
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*scratches his head*

I see that all this here turned more and more into a discussion of "what is correct SoD".
Well... yeah you wield around Nanoha examples but I somehow fail to see to what this will all lead in the end.
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Old 2008-09-12, 11:07   Link #1511
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
I already do that by ignoring most of the material in the Sound Stages. And to answer your question, yes I will. Because I'm not willing to turn into a guy like you who obsesses over every little insignificant detail and turns it into "evidence" that such and such is this way or that way. I could care less that x number of animation frames indicates that Signum flies at 200 mph on average or whatever; she flies, and she probably flies a good deal faster than she could run the same distance. That's enough detail for me.
OK, if you are happy with that. However, if I tell you that if you look carefully enough, you will conclude that Signum flies at 200mph and runs at say 30, what would best describe your attitude:

A: Sure, whatever, Ark. I might even keep that vaguely in mind when I write my FanFic.
B: No, it can't be! Signum must be able to fly at supersonic speeds. I've basically only got my gut feeling in comparison to your anal-retentive calculations but you are wrong!

I'm very happy to accept A. B is a little too much to leave unchallenged. All in good fun, of course, but still too much to take sitting down.
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Old 2008-09-12, 11:16   Link #1512
Comartemis
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All in good fun, of course, but still too much to take sitting down.
Funny, I could say exactly the same thing about your insistence that your interpretation of the series is the only correct one because of your beloved SoD. I maintain that ordinary people do not care about frame rates and superficial nonsense of that nature, and I do not anticipate anyone to seriously challenge some minor detail like Signum's maximum velocity.

Also, your 'B' option should end in "Keep your anal-retentive calculations to yourself and let me operate on my own interpretation instead of insisting I'm wrong for not caring about the calculations."
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Old 2008-09-12, 12:37   Link #1513
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Ark, lemme put it this way.

I've been in situations where I've formed elaborate theories as to what was going on in a show, parsing the dialogue and the observed phenomena really closely.
Commendable. If only more people can be like you...

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Sometimes the events were such that I was able to form multiple theories.
That does happen.

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In at least one case, it was such that certain pieces of dialogue would need to come out subtly differently depending on which of the various interpretations was the one the authors had in mind. Because of the situation, that is, that I was getting paid to do this, I actually had the opportunity to forward both interpretations to the writers of the show, and actually ask them "so which one is more correct?"

I got back "durrrr... it looked cool." (Name of the series withheld to protect the guilty, heh.)
Well, that happens too. Presumably, that means you got to define a small piece of the story. I hope you used it well. Did you tell them which interpretation you were taking, and some thoughts on the consequences of that interpretation?

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But that's okay! I enjoyed the hell out of Nanoha and A's, and I still had a good time with Strikers. I've got Rein and Subaru figures on the desk here, even Mom likes where I have Nanoha perched on the mantle (ironically, pointing RH at an old map of the world...) I have no idea where Vita and Signum and Hayate will go when they arrive, but I'm sure I'll find somewhere. Hell, if you saw the size of the discount I gave for Nanoha subtitles... now there's the love, man. ;p
I don't keep action figures (personally, I think even the best action figure pales compared to the 2D anime chara they are based on - if I want to watch my fave character I'll just pop in the correct DVD. If I need her to stand still there's always the Pause button...), but I enjoyed all three series too. But in a different way.

It would probably be fair to say that without SoD analysis, I'll have left Nanoha behind as soon as Ep26 rolled over. Maybe even before that, given Ep17, you know... But it was fun to constantly discover new bits about the Nanoverse that aren't obvious on casual, informal observation. To see shallow conclusions turned on more detailed thought. To hash out such detailed thoughts with others that are interested. To know the Nanoverse as a world, not just as a anime. Detailed study of the Nanoverse is probably the biggest of the driving forces keeping it alive for me. The fact a lot of the discoveries pointed to a negative direction (lower ranges, lower powers... etc) is frankly a surprise to me, but I can accept them (and is not acceptance the core of SoD?)
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Old 2008-09-12, 13:48   Link #1514
Keroko
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It would probably be fair to say that without SoD analysis, I'll have left Nanoha behind as soon as Ep26 rolled over. Maybe even before that, given Ep17, you know... But it was fun to constantly discover new bits about the Nanoverse that aren't obvious on casual, informal observation. To see shallow conclusions turned on more detailed thought. To hash out such detailed thoughts with others that are interested. To know the Nanoverse as a world, not just as a anime. Detailed study of the Nanoverse is probably the biggest of the driving forces keeping it alive for me. The fact a lot of the discoveries pointed to a negative direction (lower ranges, lower powers... etc) is frankly a surprise to me, but I can accept them (and is not acceptance the core of SoD?)
Amusingly enough our opinions on this are similar, though we go about it on our own different way. For me making new discoveries is also one of the biggest driving forces, though I liked the series a lot, which is why I have the desire to learn more about it. The difference is that I use booklets and global observations, rather then measurements of distance and speed, because as an editor I have learned that measuring distance and speed in an animation (especially low budget ones) by pixels is inherently inacurate.
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Old 2008-09-12, 14:11   Link #1515
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Those are real-life weapons, so their technotactical characteristics are much more likely to be fixed (unlike an alien weapon). There was no VTL, so a time slowdown is possible.
Sound effect was realtime, howeve, which would tend to argue against a time slowdown.

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Have you considered the possibility I hadn't watched Macross Frontier? Anyway, without having looked at any details (details are very important in SoD analysis; often a small detail is what makes things most clear), it is possible that what you are seeing is some kind of exhaust from the sides of the plane (expendable coolant, perhaps?
I considered the possibility, but surely you'd be able to SoD by descriptions, o Professor of Mathmatical SoD. The scene is as follows: Alto blows up a grunt Vajra and then pulls away, barrel rolling, with vapor trails from his wingtips. There are no exhaust ports on the wingtip edges (what kind of plane has exhaust ports on the wings anyway?).

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In theory, if the oxidant is mixed with the pyrotechnic chemicals, it might be possible to create the glow without external oxygen. Obviously, there is a chemical that we hadn't identified or at least is not in common use in terran tracers. As to why the heck they want to use blue tracers at all, that's a psychological question, but the Soviets used green so I guess blue ain't so bad...
I was actually referring to what chemicals you'd need to make blue tracers, but we'll go with that. Thing is though, according to in-universe data, Macross tracers build upon currect human tracers. Then again, Frontier is set in 2059, so there's 50 years worth of weapons technology to work on.

Incidentally, I've read of an optical illusion where for those on the receiving end of incoming fire, the tracers appear to travel slowly at first, and then speed up as they get closer. Even reality has variable bullet speed.
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SoD analysis is a methodology. Just remember: Assume that real events are being depicted. That generally guides you along the right path. In particular, if you assume real events are depicted, you won't feel so inclined to just throw the Laws of Physics out the window at every turn
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Some shows, however, tend to be better for analysis; take Frontier; a crapload of stuff known about the mecha has been inferred from observation. We know that the VF-25 has G-limits in excess of +20/-10G due to better inertial dampening and the Ex-Gear system, it can carry external weapons and apparntly has internal micromissiles, and the Armored Pack version has 214 micromissiles, while the basic super pack has round 70-odd micromissiles, it goes on and own. This is because the Frontier studio has been very meticulous about this.

Compare it with Nanoha; frankly it's less sensical to analysie visuals too deeply because animators are flawed and will make screwups. Like the vapor trails, which were an animation screwup, or the new micromissiles in Episode 22 are still using the same blast fragmentation effects when they've been stated to be mini dimension eater warheads, which means that they should be using purple wormholes instead.

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LOL. Well, then maybe that just happens to be what they are doing.
Not being Infinity Ward, I have no goddamned clue. I understand however that they used those models because they didn't want to make new skins and figured few gamers would want to circle around, and take a look. (Let's not get into the USMC having blackhawks - they don't, a sea Knight crewchief being a Lieutenant, or mission control orbiting a joint Force Recon/SAS/Spetsnaz mission in a basic plain vanilla blackhawk...
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Old 2008-09-12, 18:09   Link #1516
Nagumo
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... Er... how many pages have you guys burned through now with the "rational vs looks cool" debate thing?

Nanoha... SERIOUS BUSINESS.

In any case, is there any more info on Vivio, Keroko? Like the picture you posted?
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Old 2008-09-12, 19:39   Link #1517
Seraph42
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Wow .... OK, umm... When I was last on here It was Mages = Jet fighters and its now Fiction Vs Reality , so What happened ?

Nagumo's right - SERIOUS BUSINESS

But I do have a Question.
Most likly it was answered but I'm too lazy to go through backlog

Ok in S1 when Nanoha had to come up with the look of her Device and Barrier Jacket she just had to Imagine them (Imagination Land... Sorry) , but in S2 and S3 it made as if they had a set design, like when they were damaged, the cartridge system, and the forwards' devices and jackets.

Just wondering if its one or the other or a combination of both? or maybe I'm just crazy
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Old 2008-09-12, 20:47   Link #1518
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Probably a combination of both. Or more like... there wasn't any reason for Nanoha's barrier jacket to look like anything besides "what she thought it should look like", and they were in a hurry, so they just did it and went with what they got. With the forwards, they were intentionally trying to look somewhat "uniform", and so they set some of the design in advance (maybe all of it, they aren't clear how much exactly.)
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Old 2008-09-13, 05:40   Link #1519
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraph42 View Post
Wow .... OK, umm... When I was last on here It was Mages = Jet fighters and its now Fiction Vs Reality , so What happened ?
Long story short: A disagreement on the method of analysis used.

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Originally Posted by Nagumo View Post
... Er... how many pages have you guys burned through now with the "rational vs looks cool" debate thing?

Nanoha... SERIOUS BUSINESS.

In any case, is there any more info on Vivio, Keroko? Like the picture you posted?
Yes there is, though most of it hasn't been translated yet. If you can translate, please share, I'm anxious to know what they say myself:

Spoiler for Size:
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Old 2008-09-13, 19:37   Link #1520
arkhangelsk
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Broadband connection failed yesterday...

... anyway, first things first, the translations.
http://arkhangelsk.987mb.com/MGLN/mglnsdic/index.html

Done. If someone can tell me whether the links to the pictures work, that'll be most helpful.

Also, if anyone wants something else to be translated, please call.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-09-14 at 04:51. Reason: Finished
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